The Peralta Stones

[Here is an update to the story I originally posted:]

Some people have asked me to post some information on the Peralta Stones, so here goes:

The story goes that in 1949 an Oregonian Police Officer who was on vacation with his family, pulled the car over to the side of a road. Never specific road given in any version of the story. He wanted to get a better look at Weaver's Needle, so he walked up to the top of a little hill. When he was walking around on the hill, he tripped over a rock. This rock didn't look natural, so he dug it out and picked it up. It was the Horse and Priest Stone. He left and took the rock home.

He came back a year later and found the two other stones and a smaller heart shaped stone. He died in 1956,and his widow gave the stones to a Travis Marlowe. Mr. Marlowe spent the next eight years decyphering the stones, but could never find the mine. On June 12th 1964, Life Magazine published an article about the stones. This was their first public showing (parts of the stones had black electrical tape covering up vital markings). They have had numerous "experts" look at them. Some say they are real, and some say they are fakes. Nobody knows for sure.

Eventually, they were donated to the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum in Phoenix, where they sit today. They are not on display, but they will bring them out if you ask (they may charge you for it).

Here is an update to the story I originally posted:

Some have said that the finder was never positively identified.

That is not true. His name was Travis Tumlinson, and his wife confirmed (after his death) that the stones were found along the highway between Apache Junction and Florence Junction, Az, on their way back to Oregon from vacationing in Texas.  Nobody has ever questioned the veracity Travis Tumlinson. He was a Cop from Hood River, Oregon. He found the Don Stone initially. He ran back to the car and got a shovel. He spent a few hours digging around where he found the first stone. He found stones 2, 3, and 4. They took the stones into Apache Junction, and washed them off. When somebody asked him what they were, he said he just found them. The guy said that they must be treasure maps. Travis got a little paranoid and put them in his car


So, here are the Peralta Stones:

On the Horse side of the stone, in the upper right hand corner is a map and clues. In this map, the word RIO is used. This may mean to cross a river, but what many people who see these stones don't realize, is that many times when the Spanish used the word RIO in a map or carving, the mean it as a water clue. I.E: reflection or mirror image. It may mean to read this inreverse.

On the Witch/Priest Side, is another short map. I believe this map was how to find the other stones. I think this, because if you look carefully, you will see the back side of the Heart Stone (rectangle w/cross inside).

The next stone found was the Trail/Cross Stone. This looks like another map, showing the beginning of a trail somewhere.

The other side is the word DON

Next, is the Heart Stone. This is a continuation of the map on the Trail Stone. If you only have the main stone, and not the heart shaped insert, you will not see the end of the trail. You only see the date of 1847. Once the Heart Shaped stone is inserted, the final part of the trail is revealed.

``

``

I'll even tell you where to look. If the Peralta Stones are real, and the trail to follow on the trail stone is correct, and you are supposed to go 10 degrees from center, that puts you on Herman's Mountain. I have checked this location against Google Earth, and some of my Topo Maps of the area. The mountains match. The valleys match. Use the intersection of Whitlow Canyon and East Silver King Rd as your starting point. Follow the canyons like on the Trail and Heart Stones to the end. 10 degrees to the right, and you are on the South Slope of Herman's Mountain.

This is not the location of the LDM. Most thinking puts that near the South end of Black Top Mesa near Needle Canyon.

But remember, the Peraltas had eight rich gold mines in the Superstitions. The LDM was the only one not hidden by the Apache after the Peralta Massacre, because it was too hard to see and get to. Unlikely to be found by the white man.

Mike

I'll even tell you where to look. If the Peralta Stones are real, and the trail to follow on the trail stone is correct, and you are supposed to go 10 degrees from center, that puts you on Herman's Mountain. I have checked this location against Google Earth, and some of my Topo Maps of the area. The mountains match. The valleys match. Use the intersection of Whitlow Canyon and East Silver King Rd as your starting point. Follow the canyons like on the Trail and Heart Stones to the end. 10 degrees to the right, and you are on the South Slope of Herman's Mountain.

This is not the location of the LDM. Most thinking puts that near the South end of Black Top Mesa near Needle Canyon.

But remember, the Peraltas had eight rich gold mines in the Superstitions. The LDM was the only one not hidden by the Apache after the Peralta Massacre, because it was too hard to see and get to. Unlikely to be found by the white man.

Mike

Wow Mike!   You're just a fountain of information aren't you?  How long have you been treasure hunting to have learned all you know about so many different things?

T

Another thing somebody might want to try. If you are in the area, start at the spot indicated by Queens Creek. Follow the course indicated, and see if there are monuments along the way. According to the Trail and Heart Stones, there are nineteen spots along the trail at equidistant intervals. Those most likely coincide with sixteen landmarks.

Keep in mind that other people may have had this same thought, and destroyed any landmarks they found to keep anybody else from finding them.

Mike

I just found this, and it is almost exactly what I have been saying. This is somebody else's idea as well. Like I said, so many people have gotten into the LDM Story over the years, it's hard to imagine anyone thinking of something entirely new based on the same evidence that has been around for 60 years.

Mike

Gollum could not help but notice that picket post mountain is in the wrong spot. PPM is south of queen creek not to the north.

Hey Boulder,

That map is not mine. It is from TE Glover's Book.

Best,

Mike

Maybee one of us should tell TE Glover the news.

OOOOPS! My bad. It is actually Chuck Kenworthy's Map.

Maybe we should tell him! I agree!

Mike

Look at the drawing of the horse map. Someone even "tricked" that up. Hillarious.

For instance, where is the writing on the horse butt on the stone? I don't see any. Also, it says "Yo Pasto", but the last O looks like a U to me. And it says "Al Norte".

That "O" looks more like an awkard 6 to me...
 
so if the that is a u and not an o, and if that is a G instead of a six, you could with very little help come up with a sentance that says. U past Go, or am I just on the wrong page?

See Randy,

I think your problem is that you need to look at the stone from an early 1960s picture! Are the ones in teh AM&M Museum copies? Maybe!

Here is a picture of the Horse Stone while in the custody of MOEL Inc:



If you look carefully at the haunch, you will notice what looks like the name "PEDRO"

Best,

Mike

See Randy,

I think your problem is that you need to look at the stone from an early 1960s picture! Are the ones in the AM&M Museum copies? Maybe!

Here is a picture of the Horse Stone while in the custody of MOEL Inc:



If you look carefully at the haunch, you will notice what looks like the name "PEDRO"

Best,

Mike

Is their a number 2 on the horse's forhead.
 Or is it just me SEEING THINGS.
  Seventytwo

No thats not a number 2 , its the mark of "Zorro"

Warm Regards

Buddy A

UGH!!  MB.
Tropical Tramp

Hey Buddy,

You SHOULD have used a picture from Zorro, The Gay Blade!

Mike

OH! And 72,

Some people think that the Horse itself is part of the map, because of the different shapes, and markings on it. Look closely: The tail looks kind of like a flowing river doesn't it? The markings on the head and neck look kind of like mountains don't they? Maybe the misspelled Spanish words were part of a code. After all, who would take the time to do all that work carving the stones, and misspell many of the words (Unless it was on purpose).

Makes sense to me!

Best,

Mike

=gollum
 After all, who would take the time to do all that work carving the stones, and misspell many of the words purpose).
Mike
**********
YOU would just out of onryness! And just because you are you.

Tropical Tramp

See Randy,

I think your problem is that you need to look at the stone from an early 1960s picture! Are the ones in the AM&M Museum copies? Maybe!

Here is a picture of the Horse Stone while in the custody of MOEL Inc:



If you look carefully at the haunch, you will notice what looks like the name "PEDRO"

Best,

Mike

Is their a number 2 on the horse's forhead.
 Or is it just me SEEING THINGS.
  Seventytwo
[/quote
If you use the cross as a t on the left side of the stone. would it read downward as    tED? or TED
Then, is that an eight in the middle of the word CA8ALLA?
 Just woundering?
  Seventytwo

Thanks BB,

It's not a big deal. I have heard nothing back since. I PM'ed and emailed the guy that made the threat. He never returned anything.

That whole deal got me more friends and private information than could imagine. Some of it was from unkown people that have yet to be verified, but much was from people I know you have heard their names. Some of them have different opinions as to their origin, but most believe them to be real. Most also believe that the stones in the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum are probably reproductions (even the supposed real ones).

I just got an email with a GREAT lead from the U of Az. Rogers College of Law I have to follow up on tomorrow.

This is a reason I NEVER back down from anybody. You wind up getting more respect in the longrun!

Best,

Mike

UH  err GOLLUM  mi buddy, any leads on hot dates?


Tropical Tramp

Yes, but those stay in the Archivio Segretto Michaelo! (Mike's Secret Archives)


Best,

Mike

That is a defination of a buddy? And here I would share the last drop of water with you , snifffff

Disallusioned  Till Eulenpiegle

You can have all the water, I like honey(s)! I may die thirsty, but happy!

Best,

Mike

Gollum,

How did your new lead go at the College of law?

Have you got any more evidence to prove the Stone Maps to be real?

BB

COME ON!

You didn't think it was going to be THAT easy, did you? A nice lady there told me that they didn't have the files on the MOEL Case. While it doesn't do anything for proof of authenticity, it DOES tell me that the case was brought against MOEL by the SEC and the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix! Getting closer! I tells me that the state of Arizona had nothing to do with the case, and bolsters the version of Corbin's story about "him being at" the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix (visiting), when the FBI guys were there.

As the leads started coming in, the story is starting to take shape. I don't know just how long it will take, but I'll get there sooner or later.

Best,

Mike

I have a copy of 'Frontier Times,May,1973,that has an interesting story of the Peralta Stones.Maybe you can find a copy somewhere.They say it has been determined that the 'horse' is a donkey.
My copy is starting to yellow,but when my son is home again,1 - 2wks from now,I'll see if he can make a copy to fax to whoever might want it or scan it for posting or however that computer stuff works.Let me know.
The story starts on pg4 thru 13 and then continues on pg 47 thru 49 then continues on pg 52 and ends on pg57.
The title of the sory is:"Are The Peralta Stone Maps A Hoax?"

Like I said,when my son gets here.By the way,in the story it says all the stones are 'sandstone' except for one which is 'quartz'.Does that have any significants?This is my first reading of any of the threads dealing with this subject and I'm not going back and read all of them .I only connected that article and this thread today so thought I would post an offer.

Hey BlackBeard,

Actually, that's not correct. Cortez did indeed torture the Aztecs for weeks after conquering them, but nobody gave up the secrets. There are several reports from Cortez to Spain that are available in Madrid (or Seville), that go into gory detail about the types of tortures and such. None of those reports say anything about getting information (and they would have).

What we know is that in 1519, when Cortez first visited the Aztecs as a tourist, there was gold everywhere. When he came back in 1521 as a Conquistador, much of the gold had disappeared. The Aztecs could not have taken it to the South or the West because of hostile tribes. They could not have taken it East, because that's where the Spanish were. The only way left was North. And the Aztecs were known to be friendly with the Northern Indians. Do I believe that the Aztecs carried tons of gold on foot, all the way to NorthEastern Utah? NOPE!

The Aztecs didn't have Horses, and they didn't have the wheel. They left Tenochtitlan in 1521, the ones that left, never returned. That's why none of the tortured Aztecs could give any info to Cortez; all they knew was that the gold left town.

Best,

Mike

Randy, Gollum,

The Stone Maps in the Mineral Museum are the originals. At least the Priest and Horse maps I'm not so sure about the Trail Maps but the heart insert looks real. The early stone maps you see on the bumper are reproductions and the originals were the ones that Bob Corbin took or was given to settle a dispute on the ownership.

There's only a small difference between the fakes and the reproductions. The small heart on the right side of the Priest Map in the Mining and Mineral Museum covered by a lightly etched square is the verification of it's authenticity. If you look closely and magnify the area you will see the micro etched symbols of a small micro map.
I've seen the same thing on Pictogliphs made by the Jesuits.

Gollum, thanks for setting me straight on the Cortez History. You must be some sort of History Buff if you can remember every detail of that stuff.

I only concentrate on generalized reports in Spanish history (DRSW) because as we all know the Aztec people were brutalized and trivialized by the Spanish with their culture, writing and way of life destroyed. So in other words they lied about everything pertaining to the Aztecs to pump up their own egos and status in eyes of the King. Cortez wanted to be named the new Governor or King or something of Mexico. He never was and died in
obscurity. At least that's the way I remember reading it I may be wrong correct me if I am Gollum.


BB

Thanks BB,

Somebody else PMed me the same thing. I'll tell you like I told him: NOPE! I just know an awful lot about the history of the American SouthWest, and anything that can help me better understand the folks that left valuable things behind, that I am trying to recover! While I love to rat around out in the wilderness, I also am forced to spend a ton of time online, in libraries all over SoCal, and talking to old timers in many local historical societies. I get information you wouldn't believe!

The way it works is, when I start researching a particular story, I first take a ride there. I wander around for a few days, looking to see if anything jumps out at me. I take a lot of pictures, and make a lot of notes. If anything turns up in the pictures, I go back to the spot and look closer, and take more pictures. I also try to get a feel for the place. If I can't figure it out there and then, I hit the local libraries and historical societies. I go online, and search for anything and everything having to do with the history of a place.

Since (most) everything here in the SouthWest that involves treasure, usually involves the Spanish and/or the Jesuits, I make it a point to know as much about their history, markers, signs, etc. as I can.

Best,

Mike

Sorry, NOPE! was to me being a history buff. Only a history buff about the American SouthWest!

Best,

Mike

Now look what all this talk has done to me!!

 ;)

 

Should have told me you were going in! I would have asked you get a pic of the heart in Little Boulder Canyon!

Best,

Mike

I'll be back out there Sat or Sun , see what I can rustle up for you!
Best Always
MesaB

It's supposed to be on the South Facing side of the Canyon. I was told that there is also a triangle of trees.

Best,

Mike

quote author=gollum link=topic=41448.msg294151#msg294151 date=1152861309]
On the Horse side of the stone, in the upper right hand corner is a map and clues. In this map, the word RIO is used. This may mean to cross a river, but what many people who see these stones don't realize, is that many times when the Spanish used the word RIO in a map or carving, the mean it as a water clue. I.E: reflection or mirror image. It may mean to read this inreverse.

On the Witch/Priest Side, is another short map. I believe this map was how to find the other stones. I think this, because if you look carefully, you will see the back side of the Heart Stone (rectangle w/cross inside).
[/quote]

I just tuned in here and as always love a good mystery.

What interests me is the weathering on the stones. It has been menitioned before that the maps are pristine looking which was suggested as evidence that the maps are not geniune. However, the Priest writing, the Don stone writings and the Cross stone writings have something in common. They all exhibit weathered surfaces which are different that the writings below. Notice that the interpreted map parts on these on the other side are  almost pristine. Notice the extreme weathering for the word DON. One could argue that these stones were found with the Priest, Don and Cross writings up  and exposed to the elements after many centuries. Possibly explain why the maps also look pristine.This would also lend support for the Priest side as a short map to the other stones( One would be looking for the Don and Cross stones which would be in the up position)

Well just shooting the breeze at a very boring day at work.  If someone has already menitioned this well excuse me.
George

Greetings BlackBeard,

BB wrote:
<snip>
only concentrate on generalized reports in Spanish history (DRSW) because as we all know the Aztec people were brutalized and trivialized by the Spanish with their culture, writing and way of life destroyed. So in other words they lied about everything pertaining to the Aztecs to pump up their own egos and status in eyes of the King. Cortez wanted to be named the new Governor or King or something of Mexico. He never was and died in
obscurity. At least that's the way I remember reading it I may be wrong correct me if I am Gollum.

Not to take Gollum's place here and your 'take' on this part of history is "correct" from a certain point of view.  I would point out that it is possible to view this rather dark period of history in a different way. 

The Aztecs were highly militaristic, having conquered all the neighboring tribes and held them in subjection/slavery conditions.  The Aztec religion demanded vast numbers of human sacrifices, which the pious Aztecs went to great lengths to fulfill these demands.  Spanish chroniclers recorded a mass sacrifice of some 20,000 non-Aztec captives over three days, a horrifically bloody act by itself, with the torn bodies of the victims tossed very un-ceremoniously down the steep stone steps of the pyramids to be eaten by the people!  The Spaniards were horrified!  We read in our history books how Cortez managed to conquer the Aztec empire with a mere "handful" of men when in truth the Spanish found that they had ready allies in the vassal states around the Aztecs, who provided the man power needed to overthrow the brutal Aztec regime.  Here is an extract:

Yet this must not be understood too literally; for it would be unjust to the Aztecs themselves, at least to their military prowess, to regard the Conquest as directly achieved by the Spaniards alone. The Indian empire was in a manner conquered by Indians. The Aztec monarchy fell by the hands of its own subjects, under the direction of European sagacity and science.

So while the Spanish imposed an "evil" on the people of Mexico, they had overthrown an empire which was far more bloodthirsty and brutal, and brought many (arguably of course) "good" things to the people, such as the introduction of Christianity, the many European technological advances (gunpowder and guns, the wheel, horses, burros, cattle, sheep, etc) and yes they did bring the near-feudal system of Spain, but even this was certainly no worse than the former Aztec overlordship.  The Spanish conquest imposed "peace" which ended the constant large-scale warfare that was continuous among the many city-states of Mexico and Central America, and while there were Indian wars on the frontier with Seris, Yaquis, Apaches even Comanches raiding south, this level of warfare was nothing like the massed armies that clashed prior to the arrival of the Spanish.

Cortez died a wealthy man, and left his many children and dependents well cared for in his will, even all of their mothers.  He may have been in relative obscurity but had managed to get out of the massive debts he had incurred, and had earned a place in history which remains indelible.  It is popular today to take a "bias" in favor of the Amerindians, as if the Americas were a sort of "Eden" or utopian society, however the truth is far darker and bloodier; it is popular today to denounce former "heroes" like Cortez, yet in their day they were doing battle with real "forces of darkness" and the end result is certainly better than what was before. Cortez may have exaggerated to some extent in his reports to the king, but in some areas the truth exceeded his exaggerations - the amounts of silver and gold that started to pour into the royal coffers (and Spain as well) grew to astonishing amounts!  They did spread the word of Christianity, and worked to erase the former bloody religious practices prevalent throughout the area - in their zeal the missionaries did destroy the Aztec books (or codices, same thing) but in a way their efforts are understandable; they did not understand what was contained within the books and found the priest castes keeping the books so assumed they were books of their dark religion.  Fortunately, thanks to the efforts of some of these same missionary priests, not ALL of the codices were destroyed and we are beginning to be able to read them.

Anyway friend BlackBeard, your view of that period of history is accepted by many people today, I only wished to point out that this view is a rather new development, formerly a different view held sway and if you think about it still makes sense on some levels.  I was not trying to pre-empt anyone else on the subject just didn't see anyone present that side of the story.

Oroblanco

AW Heck Oro,

I can't stay mad at anybody (except my ex-wife)!

Oro's right BB. Don't you shed a single tear for the Aztecs! If you thought the Maya were bloodthirsty, the Aztecs had them beat by a mile!

While the Aztecs were fighting and killing everyone to the East, South, and West, they didn't have any big problems with Indians to the North. Most people who know the subject, believe that this is because the Aztecs came from the North to gey to Central Mexico. They were, at the very least, friendly with the Northern Tribes. They may also have been related to them. This is also the reason that most people believe Montezuma sent all the treasures to the North in 1521.

Best,

Mike

Gollum, thanks and I never was mad at you - besides we have way too many common interests to let ONE major difference (politicks) break a friendship.  Even there I think we agree on a bit more than we disagree.

Mike is right on the nail as to Aztecs having friendly trading relations with northern tribes (turquoise especially from the area was prized) and some have proposed that the mysterious Mound Builders of middle and eastern US are somehow related to Aztecs or Mayas.  Some have also noted similarities between the Anasazi and Aztecs, including some cannibalism.  I wonder if there is any Aztec connection to the Superstitions?   

Oroblanco

Well, we KNOW that there are Aztec/Mayan connections as far North as Southern AZ.



Best,

Mike

Yes, I have heard of Aztec items (trade goods) found in SE Utah, plus anyone who is 'into' Indian arrow points knows that the trade in them was very extensive. 
Oroblanco

Speaking of Aztecs and North American ties... its my simple hypothesis that the Aztecs might have some origination from the peoples of the Chaco Canyon area of New Mexico, and I have some evidence to site this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Canyon
"Between 850 BC and AD 1250, Chaco Canyon was a major center of ancestral Puebloan culture. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec
"Establishment 1248 --Dissolution 1521"
"According to the Aubin codex, the seven Nahua tribes lived in Aztlán under the rule of a powerful elite. The seven tribes fled Aztlán, to seek new lands. The Mexicas were the last group to leave, guided by their priest "Huitzil". The Aubin Codex relates that after leaving Aztlán, Huitzilopochtli ordered his people to never identify themselves as Azteca, the name of their former masters. Instead they should henceforth call themselves Mexìcâ.

The Spanish conquistadors referred to them as "Mexicas". In Mexico, archeologists and museums use the term Mexicas. The wider population in and outside Mexico generally speaks of Aztecs. In this article, the term "Mexica" is used to refer to the Mexica people up until the time of the formation of the Triple Alliance. After this, the term "Aztecs" is used to refer to the peoples who made up the Triple Alliance."
"The true origin of the Mexica is uncertain. According to their legends, the Mexica's place of origin was Aztlán. It is generally thought that Aztlán was somewhere to the north of the Valley of Mexico; some experts have placed it as far north as the Southwestern United States. Others however suggest it is a mythical place, since Aztlán can be translated as "the place of the origin". The mythical story of these travels is recorded in a number of codices from the Spanish colonial era, most prominently the Aubin Codex and the Boturini Codex."

I'm aware that the proposed languages of Chacoan culture differ from presumed Aztec peoples, but I can't help thinking that somehow the Chaco influences of celestial calendars, larger structures, roads, and city organizations show some similarities... of course its a naive hypothesis at best, but I submitted it as food for thought...

If the US gov't in the last 200 years somehow stumbled on to the location of the Aztec gold, do you think it would have been made public?

If so, Mexico and the rest of the world would have wanted the gold returned, so I'm sure it's in Ft. Knox, and any records long ago destroyed.

If I were the Aztecs, knowing that Cortez was coming back very soon, I think I would have dumped the treasure into the deepest part of a lake.  The new Atec leaders may not have known just exactly where, and the Aztecs still did have allies in the south during this time, so it could have gone there.

In his letters back to Spain, there is no mention of a vast amount of gold to be had, so perhaps whatever was there was just split up by the C-dores. There was a much larger number by then.

Tourists??

JMHO.

bobinsd

sorry it is not the four peaks area he was talking about , but when i ploted my location i had seen the LDM at , i found them ....easy to find ...did i forget to tell you all i have a 4 point fix on the LDM site ...! fact !

If the US gov't in the last 200 years somehow stumbled on to the location of the Aztec gold, do you think it would have been made public?

If so, Mexico and the rest of the world would have wanted the gold returned, so I'm sure it's in Ft. Knox, and any records long ago destroyed.

If I were the Aztecs, knowing that Cortez was coming back very soon, I think I would have dumped the treasure into the deepest part of a lake.  The new Atec leaders may not have known just exactly where, and the Aztecs still did have allies in the south during this time, so it could have gone there.

In his letters back to Spain, there is no mention of a vast amount of gold to be had, so perhaps whatever was there was just split up by the C-dores. There was a much larger number by then.

Tourists??

JMHO.

bobinsd

Hey Bob,

No way! Read those letters of Cortez closely. You will see that when he first arrived at Tenochtitlan in 1519 (as a tourist), there was gold adorning both people and buildings. When he came back as a Conquistador in 1520-1, much of that gold was gone. He spent MANY weeks torturing the Aztecs trying to find where they hid the gold, and nobody talked. All they found out was that it went North. They had hostile neighbors West and South, and the Spaniards to the East. They were very friendly and traded with the Apache to the North (The Apache might have even been related to the Aztecs. Aztlan was, after all, to the North). How far North? Nobody knows, but they did have gold that the Spaniards didnt get, and to the best of my knowledge, it has not been recovered.

Maybe if the Aztec gold was what was in Victorio Peak, then the Government might have it. Other than that, I doubt it.

Best,

Mike

HI Peeps:  A littl problem for you regarding the Jesuits etc.  They liked their little games.  What does this say or indicate?

Tropical Tramp

first you got to be able to see it ..lol something two location one lager than the other it dose in fact relate to the jesuits .. useing the Number * for the word infinity is almost as fun as useing vici and adding nity ....lol if you can get me a clear copy of it yes i can read it ...

Hey Jose,

I agree with BB on one thing, BETTER RESOLUTION!

Best,

Mike

i hope you guys under stand , 7 years ago,  i wrote the M&R logic code,( about parellic reflections in all matters and anti matters of creation ) .... its a formatt for the code of creation it self...in a simbolic binary logic code .....i am a crazy old fool ! LOL 

Gentlemen: Frankly, it is actually clear enough for the purpose.  It is on one of my Jesuit maps.  It is indicative of the little games they love to play. It is simply the initials of Two Jesuits  and the Society of Jesus. 

This was crudely made by a mirror image upside down.  Always look for these little ticks.

Tropical Tramp

p.s.  OOPS, the way it posted it is simply a mirror image  sorry, even so----..

No, it shows mirrored and upside down. It just looks like many of the characters are too faded.

Best,

Mike

?? clarify, my myopic friend.

Tropical Tramp

?? clarify, my myopic friend.

Tropical Tramp

Come on Jose,

That's the easy part:

Look at the pics below. The first is the code as you posted it;

Second is the code after being flipped horizontal.

Third is the code after being flipped vertical (so, what started out as the bottom line, ended up the top line and it's 022)!

Best Mike

That is, unless you think the top line should be 660 (which it could by being only vertically flipped and not horizontally).

Ya got it gollum.  The first three lines are the initials of the three Jesuit padres that signed the document,  The  O J  is "Orden de Jesuits".

Something this simple can throw one off if they simply accept it at face value or their favorite author has.  I ran across this time and time again during the Tayopa search.

Tropical Tramp

You sure about that?

Looks like the the middle line is all letters, the top and bottom lines look like numbers (except for the OJ).

Hey maybe that's not Jesuit at all! Maybe OJ Simpson coded his confession, and signed OJ at the bottom.!

Best,

Mike

That is, unless you think the top line should be 660 (which it could by being only vertically flipped and not horizontally).

  see thats just what i am talking about , the second line is not someone 's name . it says  (  & d f  ) ....( & direct  fix ) ....

Gentlemen, one thing not taken into consideraton, my lousy penmenship,  go to post # 34 in the Tayopa legend. It was just intended as a demonstration.

Troical Tramp

That's why it was so difficult figuring out if it was just mirrored or mirrored AND upside down. That's why I asked for a better copy.

Best,

Mike

EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES! eheheeh

Tropical Tramp

Mike,

"I just found this, and it is almost exactly what I have been saying. This is somebody else's idea as well. Like I said, so many people have gotten into the LDM Story over the years, it's hard to imagine anyone thinking of something entirely new based on the same evidence that has been around for 60 years."

I would guess that, by now, you have come to realize that statement is far from true.  Besides my own, I have seen a number of different plausable readings of the Stone Maps.  None of them are alike in location or exactly how the maps are read.

cj

there is one translation of the stones that dose fit one given area of the mts ,, the right translation lol . the stones fit the location as will as the peralta ruth map and the dirrections and all known acounts ... . unbeleaveable No if you are at the right location  they all fit perfectly !

Bowman,

The trail maps do not need to be translated, just read.

cj

I agree CJ,

Just read the maps. The Horse/Priest Stone is another story.

About your earlier post, I think Tom Glover said it best in his LDM book, when he said that no matter how many people have how many different solutions, most all of them lead to something (I'm paraphrasing).

Best,

Mike

Mike,

It's true you can find many solutions for the Stone Maps.  The trick is to find the one that does not need to be twisted to fit the location you have picked.  For instance:

If you pick the correct place for the point of the dagger, you must be able to follow the map to the X that is in front of the triangle-slash.  That point does not rest on the Salt River.

If you pick the correct place to start the Stone Map trail, you will find the first X/mine/cache on the right side of the trail as you travel down into the canyon.  If you are correct, you will be able to see the second X/mine/cache on the other side of the canyon.   I assume the third X is an old mine/cache as well.

It seems likely that each of the X's is a cache.  Two that come to mind are the Harry LaFrance and Bob Brady caves of gold bars.  The X in front of the triangle-slash is a good bet for Bob Brady's cave.  If so, the location is what he lied about to the searchers who went in on that black night.  Chuck Ribaudo and Ernie Provence were two of those men.

Unlike Harry LaFrance, Bob did not have a gold bar to show, as he claimed he lost it on the way out.  However, his description of the bars matches those found by Harry LaFrance.  There is no doubt, whatsoever, that Harry's gold bars existed.

Bob sent those searchers to the southwest slopes of Bluff Spring Mountain.

Good hunting,

cj

Bowman,

The trail maps do not need to be translated, just read.

cj

not true....

Bowman,

I know "wich trail is wich".  I have offered the facts, which can be examined by anyone with a topographic map of the area.

You have offered stories which can't be verified as factual.  I would be more than happy to have you question the evidence I have presented here.  Four Peaks is shown on the Stone Maps.  In your conclusion, are they visible while standing on the Stone Map trail?

You may very well have the correct answers, but it will take more than saying so, to make it so.  Not one single person can take the Hieroglyphic Canyon starting point and show where the Stone Maps deviate, anywhere, from that point.  No doubt you can do the same thing with your starting point.

I have not said one word here about the Stone Maps, that can't be proven.  You have not said one word that can be proven.  Your case may very well be changed at some time in the future.  Mine will never be changed.  The map will always be there, until the mountains no longer are.

cj

B,

You assume that the carvings on the back of the heart are zeros.  Why?

cj

A lot of this most likely can be attributed to Aurums information about Mitchell having a second set of stones made (carved not cast) by a professional. Two originals and two copies going with Elgin Kliewald (MOEL Attorney and partner of Mitchell), and two copies and two originals going with Mitchell. My best guess would be that Mitchell took the Horse\Priest Stone and the Heart Stone (originals) and his two trail maps being the copies. Aurum has alluded to that several times.

Best,

Mike

B,

Did you consider the type of stone?  One is easy to carve, the other quite difficult.

cj

Bowman,

I know "wich trail is wich".  I have offered the facts, which can be examined by anyone with a topographic map of the area.

You have offered stories which can't be verified as factual.  I would be more than happy to have you question the evidence I have presented here.  Four Peaks is shown on the Stone Maps.  In your conclusion, are they visible while standing on the Stone Map trail?

You may very well have the correct answers, but it will take more than saying so, to make it so.  Not one single person can take the Hieroglyphic Canyon starting point and show where the Stone Maps deviate, anywhere, from that point.  No doubt you can do the same thing with your starting point.

I have not said one word here about the Stone Maps, that can't be proven.  You have not said one word that can be proven.  Your case may very well be changed at some time in the future.  Mine will never be changed.  The map will always be there, until the mountains no longer are.

cj

   " Four Peaks is shown on the Stone Maps.  In your conclusion, are they visible while standing on the Stone Map trail?" 

No... they are not . for good reason they aline from only one given place and one given point and that is high up on a mt ! so your answer is NO you can not see them from ether of the two trails ... that show up on the stone trail maps

" No doubt you can do the same thing with your starting point."

 Hieroglyphic Canyon is not the starting point of any thing other than confussion ... lol . and yes i can track the corse of the stones trail maps from start to finish . and they have nothing to do with Hieroglyphic Canyon....

Bowman,

Four Peaks are not shown on the Stone Maps as "one".  The are shown left to right, as four.

"Hieroglyphic Canyon is not the starting point of any thing other than confussion ... lol . and yes i can track the corse of the stones trail maps from start to finish . and they have nothing to do with Hieroglyphic Canyon...."

I have given you a starting point, and you have given us another story.  One is physical evidence, the other is.....smoke.

You will need to explain where the Four Peaks are shown as "one" on the stone maps.  Making claims without being able, or willing, to back them up is wasted breath.  The Four Peaks are shown in the middle left side of the first trail map.  While you can see the Four Peaks from the "lofty ridge", they are not correctly placed on the map.  The symbols on the map correct that misplacement.  Do you know why that was necessary?

cj

"You will need to explain"

i dont need to do anything other than live and die ..!



your wasteing my time now ! i can answer the questions easyly  , why should i ,because you ask me to because you dont know the answers your self lol  ! get real  ...

you want me to amswer those questions (OK ) when i get my permits i will show you i not only that i  knew the right answers but i knew what everyone else did not know ...and i will prove it ...

i respect your asking the simple questions yet the answer are very complex .and i wonder if you would even under stand the answer  if i gave them to you ?

Bowman,

I agree.  You don't really need to explain anything.  I look forwart to the press releases when you open the LDM.

Not much point in my carring on a one sided conversation.

cj

i got a lot of things to do and none of them have anything to do with the LDM or AZ at this time , i cant go back untell next fall so , i will be reading and watching what is posted , and if no one beleaves what i say than . there is little reason for me to post or reply .... stay safe stay free

The Don P map. It has been made up from the trail lines that start from the Don Peralta trail head. Then end in the Upper La barge Canyon. This map can be easily broken using most any topo maps of the Superstition Mountains. This is one of the only maps that can be used as an accurate trails map to the Lost Dutchman Mine. It is as simple as dissembling the lines in the picture and locating which section of the trail the lines over lay.
    Treasure hunting 101 

72,

Are you saying that the LDM is in Upper La Barge Canyon?

cj

Sheehs  Djui haven't you dug it up yet? What are you waitig for?

Tropical Tramp

There isn't much evidence linking the map stones with the Lost Duchman Mine. It is possible that they were engraved by the Peralta family. In the June and July 1976 Treasure Magazine, Tom Probert gave an excellent description of his opinion on the stones. I have studied his interpretation carefully, and his overall idea seems to fit. The map and the 18 places matches very well with the trail and missions starting at the Ures Mission and ending up north at Casa Grande.  He identifies the locations with a map drawn by Padre Kino in 1695. I have many different maps of the area including one that was drawn just before 1767 when the Jesuits were arrested and removed from the missions. The locations on the newer more accurate maps seem to match the rock maps very well. I'm not sure that I buy the final destination as Casa Grande. If you look at the figure, it is not a witch. It is a priest standing on a base or pedestal. Why would the Peraltas put that on a map? The priest is waving a cross in the direction of the trail.

Some have said that the Jesuits found out about the arrests and moved their valuables to a hidden cache in or near the Superstitions. The so called mine may actually be a cache of church gold, silver, and other items from the missions. That would date the stone map to about 1747. This was also the time period when the Tumacacori Mine, which was located west of the mission at Camp Loco, was being operated.

Igad,

"Some have said that the Jesuits found out about the arrests and moved their valuables to a hidden cache in or near the Superstitions."

It's a good story, but there is not a shred of historical evidence to back up any part of that sentence, other than "Some have said". ;)

cj

Well CJ, why are you posting here? Theres not any historical evidence that the stones are genuine, or related to the Peralta family either! Did someone appoint you as history monitor? If you don't have anything constructive to contribute, keep your thoughts to yourself.

Igad,

Sorry you took that as a personal attack.  I post here for the same reason everyone else posts.  Exchange of ideas.  Probably a new concept for you, but don't give up on the idea too quickly.

It does not take much grey matter to figure that the "stones are genuine" as they are their own best (physical) evidence.  That does not mean they are not a modern-day hoax, which is something I have always said was more than possible.

There is no evidence they are related to the Peraltas.  Did I say they were?  That would be a mistake on my part.

I said it was "a good story".  Don't you think that's "constructive"?  I said there wasn't "a shred of evidence".  I believe that's "constructive".  It opens your comments to debate, which most would consider "constructive".

On the other hand, your last post is designed to close any debate, and is a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research.

No one has appointed me "history monitor", it just seems like a worthwhile endeavor to correct those who try to change history, especially when they don't really have a clue as to what is true, and what is fantasy.

Please feel free to attack any "facts" I might present, that you feel are in error.  The intelligent and proper way to do that, is to attack the "evidence" someone presents, and not attack the presenter of those facts.

I believe we are all here to share our thoughts.  If you should come up with one, I hope you will not be reluctant to let everyone know.  There are people who try to restrict that freedom.....You're not one of those people, are you?

cj

[cj ;you have every right in the world to post here.]

I believe we are all here to share our thoughts.  If you should come up with one, I hope you will not be reluctant to let everyone know.  There are people who try to restrict that freedom.....Your not one of those people, are you?

cj

  cj ;

you have every right in the world to post here.

Please feel free to attack any "facts" I might present, that you feel are in error.  The intelligent and proper way to do that, is to attack the "evidence" someone presents, and not attack the presenter of those facts.



cj

and this is Very well Put also.

I would actually Remove his attack on your right to be here,
but your Response is so very well written, I feel it should stay.

JEFF

P.S.

the Only response I expect to see on these comments is an
Apology to you.

it takes  the common sense to step back and take a good long look at whats going on . legend vs reality !

unless you can dirrectly relate any of  the peralta stones to any given location (as i have ) they are as good  as fakes , even if they are real.

i am working on my equipment for the next expedition. and with good out come so far . we are set up to take over 12,000 pictures in 10.2 megapixle on location from 10mm to 2600mm telephoto .with a full  solar battery chargeing  system on location .no more dead battery ...no more excuses...!

with a  full laser guided infrared thermatic scan of the 5 sites in question , with a full GPS scaled reading of the locations of each of the 5 site in question ..and all of the readings will be mapped on a state of the art Laptop ..with softwear designed for this type of mapping and readings , with Full Gps and Range finders and a skilled navigationial team ,i will set out to relocate what i saw in 1979 ..

the frist two expedition layed the ground work for  expedition #3.. we have an over all layout of the area and sites and we will find any evidence in the area and at those 5 sites ...

expedition #2 found evidence and recoverd a lot of data needed to define the over locations of the 5 sites ,,

 if i did not beleave the peralta stones were real ,i would not spend the money & time  to  research them

good luck to all of you ..

Blindbowman wrote:<snip>...they are as good  as fakes , even if they are real.


Finally something we can agree on!  There are SO many "treasure maps" out there, with SO few being worth anything more than as curiosity/artwork, these stones are of highly questionable value - whether real or frauds.

Oroblanco

CJ,

You wrote, "Sorry you took that as a personal attack." Then you wrote, "a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research." Do you think that I appreciate being called "weak minded" or "doing shoddy research"? They both sound like attacks to me. I see that you, in your rough shod way, have misaligned and made derogatory remarks about others on TreasureNet, and then apologized. It would be better for all if you be more careful about how you quote and criticize other posters.

I have been doing research longer then most on this board. I always try to keep an open mind to new ideas. There is nothing I wrote in my original post that tried to, "close the debate."

My goal was to remind those that were unaware, of the detail analysis of the Stone Maps that Thomas Probert published in Treasure Magazine, June and July of 1976. Thomas Probert was an Industrial Engineer that spent his retirement years researching and seeking treasures. In 1977 he published one of the most comprehensive reference books, "Lost Mines and Buried Treasures of the West." (Much of the information for the book was obtained from my friend, Milton F. Rose.)

Probert compared the map on the stones with several other maps. In the article he printed a poor copy of an 1695 Kino map for reference. Without getting into the nitty-gritty details, Probert presented a good case for consideration. The figure standing on a base on stone #1 is a Priest. On the base is an "S" which indicates "South". The "N" to the right indicates the trail is to the "North". The cross he is hold points to the trail. The numbers indicate 17 places to reach the destination. There are two boxes that contain crosses. These are major missions. The crytic means that a mission will be the fourth place from the start of the journey. The cryptic "8-N" means there will be a major mission at the eighth place on the journey. (Probert shared the idea that the words "Miguel", "Sonora, Mex", and 1847 were added to the stones at a much later date. He also believes that the name "Pedro" was added after the stones were found.)  The horse side of the stone has an "E" near the tail which means "East". He suggests that the "G-M" stands for Garza and Mendoza, two families that had extensive mineral grants in the area from 1749 to 1753. The grants were located just south of the Gila River. The cross above "EL" is a mission location. The two circles give a general relative position of the mines. The hat is a high domed mountain which he thinks is Picacho Peak, which is located north of the mines. The 5 places north of the river are mineral locations.

On the back side of the stones at the beginning of the trail there appears to be a building or tombstone with a cross next to it. This is the Ures Mission. The line to the East is the main trail to the North. The first dot is also Ures. The destination circle on the heart is West of the last dot, which Probert labels as Casa Grande. (I think there may be other possibilities here.) The "X" on the heart and the "X" to the right of place #3 indicate the location of the major Missions. The fourth dot back from the location is Del Bac. On the South it is the Huepac Mission.  Probert identifies 45 landmarks in his analyses, and most of them seem to make good sense. If you are interested in further details the magazine articles provide plenty of provoking thought.

As far as the legends of Jesuit treasure, the debates will go on forever. The Jesuits were brought over to New Spain by the Spanish King. Their main job was to bring Christianity to the pagans. Padre Kino was very effective in opening the land called Primera Alta with missions in Sonora, along the S. Maria (now the Santa Cruz), and down the Gila to the Colorado River.  The priests may have been unpopular with many because they opposed the practice of forcing the Indians into slavery. The Jesuits were repeatedly warned not to engage in mining, and yet there is historical evidence that shows they did some mining. The Jesuit order was arrested and deported in 1767-1768. Most of the mining was done by Spanish colonials. Billions of dollars of weath was taken out of Mexico for over 200 years.  Tayopa was located near the Jesuit School and Headquarters at Matape, and the inventory of church items that were hidden during the 1646-48 rebellion is well known to most treasure hunters. When the Spanish soldier arrived at many of the missions to arrest the Jesuits, they did not find much in the way of valuables, and it appeared that things of value were no where to be found. Did the Jesuits or the Indian parishoners hide what they had? Quien sabe!

I know some things that I will not disclose. What I will tell you may answer a long standing mystery. The famous Molina waybill is a forgery. The forgery was loaned to John D. Mitchell by Milton F. Rose. Mitchell went in search of the mines described and located several of them with the help of an old Pima Indian. Mitchell wrote his 1933 book using the document as a basis for several of his stories. Milton and Dewey Rose's business, the Rose Printery, published the book for Mitchell. Some of the stories were pure fiction like the one on Carreta Canyon. The forgery was also used by Gil Proctor for the books he wrote. I don't think that either one of them knew that it was a counterfeit. More recently, Gary Don Oliver used it his book. The real document looked and was constructed differently, and was used to create the well known Molina. Just because the document is a forgery, it does not mean that the information was false. Treasure has been found at some of the locations described in the Molina.

Hello everyone

You people make good points, especially igadbois and cactusjumper.    I am learning alot ! 

Thanks ! 

lgadbois,

Thanks for the info on the Molina waybill. I have heard that before somewhere but I can't remember the source right now. You knew Milton Rose? There is not a lot of information about him in print. I'll bet he was an interesting character! Got any personal stories about him that you can share? I was told the he and Clay Worst had a partnership in a mining claim somewhere. Do you have any info on that story or know where the claim was?

Blazer

Blindbowman wrote:<snip>...they are as good  as fakes , even if they are real.


Finally something we can agree on!  There are SO many "treasure maps" out there, with SO few being worth anything more than as curiosity/artwork, these stones are of highly questionable value - whether real or frauds.

Oroblanco

tonight me and my girlfriend were planing some of the equipment time . how long each task will take and that kind of thing . when we came up with a few odd facts about one of my sites .

it is up high on a mt and there is only one way down and a few ways up . but the site has a odd fact about it . it takes about 3 hours to reach the bottom of the mt and 3 hours to reach the site it self .. we got talking and there is no way a person can go to the site and get back out of the mts before night fall with no gear at all ... for one it took around 2 gallons of water to reach the bottom of the mt . let alone the site ...that would be about 4 gallons of water one way ...think about it ....

thats why the hiden camp is so importain . the mules needed water . he could go up to the mine with 6-8 gallons if he started at the hiden camp with that much water he could make the trip to the site ,and back down to the hiden camp again ....


i saw the water at the hiden camp ...

now it makes sense . he could have gone up the other way but its much steeper and he would have had to carrie less water and come back down the other way is longer and would take more time and water ...he could not have gone up the steep  way  up the mt ..it would have taken longer to climb up to the site  that way ...

i have a picture of weavers needle that looks just like it dose in the peralta -ruth map ...  that picture was taken from ( looking out the window of the rock house i found at site 5 ...)

how the peralta got the mine from the jesuit is a real good question yet anyone that found the mine had to know about the water at hiden camp ...unless kino told or wrote about it some where else  in his records ...

we know that there was spainish with in 200ft of the hiden camp ...from the spanish arrow i found ... dr thorne states he saw a quadtringle of peaks around him,  this is what we found at the rock house ... 

the odd fact i was talking about is . if i am right, this would explan why the dutchman left the big cache at the rock house ...he would have had to split the load up into smaller amonts because he could not carry the gold and the water , one or the other or  a small amont of both ... 50- 60  lbs  max ....IMHO ...

how much was found under his bed ?

 he had to stop at the  hiden camp for water before the climb up to the mine , thats where we found the nephew site ....he said they were going to the mine when he shot him ! was the stick we found near by the nephew's walking stick laying where he was shot ,is the nephew site his grave site ,,,

are the peralta graves at the hiden camp near the rock house ...?was the peralta stones taken from the peralta and left far away to mis leed others ?

is the reason the hiden camp was there was because of the water or is the tunnle the reason the hiden camp was there ...?

is the big cache still there ...?

yes i agree Oro......

the stone have little to do with my research  at this point ,.... i have a few questions to answer ....

when dose a golden statue turn black?

when its coverd in 200 -300 years of cave dust ...lol

Many years ago, I heard Mr. Kenworthy give a talk in Apache Junction on the maps.  If I remember correctly, he was going to put out a book on them, but I don't think he ever did.

Personally, I always kind of took what he said and published with a grain of salt, but he did have some interesting ideas and was wondering if anyone had any more info on his research on the maps.

His basic theory was that the two map stones would only get you to the right general area and the directions on the Horse map will lead to the actual mine site.

In the original set, the priest map and the horse map are back to back on the same stone and the Horse side map has code that makes it a "mirror image" map and must be reversed   If you tried to read the Horse side map with the top North and East to the right, you would go in the wrong direction.

The maps are interesting, even if they might be a hoax or of later origin.  I think whoever did them was very well-versed in sign and symbols, the dutchman hunt and Superstition geography/markers and Jesuit history.

Igad,

"You wrote, "Sorry you took that as a personal attack." Then you wrote, "a weak minded attempt to avoid coming up with facts or evidence to support your shoddy research." Do you think that I appreciate being called "weak minded" or "doing shoddy research"? They both sound like attacks to me. I see that you, in your rough shod way, have misaligned and made derogatory remarks about others on TreasureNet, and then apologized. It would be better for all if you be more careful about how you quote and criticize other posters."

I see you can't take a compliment either.

My thanks for the apology.

I am not really sure that I have "misaligned" anyone here, but will take your word for it.

Had I realized that "Treasure Magazine" was the source material for much of your research, I would have thought twice before ever questioning your facts.  In that regard, you need take a back seat to no one on this Forum.

Once again, thank you for your apology.  None was really needed, as I am not easily offended by people with your level of intelligence.  You may just assume, in the future, that everything you say just goes over my head.

Nice post.

cj

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that - and he is on the far side of the river Styx so we can't ask him.  How much would fit in a shoe box?  By bulk, not a lot, but by weight a considerable amount. 

The statue could be blackened by painting also, or by the expedient of smoke from a fire.  I have another question for you - where does the gold statue originate?

Oroblanco

72,

Are you saying that the LDM is in Upper La Barge Canyon?

cj

  Yes, I Have been there.
  The topo maps where the key to finding the mine.
   

B,

Not sure that desert varnish actually forms on gold.

cj

Hi CJ - not to take Mrs Oro's thunder but the Arizona state geology (monthly) newsletter had a couple of articles on it some years ago, yes gold will take on "desert varnish" over time, requiring around a thousand years to build up ONE millimeter of thickness, so....a gold statue would have to be laying exposed to the elements for quite some time to become black in that way. 

Oroblanco