Northeast Florida Symposium of Maritime Archeology 3/17 - 3/20

FYI, there will be plenty of presentations that are free to the public.  If anyone is in the area and are interested, there is some interesting topics/presentations. 

And it would have been more meaningful to provide a link.  http://www.staugustinelighthouse.co.../3172010_fourth_annual_northeas.php

There is one glaring omission. One of our country's leading marine archeologists on colonial era shipwrecks, Jim Sinclair, lives 1 block from the St. Augustine lighthouse and was not invited to be a guest speaker. In fact, LAMP has never invited him to speak at any function, although Jim has lived there for nearly 10 years.

What a damn shame.

Tom

Again,  The rats are guarding the cheese!

But, the good news is biblical!!!!

Look what continually happens to the lamb
in the Old Testament......    He gets slaughtered...

These LAMB folks are more like the "fatted calf" living off the public
coffers - holding themselves up for praise and worship....

Jim should count himself proud that he isn't recornized as one of them

I'll paying a visit tomorrow --lol --wonder how warm a welcome I will get? cuz I got some research "questions" that need "public" answers .  

#1 about the "french fleet *" -- is the present day "fort caroline" location correct?  -- note various records record it in a diffrant area than the current "tourist" spot location is at.( Dr John De Bry
9:45 to 10:30)

#2 --speaking of first period spanish records * --I would like to see them personally --esp the salmon to the king report where salmon was talking about "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the ( north coast of st augustine / coast north of st augustine* )-- this is a question that needs answering by first hand record checking in person --so where exactly are these records kept at , and how do I access them?  (Sam Turner --10:30 - 11:15)

#3 ah civil war confederate blockade runner -- capt louis mitchell coxetter -- 1:30 - 1:50 (Edward Mueller)-- wasn't he the one carrying the jewel encrusted sword (meant for robert e lee--from british supporters)and gold coins bound for the confederates when his vessel was run aground off of wilmington , N.C. by union vessels and while rowing in he and the paymasters life boat flipped drowning them due to money bags being strung over their shoulders /necks dragging them to the bottom?

#4 well what did you guys find  in 2009 while checking out a 19th century ballast pile off st augustine? -- Chuck Meade 2:15 - 3:00

Ivan, if you do the tour of the Lighthouse grounds and museum, you will see about a dozen large crates sitting near their conservation lab with freshly recovered ballast stones. Supposedly the LAMP archaeologists recovered the stones to "sample" them and try to determine their origin. I am just curious as to why they needed so many. Oh, and so much for "in situ" preservation.  

 those would make for a really nice "rock wall" for my wifes rose garden   -- I just gotta ask em after you figger out where they came from --you gonna put em all back "in stew"?

after the bust em up into lil pieces trying to figger out exactly what type of rock it is  and where its point of origin (country) was --  they could sell the chips made of em in the gift store.--

or they could simpley look at the other artifacts found on the wreck site **** there like crockery and other items and figger it out the easy way----think I should tell em that ?-- save em a lot of time and effort and a lot of my tax dollars? but then what would they do for buzy work --for the next six months?

one or two "ballast" stones is enough to match up the point of origin  -- what did they remove the whole ballast pile?-- sounds like the old tricks used by early era type treasure hunters * removing all the "big iron" anchors and cannons ( nothing for a "mag" to hit on that way)---and scattering the ballast pile flat to stop other from finding "their" spot --via bottom profiling  

get your info--- record the gps cords ---then "nuke" the site .

Ivan,
should you tell these scholars that these rocks are changed out as needed, where needed and are mixed with stones from all over the world...I would think if they were carrying a heavy cargo,  they would be way down in their bilges with some ballast stones that would be a mix of everything in that ships history, including stones from other ships along with their history, confusing the mix enough to keep these genius' employed for years on something nobody cares about.
Aquanut

Ivan, give us a report on your meeting with this group.

One of the world's best marine archeologists, Jim Sinclair, an expert on colonial era shipwrecks

And who told you that? ;)

I was there -- felt a bit well "out of place" as they praised the fact that the state of florida has not issued a "collection" permit --- in over 20 years !!! only "research" permits --in others words collect data for the state of florida and the archie world in general with "no" fiscal gain for "the treasure hunters" -- boo hiss !!! .

now "for profit differances" aside --it was interesting -- got there at about 9:30 --heard them --chat about the 1565 "french fleet" -- the fellow did say that fort caroline was on a triangler shaped island in the river * ( its not on the mainland where the state set up a tourist "lookie" site at ) so that was good -- (I did state that the french burnt 3 vessels not 2 to prevent both their use by the spanish (to chase after them with and just basic capture by the enemy) and that the french that were left behind fled on a 4th vessel when the spanish arrived from st augustine to wipe out the fort , thoses facts were in the later writings of the french commander of the fort that was left behind because he was ill at the time -- he wrote of the events that occured later on )


the second one was about -- early spanish peroid st augustine and they showed some "hard landings" basically places that the spanish placed logs at certain "landing" places in the silt so that one could land without going hip deep in mud --sort of like a "plank road" ideal similar to the way the british made the "kings highway" *--- I remarked that althought the spanish controlled florida for many years--other than st augustine and along the coastline the spanish had little interest in "developing" inland  florida -- once they found out -- no silver , no gold, just hostile indains * -- they just basically stayed put in st augustine and along the coastline --the british in the mere 20 year peroid from 1763 to 1783 did much more development wize that the early spanish did -- and the later peroid spanish -- 1783 to 1821 reaped a good deal of benefit from the "kings road" built during that time frame. (1763 /1783)

about that time --I "killed" a "el cheapo" plastic folding chair they had out for folks to set on -- BANG --right on my arse -- so embrassing. happily just bumped up a bit -- not seriously hurt ( feeling a bit sore this morning however) --(they got me a good metal folding chair to sit on after that )--- lunch break time

next up -- the life and times of louis coxetter * famous for being a blockade runner -- the fellow taked at length about him but then failed to talk about 2 famous things -- the "pistol" event where a union vessel was gaining on his vessel  and he coxed the ships engineer to give him "more speed" by  exceeding what the enginner said were safe boiler pressures by leveling a pistol; art him and saying if we are caught I will shoot you. ( the union govt wanted to hang him)
the second event was the loss of the "fanny and jenny" -- the vessel was carrying --a gold and jewel encrusted sword( sent from british supporters to robert e lee) and gold coins * --these were lost when the vessel was froced to run aground by union vessels and as they made their escape to shore one of the "life boats" capsized killing paymaster and losing the goods -- there was some issue between the speakers account of when coxetter died 1873 and --dave horners account from the book "the blockade runners" which states he died during the fanny and jenny event with the paymaster -- clearly one of the two is in error .

next up is the what did we find in 2009? event -- long and short --they are trying to find out if they found the remains of the "jeff davis" --coxetters vessel which ran aground here in st augustine during the civil war and was unable to get off  -- (thus the coxetter "chat" tie in )

next a chat by a fellow whos great great uncle was the fellow who put florida shrimping "on the map" so to speak-- by using otter trawls and a gas engine to shrimp with and how the "wild" caught shrimp industry has its back against the wall --due to shrimp farming * -- farm raised shrimp are not as firm or as flavorful in my personal view but thats just my view point .

to end the days chats  --we had a visit from the deputy director of the georiga area (south )-- he was talking about how great the no taking anything from georigas "public lands" without permits is -- (ie no metal detecting on state lands ---boo hiss) - he chatted rather "rapid fire"about several projects that were in progress--  I did ask him what if anything they knew about a town called "arnold"along the st marys river * it was on the florida side of the river during the american rev war and is shown as being along the kings highway on a map in the georgia virtual vault archives from 1769 -- but "dissappers" and is not found on later maps -- was it a "war" victim --or just later abandoned by british town folk when the spanish took over again in 1783?

I also asked mr sam turner to clear up a question -- in admiral salmons letter to the king dated sept 20 , 1715 * all the translations --I have seen say -- *there is little dout the 2 missing vessels sank on the high seas --because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast of st augustin * this would mean that there COULD BE 1715 fleet vessel /vessels near st augustine --or at the very least floating bits of wreckage of one  --- however does it say -- "north coast" or does it say "coast north" ? a very small but possibly highly important differance *

for years folks grabbed that "coast north" and used it to mean the wreckage in "nassau sound" was a missing "original" 1715 fleet vessel  -- I contend that the wreckage spoke of is on the northern coastal area near st augustine -- and that the spotswood letter --of oct 24th,1715 spells out exactly what this wreck in nassua sound truely is ( the information is quite exacting in the letter)-- a wrecked salvage vessel (barcalonga) sent from havana, cuba -to the 1715 fleet wrecksites down south to gather up vips and high value goods and bring them back to spain , and that it wrecked about 40 miles north of st augustine ("nassau sound") -- I have been told he will get back with me -- this could help straighten out a issue. --and show that those two bits of info are speaking of two total differant wreck sites..

 alert ---they spoke a making a "hertiage area" -- thats much larger that the current "historical" area and includes even more "land" and inland waterway areas (like where the colonial plations were * along the waterways and such  )--they say that its to be able to access more and differant fundind sources --but I think its to "outlaew" metal detecting and gathering of stuffin a huge area--

I showed some pre contact shell beads as well as spanish era mission beads and a early 1700 english cuff link -- (the site was burnt down by the british in 1702 as they came from up north headed towards st augustine) --I "saved" these indain beads from destruction ( I kept one of each type found for my "private collection"--but the bulk of them,  I donated to my local measum in amelia island-- so they can make a "pre and post contact bead display" )-- I gathered them because my home county ---nassau --- had decided to "upgrade" their goffinsville park area -- by putting in a fishing peir parking lot on the site of  the old indain village / spanish mission type trade post spot ( one archie person -- a college level "collections person" reply was "good that site will be "protected" for the future with no one looting it -- my reply was no they dug the site out for the foundations of a parking lot --its gone --all thats left of it is what you see in my hands.)--BTW they were all very interested by my "english  cuff link" by the way --its rather differant

Excellent report Ivan! Good visual on the chair scene Lol!

Thanks!

Tom

Posted on their blog  etc.

good morning: I have a simple question which I would hope would be asked in the convention.

I am basically a land TREASURE HUNTER. I have found the Legendary lost Jesuit mine Tayopa, and in the search uncovered the plot by the Jesuits to take North america away from Spain with the collaboration of the Dutch.

I also found how they were clandestinely transporting the precious metal across Northern Mexico to a bay below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome through a series of small missions or way stations.

As a side thingie, I also found where the missing ship with Zimmerman's lost shipment of Gold to be used to bribe the Mexican gov't to help keep America out of WW-1 is closly located.

The tentative locsation of a German Submarine that was on an espeonage mission to the Coast of Sonora in WW-2 of which no direct records apparently exist

The possible location of a Manilla Galleon in Costa Rican Waters.

Tentative location of Morgan's loot from Panama, and the remains of a cargo ship that was carrying a large no of settlers to the head waters of La Mar de Cortez and grounded north of Tiburon Island which gave the Seri Indians a grand smorgasborg for a while.

There are other things of great interest, but I will never have the time to investigate these or what I already have here on Land.

I am a duly elected member of the Explorers Club, I cannot exploit these with any connection with the club, but I can for personal benifit.

Almost all of these points are 'only' known to me. My question to your members and guests is just "WHY should I turn over any of this information to any Archaeologist - Explorers Club members excluded"?

Why ahould I turn this data over to those that consider me as somethig undesirable, while essentially doing the very same thing? Data that was developed at the expense of time, money, and a few times involved my life.

Why shouldn't I take this information to the grave with me?

I have respect for most Archaeologists, but do resent being looked down upon for some weird twisted reasoning.

I would appreciate this question being presented to your audience.

Don Jose de La Mancha (Joseph Curry)

Thanks for the report Ivan. It was very interesting. Where do people get this mindset that metal detecting is synonymous with looting? Somehow we need to change this misconception. Additionally, why do people take pride in the fact that no recovery permits have been issued in twenty years? Think of all the history that could have surfaced during that time. I liked your questions on your personal areas of interest. Let us know if they come up with any answers, O.K.?

Joe, I agree with you, and if I was in your shoes, I would gather a few team mates and see all your information used by those who see things as you do.

Aquanut

Good morning my Friend Aquanaut:  Frankly I intend to get a few interested and let them carry the ball, being 86 is sorta crimping my diving style.  A sample of some of the others -  they loaded a coastal treasure ship by lighters with metal from the mines of Sonora, Chihuahua, set sail and left.   However, while still in full view of the spectators on land, she was hit by a tremendous squall and capsized.  There were no shipboard survivors.  She is presumably in the 80 ft depth range.

As for the Archaeologists, they, and we, earn our living by exactly the same thing, salvage, which by any name is still the same.  Almost 90 % of them also have top collections in their homes, things that were paid for by the public, for public consumption, AND belongs to the public.  It makes me question their definition of professional ethics and legalities..  

Don Jose de La Mancha

Joe,
86 years and counting! It sounds like you've been busy for a long time! There are a lot of things to investigate. Don't let it all go. Every team needs a leader!

As for the archy's. I don't have any first hand knowledge as to whether any of them are honest or not, so I won't comment on that subject other than to say my diving partner Salvor6 seems to view them with a bit of skepticism.

Aquanut

Good morning my friend Aquanut:  Many of my good friends are Archaeologists of varying levels.  It is simply human nature to retain an object or two.  The question of legality, morality, or personal level of honesty is a very grey area.  In their case, I would probably tend to do the same. 

The term looting, as they use it in reference to treasure hunters or salvors, is exactly the same if applied to them.   Artifacts kept for personal use or gain.  Artifacts kept in an archaeologist's home or a Treasure hunter's are exactly the same.

I have  a very close friend that uncovered a hammer that was used in the copper mines of Crete that had perhaps 1/2 of the wooden handle being replaced with copper, an extremely rare occurrence.  Is it in a museum for study ? Nope, it is in his living room on a pedestal.  I am not even sure that  he submitted a Paper on it.

As for having had time to find data and stories of ships, mines, lost treasures from mule trains or simply the family olla of coins, yes, I literally have hundreds of them.  The problem is that most are in my memory banks and are brought out by a remark or side reference.  Some day (?) I have to list them and put them on a disc, such as the final location of Cromwell's ship.  Yes, he did exist. It is broken up and much of the remains are now land locked - sand.  they occasionally find gold coins in the surrounding area.

Speaking of Cromwell, he used to anchor in a small bay just below Los Mochis where his anchorage was hidden from view. There were fresh water springs on the hill.  The Indian that told me this story said that his father used to hide up on the mountain side overlooking the anchorage, and watch them sort things on the deck, throwing many objects overboard.  Archaeologists take note.  Once they took two large heavy chests up the mt to the spring where they buried them.  They have never been recovered according to him.

Another  simple example was Elle's search on the Tubares mission.  I had forgotten about my exploration trip to there which required a 3 days mule ride from the nearest village.  It had been abandoned. However talking to her  brought out the memory that I had found where a new, still unknown mission was being constructed.  It was to be used to communicate by mirror by day, or fire at night between the missions of Tubares and Guazapares.  It was named for one of the fathers that was killed in the Indian uprising.

 I was looking for the lost Spanish mine La Gloria Pan / La Mina del peligro, which was not too far away, only one day by mule.  Incidentally, Yes, I found the mine.

Don't get me to talking about these things, I can ramble on for hours, obviously.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Joe,
That's some interesting stuff!  You say you've got hundreds of stories/leads/data in those memory banks of yours. I really hope you share more of them with us. Ramble on as much as you like. It's storming here in Florida today and tomorrow, so I've got a touch of cabin fever going on...I'll be standing by...
Aquanut

Good morning my friend Aquanaut :  In the two attachments are shown Cromwell's anchorage. He used to anchor to the north in that bay, next to the mt. where there was  a spring of fresh water.  That is where he buried two heavy chests, according to my Indian friend.  This was told to him by his father.

The chests are still there since his ship was wrecked further north where he was attempting to seek a safe anchorage from a one of a century hurricane.  The ship was broken up with no survivors.  This is to the north of the Los Mochis map

As you can see the Ocean was separated from the mainland by a series of sand Islands, some fairly high, and wide.  In those days the sandy strips were actual islands, open at both ends, so he had a nice escape route if he had ever been discovered.  Now most are sanding in and forming bays, some even disappearing entirely by being absorbed by the mainland..

On his sinking and being broken up by the Hurricane, he was to the north at  (X) when the hurricane hit.   Knowing the normally safe anchorages, he tried to enter this one, but the waves were completely covering the sand islands and crashing into the normally quiet lagoons.

The wind was from the wrong direction, N / NW quadrant ? which kept him from tacking into the deeper waters of the lagoon and despite dropping his anchors, forced his ship over a small rocky island that tore the bottom out. It then drifted to the SE  scattering it's cargo along the bottom until it finally broke up completely. There were no survivors.  What ever bodies the sharks or crocodiles didn't get, they buried on the southern Island with their own dead.  This is how I originally dug up the story by questioning them about the grave markers that  I saw.

The Indians told me that for years after, different objects would periodically appear and disappear in the sandy bottom of the lagoon.   I asked them why they didn't dive on them.  They told me that in those days the lagoons were full of sharks and crocodiles, both of which ate many Indians as they paddled on logs or swam from one island to the other hunting deer.  Whenever they found any remains they would bury them on the southern Island.   For some reason that never was made clear,  they separated the lagoon dead from the mainland dead ??

Soo, I know the exact island and the fact that they had drug their anchor chains across it while attempting to save the ship.  There is nothing visible today, but an anchor chain should be fairly easily found with modern instruments.   This would give the precise bearing of their drift, breaking up, and the final sinking area.

Yes, despite Archaeological data, Cromwell actually did exist and anchored just below Los Mochis in the perfect anchorage.  I believe that a dirt road exists today to the small mt that identified his anchorage from the sea.

Any questions?

Don Jose de La mancha

Joe, you've put together some interesting observations. I've seen expeditions formed on a lot less information.
You say you posted two attachments but I only see one and it's not very clear. I guess I'll pull up the area on Google Earth and see what that gives me.
Aquanut

Joe, I pulled up Google Earth and got a better picture of what you were talking about. Do you know by chance, why someone put a marker with San Ignacio on it in the middle of the bay?
Aquanut

good afternoon Aquanut:  That was prob me, since I don't know his actual anchorage point in the bay. Go to
===>  http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/i/agiabampo-dos/ .

You can scroll around from Navojoa to  South of San Ignacio bay to see what I was referring to in my remark on the sandy islands lining the coast.  Naturally you can zoom in.  You can also see what  a perfect anchorage he had, two exits and hidden from the sea with a lookout on top of the mt.  

As for his final wreckage zone, that will be sent to you by pm if you are interested.  

Archaeology's loss.


Don Jose de La Mancha

good morning, If the archaeologists in here really wish a ship to play with,  I have one just north of Tiburon Island on the main land beach.

In the 1800's, a ship load of settlers and their equipment,  with land grants for the northern areas of the Sea of Cortez, were caught in the "Sal si puedes - get out if you can - tidal currents and ended up beached.

They were slowly butchered and eaten over the next months by the Seri Indians.  the remains of the ship, and it's cargo were still visible in the gentle surf.   A true Archaeologists dream,  no precious metals, just daily living and farming artifacts.

The Sal si puedes is so named for the daily tidal currents that swirl and eddy forming whirlpools, etc.  an impossible condition for sailing ships.    The entire Sea of Cortez tidal flow is channeled through a narrow neck dominated by several Islands.  Tiburon being the largest, the most dangerous part is between the Island and the mainland.

I was first notified of the ship remains by an Amercan that was attempting to open a Tungsten property on the coast just north of Tiburon Island.   They had opened up a landing strip parallel to the beach. One day on the final, with the light just right,  he saw the outlines of the wreck.  The bow is on the beach.  The surf is about 6 " to a foot.

Subsequent research brought out the details of a lost ship full of settlers, never officially accounted for except for an occasional  'burp'  by the SERIS.

Be my guest, but remember, this was reported to me in the 50's. I never followed it up except for a search of 'some' records.   For a satellite search  -->

 http://www.kngine.com/search?q=Map%20of%20Tiburón%20Island

Don Jose de La Mancha

Joe ,
the story interests me, however, I do my physical searches in the Florida, Bahama , near Carribean areas simply because of logistics and funds. I'm sure you understand. Your information would surely interest the folks that post on the Shipwreck and Treasure forum. There are a few West Coast guys there that might be able to take advantage of your info. Now, I surely don't want to lose you to those guys, so if there is anything that you know of that we can coordinate on in my area, let me know!
Aquanut

Good morning Aquanut:  Unfortunately the only thing that I have to offer you would be in NE Mexico.   The  Jesuits were shipping metal from NW Mexico to a few small bays just below Matamorros for shipment to Rome.  I am sure that they had more than one incident of metal being lost in transference to the ships by lighter.

On The other, 'most' of the critical information has been given to Chagy. I am not free to discuss that here.  It is his to do with as he sees fit.  No strings were attached.

You , of course are spoiled, being in some of the most beautiful diving waters in the world.

I remember when I first started on hard hat work with Al Mikalow in Calif, the first work was done in the sloughs and estuaries, which consisted in mostly barely soluble mud. His theory was that he was 'training' hard hat divers, and after his course, diving any where else would be a picnic, you would be a PROFESSIONAL.  

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. If a small screw driven boat full of chocolate sized Gold bars would tend to change your mind-------- approx. 40 ft depth.  Prob. easily located in one day, or less, with an airborne maggie----

Joe,
I'm sure my diving partner, Salvor 6 will read this and get a good laugh about our "spoiled" diving conditions of late. I think he might verify that "barely soluble mud" is a reasonable description. BTW, I do like chocolate!
Maybe I could put a couple interested guys together for a look. I'll just need to know a little more.
Also, from what I've read here and the guys I know, Chagy sure seems like a good choice for you to have continue your work.
Aquanut