How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

EE,

That would be, pretty much, on the money.  By a strange coincidence, ten miles east of Weaver's Needle is exactly where P.C. Bicknell said he would search for the LDM. By another strange coincidence, ten miles east of Weaver's Needle is exactly where the pit mine above Roger's Canyon is located.

Take care,

Joe

What's the coordinates again. I want to google it.

Thanks, CJ.

It's also strange that Mr. Bicknell wrote in his newspaper article that it was within 2.5 miles of Weaver's needle, then changed his mind to 10 miles away.

Well, maybe not strange, if he was interested in finding it himself.  Can't really blame him for altering what he thought was a good lead.

But too bad others thought what he said was true, and put so much into looking there.  (R.I.P.)  Of course, there is every likelyhood that things would have turned out pretty much the same for them, anyway.

A lot of people sure dug a lot of big holes out there, for it being, as the Forestry Services puts it, a non-mineralized area, though.

Thanks again, and whatever you do, have fun.

 

Do I think the mine that Ron Feldman opened up with his treasure trove permit is the LDM? NO, I do not.

Has Ron claimed to have found the LDM? Yes on many occasions but has yet to provide any proof (ore).

Like many that claim to have found the LDM, not one of them can provide proof (ore matching to the ore under JW bed).

Having owned and operated the local prospecting store, Pro Mack South, for the past 13 years (closed last December due to lack of business, like many businesses in this great depression), I have had a chance to talk, one on one, with many people searching for the LDM. Some serious, most not. Most have confinded in me as they know I am trustworthy and will not reveal what was told to me by them. But that has giving me the oppurtunity to hear it all. I am not from Missouri (grew up in Iowa) but I do believe in showing me proof and not one of them have so far.

Do I believe the LDM exsist? Yes, I do as there is enough facts to say so. I beleive it was well hid by JW (as he stated) on his last trip and then the earthquake in the late 1890's completedly covered any chance of finding it.

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Joe, I did take a look at that site. Jack is also in the business of selling books. Don't get me wrong they are good books with a lot of new/rehashed information like Ron's son, Jesse's book. But he has not found the LDM. They are out to sell books.

NH Smith - thanks so much for the response.  I didn't realize you were the owner of Pro Mack's in AJ - I believe I met you briefly at last year's Rendezous.

I'm really sorry to hear about your business closing - you're right there are a lot of small business owners falling on really hard times!

As far as showing ore to prove the finding of the LDM - it can be a double edged sword if you ask me.  If you don't show ore and have it tested, nobody will believe you've found it - if you do provide that kind of proof, you run many risks, not the least of which is law enforcement action if you've done something wrong in obtaining that proof.

The pit mine is a good example - whoever dug that out was obviously breaking Federal laws in the Wilderness.  Doesn't matter who it was or what they found, they were violating a law and would be subject to discipline.  The same person(s) who dug in there, simply can't come forward and say "look what I foun" without giving up their identities.

Anyways - thanks for clarifying your thoughts NHSmith - I appreciate it.

Paul

Do I think the mine that Ron Feldman opened up with his treasure trove permit is the LDM? NO, I do not.

Has Ron claimed to have found the LDM? Yes on many occasions but has yet to provide any proof (ore).

Like many that claim to have found the LDM, not one of them can provide proof (ore matching to the ore under JW bed).

Having owned and operated the local prospecting store, Pro Mack South, for the past 13 years (closed last December due to lack of business, like many businesses in this great depression), I have had a chance to talk, one on one, with many people searching for the LDM. Some serious, most not. Most have confinded in me as they know I am trustworthy and will not reveal what was told to me by them. But that has giving me the oppurtunity to hear it all. I am not from Missouri (grew up in Iowa) but I do believe in showing me proof and not one of them have so far.

Do I believe the LDM exsist? Yes, I do as there is enough facts to say so. I beleive it was well hid by JW (as he stated) on his last trip and then the earthquake in the late 1890's completedly covered any chance of finding it.

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Joe, I did take a look at that site. Jack is also in the business of selling books. Don't get me wrong they are good books with a lot of new/rehashed information like Ron's son, Jesse's book. But he has not found the LDM. They are out to sell books.

Mike,

I believe you're mistaken about Ron not showing any ore. He is the source of the Kocher Ore. I have always had my doubts about the Kochera story......but there is that ore. If the ore did not really come from John Kochera, where did it come from?

Ron has told many people that he has found the LDM and few, like you, don't believe him. He has also told us that the ore that he has came from John Kochera........and everyone believes him. Well........almost everyone.

It's true that they're all out to sell books, but the bigger truth may be that they are all just dying to tell the real truth. Of all the people involved, Ron has always been the one who has had the most trouble keeping the story under his hat. That story is being told and most, not all, of it can be found in that thread on the LDM Forum.  I know it's a long read, but you should go back and reread the entire thing.

Much like Ron's "Crooked Mountain", if you read it carefully and enough times, you will find the LDM.

I'm really sorry to hear about your business. There is an ongoing effort to reshape America, and the first ones to pay the price are small businesses like yours......and mine.

Good luck,

Joe

Geez Joe, i thought that the XXX books, pictures,  etc business was booming    You mean there goes my bony steak?

 Seriously, I hate to hear of small businesses going on hard times, sorry  Nugget hunter, but if things go much further downhill, people will be heading back to the hills to work small Au & Ag  claims, legally or not. and prospecting books tools, and maps will be in demand again.  Hang in there.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Is it not interesting to note that most treasures of this proportion happen to be in Federal Wilderness or protected areas (Military Installations, National Parks, ect.) today?

Remember what the "G.S." stands for, in U.S.G.S.

The pretty much know where all the goods are, you can count on that!

And, speaking of the Global dictatorship known as the United Nations, World Bank, World Wildlife Fund, and all of their other store fronts, look at what the government has turned over to them already.

And look at what they propose for the future, in the U.N. Agenda 21.

 

Hola compadres,
My apologies for having caused some of the confusion around Ron Feldman; by my saying he had obtained a Treasure Trove permit in the Superstitions Wilderness, and that he is among the few who ever had any gold to show, which were two separate and un-related events appears to have been read as if he brought out gold from the Treasure Trove dig which is not the case. 

About the illegal mining activity at the "Pit" mine; there is a statute of limitations which runs (I am fairly sure on this) seven years for that type of offense, so that limit has expired and no one can be prosecuted for it now. 

On the problem of obtaining a specimen of the ore for comparison and being prosecuted for it, two points.  One, would be to take the argument that you are merely taking a single small piece of the ore, which as gold ore would qualify as a type of rock popularly collected by rockhounds and rockhounding is still legal in Wilderness Areas; the Superstitions have severe restrictions on rockhounding so it appears that the specimen would have to be of a size that would fit in between the treads of your hiking boots and may be too small for an accurate assay but might do for a mineral exam.  What prevents the taking of photographs of the mineral vein?  If it is exposed to the sky as so many satellite image experts keep insisting, nothing would prevent taking photos of the vein to show.  This in itself would not "prove" that it was Waltz's mine, but would certainly help prove that a person had found an actual gold (or silver) mine and not just one of the many old barren prospect holes dug by earlier Dutch hunters. 

Anyway my apologies for not having made that clear about Mr Feldman; while I am not convinced that the "Pit" mine is the LDM, a major point seems to be missed by a lot of folks.  That is, whether it really is or was the Dutchman's mine is less important (to me) than the fact that despite it having been abandoned for so long and probably believed to be "all played out" it produced enough gold and-or silver to enrich those whom were willing to undertake the risks of mining in it.  Quite a few very rich mines were discovered over the years by people whom were out searching for some famous lost mine or other, and while these were not what they sought in the first place, were rich strikes on their own account and often enough made the finders wealthy.  By searching for a Lost Dutchman, even if utterly a failure at finding it, you are increasing your odds of finding something of great value in a quantum way.  The nay-sayers who would have us all just stay home and put away all those dreams of castles in the clouds will never and can never find a rich gold vein because their own belief system prevents them from even attempting it.

Nugget Hunter Smith, I am sorry to hear about your closing up shop.  My wife and I would not consider crossing Arizona without at least a stop at your shop to spend at least a few dollars even when we did not need anything in particular, just because we always enjoyed a visit there and wanted to support your business.  Apache Junction loses something important with your closing, and now we have another reason to avoid that city altogether.  I have to put at least some of the blame for this on the city council for their hostile attitude towards the winter visitors, with such local ordinances as that which makes it illegal for a visitor to camp within the city limits (even in Walmart parking lot, despite Walmart's policy nationwide of allowing customers to camp/park in their lots for up to three days) except in licensed campgrounds and the resulting high prices for motels have been driving away a certain amount of traveler/tourist business.  The very high prices that fuel has been at have been disastrous for many other businesses that are dependent on the tourist trade, it is very hard felt in our area here for the Black Hills region derives a major part of the annual income from visitors. 

I hope you will succeed in whatever you choose to pursue, thank you for your excellent service and courtesy which I witnessed personally.  In fact I am sure that you will succeed, based on what little I know about you.

My apologies to all again for having caused such a misunderstanding, should have made those statements about Mr Feldman more clearly separate, and for the personal rant about over regulation and micromanagement by governments.
Oroblanco

Oro - as for me, you didn't cause any controversy with the Treasure Trove / Ron Feldman thoughts.  I think most people visiting the forum are just not as clearly aware of what Mr. Feldman's permit was all about.

I wonder if what was found in the Pit Mine was something other than ore?  Perhaps it was the location of a bullion cache?

Oro - as for me, you didn't cause any controversy with the Treasure Trove / Ron Feldman thoughts.  I think most people visiting the forum are just not as clearly aware of what Mr. Feldman's permit was all about.

I wonder if what was found in the Pit Mine was something other than ore?  Perhaps it was the location of a bullion cache?

Paul,

That's a pretty good question, but I have heard from a number of sources that it was ore that came out of the pit mine. Beyond that, I recently had a number of my suspicions confirmed concerning who was involved in originally showing the way to that covered pit mine, and the fact that he had nothing to do with working the mine in the late 90's.

It may be that the legal limitatiions put the crime of working the pit mine out of any danger of prosecution, but I can see where there may be other reasons for the perp's not making the story public.

Take care,

Joe

This sounds like another case of our government obscurring history, under the guise of protecting it.

 

EE,

I must confess that I have no idea what you are talking about here. Can you explain what you think the Governments roll is in this story?

Thanks,

Joe

CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something.

 

EE,

The where is well known. What and how much is only known by those involved in the work of cleaning out that pit mine. So far, none of them are talking........that much.

I believe the information, for the most part, that I have provided is well known among Dutch Hunters.
There is some information that I developed, some very recent, on my own that is not widely known.

Good luck,

Joe

Joe,

EE is absolutely right (if for the wrong reason LOL). Simply look at what the NPS is writing about the Santa Cruz River Valley. They are trying to make people believe that there was only limited mining there, and even that was only for about five years.

Anyone that knows the history of the area knows different. The reason for the obfuscation is because Raul Grijalva is trying to make the whole area a Wilderness Preserve, and in so doing, he has to show that there is no potential for mineral mining business. Just like what was done in the Supers and in Death Valley, Ca.

Mike

EE,

The where is well known. What and how much is only known by those involved in the work of cleaning out that pit mine. So far, none of them are talking........that much.

I believe the information, for the most part, that I have provided is well known among Dutch Hunters.
There is some information that I developed, some very recent, on my own that is not widely known.

Good luck,

Joe

My mistake, then.  I thought you had mentioned that there was another site nearby that he worked, but didn't report, that was possibly the LDM.  I guess I misread it.

EE,

I don't believe I ever said/wrote that Ron worked the pit mine. I would say you are mistaken.

Take care,

Joe

Also,

Ron did not claim to have found THE LDM. He claimed that  "According to our sources, the Dutchman had a placer workings about (X miles) miles from his lode mine.  We believe the one we are now excavating is the source of his placer gold." That is from Ron's HEAT Website.

 ....... and the reason for his filing for a Treasure Trove Permit is because there was supposed to have been a large amount of gold bullion taken from the main drift of his shaft by Sam Cox. There was supposed to have been a left drift that was never excavated, and was supposed to have contained more bullion.

Mike

Mike - I thought it was Sam Cox's son Ted who was involved in originally working with a few other guys to get to the bullion.

I think there's lots of confusion going on in the last couple dozen posts or so.  I don't believe ANYONE claims that the H.E.A.T. dig site (that was allowed because of the treasure trove permit being issued) is/was the LDM mine.

However...

CJ and Nuggethunter Smith are both saying that Mr. Feldman has been heard to claim that he found the LDM.

Those two statements are completely unrelated to one another.

Paul,

You are correct on all counts.

Take care,

Joe

[and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine]

Paul,

Not knowing Ron F. as I don't, I could not speak intelligently on anything he might have or have not said.

Actually, on another page of the HEAT Site it states:

The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world.

So, whatever........................LOL

Mike

CJ---

So who worked the mysterious pit mine, and where is it?

[and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine]

Paul,

Not knowing Ron F. as I don't, I could not speak intelligently on anything he might have or have not said.

Actually, on another page of the HEAT Site it states:

The Lost Spanish Mine is believed to be one of the Peralta mines and one of the sources of Jacob Waltz's gold and the Legend of the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine, the most famous lost mine in the world.

So, whatever........................LOL

Mike

Mike,

You'll notice that I never stated that I personally had ever heard Mr. Feldman make the claim that he had found the LDM.  While I've met him and spoken to him a few times, I can't say I've heard that claim, but I know other folks have.

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one.  I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it....  only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain.  Anything else would be speculation imho.

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one.  I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it....  only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain.  Anything else would be speculation imho.

Well, thanks for that input.  Now it's back full circle, to my original statememt!

Which was---

"CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something."



Am I imagining things here or what?   

Cubfan,

I'm pretty sure that quite a few people know where "the" pit mine is.

Personally - I think it is too big and too deep to be the LDM - but - there are a lot of folks who think it is "it".

For whomever goes up there - be prepared for lots of company - as there has been a lot of traffic there this past winter.

Beth

EE Thr,

I don't know if the location of the pit mine is public knowledge or not, so I'll pass the buck on that one.  I thought I had heard that the location had been all filled in with little or no trace left, so there's probably not even much to see anymore.

I personally haven't been to it yet, but it's on my list for this coming fall.

As to who worked it....  only those who were there and did it know for 100% certain.  Anything else would be speculation imho.

Well, thanks for that input.  Now it's back full circle, to my original statememt!

Which was---

"CJ---

Well, it appears that nobody wants to reveal what came out of where, or how much.

And that sounds like merely preventing most of it from being taken by the government.

Unless I missed something."



Am I imagining things here or what?   

I know I didn't really answer a dang thing in my previous post to you, but here's my comment on your question...

I would say (and this is just my opinion) you have at least part of the equation correct. 

There is also the fact that even if some statute of limitations expires for conviction or fines for any illegal digging going on in the Superstition Wilderness Area, the people involved may simply not want their names associated with any previous illegal activity.

Another thing to consider is that the surrounding area near the Superstitions relies at least to some extent on the "legend of the Lost Dutchman Mine" and the fact that it's never been found.  Plenty of people hike, camp and explore the wilderness for the sake of the beauty alone, but there is most definitely an aura of mystery, legend and unknown gold mines that draws people to the area.  If that were to disappear due to proving that the mine was found, even if it's just a small part (and I'm not so sure it's that small) of the local economy, it could hurt the local area financially and nobody would want to be a part of that happening.

Again - just my personal opinions.

Beth - I didn't realize the area the pit mine is/was in has been busy this past winter.  Outside of "dutchman" afficianados, I wouldn't think many other folks would even know about it or even want to go off trail to check it out.

Guess I need to make sure it's a priority for this fall as I'd like to see the whole area before it gets trampled down

...If that were to disappear due to proving that the mine was found, even if it's just a small part (and I'm not so sure it's that small) of the local economy, it could hurt the local area financially and nobody would want to be a part of that happening.

You have a good point there.

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

Joe---

I fully understand.

I guess it was the wrong time and/or place to bring up the obscuring of history, in the manner in which I did.

Thanks,
Don

[This sounds like another case of our government obscurring history, under the guise of protecting it]

EE,

As I said......The people who cleaned out that mine are the only ones who know what was in there.

The names of the people involved are well known in the Dutch Hunting community as well as the location of the pit mine.

Even so, I will not be naming them in any forum. The story has been discussed many times at the Rendezvous. No doubt it will come up again this year. If you are there, you will probably hear all about it.

Most of the details of the story have been discussed on the LDM Forum. I posted the link earlier. Most of those details have been (independently) confirmed to me by people I trust.

Take care,

Joe

Joe---

I fully understand.

I guess it was the wrong time and/or place to bring up the obscuring of history, in the manner in which I did.

Thanks,
Don

I think your previous post, quote

This sounds like another case of our government obscurring history, under the guise of protecting it.

- may have led to misunderstanding, as it appeared to imply a government effort to obscure under guise of protection, which is not the case with the pit mine.  If you talk to the Forest Service, they seem to have an attitude quite different from "protecting" the Lost Dutchman, rather they seem to act as if they would rather there never was such a legend in the first place for all the nonsense and trouble that the legend has produced.  Just my own perception of attitudes, which could be completely mistaken.

Oroblanco
    <No sock coffee for Don Jose either!  >

Oro---

I get what you are saying.  The Forest Service always claims that the Supers are not a mineral zone, either.

But what I actually meant was, that because of their protection of the area, specifically archaeological items, and the "no dig" rules, anyone who actually does  find something historical may be reluctant to report it.  So, the public in general will go without knowing the true history of whatever, even if it is uncovered, if the finders don't report it.  And I can't say that I would blame anyone for not reporting it, under the circumstances, which I consider to be abuse of the liberties of U.S. Americans.

It seems that either nobody understood that, or it offended someone, or something else that I don't understand.  Or maybe I'm just going nuts.  I'm baffled by the weird reaction I got, that's all I know.

If you figure it out, let me know, OK?

 

.... But what I actually meant was, that because of their protection of the area, specifically archaeological items, and the "no dig" rules, anyone who actually does  find something historical may be reluctant to report it.  So, the public in general will go without knowing the true history of whatever, even if it is uncovered, if the finders don't report it.  And I can't say that I would blame anyone for not reporting it, under the circumstances, which I consider to be abuse of the liberties of U.S. Americans. ....

This is the reason so many searchers (treasure, artifacts, historical items) are constantly in stealth mode, whether anyone on this forum wishes to acknowledge the fact or not.  The arguements pro and con are manifold, but when you boil it down, there's a reluctance among the curious to accept the control imposed on their activities.  It's a trust issue, and as the empire continues its decline, Mr and Mrs JQ Average Citizen will notice its advancing sting on their tidy lives too.  By the way, the LDM is not the only cache/artifact site that is off-limits to the curious.  Most are, whether it be a wilderness area, a non-entry zone, a national site, a study area, or some other exclusion zone.   

Geeze ORO, and I did need that coffee, sniff 

As for any conspiracy on keeping the public out of certain areas, frankly I don't think that it is to keep secrets and lost mines to themselves as such, But to protect THEIR  land from the American public, which has proven time and again that they aren't 'house broken' yet.    Look at the graffiti etc in every public area.  In Az, at the rest stops they have literally stolen the plumbing and destroyed what they couldn't steal.  I have seen bags of garbage, dirty diapers, etc.  thrown on the ground, just a few meters from a trash can.  and on.

If you are involved in protecting our national  forests, parks or sites, it soon becomes your home and you resent or fight any thing that threatens it's beauty for you, especially the public, with reason. 

So if you can't train the public to live  like rational, clean, humans you look for ways to change the status of your area to help give you an edge, which they do.

In this case, I do not blame the gov't, but the public itself.  How many of you have had the privilege of spending two or more days gong into the back country, only to find tons of garbage, rusty old tin cans,  especially beer cans,  etc at most  good camping spots?  It doesn't take many episodes such as this to sour you on the Public.

As a kiddie, I had the unique privilege of being able to backpack into the high sierras of Northern Calif trout fishing, 6 - 8000 ft.  Many times there wouldn't be a sign that any human had ever been there, it was pristine.  A month or two would go by with no human contact, today ?  there are so many people, that you now need a permit, obtained at least 6 months in advance before trying to enter the same region.

Here in Mexico, when I first arrived, it was similar to stepping back into the old West of the late 1800's.  There were no fences,  roads, nor practically any people in the back country. it was almost complete freedom, and I loved it.  Yes, there were bandidos and other unique adventures, such as finding and gazing on abandoned villages, mines, and ranches of the 1700 - 1800's. Most just as they had left them.  Today almost where ever you wish to go, there are roads and new villages, sigh, my old west is fast disappearing. 

Don Jose de La Mancha

Geeze ORO, and I did need that coffee, sniff 

As for any conspiracy on keeping the public out of certain areas, frankly I don't think that it is to keep secrets and lost mines to themselves as such, But to protect THEIR  land from the American public, which has proven time and again that they aren't 'house broken' yet.    Look at the graffiti etc in every public area.  In Az, at the rest stops they have literally stolen the plumbing and destroyed what they couldn't steal.  I have seen bags of garbage, dirty diapers, etc.  thrown on the ground, just a few meters from a trash can.  and on.

If you are involved in protecting our national  forests, parks or sites, it soon becomes your home and you resent or fight any thing that threatens it's beauty for you, especially the public, with reason. 

So if you can't train the public to live  like rational, clean, humans you look for ways to change the status of your area to help give you an edge, which they do.

In this case, I do not blame the gov't, but the public itself.  How many of you have had the privilege of spending two or more days gong into the back country, only to find tons of garbage, rusty old tin cans,  especially beer cans,  etc at most  good camping spots?  It doesn't take many episodes such as this to sour you on the Public.

As a kiddie, I had the unique privilege of being able to backpack into the high sierras of Northern Calif trout fishing, 6 - 8000 ft.  Many times there wouldn't be a sign that any human had ever been there, it was pristine.  A month or two would go by with no human contact, today ?  there are so many people, that you now need a permit, obtained at least 6 months in advance before trying to enter the same region.

Here in Mexico, when I first arrived, it was similar to stepping back into the old West of the late 1800's.  There were no fences,  roads, nor practically any people in the back country. it was almost complete freedom, and I loved it.  Yes, there were bandidos and other unique adventures, such as finding and gazing on abandoned villages, mines, and ranches of the 1700 - 1800's. Most just as they had left them.  Today almost where ever you wish to go, there are roads and new villages, sigh, my old west is fast disappearing. 

Don Jose de La Mancha

RDT - I spent some time trying to put together a post this morning and couldn't find the words for what I wanted to say so deleted it.  I just logged on and saw your post above and was very happy to see someone else was able to do what I couldn't .

I often try to put my feet in another person's shoes to try to see things from their point of view, and that's an excellent way to view the whole "treasure hunting in wilderness areas" issue.

Those folks (rangers, etc...) get paid to do a job, and I would hazard a guess that dealing with treasure hunter issues is FAR FAR down the line of duties they have to do.  For the most part they are quite underpaid, overworked and understaffed to do most of what they are hired to do.  It doesn't come as any surprise that most if not all of them wish the LDM legends never existed - if I were in their positions, I'd likely feel the same way.

Keep in mind also that prior to the Superstitions being off limits to motorized vehicles and new mining claims, there was a pretty good amount of craziness going on out there!  Not to say that "stealth" activities aren't going on, but back in "the days" we know there was gunfire, folks setting off explosive charges in random areas of the mountains and other assorted looting and stuff going on - those are facts that can't be denied.

Perhaps there's a way treasure hunting can coexist legally within the constraints of government, but I don't think it's a priority.  I don't know the specifics of how it works, but I know at least some European countries give someone who finds a treasure fair value for their finds when they are turned in - the government keeps the find, but the party who found it at least gets some re-imbursement and "good press."  I doubt that will ever happen over here, but a compromise like that would probably go a long ways towards more cooperation.

Anyways - thanks for the post RDT - I liked it a lot.

RDT---

You are right, mostly.  Nobody wants to see a mess made of the great outdoors.

However, there are other ways to handle it, rather than taking away people's natural rights.

Many years ago, wherever you drove, you could see empty cans, bottles, and trash along the side of the road.  Nowdays, you don't see that.  What happened there?  It was handled in a way that didn't restrict people from using the roads!  While wilderness areas aren't the same as roads, there is a better way to handle things that what they are now doing!

The current restrictions on mineral and historic rights are downright illegal.

We are paying people very, very, good money to figure all this stuff out.  The blanket outlawing and confiscation, is the "easy way out," and takes no thinking or intelligence at all.  Got a problem?  Simple, just outlaw it.  And these government people are collecting salaries, great benefits, and retirement packages, for this?  Hah!  If were are paying them all this, I expect some kind of workable  solutions for our money!

Same thing for criminal laws and cops, from the top on down.  They just pick the easiest way to get their jobs done, with disregard for our rights, and collect their pay and overtime, plus benefits, plus fat retirements.  Until people start saying "no," do what we are paying you for.

If a person finds something historical, then they should profit from that.  How do we stop the wilderness from being torn up from unethical people trying to get rich quick, and messing it up?  We pay  people to work out something fair to solve those problems.  That requires them to actually think, which most of them seem reluctant to do.  That is totally unacceptable.

I would bet that you could give this problem to a class of 6th graders, and, given all the parameters, they could come up with a workable solution  within a couple of months, and probably more like a couple of weeks!  And within budget.  I'm totally serious about that.  Totally.



P.S.  I'm not saying that government workers are somehow trying to keep the LDM or other historic and mineral sites for themselves.  I'm saying that they are simply not bothering to think  things through, and come up with a solution that's workable for anyone but themselves.  The fact that they are handing land over to the Global Dictatorship known as the U.N., is another story, but not entirely.

 

Jose,

You hit the nail on the head.

It doesn't even have anything to do with "messing up the great outdoors" - It has to do with power - the government and their co-horts - ie:
Sierra Club, Nature's Conversancy and the like - was total control over "their" land.

You have hit on my biggest pet peeve - they use "saving" and "sensitive areas" and "environmentally important" and the like - to own our public
lands.

The 1872 mining law gives us the RIGHT - not the privilege - but the RIGHT to enter on public lands in the search of minerals.  This is the REAL reason why they want to get rid of it.  Its not because it is outdated - it is not because they need to change with the times - its because it is the
one thing - the one LAST thing, that keeps the public land in the public domain for our use.  Once they dump that - we lose it all.

If you need any proof of the government wanting all the riches, too - one only has to look at Victorio Peak, and the entire mess that turned out to be.  And now, someone has paid money to go look again - someone who is not even a relative to the Noss family - who, technically, still hold the rights - but, money talks. (and the government knows that anything there went into private pockets a long time ago).

We have been losing our rights, one right after the other - and we do nothing - in fact, we help - because everyone has something they don't think is right - so, its ok to make a law on that - trouble is, with all the millions of folks thinking one thing is ok, we end up with 20 million laws that restrict everything we do - from whether or not you can pat your kid on the butt, to what you can use your own home for, to what color you can paint it - to what time you have to turn your music off  - to the government - federal, state and local, controlling every single little thing you do.

And, I bet I have hit on something that someone reading this has said - oh, well, I can understand that - which means now you know why everything is illegal -

If we do not take our public lands back - we will die out as a breed - and we will be at the mercy of other countries for one more thing - precious metals.  We are already 98% indebted for the rare earths that you use for your computers and your magnets - which equate to certain motors, too.  Pretty soon, we will only be able to be "servants" to the world - because they will control every speck of wealth - which will be the total and complete downfall of the US.

Beth

I'm assuming that at some point, a long time ago, someone thought they were doing something good - but that is NOT what is happening.

The government lies and cheats to take land - and, if you cannot use something, then it is effectively - taken away.  Letting some people use it (the land) is not the same as everyone - the people - having public land.

Cubber, I see that we do think alike,  gracias        one for that modified, cheap, stingy, self centered,  sheep herder.



EE:  For the LDM area alone, such as we have been discssing in here, just how many people would it take to keep the public in line and safe, and where would they get them, or with what??  Heck they can't even stop an occasional killing, or someone over stepping their personal safety limit, let alone destruction of valuable sites.  

They establish reasonable rules for you to follow or to work on your theory, but, as is normal, they do require some 'reasonable' proof before they allow you to say 'blow Weavers needle up'.  In fact, if they hadn't stepped in, it would be gone already.

Until the public shows some responsibility they 'will' be discriminated against.  You yourself, would be at the head of the line complaining on policing the porcine members of the human race.  

Just look at what unthinking people did to the the sphinx.

As for the UN, ugh don't get me started

Don Jose de La Mancha.

Beth, where is my coffee?   That cheapskate, dirty sock making coffee, doggie pillowed hubby of yours wouldn't give me any.

EE:  For the LDM area alone, such as we have been discssing in here, just how many people would it take to keep the public in line and safe, and where would they get them, or with what??  Heck they can't even stop an occasional killing, or someone over stepping their personal safety limit, let alone destruction of valuable sites.  

Who says it would take more people?  Or more money?  Like I mentioned, you don't see the trash dumped on the roadsides anymore, do you?

The wilderness is different than the roads, but there is a better way than restricting people from it.  How should it be done?---Well, like I also said, they should be able to figure out something better if they even tried  to.  That's what their top people are getting paid very well for.

But, by all the signs of it, there are other intentions  involved, rather than just their being too lazy to think of better ways.

EVening EE:  You posted -->you don't see the trash dumped on the roadsides anymore, do you?
***********
You certainly do, mostly inside of huge, black, plastic bags along side of the road, having been picked up by a crew.

Help me to bug the sheep herder for coffee my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

EE THer wrote

It seems that either nobody understood that, or it offended someone, or something else that I don't understand.  Or maybe I'm just going nuts.  I'm baffled by the weird reaction I got, that's all I know.

If you figure it out, let me know, OK?

There is always a weird reaction whenever details are discussed about the Pit mine; the secret is out, but no one wants to name any names either.  As Joe stated, if you should make it to one of the Dutch Hunter rendezvous, you will get more details 'from the horses mouth'.  Many are convinced it is the LDM, others remain unconvinced. 

I have got it fairly well figured out, you will if you have not already.
Oroblanco

PS forget about any sock coffee Don Jose, my sheep-sneering fellow, yours will have a "special" flavor at the campfire.   
 

There is always a weird reaction whenever details are discussed about the Pit mine; the secret is out, but no one wants to name any names either.  As Joe stated, if you should make it to one of the Dutch Hunter rendezvous, you will get more details 'from the horses mouth'.  Many are convinced it is the LDM, others remain unconvinced. 

I have got it fairly well figured out, you will if you have not already.
Oroblanco

Do I remember someone mentioning ore samples which matched the LDM?

Jose,

No coffee for you - if you think that people acting responsibly will stop our government from taking our land and keeping us off it.

I am NOT a student of punishing all for the actions of a few.

If you think that we should just stop the doo-doo heads that do stupid things, that's a different story.

But - hey - if its oil in the gulf that will kill things for years - and someone can make big bucks - then, those folks aren't stopped.  Now, just how does that work?

This same government who is "stopping folks from blowing up Weaver's Needle" have closed off millions of acres to us - prospectors, metal detectorists and miners - but, by golly, for a few million dollars, even though I cannot have anything even battery operated, they can race cars through the exact same areas - - I just do not believe that the government is protecting anything - the only thing they are protecting - is their wallets.


Beth

EE THer wrote

Do I remember someone mentioning ore samples which matched the LDM?

Perhaps you are misreading or mis-remembering what was posted?  All I said was that the fellows who worked at the Pit mine, had gold to show for their efforts. 

In my own book, that <gold> has greater importance than the rather transitory honor of having been "the" person to find the LDM.  The only person in my opinion who had ore samples that matched Dutchman ore, was Walt Gassler, plenty disagree with me on that and there are lengthy discussions here and on the LDGM forum as well.  I take Tom Kollenborn's word on it that gold shown to him appeared to match Dutchman ore, which others do not accept as enough evidence. 

I am sure that plenty of LDM hunters only seek the honors of having found it, but to me the wealth holds a greater importance and whether a rich gold mine is the "real" LDM or just a rich gold mine makes very little difference to me.  Who remembers the name of the fellow who found the lost Josephine mine today, for instance?  Maybe some fame and fortune would accrue from being widely recognized as the discoverer of the Lost Dutchman gold mine, but I would not be willing to place any bets on it.     

<A subtle hint here for that fellow who re-discovered the Tayopa mine complex not so long ago too - don't let all that precious metal go to waste!  The fame may well fade with time my fickle one-time amigo, but that gold and silver won't.  I realize it is as good as money in the bank as it is safe in the rock, but...>


Don (if I may be so informal EE THer) I would like to ask you an hypothetical question - if you discovered a very rich vein of gold, enough that it would make you financially set for life, would you really care if people called it the Easter Bunny mine or the Lost Dutchman?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

  hot sock coffee for all, except one ex-San Quentin chain-gang fellow who shall remain un-named (but we all know who) 

......  We have been losing our rights, one right after the other - and we do nothing - in fact, we help - because everyone has something they don't think is right - so, its ok to make a law on that - trouble is, with all the millions of folks thinking one thing is ok, we end up with 20 million laws that restrict everything we do - from whether or not you can pat your kid on the butt, to what you can use your own home for, to what color you can paint it - to what time you have to turn your music off  - to the government - federal, state and local, controlling every single little thing you do. .....

Right you are, Beth.  Ever hear about the happy frog in the stewpot?  Start with tepid water and heat it up, increasing the temperature ever so slowly.  Eventually, before he knows it, the frog is cooked. 

The rights and freedoms we Americans esteem were granted to our forebears because those in charge at the time knew it was the most expedient way to claim, conquer and develop the 'empty' continent.  'Go west, young man'.  No restrictions, few laws, free land.  Go get it - discover the minerals, construct the railroads, harvest the timber, build the cities. The feeding frenzy essentially ended in 1913 when all lands were controlled, the resources were seized, the natives had been removed and the Credit and Interest money machine was cranked up to bleed the descendents of those worker bees who did all the heavy lifting (us).  The fire was lit under the stewpot.  Now, 100 years later, guess what?  Those rights and freedoms have slowly been eroded, the powers that be have tightened their leashes here (for some good reasons), the worker bees are hopelessly in debt with little recourse and the focus has relocated to the Far East where there is a new continent to develop.  Laws and regulations?  The Man has been pi$$ing on your leg so long, you think it's just raining.

HMMM no cottin pickin coffee?? That puts me in a foul mood, grrrrr


Beth sniff and here I have stood up in bloody battle in yer honor snifff.  --  If I may suggest, what land would you be free to prospect on and deface today if the gov hadn't made it into the various protected reserves.  It would be like Europe or England, it would be all privately owned.  so there   

As for --> If you think that we should just stop the doo-doo heads that do stupid things, that's a different story.

Never heard of what makes a Stallion ?  hmm  might work for oro also?

Oro:  Tayopa is waiting, when are you gonna brave the gov't and the weird narcos (Sinaloa Cartel) to open it up?  Pooches welcome naturally, as for that back biting, mean, thankless escapee from a African harem, that would withhold coffee from a genuine dying addict, sigh only if you guarantee to beat her with a stick twice daily, AFTER she has delivered the coffee..

Springfield, the land originally belonged to the gov't, they opened it up to develop it then retained certain sectors for the future to see just what
the orig had .

Don jose de La Mancha  (the atavist that lives in the cave at the end of the trail, contemplating his navel)

I take Tom Kollenborn's word on it that gold shown to him appeared to match Dutchman ore, which others do not accept as enough evidence. 

Not to derail this, but I thought a few months ago Tom didn't recall saying that it matched?

...if you discovered a very rich vein of gold, enough that it would make you financially set for life, would you really care if people called it the Easter Bunny mine or the Lost Dutchman?

Nope!

Don

......  We have been losing our rights, one right after the other - and we do nothing - in fact, we help - because everyone has something they don't think is right - so, its ok to make a law on that - trouble is, with all the millions of folks thinking one thing is ok, we end up with 20 million laws that restrict everything we do - from whether or not you can pat your kid on the butt, to what you can use your own home for, to what color you can paint it - to what time you have to turn your music off  - to the government - federal, state and local, controlling every single little thing you do. .....

Right you are, Beth.  Ever hear about the happy frog in the stewpot?  Start with tepid water and heat it up, increasing the temperature ever so slowly.  Eventually, before he knows it, the frog is cooked.  

The rights and freedoms we Americans esteem were granted to our forebears because those in charge at the time knew it was the most expedient way to claim, conquer and develop the 'empty' continent.  'Go west, young man'.  No restrictions, few laws, free land.  Go get it - discover the minerals, construct the railroads, harvest the timber, build the cities. The feeding frenzy essentially ended in 1913 when all lands were controlled, the resources were seized, the natives had been removed and the Credit and Interest money machine was cranked up to bleed the descendents of those worker bees who did all the heavy lifting (us).  The fire was lit under the stewpot.  Now, 100 years later, guess what?  Those rights and freedoms have slowly been eroded, the powers that be have tightened their leashes here (for some good reasons), the worker bees are hopelessly in debt with little recourse and the focus has relocated to the Far East where there is a new continent to develop.  Laws and regulations?  The Man has been pi$$ing on your leg so long, you think it's just raining.

I have known a few con-artists, of various types, over the years.  The one thing they all have in common is their motto:  "If anyone is stupid enough to believe me, then they deserve to lose their money."

Their second one is:  "People get ripped off only because of their own greed."

While true, these sayings are merely self-excuses for a person to harm others.

It takes two to make a crime, a perpetrator and a victim.  When each try to put the total blame on the other, it just continues the whole thing.  When people begin to take full responsibility, this stuff begins to disappear.

But everyone has been taught, for such a long time, that it's all the criminals' fault, that it gets to the point that the concept of responsibility has pretty much been stomped out.  Our society has come to the point of considering, essentially, that "God created government to control us all because we cannot control ourselves."  But that just makes it worse.  And results in all the ridiculous laws we now have, and the necessity of having to pay specialists just to know and interpret all of those laws, because there are so many that it's impossible for any average person even have the time to become familiar with all of them.

But I think that people in general are starting to wake up these days.  It's to the point that governments have to invent problems, to try and make people believe that they are absolutely necessary.  So much so that it is becoming obvious.

Meanwhile, if the LDM did exist, I think it's possible to locate it, if the chaff can be separated.  My opinion is that if it can be established where Waltz entered the Supers, and how long he was in there to pick up some ore, and where he exited, that these are probably among the best clues.  Even though he may have had a few different entrances and exits, for use at various times and for various reasons, the best clues are probably there.

The Apache Junction Public Library maps might provide some general clues to the area, but if they show the LDM, it would mean that several different people, at different times, would have had to know where it was, which presents a problem in itself.  But since several of them seem to agree on whatever it is that they show, it tends to corroborate that something of interest was in that area.  Whether one of these "somethings" was the LDM, is anybody's guess, but there is some  probability of it being among these sites.

Unless it has already been found elsewhere.

 

allo Gals & gentsmen: it was posted-->A subtle hint here for that fellow who re-discovered
the Tayopa mine complex not so long ago too - don't let all that precious metal go to waste!  
The fame may well fade with time my fickle one-time amigo, but that gold and silver won't.  
I realize it is as good as money in the bank as it is safe in the rock, but...>

-->if you discovered a very rich vein of gold, enough that it would make you financially set for
 life, would you really care if people called it the Easter Bunny mine or the Lost Dutchman?
***************
Hmm, would the result of 20 assays come close to qualfiying?

 Ag 27.7,  Ag 303,  Cu 7959,  Pb 302.8 , Zn 746. in grams.  32grms = 1 Oz.


Don Jose de La Mancha.

32grms = 1 Oz.

Don Jose de La Mancha.

It's closer to 31.1 gm....

 

[$1400/ton net recoverable value]

allo Gals & gentsmen: it was posted-->A subtle hint here for that fellow who re-discovered
the Tayopa mine complex not so long ago too - don't let all that precious metal go to waste!  
The fame may well fade with time my fickle one-time amigo, but that gold and silver won't.  
I realize it is as good as money in the bank as it is safe in the rock, but...>

-->if you discovered a very rich vein of gold, enough that it would make you financially set for
 life, would you really care if people called it the Easter Bunny mine or the Lost Dutchman?
***************
Hmm, would the result of 20 assays come close to qualyfying?

 Ag 27.7,  Ag 303,  Cu 7959,  Pb 302.8 , Zn 746. in grams.  32grms = 1 Oz.


Don Jose de La Mancha.

Gold: 27.7 g/31.1 g/tr oz = 0.9 tr oz/ton x 1500 $US/tr oz = 1336 $US/ton delivered to refinery.
Silver: 303 g/31.1 g/tr oz = 9.7 tr oz/ton x 36 $US/tr oz = 349 $US/ton delivered to refinery.
Copper: 7959 g/31.1 g/tr oz/14.6 tr oz/lb = 17.5 lb/ton x 4 $US/lb = 70 $US/ton delivered to refinery.
Lead/Zinc: disregard.

Ore gross value = $1750/ton, more or less, based on today's metal prices.
Looks like fairly complex ore: call it 80% recovery at the refinery (?) = 0.80(1750) = $1400/ton net recoverable value.  

Net: Good ore in quantity, but ore is still in the ground.  Subtract cost to mine the ore, cost to ship the ore, cost to finance the operation, refiner's percentage and any other costs.  One-ounce gold mine - pretty good on paper.  

I take Tom Kollenborn's word on it that gold shown to him appeared to match Dutchman ore, which others do not accept as enough evidence. 

Not to derail this, but I thought a few months ago Tom didn't recall saying that it matched?

Paul,

That is correct.......He said it to me.

Take care,

Joe

I take Tom Kollenborn's word on it that gold shown to him appeared to match Dutchman ore, which others do not accept as enough evidence. 

Not to derail this, but I thought a few months ago Tom didn't recall saying that it matched?

The way I remembered it, CJ posted that... Tom said he didn't recall ever seeing Gassler's gold, but I wasn't sure so I looked it up.

Jim





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Re: with all you think you knew
Reply To This Topic #109 Posted Today at 09:13:23 AM
   
Reply with quoteQuote
Roy and Paul,

Just for the record, Tom does not recall ever actually seeing the fake Gassler ore. As he remembers it, Mr. phony claimed to have some ore.....Not shown!
"That happen over twenty years ago and I have forgotten some of the details."
Knowing Tom as I do, I have serious doubts he would have forgotten seeing
"alleged" Dutchman ore.

I believe you can take that to the bank, but you may want to pursue that line for something better than Tom's word's today. It's more than enough for me.

Take care, friends!

Joe

Gentsmen, Ladies: I use the 32 :1  as a crude comparative of field gold. Not pure gold which would hit the 31.1 range. Dore would be even less.

Springfield, that particular mine lies in the flat land, 400 meters from a state maintained all weather asphalt road and hi tension power lines.  35 miles to a rr shipping center, 50 miles to Obregon, Sonora, a major city with full facilities, & 5 miles from a labor center, in other words,  a little dream mine.

If processing, other than hi grading,  is desired,  it can be hauled to La Sabina mine, 25 miles further south on the same road, with full facilities.

This is the Tayopa back up mine.   Keep beans in the pot while finishing the Tayopa.

This  was in answer to Oro's question.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. High assay -->  Au 48.1,  Ag 2800,  Cu 8584,  Pb 8200, Zn 3904.

For the record, Tom DID say he saw the Gassler ore - did not do any testing or anything like that - but, in his opinion, it looked like it was similar ore.

Beth

For those who care, here is the direct quote, from Tom Kollenborn, on Unsolved Mysteries - taken from the Unsolved Mysteries transcript:


QUOTE

“He said he was Roland Gassler, Walt Gassler’s son.  And he says, well you know my dad found the Lost Dutchman in the Superstitions and he got out this gold and showed it too me.  It looked very similar to the gold that allegedly came out of the Lost Dutchman mine.”UNQUOTE



Beth

For the record, Tom DID say he saw the Gassler ore - did not do any testing or anything like that - but, in his opinion, it looked like it was similar ore.

Beth

Beth,

I can only relate what Tom told me, but we talked earlier today and I will give him a call tomorrow. I don't take notes or record any of our conversations, so I may make some mistakes in repeating what was said, later.

I don't believe Tom ever said he saw Gassler's ore. If the story that has been told......by others, is true, he saw ore that someone claiming to be Walt Gassler's son showed him. If that story is true, it originates in a lie.

Tom does not like to get involved in these little intrigues that the forums thrive on, so he stays out of debates. He likes to offer his opinions on things relating to the Superstition Mountains and the LDM, which is exactly what prompted him to leave DUSA. His opinion ruffled some feathers.

IMHO, No one, that I can think of, is better qualified to offer those opinions than Tom.

Can you tell me the source you used for Tom's statement?  Two of the people that I often quote here, have made their statements directly to me in person, on the phone or in email's. Those two would be Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin. If I make a mistake, and someone points it out to me, I will go back to the source and correct my error.

Take care friend,

Joe

I see you just gave your source. The fake Roland showed Tom some ore.  He has no way of knowing if it came from the Superstitions or Walt Gassler.

Joe

Hello, Joe,

Certainly - the one quote is from the archives of the Unsolved Mysteries segment that Tom did. (which is why I gave the credits to the show).

The second one is what Tom said at the rendezvous.

I had always thought - since the Unsolved Mysteries show (and I still have it on VHS) that he did say that.  I have no wish to bother Tom with all
the little intriques we have, either.  That's why I quoted what he had said on the show.

Now, I don't know about you - but, I figure that, since the show was quite awhile ago, my memory has gotten worse since I first saw the segment, and I'm just making the assumption that,  most of us would have  better memory 20 years ago then we have now . 

I'm old enough now where I have to check and re-check what I hear - or where - I have heard something!   

Beth

I should add the part of the inventory picture, since many believe there was no such thing as a backpack found with Gassler.


Beth

... Springfield, that particular mine lies in the flat land, 400 meters from a state maintained all weather asphalt road and hi tension power lines.  35 miles to a rr shipping center, 50 miles to Obregon, Sonora, a major city with full facilities, & 5 miles from a labor center, in other words,  a little dream mine.....

No offence intended, RdTTT, but why aren't you exploiting it now?

HI Springfield:  You posted -->why aren't you exploiting it now?
**************
As you well know it takes permits, permits, permits  and permits as well as the financing.  
It is progressing one step at a time. also I am extending the titled property to include an additional
150 Hectares on the extension of the basic vein structure.

At the moment there is just a hole in the ground, no equipment  etc. but plenty of ore blocked out
with large proven reserves.  Accompanying plan is a suggestion by the mining engineer for the
preliminary phase to self develop the capital.

We can hyper hi=grade to start with, or go for a State / Fed loan with the title up for the security.

It has taken back seat to Tayopa, until this year.

Suggestions? 

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Apol peeps  for side tracking, but I appreciate Springfiled's advice.

HI Springfield:  You posted -->why aren't you exploiting it now?
**************
As you well know it takes permits, permits, permits  and permits as well as the financing.  
It is progressing one step at a time. also I am extending the titled property to include an additional
150 Hectares on the extension of the basic vein structure.

At the moment there is just a hole in the ground, no equipment  etc. but plenty of ore blocked out
with large proven reserves.  Accompanying plan is a suggestion by the mining engineer for the
preliminary phase to self develop the capital.

We can hyper hi=grade to start with, or go for a State / Fed loan with the title up for the security.

It has taken back seat to Tayopa, until this year.

Suggestions? 

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Apol peeps  for side tracking, but I appreciate Springfiled's advice.

I would attempt to lease or sell the property.  I know you tried this in the past with no resolution, but IMO, this may be your best chance at making money.  The big boys won't be interested in a small property, but maybe you can find a small/medium contractor who is willing to fight the good fight and pay you a percentage.  Finding someone with the proper connections is the best bet.  Good luck.

We'll, there it is folks......the true location of The Lost Dutchman Goldmine(s).   Plenty of color and plenty far away from where Old Jacob has kept everyone looking safe all of this time.  This place is where the simple Peralta Tablets show one where to go using just chicken scratch;  start where the tablets were dug up and head on up to this area like they say.  You just go West a little ways from the tablet dig and then hang a right up onto the old Apache Trail and your there.  Your looking for a monstrous and wise old saguaro cactus who stands by the river at the north like the ghost of a priest. He stands looking over the dry burro pasture, once fed by the spring in the heart of Fresco

What?? No 'X' to mark the spot??
*chuckles*

Here ya go

Ahhh, thank you! That's ever so much better ...
Hmmm - that 'X' is fairly 'thick' - meaning it has some 'play' on it ...
In my humble opinion, it is another 'opinion' as to where it may be, but as Oro always says "show us the gold".

That being said - it is bang-smack where a lot of people have a lot of faith in a possible position. I do hope you can make something out of it :-)
I would just l-o-v-e someone to finally prove it has been found! (Should save some few lives if nothing else!!)

 

Geesh - I can't be TOOOOOO specific, you know!!   


Beth

HIO Beth: to a point, welcome to the crowd.  hehehehehh   No show me the gold ? 
Sorry Loke back to your OUIJI board.  smickerr

Don Jose de  la Mancha

Dang it!!
And here was me seriously thinking someone had finally 'let it slip'!! ;-)

Loke - "Let it slip" - come now, have you not been keeping up with the persons whom have already announced the discovery of the Lost Dutchman mine?  Some have posted clear GPS coordinates and Google satellite imagery that pinpoints the spot.   

I can't say what the reason is that no two of these sites match each other. 

Oroblanco

 

Loke - "Let it slip" - come now, have you not been keeping up with the persons whom have already announced the discovery of the Lost Dutchman mine?  Some have posted clear GPS coordinates and Google satellite imagery that pinpoints the spot.   

I can't say what the reason is that no two of these sites match each other. 

Oroblanco

 

Ohhh NO!! Are you telling me that 'IT' has been found allready? .. and by more than one?
*big sigh*
Well then, what's the point of lingering around here? Maybe I should scoot over to the Tayopa forum (as suggested by some impertinent soul a while back) ..
Hmmm - that's right - Tayopa has been found as well.

What about the LAD? Any takers?

nahhh - guess it will have to be Blackbeard!

Yall have a good day now - hear!

Loke - "Let it slip" - come now, have you not been keeping up with the persons whom have already announced the discovery of the Lost Dutchman mine?  Some have posted clear GPS coordinates and Google satellite imagery that pinpoints the spot.   

I can't say what the reason is that no two of these sites match each other. 

Oroblanco

 

Ohhh NO!! Are you telling me that 'IT' has been found allready? .. and by more than one?
*big sigh*
Well then, what's the point of lingering around here? Maybe I should scoot over to the Tayopa forum (as suggested by some impertinent soul a while back) ..
Hmmm - that's right - Tayopa has been found as well.

What about the LAD? Any takers?

nahhh - guess it will have to be Blackbeard!

Yall have a good day now - hear!

Sorry but I could not resist amigo. I am a little surprised that none of the several whom have claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman jumped in to say something.  That alone kind of says something doesn't it?     Maybe one or more will pipe up, if given a bit of urging? 

As to Tayopa - that is very much a case of yes and no isn't it?  One does seem to be found, but the others?  The trouble there is that several different locations were tagged with that name, which has led to confusion (including my own) and as a result only one can really be said to be absolutely 'pinned' so to speak. 

Funny thing about Blackbeard; strange coincidence but the NPS laid claim to a site known to have been used by him in NC.  I suppose that is not to prevent a treasure hunter from locating and recovering any hidden treasures right?   

The Lost Adams is a whole 'nother' kettle of fish too.  I guess that since all of these fabulous lost mines and treasures have all been found and were long ago cleaned out (leaving no gold) we can just forget about them.   
http://youtu.be/rSjK2Oqrgic




Oroblanco

 

tons of them still exist oro.
La gloria Pan
El Narajal
Orig Tayopa @ guayopita / guaynopa
La Tarasca
Las Pimas
Los placers de Tepoca, and the village / church of Tepoca
Los Placers el rio Yaqui
Why is there a large mooring ring in a cliff  on upper baja in the sea de Cortez  A trail leads inland for what and to where?
Lost mine on the upper Sea of Cortes on the mainland
Lost gold mine / placer on San Estaban island. Very rich
Placer gold on the rio San Lorenzo
The Apache  bench placer , very  very rich.  South side of the Yaqui
The placer of 20 ounces
Zimmerman's ship with the hold fulll of gold bars.
Comwell's ship remains, now being buried under sand, no longer in water. Still finding gold coins in the sand.
the Manilla galleon in costa rica port
German submarine.,
and of course our lost pearl ship

And on for a hundred pages more.  Plenty left, all very rich..  

Don Jose de La Mancha

OMG!!
 What a wonderful thing the Internet is!

Placer gold on the rio San Lorenzo

Where google led me to:

He was missionary to the Acaxee Indian tribe in and around the Rio San Lorenzo, ... In l849, Audubon was leading a group of men to the gold fields of ...

Surely - I've got a hit here!
Accordingly - I went to the destination - without _really_ looking at the url ...
www.americanfishes.com/mexico/history.htm

And you can see for yourself where you end up

*chuckles*

Don Jose - you skipped one (at least) Vainopa?  I realize there is very little documentation or even clues to get started, but as far as I know, no one has found it or even claimed to have by satellite images.  Maybe it is not rich enough to attract anyone to look for it?

Loke - admit it now, you have a secret craving for fresh caught Golden Trout!      Pan fried, perhaps in butter, by streamside?  Or do you prefer baked, with a side of baked potato?  <I sure look forward to doing some trout fishing soon!>

Oroblanco

 

Roy,

Many years ago I worked with an old timer who used to tell me that he had a favorite spot in the High Sierras that he liked to hike into, through the snow, and camp. It was beside a wonderful stream that was full of Golden Trout. It was frozen over, except for where he camped. At that spot, a warm spring flowed into the stream and melted the ice.

He would set up camp and fish that same spot every year. His limit was dictated by how hungry he was. He packed in a frying pan, butter, flour and a little garlic salt. As I recall, he was close to eighty, still working and looked like he was forty. It's a story and image that has stuck with me for four decades.......Golden Trout laid out in the snow, just waiting for the frying pan to get hot.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
Come out and visit me and we'll slog in to a spot where the cut-throats will be just as nice.
can't lay them out in the snow,  but I agree, a nice breakfast of fresh trout is unbeatable.

Ok - I know I'm way off the subject here - but trout ...
Yup - I've got (at least) 3 surefire ways of doin'em
1) gut and spice, put them into the snow (air is still above freezing!) for 4-5 days, then eat raw with a dash of whisky
2) lotsa butter in a pan - and 'cook' them trouts in butter - oh myyyyyy
3) layer of coarse salt, layer of trout, salt, trout, salt, trout, salt. Leave in airtight container for 3 months, wash in milk and then eat it raw

Ok - I know I'm way off the subject here - but trout ...
Yup - I've got (at least) 3 surefire ways of doin'em
1) gut and spice, put them into the snow (air is still above freezing!) for 4-5 days, then eat raw with a dash of whisky
2) lotsa butter in a pan - and 'cook' them trouts in butter - oh myyyyyy
3) layer of coarse salt, layer of trout, salt, trout, salt, trout, salt. Leave in airtight container for 3 months, wash in milk and then eat it raw

I'll stick with #2 if that's ok 

Actually I prefer freshly caught Canadian walleye, pan friend with potatos and onions over an open fire on a deserted island in the middle of an Ontario lake in early spring with a little snow coming down.  Add a can of peaches and an ice cold beer and it's as close to perfection as I've seen .

fishun, is fishun, is fishun, no matter where, is good - if you are catching any.  Just like lost mine hunting.   but I do favor above 6-7000 ft in June or especially in late Oct  sigh  drool.  If your bait, lure, or fly doesn't work, just catch a pan full with your hands.  Once I forgot my rod, can you believe it?  and had to catch them by hand or abort the trip.  I enjoyed two weeks there.  snicker.   Only thing missing was oro's maneating hounds for company.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Loke wrote

...then eat raw...

What! Sushi?  I don't know if I could find courage to try that one!   

Cubfan - that sure sounds good too, have never tried Walleye but have had their cousins Yellow Perch, some mighty tasty fish! When you said fried potatoes and onions, I presume fried raw potatoes?  I love them too!

Joe - I hope that when (or rather IF) I reach that same age, I will be able to do like your old timer friend.  I don't know what it is about fresh caught fish, cooked up right beside the water but (personal opinion) it is some of the best eating there is.

Much of my life I have had to wait for the 'fishing season' to open in spring, now live where that is not a problem just have to get the free time and go.  Have to try a local lake near us (Angostura) as it is supposedly "the" spot for Walleyes too. 

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

fishun, is fishun, is fishun, no matter where, is good - if you are catching any.  Just like lost mine hunting.   but I do favor above 6-7000 ft in June or especially in late Oct  sigh  drool.  If your bait, lure, or fly doesn't work, just catch a pan full with your hands.  Once I forgot my rod, can you believe it?  and had to catch them by hand or abort the trip.  I enjoyed two weeks there.  snicker.   Only thing missing was oro's maneating hounds for company.

Can't say I ever tried catching them bare-handed; have used safety pins or a spear.  One of the best meals of my life was a plate of fresh caught fat cutthroats Beth got with just a bare shiny pin for bait (nothing could be found) the fish were so willing to bite that no bait was needed.  Planning to visit that spot this summer, haven't been there in over twenty years; not much in the way of gold in that creek but some mighty nice cutthroats!

Maneating?  While I do have a number of scars from their gentle little 'nips', to this day they have not eaten anyone!     You are not helping me promote that breed as household pets amigo, which except for a few small almost un-noticeable habits like fighting, biting, etc, sled dogs would be very good for. Won't you agree? I think you need a pack team for your own home, still working on talking you into it.     <Now that I think about it, from what little I know of your personality, it might be a very good match-up.>

My apologies to our readers for having carried the topic away from the title.  Not much fishing is possible in the Superstitions, at least the wilderness part.

Have to sign off, will probably stop by later, I hope you all have a very pleasant day - you have filled me with ideas! 
Roy

 

Am posting a webpage that shows the supposed location of The Sombrero Mine, and 'clues' to find mines in the Sups.
Any suggestions on why the posting doesn't show?

http://www.thesombreromine.com 

www.thesombreromine.com

Many of the mines have 'trail symbols' visable with Google Earth.   The symbols do not lead to prospects, but to actual
mines with ore.   If the mine has been played out the symbols would have been removed.
I have been in this part of the Sups. and am interested if anyone else has.   There are several mines here including the
Sombrero.

No posts yet?  Very good presentation my friend.


Don Jose de La Mancha

Here ya go

Giant Fish...........

Now that your paying attention, Mrs. Oroblanco is hot on it.  Just go right and look for the best fishing holes in the area and your there.  Huge channel cats over that way and the lost Dutchman just for fun.