LDM why you can't get it !

There are as many stories about it as there are theories of who the skull belonged to.

That's what I like about the "maps approach."  At least they don't continually change over the years!

But they will always have the "dime-a-dozen" problem....

Loke:

Cottonwood Creek and Hidden Water on 1907 Topo
Above present day location of Canyon Lake

Regards:SH.

ps:...for Paul:
       ..you once questioned the location of Cottonwood Canyon?
       ..seems a possibility that Cottonwood Creek would follow a canyon by the same name in 1907.

Thanks Wayne - Tom Kollenborn told me about that Cottonwood Canyon not long after I asked about it.  I knew about it being N of the Salt River, but for some reason I had it in my head that there was another canyon in the Superstitions known as Cottonwood Canyon other than the one on the S side of Tortilla Mt. and slightly N of Peter's Mesa.  I must have imagined that (or gotten the idea confused with Willow Spring) because I haven't found the reference anywhere.

How was your trip last month?  Hope you had a good time.

Me thinks that a lot hinges on whether or not Holmes went to Hidden Water first - or if it took him 5 years to do it. If it was at Hidden Water where he followed Waltz and he went straight there - he can't have got much out of old Jacob.
On the other hand - if it took him 5 years, it must almost have been an act of desperation ... not being successful at whatever he got out of the old man.

Loke,

That's a good point there.

At one time or another, I have thought both ways - that's where Holmes lost Waltz, and maybe, that's where Waltz told him he buried the body.

However, thinking beyond that - it could also be that Waltz did not tell him the truth, about anything - or only a part truth - or maybe Waltz was
a little out of it - or a lot out of it - and screwed it up NOT on purpose, but it didn't get across to Holmes correctly.  There are so many possible variations on that, that Holmes may have gone there just to see if he could pick up where he left off earlier, and then follow whatever clues he could from Waltz's story.

We know where Waltz tried to take Julia - but she screwed it up, too.  And, there is always the "clue" where Waltz says that he would almost have to take someone there, because that mine is so hard to find.  And, why would you be able to drive a pack train over it if you had to hang off a cliff?

I think that's where you have to figure out the "trick in the trail".

Beth

Loke,

That's a good point there.

At one time or another, I have thought both ways - that's where Holmes lost Waltz, and maybe, that's where Waltz told him he buried the body.

However, thinking beyond that - it could also be that Waltz did not tell him the truth, about anything - or only a part truth - or maybe Waltz was
a little out of it - or a lot out of it - and screwed it up NOT on purpose, but it didn't get across to Holmes correctly.  There are so many possible variations on that, that Holmes may have gone there just to see if he could pick up where he left off earlier, and then follow whatever clues he could from Waltz's story.

We know where Waltz tried to take Julia - but she screwed it up, too.  And, there is always the "clue" where Waltz says that he would almost have to take someone there, because that mine is so hard to find.  And, why would you be able to drive a pack train over it if you had to hang off a cliff?

I think that's where you have to figure out the "trick in the trail".

Beth

Beth,
*chuckles* You are ever so right of course! To _me_ - actions speak louder than words, but as you so correctly point out - he could have got everything, something or nothing - and we still wont know *sigh*
Guess we are right back to square-one again on that one!

cubfan64,
I have been closer to the mine, I am only posting pictures that show the site.   I am posting my information for those that know the clues,
(Indian, Mexicans and others) and if they can see enough to warrant a trip there for themselves.   As you know from JHs post on 'his' forums, my story has no merit, this is not the location, and pictures will not prove anything.   He is the expert after all. 

Real de Tayopa
I think this tailings pile is in the 'funnel shaped pit'.   Per the stories, the ore was removed from the shaft and taken over a little rise into
this pit.   It is possible the mules could be brought up to this point on the ledge, there is alot of brush there now and I did not enter the ledge from this side.

Ancientones - if we seem to be very skeptical about what you have said, keep in mind how you might react if someone sent you on a wild goose chase and then got a somewhat similar story.  I don't know how many of us here have been sent on such a hike (some may not be willing to admit it) but after one such experience you get to be pretty skeptical when someone says "here is the LDM" and want to see more proof before you jump into the pickup.  Nothing personal about it, just don't wish to go hunting the wild fowl - life is too short and we usually have our own ideas about where to look. 

If you should decide to post photos shot closer up, I for one would appreciate it.  Perhaps something can be made out in a closer photo that would help indicate ore,mineralization etc?  Just an idea.

****To any newbies reading our discussion and not posting, please use due caution and always go well prepared into any desert or wilderness.  Don't depend on gadgetry (GPS) learn how to use a map and compass.  I won't bore you with more warnings, just use your heads and if you have any questions that you don't want to make public for whatever reason, just PM or EM almost any of the experienced members here and ask, most of them will be more than happy to give advice that will help you avoid getting into trouble or disaster.  Don't be embarrassed to ask even a simple question, remember everyone was a newbie at some time.***

Sorry for the off topic bit there, must sign off but will try to pop in later, hope you all have a great day.
Oroblanco

after 35 some odd years  i still am amazed athow many  people confuse the number of sites related to this legend and what they are and why ...

i have not been here for a few months and if i was it was only to say i was alright and let people know my computer was down ...

a year ago my younger bother mike died of bone cancer and me and him had set a date  to go ridding our bikes . he ask me if i would help him, fix his bike and two weeks latter when he did not call back i called him and found out he had been told about the bone cancer .. that date is coming up in 4 days on june 1st .. i have worked night and had 2 or 3 hours of sleep for the last 4 months but my bike was running this morning for the first time in 4 years ,i am sore and need to rest but after the 1st . i will ride on the first ...and anyone out there that thinks i am just playing games with the DLM is a fool ..

we never know how much time we have left and if you enjoy the legend  great if you enjoy the hun t even better ...i have hads a hard time coming to crips with ending the hunt for the lost dutchman mine for those that enjoy the legend dayly ..

not any more

i will find out if i have found the real DLM ... i dont give up i done walk away ...my hands are blistard and i need a few weeks rest after the 1st .. till then .. stay safe stay free

BB,

Good to see you post.


I think - in this case - it is the respectful thing to do - to allow anyone, especially since we are on a treasure hunting site - to present their case, ask questions and have a discussion about different angles to their theories and finds, whys and where-fores.

There are as many theories as their are folks, sometimes - and sometimes, you cannot get 2 people to agree on the meaning of the same sentence.  It makes for interesting conversation and maybe even a lesson or two - if for nothing else, then on condition of trails, hills, roads and whatnot.

Beth

BB,

Good to see you post.


I think - in this case - it is the respectful thing to do - to allow anyone, especially since we are on a treasure hunting site - to present their case, ask questions and have a discussion about different angles to their theories and finds, whys and where-fores.

There are as many theories as their are folks, sometimes - and sometimes, you cannot get 2 people to agree on the meaning of the same sentence.  It makes for interesting conversation and maybe even a lesson or two - if for nothing else, then on condition of trails, hills, roads and whatnot.

Beth

i dont have any questions about what i found .. i know what it is .. i knew what it was the day i found it ...and yes i agree you have the right to ask anything you want .. i have to much to do right now to make a long reply .. but when its time i will go back one more time .. the last time  for me ...

Hot damn, I forgot how much I love this group!
I've spent several hours reading, but I just wanted to say hi! Someone PMd me and asked if I were still interested in the old stories, curious way to pique my interest.
Hola Oro, Mrs. Oro
Cubby!! hey!
Blindbowman, hope this finds you well. Look forward to your presentation of your finds.
All of you, great posting.
Janiece aka Gossamer

Hola amigo Gossamer!      Long time no-see!  Good to see you posting again, and I hope that you will share your adventures with us. 
Oroblanco

 

Ah Oro, so nice to see your up... 
I've been working on a hunt of a different sort. My grandma was very up about her genealogy, so in her honor I'm working on mine.
I'm an obsessive researcher, so it is crazy, but fortunately one line kept really good records.
All the way back to 1070 so far.
And I just found something everyone had missed, my GGgrandfather was approved in the Southern Claims congressional act.
Its really nice to take a breather and read all these other ideas.
Love having 'another' find of the LDM. Or on this thread alone hasn't there been 3 claims to that. LOL... I do enjoy the passion.
Keep em' coming it never gets boring. Who would have thought that big ole' Mountain in my back yard would incite this kind of buzz... Although my school bus driver was also the Sheriff on AJ and told me stories to and from school when I would ask.
Gossamer out.

So cool!  I want to hear more, but also have to sign off - having a LOT of internet trouble and may be our local server so will be back tomorrow.

Good to see you amongst the living again Gossamer.  You were missed at last year's Rendezvous, but there's another one coming up this October again.

Geneology research can indeed be incredibly time consuming and addicting!  I've worked on my family's a few times in the past year, but I have so many "hobbies," that I hate to get completely caught up in one like I know I would!  I do a little here and there when I can, and eventually hope to put a nice story together.  You've done a heck of a job if you're back to the year 1070!!  That's very cool!

Weren't you working on a website to sell antiques or something?  Maybe I'm completely mistaken, but I thought you were looking at doing something similar to that.

Don't be a stranger.

Paul

Hi transparent skivvies,  w bk

Don Jose de La Mancha

Transparent skivvies oh Don Jose!! Gossamer is the name of the orange monster in white tennis shoes in the WB cartoons, and is my avatar. You are so funny, where your mind goes, my lord!
Cubby, last year did they give out a replica of the stone maps? Or was it the year before? I have to tell you time is not my relative. 
Anyway, I will look forward to this upcoming gathering.
Ohmyyes, genealogy is time consuming. I'm fortunate that a ton of stuff is already published. They chronicle the family Leslie back to grant of land by William the Conquerer's brother, or something like that.
One of my ancestors was Chancellor John Maitland, so along with this journey I'm learning a lot of history. I have some of the books, and am trying to get the rest. Unfortunately my GGgrandfather split with his family and he is my dead end, but I'm working on it, they won't let me into the genealogical society that bears his last name until I solve this puzzle, and since he is my Grandmothers grandfather, well I have to find him.
Gossamer

HI gossamer, you say his name was Chancellor John Maitland??  Let me think, it does sound familiar, maybe I knew him personally.

Don Jose de La Mancha

If you 'knew' him personally, well.. wow Don Jose, you never mentioned you were an immortal!?
I knew there was something quite special about you.
kisses, Gossamer

sigh blushing violently.   almost.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Its so sweet to see you blush Don Jose!
I have a question, and please bear with me on the newbieness of it.
I've read the books, read the posts, but would like any of you to give me your own individual impressions of the man, Jacob Waltz, including what you glean of his charactor, education... whatever you know or feel.
Treasure hunters are in some respects (this is my observation) are like profilers, you have to interpet the clues and still stay on task.
Is there anybody in the legend with the last name Star, or something like that?
I'm very curious to hear from Mrs. Oro, your recent observations are very interesting as far as what you said about 'what someone does, rather than what they write".
Very, very well put.
Sorry if this seems a little off topic, hopefully some of the things I've found will actually make more sense with this kind of insight.
Thank you for your time, I know you are all busy, I really appreciate your indulgence.
Gossamer

Gossamer, because I am not a big believer in the Holme's side of the story, I don't intepret or picture Waltz as the "killer" that some other folks do.  I can't prove a thing, but I just don't see that as being part of his character.  I see him as primarily a loner with a few people he developed closer relationships to, but even then he kept much to himself.  I don't view him as having "gold fever" and being driven to do whatever it took to get rich.  I picture him as somewhat of a miser who had a comfort level with having his gold nearby or at least in a spot where only he could find it.

I'm guessing the name "Star" you are reffering to is Andrew and Jacob Starrar who live fairly close to Waltz's property in Phoenix.  An entire thread could be started and discussed in regards to the Starrar's and their relationship with Waltz.  At one point, Jacob Waltz apparently deeded his entire homestead to Andrew Starrar with the promise that Andrew would care for Waltz for the rest of his life as needed.  I don't have the facts in front of me at this time, but I know there have been LOTS of discussions around that incident and what if anything it may mean about Waltz having a mine or not.

Hopefully some folks more knowledgeable than I can shed more light on it for you

Gossamer,

I tend to side with Cubfan on this part.

I've known, being from Pennsylvania - several old German folks from the homeland.  I guess I picture Waltz as I have seen the majority of those
folks that I grew up around.  Kind of loner - not necessarily lonely - self-sufficient - doing things his own way, and not depending on too many other folks, but probably when he came around to a town, gravitated towards others that were of like mind.  And, probably a pretty private man, as immigrants quite often tended to be back then.

If he killed someone, I suspect it would have been because he thought he had to, as also happened quite often back then - but not a cold blooded killer.  I cannot see that.

Yes, he did make a deal with the homestead, but it did not come to fruition - the deal was, for all intents and purposes, cancelled. 

I also suspect that the word "miser" might be a little strong - most of the Pennsylvania Deutch (Germans), are frugal - by necessity and by want.
The folks I knew where quite happy to be on their little farms, with their crops and their animals.  My mother-in-law used to say they could squeeze a nickle until the buffalo pooped - but, our families traded eggs, and milk and the whole nine yards.  They went to town once a month.
They weren't miserly - imo - because, the few things they did buy - was always of very good quality and Built to last.

That's kind of how I "see" Waltz.

Beth

    Gossamer,

    I believe Jacob Waltz was satisfied to live a simple life since he didn't have to work, at least I haven't read about him having to work for a living. I do believe I read somewhere that he owned a saloon in Tortilla Flat at some time, quien sabe?

    I also believe he didn't want to draw to much attention, maybe that's why he would go all the way to the fort, and to Florence to make his transactions?

    Loner? maybe because he couldn't trust everybody, since only he knew the location of the mine.

    Killer? Of course, he was a well known Indian fighter. You didn't fight Indians by out dancing them back then. If he had killed before for survival, he could kill again to acquire wealth.

    There are a lot of killers that have a good side. If you don't know of any personally, look at celebrity's that are known killers, and do good deeds.

                                  Homar

Janiece,

Good to see you posting here again. Carolyn and I miss you every year at the Rendezvous. We always talk about the late night discussions we had. Your knowledge and experience covered a lot of ground.
Hope you make it back this year.

I would mirror Beth and Paul's opinions on Jacob Waltz's character. For one of the best researched compilations on the Starrar's, "The Lost Dutchman Mine.....Part 1" by Dr. Thomas Glover is probably highest on the list. Pages: 124, 127, 130-136, 131, 132, 133, 152-153.

Sims Ely had the personal recollections of James Bark and others who knew the Dutchman to base his opinions on. I doubt it gets much better than that.

Hope to see you in October.

Take care,

Joe

Do any of you have any idea as to why the LDM was called the Dutchman mine?
Gossamer/Janiece

Janiece,

Deutschland is the German name for Germany. In America, anyone from Germany was considered Dutch, thus the Lost Dutchman Mine.

That's the story that I have heard.

Take care,

Joe

@Gossamer

He was German - which in German is 'Deutsch' - which sounds very much like 'Dutch' ...

*chuckles* Joe, ya beat me to it!!


... and if anything, the Dutchman was obviously not lost, so I guess it should be:
1) The Lost Mine of the Dutchman
2) The Dutchman Lost Mine
 ...

Humph!  Beaten to the punch by both of you ornery scoundrels!  Oh well, just to be disagreeable, I will respectfully take the position that since the mine has been commonly called the Lost Dutchman's Mine for over a century (even before Waltz passed away, as there are other Lost Dutchman mines in AZ) I will stick to that name even though another form may be more correct.  So there!   

Oroblanco

 

LOL, now that is what I call an answer. Thank all of you!!
I was talking with someone in my Dr's office today, and she was from Germany, and happened to say 'Deutchland', I laughed, and asked her to repeat it. Go figure that had never occurred to me, I explained to the nice lady and thanked her.
But.... now Roy, you have opened the door, what 'other' mines are called 'Dutchman?'
I've been reading AZ census as far back as I can, and the Jacob Waltz that is there in the written record, he claims to hail from Prussia, which I find very interesting.
Andrew Starr (that is how its written) is his next door neighbor, I was confused by this, because I had thought it was Starrar, or something like that. But over the pages before and after Waltz are a group of people also immigrated from Prussia. Which I have found in pockets all across the US census of 1850-1860. (sorry rambling)
I always refer back to the original copies because the people that 'decipher' the census usually write Germany and or whatever they are thinking. I find so many last names that I disagree with their interpretation. Eh' what can you do?
Someone once mentioned to me that the CA Superstition Mt's also have a 'Dutchman mine'. I haven't looked into it.
Whatcha' think?
Gossamer/Janiece

Hola amigo Janiece,

The two other Dutchman mines in AZ are, one near Wickenburg that dates to the 1870's, but this Dutchman was found dead after Waltz and his mine was not that far from the town; he used to wrap his burros feet in burlap when he would sneak away to his mine and I suspect that this detail got conflated onto Waltz stories later.  Some sources place the mine somewhere near Vulture peak.  The other was in the Bradshaws a day's hike from Prescott, and the Dutchman in that case was named Henry Youngblood, who left AZ to return to Missouri after making his fortune.  I am going from memory here but think that also dates to about the same time period as the Wickenburg story.  It has been theorized that all are the same Dutchman, as Waltz was known to have been in the area of the Vulture for a little while and did some serious prospecting in the Bradshaws, but that is about as far as the parallels really go.  In my opinion, either of these mines would be worth searching for and did exist, and are not rediscovered as far as I know.  Perhaps someone can spot them via satellite imagery?

Now that I think of it, I had started a thread on the Wickenburg lost Dutchman mine here in T-net some time ago, but there was little interest in discussing it.  Can't find it on the site anymore.   

I would like to hear whatever you would care to share in your own research, thank you in advance.
Roy

 

.... Andrew Starr (that is how its written) is his next door neighbor, ....

Off Topic: Funny how the name Starr seems to somehow find its way into quite a number of these treasure legends, isn't it?  It was recently confirmed on the Victorio Peak catagory that Tom Starr was a Doc Noss alias back in the '30's.  Just another coincidence I guess.  Sorry for the interruption.

His neighbor's name was Andrew Starar not Starr.

Springfield,

Don't forget about Ringo! LOL

Mike

On top of page 3, #19 of the 1880 Arizona Territory, Phoenix area, it lists
Jacob Waltz White Male 70 born, self: Prussia, father: Prussia, mother: Prussia.
The next line is
#20 Starr, Jacob white male, 60 and the same as Waltz, Prussia for all above
then Andrew Starr, white male, 58 Prussia
In the same household, George Bryant, white male, 59, Ireland.
Both Jacob Waltz and Jacob Starr list their profession as farmer. Bryant however lists miner as his.
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?ht...amp;st=r&ssrc=&pid=43310278
Janiece

Janiece,

I believe Dr. Glover addresses the different spellings in his book. Not being at home right now, I will look it up this afternoon.....unless someone beats me to it. As I recall, it was shortened by them, or the census taker just misspelled it.

Take care,

Joe

On top of page 3, #19 of the 1880 Arizona Territory, Phoenix area, it lists
Jacob Waltz White Male 70 born, self: Prussia, father: Prussia, mother: Prussia.
The next line is
#20 Starr, Jacob white male, 60 and the same as Waltz, Prussia for all above
then Andrew Starr, white male, 58 Prussia
In the same household, George Bryant, white male, 59, Ireland.
Both Jacob Waltz and Jacob Starr list their profession as farmer. Bryant however lists miner as his.
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?ht...amp;st=r&ssrc=&pid=43310278
Janiece

Stoehrer was probably the name entered into the Wuerttemburg Emigration Index when they came over on the boat.
Starar was used on the 1860 Federal Census taken in Humboldt County, CA.
Starrar appears on the 1870 Phoenix, AZ property maps and was favored by TE Glover in his research.
Starr was their name on the 1880 Federal Census taken in Phoenix, AZ.

Take your pick.  I still maintain that the Starrs have quite a history in the TH lore.  Now as far as Ringo is concerned, he was born Richard Starkey.  So is he Ringo or Richard?

Strangely enough - I cannot find a death certificate on Andrew Starr, Starar or Starrar.

Does anyone have access to one?

Beth


PS:  cannot read that ancestry.com link

Strangely enough - I cannot find a death certificate on Andrew Starr, Starar or Starrar.

Does anyone have access to one?

Beth


PS:  cannot read that ancestry.com link

I don't think you can open that page unless you are an ancestry.com member.  It's a scan of the original hand-entered census document and clearly has the spelling 'Starr'.

Arizona Geneaology should have his death certificate, though.


Beth

I was afraid that no one else can see the page, I am a member of Ancestry.com. But I imagine you can find it elsewhere. I find it interesting that one of the guys name is Jacob too... like in Jacob Weisser?? Or whatever his nephews name was??
Gossamer/Janiece

Courtesy ancestry.com, below is the cropped image of the Census form

Janiece,

This is a quote of a post by "Aurum" (Kraig Roberts) from another forum, now deflunct:

"On June 1, 1884, Lora Ann Amelia Starr was born in the Tonto Basin in the home of Amanda Faucett Sanders. This little girl was the daughter of Charles and Mary (Donovan) Starr(ar). My great aunt knew Lora Ann Starr who often attended the Pioneer Days celebrations held in Phoenix every April to honor the Arizona Pioneer families. I looked up her name in my aunt's files last night and found her birth announcement and notes on her pioneer family which includes Jacob, Andrew, Daniel, Lorenz and Charles Starrar. She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. Lora Ann Starr married a man named Brady who died and later she was married to a man named Conway. She had 4 children whose descendants still live in the Tonto Basin, Pleasant Valley and Globe areas.

Now that that mystery is solved it still leaves the mystery of Andrew Satrrar's son's."
_________________________________________________ _____

Few people know the real history of this part of Arizona like Kraig Roberts, but I would like to see some kind of verifiable evidence for the existence of Sarah (Bertie) Roberts, in the era mentioned, before I accept this story as legitimate. That would include the "German Notes".

This is where I first heard the story of how Starrar got changed to Star.

Take care,

Joe

Help!!  How about a death certificate - did you find one of them for Andrew Starar/Starr


Beth

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly.  The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly.  The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

I think this mystery, is clear as mud.

Help!!  How about a death certificate - did you find one of them for Andrew Starar/Starr
Beth

Beth, I have spent some considerable time on this, and I have nothing, there was an Andrew Starr that died in Iowa.... but nothing fits into this crazy puzzle. It is in part why I wanted to step away and just read.

One thing is absolutely true, that starting with Jacob Waltz/Walz/or whatever... a cottage industry started around this LDM mystery.
I've read in old newspapers where the (and this is widely known) "Don's" would have a yearly gathering to 'hunt' the mine. And they benefited from this event with tourism.
Also, that in the 40s two men claimed to have found a cavern where they believed the Peralta's would have smelted or broken down ore.
They believed they were one step closer to finding the Dutchman.
I believe that Waltz did find a cache (at the least) of gold, there is another news story reporting that 2 Dutchmen, Jacob Waltz and Jacob Weisser were given the map by the 'last' Peralta. (Juan Peralta is on the same 1880 census of AZ Territory, Phoenix)
Some reports say that Waltz went to the Peralta home and offered half of what they would find to Peralta, and other stories say that Waltz saved a Peralta in a bar fight or other nonsense.
Same report, stated that Waltz and Weisser were mining and that Waltz went into town for supplies, only to come back to find partner Weisser murdered by the (con veinant or not) Apaches. And that he 'swore never to go back to the mine'.
Report: Independent Press-Telegram (Long Beach, CA) January 31, 1954, right under the story about Jesse James.
One thing I am certain, Waltz bleed that story for all its worth, and I believe used it to get attention (and why not) and to get someone to take care of him as his health failed.
This article also mentions that Jim Bark heard it from the Dutchman's own mouth, and that started the Bark and Sims Ely started in the mid 1890s to look and that there were other stories of people bringing 'rich ore' out of the mountains. (can anyone confirm that?)
I think a lot of other things, LOL... but that is for another time.
Gossamer/Janiece

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly.  The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

Springfield,

I believe it was fairly common for many immigrants to change the spelling of their surnames to make them easier for Americans to pronounce. Sometimes it was done for them at Ellis Island by the people doing the paperwork. Changing Starrar to Star is not such a leap.

Some did it after they had been in the country for awhile. They just got tired of repeating their names, and having to spell them for the untrained American ears.

Seems like a fairly logical explanation to me.

Take care,

Joe

That is absolutely true, but why does it change from book to book? And nephews become neighbors and so much other 'changes'.
I go and read all the original photocopies because I argue with the interpretation all the time.
I find it so interesting that Waltz would say that he was from Prussia, which is significant in the history of Germany, and the historians don't feel its an important clue and rather than just writing what he wrote, would 'interpet' in to Germany.
Gossamer/Janiece

..... She stated her grandfather changed their name to Starr but she didn't know why. ....Now that that mystery is solved .....

Well, not exactly.  The question would be 'why did these guys keep changing their names?'

Springfield,

I believe it was fairly common for many immigrants to change the spelling of their surnames to make them easier for Americans to pronounce. Sometimes it was done for them at Ellis Island by the people doing the paperwork. Changing Starrar to Star is not such a leap.

Some did it after they had been in the country for awhile. They just got tired of repeating their names, and having to spell them for the untrained American ears.

Seems like a fairly logical explanation to me.

Take care,

Joe

Yeah, we know all about that common occurance.  Most immigrants ended up changing their names in America, particularly in the 19th century, for various reasons.  

But these brothers changed theirs three different times: Stoehrer (1829 immigration?); Starar (1860); Starrar (1870); Starr (1880).  I guess it doesn't matter, other than their association with Waltz, who incidentally appears to have kept his name ever since his 1839 New York arrival on the ship Ville De Lyon, sailing from Havre (he listed himself as a 28 year old farmer from Wurtemburg).  

Cropped images courtesy ancestry.com

ok, not to be a pain, but... how do you know that was 'the' Jacob Waltz. I have found them all over the place, same time frame, same everything.
Just curious.
Gossamer/Janiece

@Springfield,
Now, this is out of memory (I know - that's a poor substitute for the real thing), but did not Helen Corbin more or less prove that he arrived i New Orleans?
I seem to recall the manifest list and passengers disembarking - and both Waltz and Weiser was there ... or at least someone with those names.
Or am I barking up the wrong tree? (wouldn't be the first time!)

ok, not to be a pain, but... how do you know that was 'the' Jacob Waltz. I have found them all over the place, same time frame, same everything.
Just curious.
Gossamer/Janiece

Correct name, correct country of origin, correct age, correct year of travel.  Four points of 'confirmation' in one genuine document - pretty decent match to what seems to be 'LDM gospel', or at least some points of it.  That said, I don't know how you can prove any of this stuff for certain without a Waltz journal or some such.  I'm not an LDM aficionado - my interest lies with aspects of this legend that dovetail with certain aspects of a bigger picture of 'lost mines/hidden treasures' in the southwest.  My original comment dealt with the 'Starr' surname - one of those aspects.  By no means do I purport to be an LDM expert - I'll defer to others on this forum and elsewhere to decide the 'facts' of the case.

Loke - I don't know about New Orleans.  I haven't read Corbin's book.  Without knowing any better, it seems logical to me that a guy might sail from Europe to New York, then from New York to New Orleans.  Quien sabe?

Hola amigos,

I like the way Springfield put that term "facts" in quotes, as so much of this is difficult to pin down absolutely. 

I do have some doubts about which Waltz arrived on which ship in which port, based on his claiming to be from Prussia, while Wurttembourg is in SW Germany and not a part of Prussia at all. 

<Map of Wurttembourg>


<Map of Prussia at greatest extent>


Why would Waltz list Prussia as his country of origin if he were from Wurttembourg, which was an independent minor state?  Wurttembourg was a part of the German Confederation, which was a sort of 'buffer state' between Prussia and the Austrian empire.  Or we do not have the right Jacob Waltz, and there are a bunch of them on the various ships that arrived before 1840. 

I would like to hear any explanations or theories on this question, thank you in advance,
Roy

 

For anyone interested in the Olber's Manifest, you will find a lot of information on that fake document here: http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....id=b82fb389dd26fa8e92c85fa4d8a12c00


Before you go there, I want to make it perfectly clear that Helen Corbin had complete trust in the source for that "evidence".  She included that and much more from this same source in "The Bible...."  It turns out that the source was as phony as the manifest. Helen was a good woman and a straight shooter.  She would have been devastated if she had learned of this before her death.

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Joe Ribaudo

Greetings Joe,
<Cactusjumper wrote>

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Amazon still lists them, may have a few copies still in stock;
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Lost-Du...=UTF8&qid=1307762952&sr=8-1

I wish I had been able to meet Helen in person before her passing, and agree that she would likely be enraged at this fraud pulled on her.  I believe that some legal action would have been possible against that fraudulent source for providing false information for publication.  There are laws about fraud.  The book still has a good deal of sound information that is verifiable and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this legend. 

Roy

 

.....Why would Waltz list Prussia as his country of origin if he were from Wurttembourg, which was an independent minor state?  Wurttembourg was a part of the German Confederation, which was a sort of 'buffer state' between Prussia and the Austrian empire.  Or we do not have the right Jacob Waltz, and there are a bunch of them on the various ships that arrived before 1840.  

I would like to hear any explanations or theories on this question, thank you in advance,
Roy

Well, on Waltz's Declaration of Intent to become a US citizen, filed September 12, 1848 in Mississippi, Jacob Waltz promises to forsake his previous allegiance to William, King of Wurttemburg.  This document is reproduced on page 114 of the Glover book.  Then, two months later, on November 12, 1848, a  Jacob Waltz, from 'Germany' was naturalized in California. Cropped image below courtesy ancestry.com.

I don't know, Oro.  In some ways it seems obvious; on the other hand, how can we be sure of any of this?  'Documentation' shouldn't be a matter of opinion, but it often is.  As I mentioned, I don't have a horse in this parade - just reporting the best I can find in the public records.

    

Thank you Springfield, though the waters remain muddy.  I suspect that some of these problems with name spellings or even country of origin can be a result of the person filling out the documents, as with a census taker writing down a name as he hears it and guesses it should be spelled, or making an assumption about country of origin etc. 

You are correct too that even with source documents, they are far from a perfect source and often have flaws or the injected opinions/views of the person who created the documents.  Makes for puzzling research.

Roy

 

Greetings Joe,
<Cactusjumper wrote>

I believe "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Mine And Jacob Waltz" is no longer available for purchase through normal outlets.

Amazon still lists them, may have a few copies still in stock;
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Lost-Du...=UTF8&qid=1307762952&sr=8-1

I wish I had been able to meet Helen in person before her passing, and agree that she would likely be enraged at this fraud pulled on her.  I believe that some legal action would have been possible against that fraudulent source for providing false information for publication.  There are laws about fraud.  The book still has a good deal of sound information that is verifiable and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this legend. 

Roy

 

Roy,

It could be that my belief is wrong, but my source was pretty good. Who knows how long it is between the request and the reality.

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe

For the record (but probably irrelevent), there was a Jacob Waltz, steerage passenger on board the 'Dublin', which sailed from Le Havre and arrived in New Orleans May 6, 1844.  No age or country of origin was listed.  Seems too late.

This is the census of Jacob and Andrew Starar.  Courtesy of Ancestry.com.


Beth

Roy,

My source for the book being removed from sale was Bob Corbin.  It may very well be that they could not remove the book from stores that had purchased a number of them for stock.

I posted this message this morning on the LDM Forum for which I posted a link earlier:

[My source for Tom being the one who gave Helen the Olbers Manifest was a partner of Kraig Roberts. They led me down many a false trail.  They played me like a fiddle. :oops:

At this time, I have no reason for "confidentiality". Helen's source was Kraig Roberts. My source for that information was Bob Corbin, who was there with Greg and Kraig when he gave it to her. Bob gave me his permission to name him as my source in a telephone conversation this morning.

If you read back through this thread, you will be able to judge the authenticity of the manifest for yourself. In clearing up that last bit of information, I can now put the Olbers story behind me. I believe we have, pretty much debunked that "evidence" along with the Frank Alkire's story.]

That should end any speculation concerning the Olber's Manifest....but I doubt it.

Take care,

Joe

Beth what year was that census, I spent yesterday reading through transcripts of the 1870 and found the Starr brothers. Will post the transcript but don't have originals, they alphabetized the dumb thing, so I went through it and picked out the people that were on the same page as the Starr Brothers, but its LONG. Will post if interested?
Gossamer/Janiece

[may have a few left]

Roy,

My source for the book being removed from sale was Bob Corbin.  It may very well be that they could not remove the book from stores that had purchased a number of them for stock.

I posted this message this morning on the LDM Forum for which I posted a link earlier:

[My source for Tom being the one who gave Helen the Olbers Manifest was a partner of Kraig Roberts. They led me down many a false trail.  They played me like a fiddle. :oops:

At this time, I have no reason for "confidentiality". Helen's source was Kraig Roberts. My source for that information was Bob Corbin, who was there with Greg and Kraig when he gave it to her. Bob gave me his permission to name him as my source in a telephone conversation this morning.

If you read back through this thread, you will be able to judge the authenticity of the manifest for yourself. In clearing up that last bit of information, I can now put the Olbers story behind me. I believe we have, pretty much debunked that "evidence" along with the Frank Alkire's story.]

That should end any speculation concerning the Olber's Manifest....but I doubt it.

Take care,

Joe

Greetings Joe,

My observation on Amazon still listing the book was that they "may have a few left" which is what the page claims for the book, quote

The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz: A Pioneer History of the Gold Rush (Prospecting and Treasure Hunting) [Paperback]
Helen Corbin (Author)
4.4 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (5 customer reviews) | Like (0)
List Price:    $24.95
Price:    $18.96 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. Details
You Save:    $5.99 (24%)
   
In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.
Only 4 left in stock--order soon

My reason for posting it at all, was for anyone desiring a copy before they disappear entirely.  Amazon may not even have these four copies, who knows how often the web pages are updated for current inventories? 

I have read and followed the full thread on the Olbers ship manifest, quite an interesting discussion really.  My mention of Waltz country of origin on a ship manifest does not refer only to the Olbers for there are several Jacob Waltz named on several different ship manifests arriving in New York (for instance) but as far as I know, none list Prussia as his country of origin. 

Mr Roberts efforts to deceive were pretty successful, but may yet backfire on him.  I think Roberts contributions of false info do not include the whole of Helen Corbin's book, just a portion that can be picked out and still have an excellent book.  It is still valuable to me for what it contains. Just a personal opinion.

I never understand the motives for those who pull a huge fraud; for the effort expended it seems logical that they would have profited as much or more in an honest pursuit, without the risk of legal actions. 
Roy

 

Sorry - I forgot to post the year.

The one I posted was from California, 1860.  There is one (actually 2) from 10 years later, done in Arizona, listed under the Arizona and New Mexico Territories Census.

Beth

[Yavapai Arizona Territory 1870]

I agree Roy, this has been my huge problem with this whole story from the get. I don't like the idea that someone comes in with hidden agenda's and way too much baggage, and for what? What is the gain? Becoming famous, infamous... or just slanderous... oh well truth will always rise to the top.
I got to thinking as I was reading those census's yesterday, trying to remember what I could about my grade school bus driver, so I googled what I could remember, and guess what, I think I found him, or who he was.
I believe his name was Roy Luebben and he and his wife, Lulu had a ranch called LuRoy, I haven't found a picture of him yet, but from what I remember and what was posted in her 2003 obit. (sob)
I loved that old guy, its so funny to think back on him and my constant questions, he nicknamed me Busybee and one time a boy stole my tiny little ball. The next day he handed me one just like it, except it was twice as big and said 'well it grew'.
Anyway he and his wife were very involved in Pioneer Days and the Burro Races and such. Now it all makes more sense. He was also part of the Sheriff's rescue team, going in and finding hapless Dutch hunters.
Anyway, since I read the whole census, I'm going to post page 97 which has the Starr brothers on it.
Notice other names that are interesting, including variations of Bark.
Bear in mind that this is a typed copy and I haven't found a photocopy of the original yet.

Yavapai Arizona Territory 1870.   
               
'                 Gavilan         10     Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 37
.                 Mary Ann       13     Arizona              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 36
A*rathy           J               21     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 30
Adams             J               28     Penn                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 22
Affute            J W             27     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 20
Akers             J B             25     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 20
Aldi              J               25       Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 11
Alex              Theodore        21     Prussia             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 40
Alexander         Catherine       41     Illinois             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 19
Alexander         E M             19     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 20
Alexander         Ellen           14     Illinois                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 22
Alexander         Henry           7      Kansas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 24
Alexander         James           12     Illinois              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 23
Alexander         John            3      Arizona               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 25
Alexander         Malcomb      24     Canada              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 8
Alexander         Mary            17     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 21
Alexander         T M             48     Indiana             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 18
Allengraker       John            45     New Mexico        Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 29
Alouraso          M               52     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 1
Alsiro            P               22     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 14
Alsop             J F             40     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 10
Alters            L J             35     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 22
Alverez           J               32     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 14
Alverson          M               27     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 38
Alvirez           R               14     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 17
Alviso            J               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 40
Alyres            Joseph        37     New Jersay           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 8
Amerman           J            52     Kentucky              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 31
Amerman           J            30     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 32
Anderson          J A           32     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 17
Andrews           A W          21     Ohio                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 1
Andrews           G T           40     Maine                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 33
Anesita           R               35     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 30
Anschutz          Mary         18     New York             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 5
Arnold            J S             24     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 19
Arnold            W              33     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 18
Arroyers          A               21     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 31
Arvis             M               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 2
Averish           C               27     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 35
Averish           E               10     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 39
Averish           F               19     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 37
Averish           F               8      Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 40
Averish           F               4/12   Arizona               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 2
Averish           J               21     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 36
Averish           J A             33     New York             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 33
Averish           M               47     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 34
Averish           R               15     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 38
Averish           R               4      Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 1
Avery             J               45     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 10

Baker             E K             33     Maine                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 23
Baker             P               27     Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 32
Baker             P               27     Prussia                Yavapai  pg0104b.txt   104b 37
Banaburger        Alonzo          16     Oregon            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 2
Bargue            Thomas          22     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b   2
Barnum            F               38     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 5
Barnum            H E             4      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 7
Barnum            J J             21     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 6
Barnum            L A             2      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 8
Barritt           W L             26     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 28
Barsilone         F               24     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 9
Bartlett          T H             22     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 36
Bartz             Charles         40     Prussia                Yuma     pg0133b.txt   134b 15
Bavis             J               33     N York                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 7
Beal              E H             32     Tennessee              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 23
Beal              Sarah M         18     Missouri               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 24
Beck              A C             28     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 28
Bell              T               35     Ohio                       Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 6
Bernard           Chas            32     Lousiana              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 5 Berry             G E             37     Kentucky               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 23
Bertram           B               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 33
Bertram           C               24     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 34
Bertram           F               4/12   Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 35
Beyaleky          G               24     Poland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 3
Bol*ke            Henry           23     Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 4
Borsmann          G W             21     Penn                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 8
Bower             N W             38     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 20
Boyce             James           35     Penn                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 10
Boyd              Wm              25     Tennessee            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 8
Breir             Thomas          27     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 4
Brooks            Bessy           3      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 39
Brooks            Hezekiah        45     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 37
Brooks            Mary C          30     Penn                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 38
Buck              G W             22     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 30
Buckman           Celia R         1      Arizona               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 35
Buckman           J J             46     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 30
Buckman           John J, Jr      7      Kansas              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 32
Buckman           Mary Ann        5      Arizona             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 33
Buckman           Sarah           30     Indiana              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 31
Buckman           Thomas P        3      Arizona             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b  34
Bustamante        F               45     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 38
Byer              Jacob           27     Switzerland            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 2

Cahill            Martin          26     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 3
Callahan          James           35     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 25
Cameron           Allen           42     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b  36
Canlon            James           24     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 4
Carpenter         S C             30   New Hampshire       Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 12
Carrigan          T               22     New York               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 22
Castro            J               32     Spain                    Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 33
Castro            P               40     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 34
Clakey            Robert          21     Penn                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 39
Collins           M               44     Canada                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 26
Collvein          Wm              23     Vermont             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 16
Conklin           James           22     Vermont            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 10
Conklin           W H             27     Mass                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 20
Considine         M               21     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b  4
Cook              W M             21     Maryland           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 32
Coseronia         J               20     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 12
Costinaro         M               30     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 37
Cottrell          D               48     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 27
Cowley            F               25     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 23
Cox               J               43     Kentucky               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 3
Cox               John F          31     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 33
Crafford          P               45     Ken                    Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a  17
Cram              R               38     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 27
Crothus           Thomas          21     Ireland          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 32
Culbertson        F A             23     Indiana             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 5
Cullen            Rich A          24     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 10
Curry             James           25     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 40
Curtiss           G W             33     Maine                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 15
Daly              Peter F         35     New York             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 6
Danney            J               40     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 3
Darson            H               34     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 15
Davis             C               30     England               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 25
Davis             C C             1      Arizona               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 29
Davis             J F             5      California             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b  27
Davis             M N             3      California             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 28
Davis             R               25     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 26
Delapes           Henry           28     Germany           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a  26
Dellunso          G E             25     England             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 29
Denslinger        J               39     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 30
Dickenson         Alice E         15     California           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 3
Dickenson         Elizabeth       33     Kentucky          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a  2
Dickenson         I Q             47     Virginia             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a  1
Dies              P               20     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 6
Dill              Vincent         22     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 1
Donnelly          James           21     Scotland           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 2
Drelen            Harl            26     Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 37
Droyer            John            26     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 27
Drum              W H             22     New York          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a  28
Drummond      Leroy        21     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 12
Duncan            Charles         34     France              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 26
Dunn              James           27     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 5
Dupper            D               36     France                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 1
Duval             James           21     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 34

Edgar             G M             28     Germany           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 24
Eich              T               41     Prussia                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 13
Elepeshire        A               18     Mexico              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 24
Ellis             John            27     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 29
Ellis             T J             25     Ohio                     Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 6
Elrose            C               24     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 20
Espinosa          J               23     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 18
Fanary            F               20     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 2
Fansel            Christian       24     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 31
Farrelty          T               21     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 6
Finnegan          Peter           27     Ireland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 38
Fireman           Pat             21     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 12
Fitzgerald        M               27     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 32
Fitzgerald        T               25     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 3
Flannery          E               23     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 25
Flores            T               30     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 3
Flores            T               30     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 22
Floris            B C             25     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 24
Floris            F               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 23
Floris            F               6      Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 25
Floris            R               4      Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 26
Ford              F               34     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 25
Forde             W W          34     Scotland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 29
Fox               James         24     Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 6
Franco            A              24     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 38
Fry               M               24     Bohemia                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 3
Furgeson          C L          36     Kentucky                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 21

Gansier           Henry           37     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 26
Garcia            O               45     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 4
Gardiner          G               21     Mass                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 24
Garera            S               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 5
Garritsia         G               56     New York               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 9
Garsight          R               32     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 19
Gibson            Edward          26     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 33
Glasgow           J B             40     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b  12
Glynn             T F             31     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a  32
Gonzalles         G               40     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a  28
Gorera            S               27     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 13
Gorman         Charles         26     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 13
Gow               W               28     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a  21
Grant             N R             38     Missouri               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a  33
Gray              C N             37     Florida                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 14
Gray              J A             48     Tennessee             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 20
Gray              M A             24     Arkansas              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 15
Green             F               3      Arkansas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 17
Green             M               27     Arkansas              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 16
Green             M               6/12   Arizona              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 18
Green             Wm              24     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 39
Greenhow          A G             21     Arkansas           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 19
Greenwood         J               29     England             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 24
Griffin           Martin          22     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 34
Griffin           N P             40     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 29
Gwyr              H C             24     Maryland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 7
Gyalco            Wm              17     Mexico              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 17

Hall              J               22     New York               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 13
Hamilton          O Y             31     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 14
Handcock          W A             39     Mass               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 31
Harris            Wm              29     Texas                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 1
Harrison          J               24     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 10
Hart              J H             22     New Hampshire      Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 26
Harvey            P A             30     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a  21
Harvey            T S             22     Penn                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a  5
Hasson            N D             26     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b  11
Hathaway          C E             36     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 7
Hays              J C             21     Scotland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 4
Henderson         J M             40     Ohio                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 12
Henry             Chas E          21     Sweden             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 38
Herbert           Henry           35     Virginia              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 40
Heskey            John            22     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 16
Hockwood          G               21     New York          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 27
Hoffman           J H             21     Mass                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 26
Holstein          K               26     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 8
Hornaker          F R             21     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 15
Houry             George          31     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 10
House             F               22     New York             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 19
House             W T             22     Missouri             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 34
Howe              Wm              53     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 7
Hussey            B A             28     Mass                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 11
Hym               Wm              21     Germany           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 25
Hyms              George          23     Ireland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 23
Jackson           Faustine        7      Arizona              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 26
Jackson           J C             21     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 27
Jackson           W A             21     Illinois               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 11
Jacox             H H             37     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 9
Jany              J               25     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 9
Jeffrey           Wm           21     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 37
Jucois            L               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 18
Kaston            G               21     Indiana               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 28
Kearney           John            21     Ireland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 18
Kelly             Dan             32     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 1
Kelly             J W             23     Indiana                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 29
Kelly             John            27     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 8
Kennedy           L               40     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 27
Keys              James           21     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 6
Kimball           N S             45     Tennessee             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 11
Klein             John            25     Germany                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 13
Korsilons         J               38     Mexico                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 11
Korsilons         S               32     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 10
La Bameby      Amos            27     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 28
La Raohe          R               29     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 9
La Rue            G W             21     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 7
Lasenburg         M               28     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 4
Lasson            J               33     Denmark              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 4
Leary             Cornelius       35     Conn                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 11
Leonard          T               40     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 9
LeRoy             James           25     Mass                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 22
Lisne             A               40     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 21
Lisne             J               21     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 20
Little            J               38     Mass                     Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 5
Logan             B               31     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 5
Lomis             A               26     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 16
Lopez             L               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 6
Lopez             M               28     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 40
Lopez             R               25     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 15
Lyman           George T        33     Mass                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 10
Maddin            James           28     Canada            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 35
Maddox            John            38     Mass                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 32
Maddox            Wm              25     Mass               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 31
Mahony            J               21     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 31
Manly             J               25     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 28
Marker            Y               24     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 21
Marmaduke         A J             45     Virginia             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 25
Marshall          James           21     Scotland            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 35
Martin            S               24     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 37
Martinela         J               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 12
Martinez          G               24     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 8
Martinez          P               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 39
Matthew           E P             25     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 35
Mayerby           N               42     Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 37
McCabe            James           27     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 12
McCann            John            23     Mississippi          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 11
McCardy           J J             21     Indiana                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 29
McCarthy          M M             27     Ireland              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 19
McCarthy          P               24     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 13
McClutchen        A B             25     Penn                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 28
McCormack         J W             24     New York          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 9
McCormick         James           40     Germany          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 39
McDowall          James           21     Canada            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 38
McGoldrick        T               28     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 2
McKenizer         John            24     Scotland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 34
McKenny           J B             48     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 23
McQuaid           J F             24     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 30
McSaley           Wm              21     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 14
Mead              Wm H            21     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 21
Melvin            Joseph          38     Tennessee            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 1
Melvin            S J             33     Kentucky               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 2
Meranda           D               4/12   Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 21
Meranda           G               10     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 20
Meranda           J               29     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 18
Meranda           T               27     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 19
Messer            J L             32     Alabama              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 2
Meyell            J               27     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 12
Miller            G H             23     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 18
Miller            George          27     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 9
Millerkin         R               45     South Carolina      Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 18
Mireno            F               29     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 28
Mireno           

I'm going to assume there is a part 2 to that list, since it doesn't go past "m",  but, I think Star/starr is NOT the right name.

The Starar brothers, Jacob and Andrew, are in the 1860 California census, and the 1870 Arizona and New Mexico Territory census.  I am sure they are the same, as it is 10 years difference, and their ages are exactly 10 years older.

Beth



PS - I forgot to add - sometimes, if you want to - oh, sell a book or something - having your name known might be a GOOD thing - many folks like to read books from the ancestors of famous people.

RATS, it didn't all go in the message... so here is the second half.
Mireno            F               29     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 28
Mireno            P               26     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 27
Monroe            G               22     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 35
Montica           J               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 7
Moore             Wm            29     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 32
Morall            A               24      Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 9
Morano            A               20     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 4
Morano            F               20     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 5
Morano            J               15     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 3
Morano            J E             5      Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 6
Moreno            P               32     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 30
Moretice          D               28     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 8
Moretice          M             4/12   Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 9
Morilis           R               29     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 27
Morris            James         21     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 8
Mortis            J               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 8
Moss              I               50         Ken                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 16
Moyan             Wm             35     Alabama           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 40
Moyer             Conrad          28     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a  38
Murphy            James          24     Mass                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 14
Musherd           Phillip         26     Prussia               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 20
Myers             Wm              39     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 13

Nichels           Joseph          24     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 37
Nichols           H W             33     New York             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a  9
Nolan             John M          24     Iowa                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 13
Nome              Wm              29     Texas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 39
Norjay            A               23     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 36

O Brien           John            29     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 14
O Reily           Patrick         24     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 37
O Shea            Mike            24     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 15
Octeil            W               24     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 30
Ollis             John            21     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 22
Olvary            J M             34     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 24
Orizan            F               26     Texas                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 11
Osborn            J P             55     Tennessee           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 11
Osborn            J W             16     Iowa                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 13
Osborn            N F             14     Iowa                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 14
Osborn            P E             49     Kentucky            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 12
Osborn            P K             11     Iowa                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 15
Osborn            R G             8      Iowa                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 16
Osborn            W N           28     Kentucky              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 17
Otois             J               40        Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 7
Pardec            R               34     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 18
Parker            Geo P         21     Ireland                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 23
Patterson         A               8      Arkansas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 15
Patterson         A E             2      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 14
Patterson         B F             36     Alabama              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 11
Patterson         E J             33     Alabama               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 12
Patterson         M L             6/12   Arizona              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 13
Peck              Ed G            40     Canada                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 7
Peralta           F               23     Mexico                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 39
Peralta           G               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 10
Perkins           C R             21     Mississippi            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 24
Perosa            N               26     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 29
Peterson        Nicholas        37     Denmark               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 7
Pierce            N P             40     New York               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 30
Pike              George          39     Kentucky              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 13
Pincus            Adolph          24     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 40
Pitman            J               23       Canada                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 10
Pointer           Wm              62     Missouri               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 27
Porter            Amy             9      East Indies            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 16
Porter            Charles         8      East Indies            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 17
Porter            Ellen           41     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 14
Porter            Henry           12     East Indies          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 15
Pref              Adolph          24     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 18
Prenner           H W E           33     Belgium            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 15
Prescott          George        21     New York            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   111
Prescott          J               26     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 23
Presser           Phillip         31     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 16
Price             Wm             26     Ireland                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 33

Quinn           Jeremiah        31     Scotland            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 25

Rake              T              33     New York              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 14
Rein              J               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 13
Reinhart          J N             24     Penn                 Yavapai  pg0104b.txt   105b 13
Reis              B               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 3
Reisbeck       Adam         38      Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 8
Rek               Henry         29    Germany              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 17
Reves             J               43     Mexico                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 7
Revois            Joseph          41     Maine               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 28
Rey               G               23     Scotland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 36
Reynold           E               21     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 34
Rhodes            W               22     Illinois              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 31
Ria               J               22     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 4
Riall             P               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 23
Ridley            R J             22     Alabama              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 35
Riligen           L               20     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 40
Rincon            Robt            28     Scotland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 9
Rinden            H J             24     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 30
Rivas             D               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 39
Rivas             F               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 38
Rivas             S               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 7
Rodgers           J B             21     Arkansas             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 22
Roe               G W             45     Virginia               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 26
Romero            A               20     Mexico              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 19
Rommanckercher    H            31     Germany          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 24
Rost              J C             30     Maryland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 21
Rourke            Frank           21     Ireland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 24
Rowley            J W             28     Ohio                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 36
Royce             Chas            24     New York          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 17
Russell           John            27     Tennessee           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 7
S. Clair          A S             23     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 38
Santess           E J             22     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 19
Santez            G               20     Mexico               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 17
Satia             F               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 13
Schaler           J A             37     Switzerland          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 26
Scott             Adam            32     Scotland             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 16
Scott             Francis         18     Kentucky             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 17
Scott             Margaret        2      Arizona               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 18
Scott             Wm N            3/12   Arizona             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 19
Sergeant          T W            27     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 14
Sharpe            Wm            39     Ohio                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 20
Sheppard        D A             23     Connecticut          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 17
Shortell          A T             4/12   Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 29
Shortell          C               29     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 26
Shortell          E               8      England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 27
Shortell          T               34     England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 25
Shortell          W               5      England                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 28
Simmons        John            60     Tennessee           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 1
Simmons        John            30     Arkansas             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 15
Simmons        John Lee        6      Kansas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 6
Simmons        Margaret A      8      Kansas               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 5
Simmons        Mary            65     Tennessee            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 2
Simmons        Mary J          11     Texas                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 4
Simmons        Thomas        33     Arkansas              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 3
Smith             B C             37     Vermont               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 12
Smith             B W            27     Alabama               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 31
Smith             John           36     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 20
Smithson          A G             25     Virginia               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 8
Snowden           H               39     England             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 37
Sonora            A               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 6
Sonyata           C               40     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 22
Sorena            A               35     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 5
Sount             George          43     Canada               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 4
Springer          Wm C            24     Penn                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 19
Starr             A               47     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 35
Starr             J               49     Germany                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 34
Starr             John            37     Belgium             Yavapai  pg0082a.txt   82a 7
Starr             L               10     California             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 36
Stenson          J               35     Canada               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 9
Stockingro       B               29     Germany           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 29
Storey            J F             37     Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 25
Summers        H B            47     Kentucky            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 14
Sweeny          Thomas      25     Ireland                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 30
Swilling          G               5      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 34
Swilling          J W            40     South Carolina       Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 32
Swilling          M               2      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 35
Swilling          T               26     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 33

Thomas            Wm              28     Penn              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 10
Trotter           P H             24     Iowa                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 6
Turner            Ezekiel         58     Tennessee          Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 40

Valensalis        N               18     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 16
Valensalis        Y               22     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 15
Valensuella       J               26     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103a 16
Valiscas          F               25     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 35
Valiscas          R               30     Mexico                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 36
Van Prusen        Vestor       2   Germany                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 5
Vance             A B            34   North Carolina         Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 22
Vance             J               34     Ohio                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   103b 21
VanMall           J H             22     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 31
Vochl             Andrew          27     Germany            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100b 36

Waechter          David          29     Germany             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 3
Walker            J R             37       Missouri              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 16
Walters           D H             25     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 1
Walters           John            25     Penn                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 21
Walters           Van             21     North Carolina       Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 22
Ward              Wm              26     New York           Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 4
Watson           R O S           38     Ireland               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 24
Watt              J               68     Germany                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 1
Welch             J               37     Ireland                  Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 39
Werner            P               30     Germany                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 1
Wettmer           P               31     Wisconsin              Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 2
Wildman           H               25     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 32
Wilkinson         James          36     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97a 39
Williams          G W             47     New Jersey            Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102a 31
Williamson        C J             21     Canada                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   101a 11
Wilson            G A             52     Virginia                 Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   104a 5
Wotherbee         E               22     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99a 40
Wright            E H             22     Mass                   Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 33
Yooll             P               28     Ireland                    Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   99b 12
Young           Charles         30     Ohio                    Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   100a 36
Young             T M             4      Arizona                Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   102b 22
Youngblood        Wm              30     Prussia             Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   98a 10
Yuetze            James           36     Prussia                Pima     pg0011a.txt   13B  23

Ziker             Joseph          23     Germany               Yavapai  pg0097a.txt   97b 27

janiece

.....I think Star/Starr is NOT the right name.

The Starr brothers, Jacob and Andrew, are in the 1860 California census, and the 1870 Arizona and New Mexico Territory census.  I am sure they are the same, as it is 10 years difference, and their ages are exactly 10 years older......

We haven't seen 'Star' yet, but we can certainly pin 'Starar', 'Starrar' and 'Starr' (the most interesting) to the same two brothers beginning in 1860 and ending in 1880 in the public records.  As mentioned earlier, the emigration records seem to indicate that their German name was most likely 'Stoehrer' when they disembarked.  As far as the name changes are concerned, the only point of interest would be who initiated the changes - the brothers (why?) or the bureaucrats (common occurance).  Seems like all the juice has been wrung out of this topic, unless one wished to link these 'Starrs' to other 'Starrs' elsewhere.   

Springfield,

Here's and interesting site:

http://sunnyfortuna.com/history/fortuna/

And a little more:

[Love that shadow effect on the "Star Hotel" lettering. And check out that period on the end! This two-story building was built in 1876 by W.J. McKenna, and was named after Andrew and Jacob Starrar of Mad River, who raised the elk that likely was Fortuna's meat supply at this time. There's a connection here to the Lost Dutchman's Mine, looks like Andrew may even have owned most of the town at one time and sold part of it to Henry Rohner, we're researching it, will post more info when we have it.
Main floor from left to right: Candy store, North Drugstore, Star Hotel lobby (the rooms were upstairs), Newell & McIntyre General Store. The Star Hotel was a popular destination in Fortuna from the 1880's to the 1950's and was known for its fine dining and friendly service. A journey from Eureka to Fortuna around the turn of the century was not just a little jaunt down the road. A trip would take hours and many times people from surrounding towns would spend the night not wanting to make the trip twice in one day. It was also used as a meeting and resting spot for those coming into town for the day. The hotel went out of business in the mid-1950's. This building is still being used today by a number of businesses.
From the Redwood Empire Association Booklet, early 1940s: "A popular hotel located in the center of Fortuna on the Redwood Highway. Steam heated and with all conveniences. A good coffee shop in connection catering to tourists and vacationists. Excellent steelhead fishing in the Eel River, nearby. Rates: $1.00 to $1.50 without bath; $1.75 to $2.50 with bath. Open all year."]

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks Joe, good link.  I like the old buildings from that era - they generally seem comfortable to be in.  I owned a 1908 brick house with 10' ceilings and big rooms in Silver City for quite a while.  It was a money pit of course but I enjoyed it.  Fortunately I sold it before the big crash.  The Californians who bought it said, "We couldn't believe we got it for such a good price", and I said, "I can't believe I sold it for so much".