Belief in Dowsing kills another 125 people

More car bombs went off in Baghdad today, killing 125. I heard this on NPR driving home:

In Parliament, lawmakers demanded to know why the government hasn't improved security after the previous bombings. Hassan al-Shimmery, a member of Parliament from the Fadheela Party, said the government deserves a big share of the blame for the attacks.

He charged that corrupt officials in the security ministries — defense and interior — put personal profit before the safety of the public. Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The "explosive detection devices" are, of coarse, the dowsing rods mentioned here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...useless-bomb-detectors-Britain.html

For most people, belief in pseudoscience gets them a lighter wallet. For these people, belief in pseudoscience got them killed.

- Carl

Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The American experts  statement was “ that he believes “. A believe is not Proof…,.Art

Carl, that is very sad news. But for a supposed scientifically-minded man, your use of words is very poor.

Were there 125 people collectively holding dowsing rods, en masse, that failed to detect a bomb and then got blown up? What a strange spectacle?? Are you sure you have your facts right now Carl? I would say that the guys tasked with detecting the bombs are alive and well and some other poor schmucks are dead. What do you reckon? Not being pedantic but your arguments are laced with emotionalism and very little scientific rigour or intellectual curiosity. If they were useless at detecting bombs, and got through that security line, then why would a lunatic detonate there? Your logic is very strange. Very emotionally blurred, I think.

This is now a bone that you have picked up and are vociferously chewing on.

The Vatican publicly commended a parish priest from Switzerland, Abbé Mermet, for informational dowsing skills (map dowsing, which must be a real curve-ball to you) and this apostolic blessing flew in the face of catholic dogma at the time with regards to so-called witchcraft. Taking the religiosity out of it for a moment, but concentrating purely on the politics of social power, that was an enormous step for adversaries of dowsing to take. The reasons were crystal clear. The man had legendary, long-proven ability to find water and minerals across the world from his table in a small room. He had performed great service for the Church, the world's richest real-estate owner.

Are there scammer dowsers and scammer LRL makers? No doubt! Are there useless metal detectors with tuning controls that make no difference? Undoubtedly. Would we blame metal detecting as an activity for the deaths of soldiers using insufficient quality equipment? No.

In order for your intellect to be respected, one must articulate like an adult, not just with simple generalisms that get none of us anywhere. No thinking sceptic should accept generalisations without first checking for themselves. That's what I have done. I am naturely sceptical in the questioning sense. But not a sceptic. No thank you. More inquisitive than cynical. And that's what the greatest sceptics have been. No doubt we would differ as to who we think are /were the greatest sceptical minds.

I'm off to put my dowsing rods in a locked gun cabinet.....................

Gee Carl….I have an old box of shot gun shells just laying here doing nothing. I took the powder out of one shell and put in my baiting compartment on one of my rods. I had my wife throw a complete shell onto the front yard that is covered with about 6 inches of snow. I had no problem finding that shell except my feet got a little wet. So…My conclusion is  that I can find gun powder with my rods…Art

Additionally Carl, I would like to meet you halfway by saying that many dowsers and LRLers would be sceptical of claims and products that they see. But that refreshing questioning nature does not in and of itself lead to the generalised conclusion that dowsing does not work, that LRLS do not work.

For a glimpse into the views of dowsers in the home country of where the device is manufactured, see http://www.britishdowsers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1649

One quote worth noting from there is the reference to "an article entitled Dowsing for Mines by Keith Chamberlain which was published in Dowsing Today, June 2007, p.19. It describes Keith's experiences in the Royal Engineers clearing mines with a dowsing pendulum in Aden. Eye-popping stuff:

"Keith Chamberlain wrote:Bets were taken on how long we would survive, nobody bet on more than two hours. Worryingly the instructor stayed behind, instead of returning to Headquarters, presumably to give better instruction to the next team after we had departed with a bang.

..
It is really easy to focus when an error can be career ending, and in the first day we cleared 12 mines designed to catch civilians supplying the Army base. This was something that WE were doing, not a machine, us. We had no idea how or why it was working but it was working with a vengeance."

British army engineers are well known for having strong dowsing knowledge. It has been used officially for finding water and also tested in the capacity that you see here, for mine clearing.

No, I don't have a double-blind test for you Carl. Although there's plenty of research on dowsing contained here if you care to chase it up http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html

Yes, the price of those machines is outrageous. That is the real "outrageous" part of the whole story for me. Also worth noting is the fact that the discovery of Saddam in a bolthole was constantly put down to a dowser. That may have ignited passions in superstitious people, which can happen to people in dire times.

That still does not mean we can disparage and discount dowsing, nor LRLs. The proof is in the testing for each of us. I am happy with my results from dowsing and very happy with the proofs I have read. I do not need your fascist big brother hand attempting to hold mine.

Dowsing does not kill people. People kill people. Period.

I'd put more faith in the ads the guys making LRLs have than ANYTHING the media says. (Just my personal opinion)

Now, I"ve got a question. If dowsing doesn't work, Why doesn't it?

Well, I've jumped in and probably started a riot, but all I hear the skeptics say is NO NO NO it doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? If dowsing or witching devices have been in use for hundreds of years wouldn't it seem logical they'd have been thrown out a hundred years ago? Can anyone out there tell me why dowsing devices won't work.

Granted, there are crooks, and bums selling bogus stuff, but isn't that true to everything we buy? Seems there are people selling super duper ring a ding ding detectors that will find the Holy Grail these days. Hmm..... I wonder how many old timers said those new fangled metal detector things couldn't find things in the ground.

In Nam, L rods were used, worked good. Locating water mains when a couple $3000+ locators couldn't worked.
So, please explain why dowsing won't work.

Now, I"ve got a question. If dowsing doesn't work, Why doesn't it?

You may be asking the wrong question.

Why doesn't astrology work?
Why doesn't homeopathy work?
Why doesn't self-levitation work?

They just don't. The "why" list can be infinite, and completely irrelevant.

If dowsing or witching devices have been in use for hundreds of years wouldn't it seem logical they'd have been thrown out a hundred years ago?

As well many other follies. Astrology is still around. So are superstitions.

So, please explain why dowsing won't work.

JREF now has a forum. You might want to try this question over there, and see what you get.

You quoted me, but apparently didn't read my question. Let's try again.

If dowsing doesn't work, why doesn't it work.

You quoted me, but apparently didn't read my question. Let's try again.

If dowsing doesn't work, why doesn't it work.

I read the question, but it's just not answerable. It's like asking, "Why can't I levitate myself?" Or, "Why can't I foretell the winning Power Ball numbers?"

Just cain't.

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work But it doesn't work?

I'm talking strictly dowsing, not astrology or fortune telling etc. Can any of the skeptics out there tell me straight out why dowsing doesn't work?

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work. I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

[Why]

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work

Asking "Why doesn't it work?" is different than asking "Is there evidence it doesn't work?" Yes, there is evidence that it doesn't work. Also, evidence that it doesn't work is not the same as proof that it doesn't work. Don't confuse them.

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work.

I generally suggest that folks start with "Water Witching, USA" by Vogt & Hyman. Ray Hyman has done a lot of research on dowsing. Ellis' "The Divining Rod" is also a good read. A variety of dowsing tests have been performed over the years, and dowsing has not fared very well. The largest, Betz's "Scheunen" test of over 500 experienced dowsers, had results no better than chance. Australia has tracked well drilling results, and dowsers do worse than hydrogeologists.

I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

That's how science works. When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. Always. If someone says, "I can detect a gold coin up to 1 mile away," fine... show me... in a convincing way. Don't ask me to prove you can't do it. That's like me saying, "I can levitate myself... can you provide evidence that I can't do this?"

If you want a really good 10-minute read on pseudoscience, I highly recommend this timeless paper:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf

[Why]

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work

Asking "Why doesn't it work?" is different than asking "Is there evidence it doesn't work?" Yes, there is evidence that it doesn't work. Also, evidence that it doesn't work is not the same as proof that it doesn't work. Don't confuse them.

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work.

I generally suggest that folks start with "Water Witching, USA" by Vogt & Hyman. Ray Hyman has done a lot of research on dowsing. Ellis' "The Divining Rod" is also a good read. A variety of dowsing tests have been performed over the years, and dowsing has not fared very well. The largest, Betz's "Scheunen" test of over 500 experienced dowsers, had results no better than chance. Australia has tracked well drilling results, and dowsers do worse than hydrogeologists.

I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

That's how science works. When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. Always. If someone says, "I can detect a gold coin up to 1 mile away," fine... show me... in a convincing way. Don't ask me to prove you can't do it. That's like me saying, "I can levitate myself... can you provide evidence that I can't do this?"

If you want a really good 10-minute read on pseudoscience, I highly recommend this timeless paper:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf

I would answer Carl in this thread but I feel An Ri Rua, Art, Boogeyman and Dell have done a good job already. Case closed.
Amazing how he still don't know what science is...

More car bombs went off in Baghdad today, killing 125. I heard this on NPR driving home:

In Parliament, lawmakers demanded to know why the government hasn't improved security after the previous bombings. Hassan al-Shimmery, a member of Parliament from the Fadheela Party, said the government deserves a big share of the blame for the attacks.

He charged that corrupt officials in the security ministries — defense and interior — put personal profit before the safety of the public. Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The "explosive detection devices" are, of coarse, the dowsing rods mentioned here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...useless-bomb-detectors-Britain.html

For most people, belief in pseudoscience gets them a lighter wallet. For these people, belief in pseudoscience got them killed.

- Carl

It is indeed a very sad situation, when those in charge of purchasing devices of this nature, turn out to be so ill-informed, and as a result cost so many innocent folks injury or death.

As was so aptly noted in another forum; "This is not just fraud, its culpable involvement in negligent homicide..."

"That’s what junk science does. Its not simply a bit of harmless new age hippy nonsense, as some suppose, it kills people and it does so unnecessarily and without any thought for the consequences.

This is one junk science fraud where action needs to be taken, and taken now before any more people die as a result of British companies selling dowsing rods as so-called explosives detectors."

Anyone who stoops low enough to outwardly defend either the British company responsible for this tragedy, or defends the purchasers of such scams are really showing their own lack of intelligence and support for the act of negligent homicide. 

It looks like a Dowsing  Rod so it has to be a Dowsing Device which everybody know will not work…Good Logic Ted…..Art

It looks like a Dowsing  Rod so it has to be a Dowsing Device which everybody know will not work…Good Logic Ted…..Art

Apparently, "everybody" did not include the soldier (or security personnel) using the device to scan for explosives, which then cost so many lives. 

BEEP…BEEP>>BEEP…Non responsive answer…Try again please ,,Art

I would like to say the skeptics are disingenuous with this phony emotional plea. Fact is the ADE651 has saved many lives and has detected many bombs and cars filled with explosives. So are the skeptics really trying to save lives? I don't think so. I think they are trying to save face by using more phony logic, what I call dirty lawyer tricks.

Must be awfully inconvenient for you to read my posts... but read them you are.  Thanks.

Yeah, I bought a little book the other day called "Dirty Lawyer Tricks".  Funny thing is, it was not a lot different than the stuff I've heard you say.   

Tell you what, Mike.  There are a lot of unexploded ordinance over in those Eastern countries, if I buy you one of those ADxxx LRL bomb locators, will you go over armed just with that contraption and start locating some of those bombs so we can get them out of the ground? 

Might want to make sure your Will is in order before you go. 

I just read the ADE 651 had detected 16,000 bombs including 700 car bombs.

I just read where the ADE651 was responsible for hundreds of deaths and probably thousands of injuries.

I just have to wonder why anyone would try to remove the ADE651 which has been proven effective. Is this some kind of terrorist organization or sympathizers? I realize there are many people who would love to see the Iraq war a failure, but that is way wrong to use it as an excuse to save face.

I thought I was on your Iggy List.      

For you to defend an LRL contraption that is obviously responsible for the tragic loss of many human lives is not borderline sick.  That is sick.   

The world audience would consider the ADE_651 an LRL. But the OP decides that just because he wishes to call it dowsing, that makes it so.

"Discussion is limited to simple, inexpensive devices and techniques.
No electronic LRL discussions please."

Why are the rules not being adhered to?

I worked a lot with explosives in the military and as a cop.  Ain't NO WAY I'm going to put my butt on the line with a couple of "coat hangers" with or without a box of useless electronic parts attached.  About all those rods are good for is old fashioned probing in the dirt.  Not much of a defense against today's IEDs.  But don't let me stop anyone from going out and trying to find REAL explosives not a shotgun shell in the snow.  Just my 2 cents, well maybe no sense to some people.

Comon Carl,

You can do better than that to get some attention.
If dowsing didnt work, we wouldnt be having this discussion.
There would be no Topic to Discuss.

What it really boils down to is skeptics are just so frustrated
that they cant figure out such a simple thing that
they have to lash out with unsubtantiated noise about
something they cannot do , nor understand .

As far as the problem in IRAQ , it is unfortunated that a few
on both sides wanted to exploit dowsing for money,
instead of investing in alot of  Explosive Dogs, and some
much less expensive dowsing rods $10 along with some
MUCH NEEDED instruction .

Carl, I have been dowsing for good reason for thirty years.
I cant convince/show you of something you have predetermined to not work.
But i would trade you an expensive metal detector just to see the
look on your face, when you realize that it does work for you.
Mabe we can get Dell to hold the camera

Take me up on the offer Carl, as i need a metal detector bad, cuz
these darn rods keep finding too many things to dig up .

Seriously this is a sincere offer to teach you how to dowse in one day,
or your metal detector back Im bored and need the challenge.
I know you can do it because ive taught kids to be able to do this well.

Dell , I just wanted to thank you for maintaining a level headed dowsing
presence on this forum .  That goes for all the other dowsers out there too !

geodowser@dowsingworks.com   > back into hiding *poof*

Seriously this is a sincere offer to teach you how to dowse in one day,
or your metal detector back Im bored and need the challenge.

Hi Geo,

I already know how to dowse, as far as intuition and guesswork goes. What I'd like to see is someone who can dowse beyond intuition and guesswork. Someone who can show me, in a simple randomized blind test. If you could do that, I might be impressed. No one else has been able to.

Its Feb 24th and still no video from Dell (or Art).  "Hold the camera"  Heck, they can't FIND the camera !!!!

Hey Carl, Good to hear from you.
My main issue, to be fair is the title of the post you made seemed biased ...
We could discuss this till the sky turns green .....
Im a nuts and bolts type of guy like you, being a building contractor...
Too many times dowsing has saved my as* and or one of my excavating operators...
So i just thought, there might be some way to convert you, since once you
got the hang of it, and have so much so presence on the forums, more folks
would get the hang of it .... folks look up to experts like you.
Its not testing me that would prove it to you but rather you wanting to truly learn
and experience the phenomenon yourself, especially in that you are skeptical for so long.

What would you say to a novice with some ground penetrating radar, that said it didnt
work, because he could not interprete the readout.... you see where i am coming from.
You are your worst enemy, for not having another tool and skill at your disposal that
has proved itself to individuals time after time in real time experience.

Those that really do dowsing well enough to prove themselves, dont have time to
entertain skeptics.... there are plenty that think they can dowse, and probably do ok
but crumble under scrutiny.....  well i gotta run, and find some treasure for a client
in europe..... point me to a machine that can do that.

Im ready when you are ready...  btw i agree with you on the lrl scam artists by the way....
the prices should be way lower and indicate that they are just fancy dowsing rods.
they do work as single dowsing rods tho....   geodowser

Seriously this is a sincere offer to teach you how to dowse in one day,
or your metal detector back Im bored and need the challenge.

Hi Geo,

I already know how to dowse, as far as intuition and guesswork goes. What I'd like to see is someone who can dowse beyond intuition and guesswork. Someone who can show me, in a simple randomized blind test. If you could do that, I might be impressed. No one else has been able to.

Its not testing me that would prove it to you...

Yes, that's exactly what I need to see. I've heard from too many people who said they could dowse, but couldn't do it when I was watching. I'm not going to waste any more time on dowsing until I see someone who, under proper test conditions, can dowse better than intuition and guesswork allow.

If someone tells me they can whistle, and I ask them to show me, they would probably start whistling. Yet when people tell me they can dowse, and I ask them to show me, I usually get alibis as to why they don't want to show me. So if you want to convince me that dowsing Really Works, then just show me that you can dowse. And if it Really Works, a randomized blind test should be a piece of cake.

Carl,

I hear what you are saying, but short of having a good teacher handy, im saying, give it an honest
go..... thats how i learned, .... by doing.  If you want i can help you do your own blind test.
Good dowsers dont feel the have to prove anything, rather help those who are not hopelessly
skeptical....  i was at first when i saw it done, so i went home and tried it myself, and by
golly it worked and accurately.... i am a technician, and nothing short of exact cuts it for me !

Try and find paper money  caches in pvc pipe containers in the ground with a metal detector...
If i had some extra cash from all the things if found from dowsing i would fly over today,
show you how its done, and pick up some fancy equipment..... the truth is.... the things i find
mostly are mundane, work related, pipes, cables, septics, and the occassional buried stump....

ive had a chance to read abit and around now on Tnet and it seems alot of ordinary folks are
doing this, and have been shown by tradesmen and in other situations and got the hang of it..

thanx and see you on another thread somewhere next time >  geodowser

ps im looking for a good used Garret GTI 2500 if you see a deal any where.... i have
the two box for it....   geodowser[at]dowsingworks.com

Its not testing me that would prove it to you...

Yes, that's exactly what I need to see. I've heard from too many people who said they could dowse, but couldn't do it when I was watching. I'm not going to waste any more time on dowsing until I see someone who, under proper test conditions, can dowse better than intuition and guesswork allow.

If someone tells me they can whistle, and I ask them to show me, they would probably start whistling. Yet when people tell me they can dowse, and I ask them to show me, I usually get alibis as to why they don't want to show me. So if you want to convince me that dowsing Really Works, then just show me that you can dowse. And if it Really Works, a randomized blind test should be a piece of cake.

As I've said, I've seen too many failed dowsers to take any claims at face value. So, yes, "good" dowsers do have something to prove, if I am to believe they can really dowse. Consider me hopelessly skeptical.

I will give you a free GTI2500 if you can show me you can dowse.

Carl, youre getting me a little excited ..... it would cost me a bit to drive there and back plus lost work, so it would be
and even grand to show you i can, and then would you at least be willing to try it ?  This is a fair offer from you,
but far too gracious, thats an expensive machine.... but i guess [ dowse ] you really are skeptical lol.
What do all those 1000 dowsers do at the convention every year ? ..... reafirm each others madness ?
No, Carl, this is some really cool stuff.

Look next time you are in Missouri, i will really take you up on it, but for that kind of machine you would have to take
some intensive dowsing lessons too....  I have seen very few fail after a few tries.

If we were in the same neighborhood, i would just show you, just for your interest sake and not to prove anything.... its natural.
I am amazed and appreciative of all the dowsing tools and lore you have collected , share and appreciate  btw
Theres a dowser in you somewhere  lol

Say you may learn fast with the land mine experience test ..... you get set in a field of  mines [that are fake]
with a set of dowsing rods and work you way out . 
You know that Louis Matacia did teach the marines to locate tunnels in
vietnam yes ?  I didnt just read that, but I know him.  He is a hard core dowsing marine.

Anyway, aside from proving dowsing , if you have a 2500 and dont have to buy one for the offer
i would be interested in buying it under any terms.... i am way over do on replacing the one i "lost" .
especially since i have the two box for it already....  [start putting money towards it ]

What kind of demonstration would you want ?  Tossing a  half dollar or dollar in a field of dry grass as far as one can throw ?
I have done that blind folded , first try .... I did that, had someone toss, one day i was feeling i should get a handle on
what is possible.

Mabe  i could get a friend to stop by that lives in NC to give you a refresher course in dowsing....mmm  I would rather
show you myself , but only to get you to try it for yourself .

till next time > geodowser in mo  > thanks for the nice offer

As I've said, I've seen too many failed dowsers to take any claims at face value. So, yes, "good" dowsers do have something to prove, if I am to believe they can really dowse. Consider me hopelessly skeptical.

I will give you a free GTI2500 if you can show me you can dowse.

What do all those 1000 dowsers do at the convention every year ? ..... reafirm each others madness ?

Don't know, never been. But I have watched dowsers at treasure shows, and there tends to be a suspension of rationality, replaced by an overwhelming desire to believe.

You know that Louis Matacia did teach the marines to locate tunnels in
vietnam yes ?  I didnt just read that, but I know him.  He is a hard core dowsing marine.

There's also a Fox News video of Matacia and another dowser palming coins and otherwise faking it. I'm not the least bit impressed with him.

Anyway, aside from proving dowsing , if you have a 2500 and dont have to buy one for the offer
i would be interested in buying it under any terms....

I have one in my collection, but it's otherwise not for sale.

What kind of demonstration would you want ?

Randomized-blind, using multiple marked locations.

Mabe  i could get a friend to stop by that lives in NC

I now live in Oregon.

"You know that Louis Matacia did teach the marines to locate tunnels in vietnam yes ?"   I defy you to get a Marine Vet who will testify to that !!!!

"What do all those 1000 dowsers do at the convention every year ? ..... reafirm each others madness ?"  Yup, that seems to be what they do.  Just like the UFO type conventions, or is that Star Trek minus the costumes ?