Pillars and Portraits

I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on Spanish pillar and portrait coins since many of us here appreciate Spanish colonial, shipwreck and pirate coins in general. Plus they evolved from the same mints that began their coinage striking cobs by hand....

Stan

Hey Dread, do you have the auction catalog from the big Rooswijk sale? If not you should probably keep an eye out for a copy....

Stan

Below is the quote from the eBay picks thread.  Just trying to tidy up the forum and continue the discussion over here.

hi again

yep that's me as highest bidder, my interest in pillar 8`s comes from the rooswijk wreck  they are of course very expencive
the oldest on the ship were from 1732 (first year issue for pillar dollar) with f (Felipe Rivas Angulo as the assayer 1732-1733)
it then when to MF 1733-1754 Manuel De Leon and Antonio De la Pena y Flores the Rooswijk coins weree estimated to be 75% pillar dollars and 25% cobs (according to Ernie Richards in his book: Shipwrecks and their coins vol 4 the 1740 Dutch East indiaman rooswijk)

anywho enough for now
dread

Dread, what do you think of my Pillar Dollar that I posted here? http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,300091.0.html

very nice 8, for a pillar to spend 228 years on the wreck and be in that condition wow!
your a lucky guy what did you pay for it if you dont mind me asking?
i am not 100% sure but but did the Hollandia Vliegenthart and Rooswijk all come form the same ship yard or were in fact sister ships?

Just to help kick of this thread a few screw press Ebay picks....

Pretty little 2 reale....
http://cgi.ebay.com/MEXICO-UNDER-SP...740-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ260561427729

Obviously a wreck coin, but not advertised as such....
http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-U-S-COLONIA...S-SILVER-RARE_W0QQitemZ130371076421

If you can't afford the real thing. Note seller location....
http://cgi.ebay.com/Replica-Spain-8...eales-1741-MF_W0QQitemZ380211169050

Which is the mint mark on this portrait coin?
http://cgi.ebay.com/INDIAN-HEAD-CEN...etal-Detector_W0QQitemZ260561094367

How about an "official" pendant....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1740-MEXICO-8-R...ICIAL-PENDANT_W0QQitemZ350321248953

Stan

hi all
found some Rooswijk pillar coins
first is a 4 reales a bit worn buy the sea
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...994583&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

the second is in very good condition and the price to match also a "4"
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...427301&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

also has 5 cobs up for grabs

a nice non sea salvaged "8"
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI...108259&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Hi Guys, My favorite is the Pillar dollar, I think it is a work of art. Beautifully made with anti fraud features just like your credit card
The Bust or Portrait dollar is not one of my favorites, It was not to flattering for the king. My next favorite is the US silver dollar, I love the American
eagle, I have one dated 1880.
Here is my Pillar and Portrait dollars.
Sam

Very nice Pillar, Sam.  I agree with you, the Portrait was not at all flattering to the King.   

Here is my Pillar and Portrait dollars.
Sam

Sam, that thing is too perfect. You sure it isn't Chinese?   

Stan

Does this mount hurt the value?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Spanish-Ho...-8-Reale-Coin_W0QQitemZ360239873253

Strange assortment. I wonder if the coins were in the "leader" bag?....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ACIENT-TREASURE...IPWRECK-COINS_W0QQitemZ300402614321

Stan

Thanks Diver Down, I like yours as well, great condition for ship wreck.
Stan, only the box it came in. Stan which dates are more valuable in Pillar dollars.
Sam

Stan, only the box it came in. Stan which dates are more valuable in Pillar dollars.
Sam

1732 is the first year of milled production and the holy grail of Mexican issues. Most of the known examples were recovered from the 1733 fleet wrecks in the upper Florida Keys. Milled coinage was subsequently produced at six other mints beginning in the following years: Lima (1751), Santiago (1751), Guatemala (1754), Bogata (1759),  Potosi (1767), and Popayan (1769).  According to Sedwick "The pillar dollars of Santiago (Chile) are extremely rare and those of Popayan (Columbia, minted only one year) are probably fictional". There are probably some rare issue dates at the other mints that maybe someone else can comment on. In 1772 the pillar design was replaced by the bust (ugly) design.

Stan

Nice little guide on pillar fakes by a reputable seller from Austria....
http://reviews.ebay.com/Fake-8-Real...oid-them_W0QQugidZ10000000009793708

Stan

Baby pillar....
http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-US-COINS-17...AR-1-2-REALES_W0QQitemZ400106154475

Stan

Colonial Coinage of Spanish America ( Source,  Standard catalog of world Coins )
The pillar dollar, perhaps the most popular and arguably the most beautiful of all Spanish colonial coinage, is reminiscent of the pillars-and-waves cobs in that it bears pillars above waves on the reverse.
Between the pillars, however,  are two globes, representing the Old world and the New World, with the motto VTRAQUE VNUM ("and we are one") in the
legend.
The obverse, as on the cobs, bears the arms of Castile and Leon, but this time in a crowned shield. The pillar dollar was unique to the Spanish colonies but gained worldwide acceptance - a true "trade dollar" that was even legal tender in the early United States until 1857.
Three new mints began operation in the pillar-dollar era: Guatemala; Santiago, Chile; and Popayan, Colombia. Guatemala, however, apparently had the
pillar-dollar dies (and bust-type dies in the gold) but not the apparatus, as the Guatemala issues from 1733-1753 were all handmade and crude and
therefore are considered cobs.
The pillar dollars of Santiago are extremely rare, and those of popayan are probably fictional.
Sam

Pretty cool. I like mine better though. I'll try to post it soon....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Coin-Art-18th-C...eales-Pendant_W0QQitemZ200456445396

Somebody is good with a hack saw!

Stan

hi all i have 2 portraits
the first is 1797,Carrolus the 4th,mexico mint,assayer F.M

the second is a 1783,Carrolus the 3rd,cant read mint,assayer F
from the wreck of the El Cazador

Pretty cool. I like mine better though. I'll try to post it soon....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Coin-Art-18th-C...eales-Pendant_W0QQitemZ200456445396

Somebody is good with a hack saw!

Stan

OK, finally got around to it. Here is mine....

Stan

"We will do our upmost (sic) to solve the problem and give you a satisfying answer."....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1733-FINE-PILLL...ALES-FERNANDO-VI-COIN-/170496561473

Like "Sorry dude, you got screwed"?

Stan

Stan;
That's a beauty; thanks for posting.
Don....

This one looks interesting....auction ending in 2 days....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1780-SPANISH-CO..._Individual&hash=item335dbdf59f

Wayne

This one looks interesting....auction ending in 2 days....

http://cgi.ebay.com/1780-SPANISH-CO..._Individual&hash=item335dbdf59f

Wayne

Pedigreed to well known collector. Sedwick sold a lot of his coins recently through auction, so it may have come through him. Seems like the current bids are way low, but don't have any idea of the value. Maybe someone else can comment....

Stan

What happened to 99 cents with no reserve? Might have been a good deal for Hong Kong repros....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1766-5-overdate...s-MoMF-PCGS-XF45-Rare-/320546894196

Chinese fakes starting a little cheaper....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1736-MEXICO-SPA...S-III-8-REALES-SILVER-/170498422284

Stan

Yikes!  Ebay is really getting to be a scary place to sift through authenticity. There seems to be more counterfeits than I can ever remember.  Too bad that when a great coin comes along....they go for a major premium. The days of finding that "diamond in the rough" are rapidly disappearing and looking for that great find is not like the days of going to the local coin show and finding a treasure for a fraction of its' worth.

I can guarantee you that many of the readers of this thread, as well as the "Ebay Picks" thread, are quite grateful for this type of information that is supplied to them. Unless you really know what to look for....investing in Pillars and Cobs can be a real mine field. No telling how much this information has saved collectors from bad "investments".

Keep up the good work!  

Wayne

Thanks Wayne. Here is another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1758-MEXICO-SPA...-8-REALES-SILVER-COIN-/270591803409

Some clues....

* Edge of coin is not right (Google around to find correct look)...
* Non-uniform strike depth. Some areas are razor sharp, others look washed out
* Chinese seller (no offense intended)
* Only 1 feedback - This seller was the buyer, making a purchase from another Chinese seller with the word "honesty" in his Ebay name
* "My coin is absolute true! The buyer can trust to bid!If there is any problem, the buyer can send back the coin to me!But the buyer have to pay freight!" - OK, great, so what does the seller have to lose? He is out essentially nothing if the coin is returned. If the buyer keeps it he cashes in.

Stan

Looks nothing like the real thing....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1743-Mexican-8-Reales-Reproduction-/390208256244

Stan

Stan,

Thanks for the post. Here is a chance to make our voice heard:
I need to look deeper into this group, but I think ebay would like us to police junk in this area of expertise...I really think that we should be proactive and see what happens:

http://groups.ebay.com/forum/Ebay-Numismatic-Seller/Welcome/300013802

Maybe we could get a "specialized" group for Cobs and Pillars collectors together and possibly sign up as a group with the contention that we study these coins. I merely mean that this group (on Tnet) studies and contributes to this area...and if you are interested "sign up". All communications are held in the strictest of confidence, once accepted into this group of ebay monitors. This could be as easy as a "cc: of our opinions to the proper authorities on Ebay that we have posted here on TNet". The reason I say this, is that there appears to be 1500+ dealers and collectors that are signed on to do these evaluations of ebay dealers in general. I am not really sure if Ebay is counting the commissions or actually listening...I hope they really care.  I am sure that 95% of the Ebay panel generalizes their expertise and knows very little about these coins. What do you all think? Should we keep this to ourselves or share it?

This concept could certainly be used in other areas of "expertise" with the numismatic and relic collectors on TNet. It is one thing to share our knowledge among ourselves, and another to share this outside of this little realm.

Anyone who reads my posts on "X-Marks The Spot" knows my feelings. I like sharing knowledge with others. In the long run it benefits all of our readers and furthers the knowledge of our interests.

I am the "eternal optimist"...

goldcoastwayne

Thanks Wayne. I sent a join request that just said....

"Collector and occasional seller of Spanish Colonial cob coins. Wish to share views and monitor the spread of fraudulent coins. Thank you, Stan"

As you probably know you can't read the posts unless you have been accepted into the group. I'll comment further after I check it out. Until then, I am somewhat hesitant.

Thanks for bringing the idea forward.

Stan

Thanks Stan. I have likewise signed up and am awaiting a response. Let's see what happens.

Wayne

Porosity + no return policy = probable fake.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1747-MF-4-REALES-CROWNED-GLOBES-/170500888727

Stan

Porosity + no return policy = probable fake.....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1747-MF-4-REALES-CROWNED-GLOBES-/170500888727

Stan

I agree with you. I often think when I am looking at an Ebay offer why the seller doesn't offer more information. If you think you have a "great" coin you would post the weight and even a view of the side edge of the coin. Remember that beautiful pedigreed Pillar that I posted? That is a perfect example of the information that we should be looking for when buying a great coin:

Wayne

Heck of a cutting job....
http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Bits-Piece-8-...-Silver-Pillar-Dollar-/270595326715

Stan

Hope this wouldn't fool ya....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1743-Mexican-8-Reales-Reproduction-/310229632807

Stan

Heres a pillar type I found. A bit knicked up, almost look like chopmarks.

Both fake. 1765 should be easy for anyone to pick out. Note all the porosity and non-reeded edge....
http://cgi.ebay.com/PILLLAR-8-REALE...3-1765-LIMA-EXTREMELY-/170506789278

Stan

Thanks for pointing these out Stan. 

Wayne

What happened to 99 cents with no reserve? Might have been a good deal for Hong Kong repros....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1766-5-overdate...s-MoMF-PCGS-XF45-Rare-/320546894196

Chinese fakes starting a little cheaper....
http://cgi.ebay.com/1736-MEXICO-SPA...S-III-8-REALES-SILVER-/170498422284

Stan

That Chinese fake went for $73 bucks!   I wonder if it sticks to a magnet?

The seller is from China.

That figures.......   But you know what? Ebay is getting their commission...

Wayne

That figures.......   But you know what? Ebay is getting their commission...

Wayne

It amazes me that people will still buy collectibles from China...

Hey maybe this ones not fake.

The fake always costs more than the genuine article. The fake plus the genuine one.

It amazes me that people will still buy collectibles from China...

Hey maybe this ones not fake.

Its a fake as a 3 dollar bill.  Ill bet a magnet will stick to it.