Gold bars recovered in the 1930"s, 70 lbs+- average weight

Ocean recovery, I can not identify the ships involved for sure.,but the area was somwhere off the coast of California. Sorry about the xtra large photo,could not reduce it.Ok,I found a little more imfo in my old notes, its possible the pictured bars may have been taken from the looted "Santa Anna", transfered to the "Content", which in turn shipwrecked itself,and sank.

resized

Ghostdog,

Are you sure that these are gold bars, and not silver? For about ten years, I have been trying to locate a lot of silver bars that were supposedly found on the Oregon coast in the 1930s, and which I believe did come from the Content. I have some photographs of some of the people who were involved, so will dig them out and try to compare them.

Do you have any more information or photographs, or the name of any of the people that were involved? I would like to compare notes if you do. I can't make it out clearly, but are those letters on the bar that the guy is holding? They don't look like Spanish letters, but capital Arabic (ie English) letters, ending with CA.

Incidentally, I don't know if the Santa Ana was carrying gold bars. I think that its gold was in the form of 125,000 gold coins. I will check my notes. I think that Cavendish took all the gold back to England on his flagship, the Desire, and that the Content was loaded with other stuff, including silver bars that had been plundered earlier in the voyage. I had information that led me believe that the Content wrecked on the Oregon coast, including somebody who had held one of the bars. He said they weighed about 70 pounds each.

Mariner


  

ghostdog, to me those Gold bars seem rather large to only weigh 70 lbs. ?  But , I have never seen a 70 lb Gold bar so,  I'm really not qualified to know.  Thank you for the photo's.  Dell

I would think so too. A Fort Knox gold bar is 7 inches x 3 and 5/8 inches x 1 and 3/4 inches. Weight is approximately 400 ounces or 27.5 pounds.

Stan

resized

Darren nice picture. I know one thing for sure. If that was a gold bar it would take someone like HayStack Calhoun to lift it, not the guy in the picture. Like others, I'm guessing it's silver.

The lettering on the bars looks like BLMCA, is that likely to be the Bureau of Land Management Ca ?

Sometime after I started this thread I was called to my job, I did not get back untill 6am today.Darren,thanks for the resize. Hi Dell,always like reading your posts.Mariner, my notes say, Sir Thomas Cavendish looted the Santa Anna, of gold bars,silver bars , and jewlery{stones etc.}. A part of this treasure was loaded onto the "Content". My notes also indicate the Bar being held is Gold,and weighs 70lbs..I agree it looks like more than 70lbs,and it is possible the caption I copied it from was a miss -print. The bars lined up on the lower left look different in size,than the bar being held and could be silver. The letters on the bar being held,in my opinon,were probably placed their for salavage documentation,which I cannot read either.  I dont have the Content, going down off the Oregan coast,but somewhere South of San Francisco. I believe Cavendish like Drake,probably dumped lots of treasure and plate overboard,to lighten the ships load. This might account for random bars and other treasure being found with out reminents of a ship. Gd luck in your searches.

The BLM Ca. was established in 1946 so the bars do not reflect that entity.

Ghostdog:
What is the source of your picture?

ghostdog,

I wonder how reliable the sources are on which you based your notes. There is no reason why the Santa Ana would have been carrying silver bars, (which travelled the other way on the Manila Galleon route)and I know of no source that quotes gold bars, or gems for that matter.

The "official" Hakluyt account says that they took "122,000 pezos of gold : and the rest of the riches that the ship was laden with, was in silkes sattens, damaks, and muske and divers other merchandize." I do have copies of hand-written letters from Cavendish to a number of prominent people in England saying that he did not tell the Customs officers the truth about how much plunder he brought back, but no information that it included gold bars.  A guy called Michael Mathes, a history professor now retired, is probably the foremost current authority on the Santa Ana, but I am pretty familiar with his work and don't think that he ever managed to find a copy of her manifest.   

I hope you can tell us the source of your photograph.

Best,

Mariner

I believe the foundry initials on the ingot are "SLM Co." and they appear to be modern, perhaps they are aluminum or zinc alloy, certainly not gold and perhaps not silver as the gentleman holding the ingot does appear to be of a certain age and holding up a 70 pound silver is a bit stressful, not in accordance with the fellows expression. Can you read "LAZY MONDAY" on the wooden beams on the left side, above the ingots on the floor? The lettering on the top, above the gentleman's hats reads "these were sea" and the square on the top left is probably an inset of another photograph making me believe this picture was taken from a 1930's magazine, perhaps Popular Mechanics. Just some thoughts. 

When Cavendish returned, the exchange rate for the gold 2 escudo pistol coin dropped in London because they were so plentiful. This was either because much of the gold they brought back was minted in these pieces, or because Spanish merchants had their agents go to England and buy back the cargo. Nothing I have seen would lead me to believe the gold or silver bars would look any different than those types recovered from the Atocha. Silver went to China and did not come back except as worked plate.  

Ghostdog:

Other than from your notes, what source(s) stated or suggested that these bars were from an "ocean recovery" or from an area that was "somwhere off the coast of California"?

Also, a cubic foot of gold weighs 1206 pounds. The man in the pic may be carrying only 1/4th of that volume; but by his relaxed stance, he certainly isn't holding a 300 pound bar.
Don.....

It appears a random picture was inserted around the story of the Content and Drake's ventures. I believe the ingots are more modern since they have been stamped by a mining company. Nice guess, Panfilo. Popular Mechanics - May 1932...

http://books.google.com/books?q=%22...ying+close%22&btnG=Search+Books

Darren and Panfilo:
Great catch on that Popular Mechanics article!!
So at least the source of the pic is now determined.
I note the bar seems to be marked SLM CO rather than BLM CO. One WAG guess is the 'M CO' is 'mining company'.
What I didn't read in the article is any connection to the picture.
Don....

good morning: I tend to agree with Mackaydon.  Incidentally if those were Spanish DORE bars, the gold content would not be very high, so do not try to figure their weight in Au specific grav.

In Mexico, in the period that we are talking about, the bars were cast of a size that allowed two per animal, generally in the range of 45 kilos each.  Relatively easy for both man and beast to handle.

Although as robbery increased, some resorted to simply casting the metal in blobs by a hole in the ground, then transporting the huge blobs - maybe 500 - 1000 lbs -  by two wheeled carts which the Bandits couldn't handle.  Obviously these were predominantly AG.

Some mule trains from Alamos were hundreds of animals long.  Think of the logistics involved. Sheesh.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

The last letter observed to the left of the gent holding the bar seems to extent into the ship's deck; therefore suggesting it was originally written in pencil on the pic.

Darren and Panfilo,

Great piece of detective work! Well done, and what a disappointment the truth sometimes turn out to be.
 
The silver bar supposedly found on teh Oregon coast and described to me by the guy who claimed to have held it (see earlier post) was said to be almost three foot long and instead of being of constant cross-section was splayed out and rounded at both ends. It was also said to carry various markings, including the cross of Lorraine (two horizontal bars on a single upright). I have never come across a silver bar anything like it, and can't understand why it would be cast in such a strange shape, because they would take up more space on a ship. Then, again, I have never seen a photograph of a 16th century silver bar. Has anybody else?

Mariner

Marina have you read these documents on the AGI site ?


Letter from licensed Santiago de Vera, president of the Audiencia of Manila, on the arrival of an English privateer, who had robbed and burned the galleon Santa Ana who left New Spain in 1587; need annual return from New Spain, people , arms and ammunition, construction of galleys and fortification of Manila. (Cat. 3469). Accompanies:

- Relationship made by Captain Thomas Alcala, the journey of the ship Santa Ana and her taken by English privateers when he went to the port of Acapulco. Undated. (Cat. 3508)

Letter from Santiago de Vera, governor of the Philippines, accounting for the news he has had on the presence of the English privateers who took and burned off the coast of California the galleon Santa Ana, who was in those islands to New Spain the previous year . Relates the amount of gold they stole, musk, silk, pearls, etc.., A cleric who was hanged in Manila and who left the crew and passengers on a deserted island, staying with some. Has decided to send the ships to New Spain with artillery to deal with these pirates and manufactures to meet the new artillery that draws from the strong and was burned in a fire in Manila

- Transfer of the steps taken against the English corsair between 7 February and 18 March 1588. Manila, 21 June 1588. (Cat. 3457)

 
Gary

Then, again, I have never seen a photograph of a 16th century silver bar. Has anybody else?

I have actually seen a few silver bars from the late 1500's that conservator and historian Doug Armstrong had in a safe at his house.

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/tbars.htm

Darren,

Thanks. I actually do have a copy of Armstrong's report. I suppose that I had mentally dismissed those early Mexican bars because I was thinking about output from mines like Potosi. Too early in the day, out here, I guess.

Mariner

Darren is that good looking guy holding the coin. I am that masked man underwater.

Cheers, Tom

Peerless,

Thanks for the AGI references. I remember looking at translations of the de Vera and Alcala records a couple of years ago, and am pretty certain that they did not describe the nature and value of the gold that the Santa Ana was carrying. I will have another look at them, though my Spanish is not good enough to comprehensively read these old records. I think I probably read them on one of these sites that provides translations of them, or might have read translations in one of Michael Mathes' books or papers, or in correspondence that we have exchanged from time to time.

Thanks again.

Mariner


  

Tom,

Sorry. It really was too early for me today!! I think I will go and have a nap!

Bob

The article indicates the galleons were attacked by English pirates near Cape San Lucas in lower California. Could the letters on the bar "SLM CO" mean "San Lucas Mining Co"? Just a thought, dont know if there was ever any mining in that area.

Probably not. There is a reef near Borneo where Drake got stranded by the tide, and to slip off of it and prevent his hull from cracking, he threw 4 to 8 cannons off the Golden Hind to give it enough boyancy to be pulled off. I think a couple were later recovered by a local king.

Cuzco:
I heard a different version:
Drake dumped the guns to allow loading of spices that far exceeded the value of his guns, pound for pound.
And another version:
Six tons of cloves were loaded onto the ship. Later, half had to be tossed into the sea in order to free the ship from a reef.
Don....

http://www.indrakeswake.co.uk/Artefacts/cannons.htm

Looking back, I note that I got into this same discussion about Drake four years ago:
http://www.treasurenet.com/f/index.php?topic=32927.0

Don,

Time flies when you are having fun. That previous thread more or less exhausted the discussion about Drake's lost guns, and anybody interested in the subject should just follow your link.

Mariner

Mariner:
Imagine the thrill and value of finding one of Drake's cannons.....
Don........

Don,

On another thread recently, I posted a note about looking for a device that would penetrate through ten feet of salt-laden mud, in order to detect things like bronze cannons and silver bars. The wreck I am hoping is there is the ship that Drake took from Tello Rodrigo off Costa Rica, and left behind at New Albion when he went back to England. I am hoping that it might have been carrying a bronze cannon or two when it sank.

I am also hoping that it might contain some of the silver bars that Drake took from the Cacafuego.

We know that Drake left this ship behind from the testimony of his young cousin John, and it is easy to show that he had 85 people when he left Mexico and only 58-60 when he got to the East Indies. I believe that he left the other 25 along with the Tello bark, in order to winter on the Oregon coast and then continue the search for the fabled North West Passage.

Mariner

I have no problem holding a 70lb silver bar.

Mariner:
If you thinking about searching and salvaging anything along the California coast, I'm sure you'll first do your homework regarding the many agencies that you will be dealing with. And in the end, you may get stopped as Marx was in Drake's Bay or anyone today attempting to get in the area of the Brother Jonathan and other wrecks.
Don........

Don,

This wreck is on the Oregon coast, and I have been in regular contact with the State Archaeologist about it. You don't need permits here for carrying out remote sensing surveys, and if I can ever manage to establish the identity of this important wreck, then I don't suppose for a moment that I would be allowed to (or would want to) salvage it for profit. However, what a wonderful and important find it would be.

Incidentally, Drake was never in California. The only "evidence" that he was comes from the official Haklyuyt account, which places New Albion at 38 degrees. It is very easy to demonstrate that this account was deliberately falsified in at least five places, and the only two unpublished, hand-written detailed accounts of the voyage both place Drake's anchorage at 44 degrees, which is on the mid-Oregon coast. The official account was deliberately falsified to keep Drake's search for the North West Passage secret from arch-rivals Spain.

Mariner

Mariner:
I would agree with your Oregon comment and it probably also applies to the State of Washington where there remains interest in one particular ship lost in the 1800s--but I digress from the thread--sorry.
Don....

The article,POP Mech,says the" Content" went down in the California Headlands, this leads me to believe,after a little research, it could be somewhere off the coast of Marin county,Calif. I think there is a reef there,, where a number of ships dureing a storm have sunk,more than likely 1 on top of the other. The search area would probably be where the storm corridor is the strongest and constant to that location. Older weather data to present might be helpful. I am a land lubber, but I do enjoy all forms of treasure research.Gd luck in your searches.

ghostdog,

Popular Mechanics can hardly be viewed as a reliable source for historic information.

Nobody knows yet what happened to the Content. She went missing immediately after the looting of the Santa Ana, and was never seen again, at least not by European eyes.

The "official" account of the voyage in Richard Hakluyt's 1589 edition of "Principall Navigations, Voyages and Discoveries of the English Nation" does not even mention her disappearance, and anybody reading it would conclude that the Content returned to England with the Desire. This was a deliberate misrepresentation, that I could address at some time.

The 1600 version, however, says "and night growing neere, we left the Content asterne of us, which was not yet come out of the road. And here thinking she would have overtaken us, we lost her companie and never saw her after." Later, in the East Indies, a pilot that Cavendish had taken out of the Santa Ana tried to send a letter to the Spanish Authorities saying that the Cointent had gone in search of the North West Passage. Cavendish hanged him. presumably this prisoner had overheard something. I can't think why he should have been lying.

The fate of the Content will remain a mystery until somebody finds the wreck, or her cargo. Last year, I posted on this forum pictures of a cast iron face mask of a woman, which I think is that of Queen Elizabeth, and which I think came from the Content. It was found on an Oregon beach. Also, about ten years ago now, somebody approached me with a story about somebody finding a cache of silver bars in a virtually inaccessible sea cave in the same area. This person claimed to have been shown and held one of the bars that was found, plus an engraved sword that was found with it. The sword was supposedly sent to the Smithsonian, who identified it as English and 16th century. They asked the finder to donate it, but he would not. My informant said that he had seen the sword and read the letter from the Smithsonian. I have been to the National Archives and tried to find a copy of the letter, but without success.

I have hit a blank wall in trying to trace the people involved in the find, and don't think there is enough evidence yet to start searching the Ocean in that area with detection devices.... too expensive without better information.

However, I am not sure how true the story is. That cave is now empty, but the silver was supposedly taken away by a group of miners from Arizona. That is why I was so interested in your photograph. Although it seems unlikely that a cache of silver should just lie in a sea cave undiscovered for centuries, there was a great earthquake off the Oregon coast in 1700 that caused the land to sink 6-10 foot into the Ocean. Thus a cave that was easily accessible in the late 1500s would have become almost inaccessible in the 1930s. I thought for a moment that your photo might have offered the break I have been hoping for, but I think not.

Good luck in your attempts to find the Content. Let us know if you find anything.

Mariner

Mariner, I will post what I consider to be a very remote clue, thin at best.
The book,Who Murdered Frank Fish, page 13, gives a account of Frank Fish, finding evidince of a Engish settlement,not previously known,and items he found at this location. Frank  dated the settlement to 1600,but could be earlier.This would be in Columbia,Calif,or vincity.One item he unearthed was a Spanish sword.Now,get out your map of Northern Calif.,place a straight rular on Columbia,Calif,with 1 end going to the ocean,this could be a good search area.

ghostdog.

Interesting. It looks as if Fish's book is quite hard to get hold of, but I read a bit about him on the Internet, and I will try to find out why he thought it was an English settlement and why he thought that it dated from 1600. A Spanish sword hardly does it. I notice that Columbia is almost due east of Drakes Bay, and that Cermeno took a party inland in 1595 before returning to find that his ship had wrecked. I wonder what Fish considered a "settlement".

Thanks,

Mariner

I was going to point this out earlier, and now clarify it. Cermeno only went down Drake's Bay to a couple of villages. A Spanish sword from 1600 is more likely an item the sailors who mutinied after the San Agustin was wrecked may have traded or discarded on their way walking back to Mexico.

Mariner,if this helps, author is Ben T. Traywick,published by Red Maries,1993. Besides the sword,he found a skull with a 70cal.bullet hole,and other items which are not described, as being English.His notes maps and sketches of the settlement,disappered with his death. If anyone out there is reading this,and has any knowledge of the supposed English settlement,please post it here.

Cuzcosquirrel,

Thanks. I agree that Indian trading is the most likely way the sword would have travelled, but did not want to say so until I knew more about the circumstances in which it was found.

ghostdog,

I read a post on another forum by Ben Traywick, or maybe it was just a quote from his book. He says that Fish found English items that led him to draw that conclusion about a 1600 English settlement, but gives no details. He quotes him as finding some gold coins with dates of 1850. It doesn't sound too promising as a source of usable information.

In my time, I have tried tracking down dozens of statements like this, just for the sake of completeness, and they almost always lead nowhere.

Mariner