The Peralta Stones

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that <snip>

Well a bit of checking, and according to Clay Wurst, there were 48 and a half pounds of ore in the box.  Can't verify this, but it is from Clay and his connection to Brownie and Dick Holmes is well known so could be true.  It seems a reasonable weight for that amount of gold ore, considering that a large coffee-pot full of placer gold weighs over 200 pounds.  Still no evidence of a nephew, not even a name for him. 

Oroblanco

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote: how much was found under his bed ?

Only Dick Holmes could answer that - and he is on the far side of the river so we can't ask him.  How much would fit in a shoe box?  By bulk, not a lot, but by weight a considerable amount. 

The statue could be blackened by painting also, or by the expedient of smoke from a fire.  I have another question for you - where does the gold statue originate?

Oroblanco

if i am right and the dick holmes acount is true but mixed up to confuse him from knowing he had 1/3 of the real dirrections than dick holmes could not have found the mine with what was given him and he never did , yet the clues would show up sooner or later  and they did ...

the dutchman knew julia or the boy could not find the mind with out the other 1/3 of the dirrections and they did not find it with out dick holmes dirrection , it looks like dick holmes did not share well with others lol .. after she took him to cort she never got the other dirrections from him !


good question if i am right the black color could have been the same way they were hideing the golden bells , painting them black with some kind of ash or paint .. if we are to beleave i am on the right track than the statue could have been part of the treasure trove taken to the tunnle thus the dutchman gives us the answer him self
 
i quote " than take the old goverment trail to san Carlos "

i found it funny that he said that in that way . when i checked there was a staint of san carlos . is he talking about that or the spainish king carlos , ether way i beleave he is talking about  san carlos to the south ....ether way a shiping port to spain or the staint of san carlos ..

i dont beleave this statue was made at the tunnle . but at one time there could have been fires melting ore and makeing bars . this could have been how they were makeing the objects turn black .... to me it is really sad to think of the indains working under those conditions in the mines ...

someone needs to set these legends free and let those souls free ..

 the treasure list was sealed 1646 yet it says the bells were cast in 1603 , 1687 kino was viceroyalty of mexico and leader of the jesuits ...so he played some part in the jesuits leader ship from 1683 to his death in 1711... the jesuit expulsion orderin 1767  so there is some confussion of dates and data .. yet the over legends could over lap more than we know ..but if you read the guadalupe de tayopa part of tim haydocks acount you read there was marriages and death in TAYOPA shortly before 1700 but this could in fact subport the idea the massacre happend just before the 1700 or there abouts up to about 1708 or even close to kinos own death  maybe kino in fact hide in southern caland died there shortly after the massacre happend ...see we dont know when the massacre happend but we dop know the the marragies were of pure spainish blood just before 1700 yet in 1703 came a royal decreeto some of the jesuits that were violating the law of the king of spain , dose these dates give us a over all time line for the massacre and the acount of the massacre it self . if so we can under stand what happend and why and where and how ...

it would have been about the right time for kino to play a leadership roll in what happend to the tayopa . yet we under stand kino saw the pit before this happend ...so the facts are there Kino could be the maker of the maps and the tunnle could be the tayopa mine and the massacre site could be the same massacre site in the supersititons, and the gold custody could in fact be the statue in the tunnle  under the pit ...

am i where the legends finialy become hole again ... only one way to find out ...

so yes i will go on record as stateing i beleave IMHO the massacre happend some time between 1700 - 1708... some where i read a statement that said the jesuits return the treasure trove to the tayopa for safe keeping if thats the case , than the tunnle under the LDM is the   tayopa .... and i got to say if it is not the tayopa i would be out right shocked . because they have gone to some real work to hide this tunnle ...IMHO it is the Tayopa ..

is the wagon trail we found a trail to the vault ? or is it near the rock house , the peralta hiden camp ?

if so it has been lost for 300 years about 1707

if thats true than we can shake with enjoyment to know that the city of Cibola  was on the 1539 map of Marcos de Niza.. because the tayopa  legend in this case would belay the cave of the secerd place and tie dirrectly to cibola , this could tell us the indain legends past down to the apache could be true ...and let me state one other fact , in the dick holmes acount the dutchman points out "a round Indain ruin of rocks.." and this ruin is some 200ft away from the LDM site in my research and a blowout of any size could have in fact blowen gold dust and coverd the area for a few hunderd ft away . thus the legend of the lost citys of gold and cibola would be some what true ..

dose that answer your question ..?

Thank you Blindbowman, it seems you are working off legends on many points.  For my own part, I fail to see a solid, verifiable connection between Tayopa, the Paramo placers, father Kino and the Jesuits, to the Superstition mountains.  For instance, some of the key points in the description of the location of Tayopa, such as being able to hear a dog barking in Guaynopa (a known locality in Sonora) on a clear night while standing in the collection of huts around the church of Tayopa, would seem to make it utterly impossible for the location of Tayopa to be very far from Guaynopa which is in Sonora.  I would very much like to suggest that you find a copy of a book, "Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver" by J. Frank Dobie, which has a lot of information on Tayopa.  As our friend Tropical Tramp has pointed out, one of Dobie's maps is in fact correct (a VERY rare thing for treasure maps) except for one important detail.  You may decide to make a second expedition, (after hunting the LDM of course!   ) south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church!  (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! ;))

Oroblanco

old mexico is a great place to party , but i been there did that ...lol . if i am right tayopa would be in a cayon and the cayon would act like a huge speaker  dish,,
in fact they would only be between 300 and 450 miles apart , on a still air you could hear the bells echoing in the cayons ...another factor would be the tayopa would have been to the southern most part of the mt range dirrecting the reflected echos to the south ...

you ask why would a man with a broken leg not go back . the acount says he died . latter that night with out pointing out his location . but i find a few things that need to reflect about his statements .

1 . he had no reason to lie he was dieing .
2.how far could he have gone .
3 . if the tunnle i found is the same one he found , than there was only two ways out of the cayon .with a broken leg you can out right rule out one . it took two man 3 hours to reach the other end and we were in good health at the time . and let me add this dirrection will test your health & skills  to its limets,

4. he had to the other way  and that means a longer harder way out of the mts and less water . thats IMHO why he was so sick when they found him !

they found him near the mouth of la barge cayon , and judgeing by his condition at the time felt he had came from a ways up that cayon when in fact he had never been in that cayon at all ...thus they thaught he had coverd  2-3  miles leaveing them some where in the area betweet labarge spring and charlebois spring....i may have thaught the same thing if i had not had my sighting in 1979 ....but one fact remains sound . if this was the case it explans and conferms the acount  that he never told them where the tunnle was before passing out ...

could  there be any sign of kino being at the peralta  hiden camp ( dutchmans hiden camp )or the tunnle ,  IMHO yes what ,  who knows ....

even finding the statue dose not mean kino put it there .what i would look for is the bells ..and other chruch stones,maps and records .the statue would be a plus but nothing like finding the bells of tayopa in the tunnle .or the other stones pointing out the rest of the 18 locations of the jesuits..the treasure trove is just treasure and has very little historic value in it self , the bells would conferm my logic and my acount of my sighting and what i beleave it is ..and prove without a dout that what i saw in 1979 is the LDM ...and prove within a reasonable dout that the tunnle is in fact the tayopa mine ...

so the fact is the LDM could be seen as high gradeing the tayopa , or could be the reason the tayopa was made in the frist place ..ether way we see a vein of ore that runs under the LDM and out the dirrection of the  tunnle ....if any ore remains at all in the tunnle ...

so yes i do beleave without a dout i have found the LDM and the tayopa tunnle...

finding it is one thing , collection evidence to prove it is , is something totally diffrent ... as you can see by scott woods post here ...

lets look at a few out comes . one the lost dutchman camp ground is no where near the true site ... lol

secound many things would change places ...

not to forget the LDM but you would now have a vast treasure trove and a far richer mine system with both the Tayopa and the LDM in the same place .. it could mean hunderds of millions to people & state of AZ ......

know lets look at the bad things , grred . we get to look at the truth about the mines . yes the LDM would be real but this would also prove the indains were telling the truth as well and each of us would have to face what happen to them in the mines , and take a good look at what we are and what our past was at that time ...

this people of these tribes had done nothing to the spainish or the jesuits . and look what they went threw for their freedom from the mines ...

in many ways this is the reason i am doing what i am doing ...

bad things happen and if i am right this explans why the tunnle was sealed up and left ...the death of thousands of indains and spainish and jesuits and many others ..."dose our greed blind us from their pain ?"

the  magic gate way  will open for me , i am a great copperhead shaman,  i know these things ...

i catch my self chanting of death and sorrows when i think of the tunnles darkness . indain spirits chant threw my being ...

no i am right , this is the sorce of the old ones smiles and cryies ...i remember it well from beyond this life and many past lifes . i am a shadow walker and a seer , a wind spirit , a wysard . and just me ...
 i often ask the wind where have my people gone .. where are they , the secerd place calls me the great white hairs call me . AH AH i hear it in my sleep , i hear it in my days ...

i hold my beads and hear them threw still waters and soft winds ...to the Apache i say your chiff live ... their spirits call out and ask to be heard ....

you all have your reasons i have mine ...

Bowman,

Prior to setting your conclusions in concrete, assuming that has not already occurred, you might want to read some of the excellent historical works that deal with the Apache, the Jesuits and the Jesuit expulsion.

For Jesuit/Kino history, you could read "Rim of Christendom" and "Kino's Historical Memoir Of Pimeria Alta" by, Herbert Eugene Bolton, Ph.D.  Both will give you a pretty good idea of what Father Kino did.....and when he did it.  There are many, many books about the history of the man, but those two would give you a pretty good perspective on his life in the New World.

There are many historical works on the expulsion as well.  One of the best accounts would be "Ducrue's Account of the Expulsion" by, Ernest J. Burrus, S. J.

You might try "The Apaches" by, Donald E. Worcester and "Apache Chronicle: The Story of the People" by, John Upton Terrell. To determine what the Apache presence was in the Superstitions Mountains (historically), "The Apache Indians" by Professor, Gordon C. Baldwin has some good information.

The reason I am suggesting these books, is because your posts do not conform with the history of the Jesuits, the Apache, or Arizona.  All three subjects are very well documented and available to anyone interested.

The Apache have their own (unwritten) history, which only recently is being put into print.

The writings of Treasure Hunters and the verbal stories by the same, are best describe as questionable.

Good luck and good hunting,

cj

Oroblanco,

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Hi CJ - not to take Mrs Oro's thunder but the Arizona state geology (monthly) newsletter had a couple of articles on it some years ago, yes gold will take on "desert varnish" over time, requiring around a thousand years to build up ONE millimeter of thickness, so....a gold statue would have to be laying exposed to the elements for quite some time to become black in that way. 

Oroblanco

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I don't doubt for a minute that is (pretty much) a true statement.  I would wonder, after that much time, if the desert varnish is actually growing on the gold, or the dirt and rock on the gold.  A layer of caked on dirt would be my first bet.  A bit of copper in the ore would be second in line.

I still have my doubts that desert varnish would attach itself to gold....alone.  Wouldn't be the first or last time I was wrong.

In any case, the time required takes us outside our time frame.

cj

=Oroblanco  south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church!  (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! ;))Oroblanco
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Keep yer cottin  pickin dowsing hooks off of my SILVER  ORO!  Beth is too young to be a widow! 

Tropical Tramp

=Oroblanco  south of the border to Old Mexico yourself, perhaps find the 23 million pesos in silver left in the vault near the church!  (I know I am seriously thinking of such a trip....silver is at $13.26 per ounce after all!!! Grin Wink)Oroblanco
**************

Keep yer cottin  pickin dowsing hooks off of my SILVER  ORO!  Beth is too young to be a widow!

Tropical Tramp

Well heck Tropical Tramp, we only live once, as that old saying goes, "Do ya want to live forever?" -dodging bullets is not my strong point (age does slow one down a wee bit) but the sight of those barrancas where you found Tayopa is enough to get an old prospector's blood simmering!  After all, what are a few bits of flying lead, when there are literally tons of silver involved?    ;)

That said, fear not any attempt (on my part) of dowsing the location of those ancient silver veins, I have never tried dowsing for minerals (only water and power lines) and don't expect that I have that ability.  My metal detector has proven itself time and again however, if I can get that close to the vein it will ring off true.  To be honest, I don't know if I would even try, as I no longer have a good prospecting dog to take along - the old one passed away last summer and the younger one had to be put down not long ago.  I rather like having a dog that will let you know if someone or something is poking around your camp at night, stays with you while traveling, and not be aggressive to livestock and people when not necessary.  Besides, if I were able to go on such an expedition, I would sure try to meet up with you in person for some pointers and advice.  Who knows, if I were to have a particularly good lead to follow up, I might even try to talk you into coming along!   ;)  Couldn't you use another rich mine or three to rake in more royalty checks?

Oroblanco

See this sort of stuff is where you lose me.   

That's cause you don't pack a third eye.

  ;)

Sometimes an attempt at levity (comic relief) is mis-interpreted as an insult - we treasure hunters have way too much in common NOT to have a good sense of humor so... I suspect there has been some mis-understanding. 
Oroblanco

Oroblanco,

Can't disagree with that.  Fritter, much like myself, feels the need to express his opinions on the posts that he reads.  Seems like just what forums were created for.

I will always answer for myself, if I feel slighted in some way.  I expect others will do the same.

I do try to inject a little humor in my retorts.  Some get it.....some don't.

Take care,

cj

A good laugh is very good medicine indeed!  Thanks Cactusjumper!
 ;)

Blindbowman wrote: in fact they would only be between 300 and 450 miles apart , on a still air you could hear the bells echoing in the cayons ...another factor would be the tayopa would have been to the southern most part of the mt range dirrecting the reflected echos to the south ...

Hmm...are you sure about that?  The eruption of Krakatoa volcano in Indonesia was heard in Jakarta, over 100 miles away, but that was considered to be the loudest sound in recorded history.  I can't imagine a dog barking would carry that distance.  I can occasionally hear trains passing some twenty miles away on a clear night, but again that is freight trains - pretty loud machines.  There are some odd sonic phenomena, like the strange "shadow effect" at the battle of Perryville KY but it is hard to imagine the sound of a dog barking, carrying more than a few miles at best.  As CJ and others have suggested, why not read up on the history of the Jesuits and father Kino, the Apaches in the Superstitions etc?  Will it make any difference in the value of the gold, if Kino and the Jesuits are not really involved?  It is interesting reading too!

Also, while I do not know the location of the first Tayopa, (la divina trinidad) the one reputedly so close to Guaynopa, we do know Guaynopa is not 300 miles from the Superstitions, don't know the exact distance but would bet it is less than 200.    However if it were 100 miles, it would still seem to be much too far for the sound of a dog barking or bell ringing to carry that distance, especially considering the mountainous AND flat terrain between the two locations.

Oroblanco,

Very little sound penetrates the interior of the Superstitions from the world outside.

In fact, other than the sounds of planes and helicopters, critters and the other sounds of mother nature, I have never heard anything from outside its fortress walls.  I have, like everyone who has spent any time in there, heard the unexplained booming sounds, on occasion.  I like to think it's a warning from the tommy-knockers that inhabit all the old mines in the area.

Since none of us were there, the only way we can find out what happened in the era we are interested in, is to read the informed writings of the historians and the contemporaneous accounts of those who were there.  When the authors of treasure stories stray from those documented facts, we need to place their writings in the proper category......historical novels.

That would remain true, until someone like Bowman lifts them out of the realm of legend and rewrites known history.  That has happened on occasion and, no doubt, will happen again.  In this world, history can be changed with the simple turn of a spade.

In Bowman's case, the evidence is overwhelming that his story is not based on any known facts.  One wonders why he would not just hike in to the LDM with a few friends, and hike back out the same day.  He could then spend his money on a proper expedition.

Many an "all seeing eye" has turned out to be blind to the facts on the ground.

On the other hand, it will be the adventure of a lifetime, and probably worth whatever it costs.

cj

quality of evidence : it plays a roll in finding these treasures and being able to clam them and prove they are the real treasure is far harder than most of you know .. some of you long time treasure hunters under stand what i am saying ...

to say you will go in and find it is one thing to go in and take 3or 4 people with you and risk their lives and your own for 26 days is totally diffrent . month and months of planing . i would not carrelessly risk anyones life . life is worth far more than any treasure could ever be ..

and as far as quality of evidence : that is the key . its not always who has the fact from a given book or who talk to who . it could be how you collect the evidence and what is evidence value .. let me explan say the nephew site is the real nephews grave site . we have not touched the site in any way . yet the evidence of that site is pure . next time we will inspect the site with a hand held metal detector to see if any metal is in the site before we even try to inspect the frist few layers of this site ..if we find a skull or any metal the site is than off lemits and we cover it in plastic .to protech its evidence value ...do i want to dig it up and see whats there hell ya , but that would not preserve the quality of the evidence in question ,some of  you guys must watch CSI right . its the same game if we are to learn from the very little evidence that remains we must look closer we must look with more than just our eyes ..and the environment rules out some of the equipment before we even try it in those conditions ..

so what do we have . in my case yes i have a few gifts that i can use , but we also have the common sense god gave us .. i stoped in one area and close my eyes  and just sat there for a few mins , thats how i found the cave with the spainish arrow . i heard it , not the cave as much as the soft wind blowing threw its openings i could sense it was there ...

before i even looked .the reality is we can hear far more than we try to under stand , sub level sounds are all around us all the time ..

thats how the nephew site was found . the hair on my neck was standing up and i knew something was there in the area . what was a matter of stoping and looking around , i did not know what i was looking for yet i knew something was there . at the time i beleaved the grave site was up on a mt . not where i found it . the clues did in fact relate to its location in the cayon yet no one translated the clues in the common sense of what they had said . even i saw no reason to beleave other wise at the time . yet there it was under a shelving rock in plan sight . and after i looked at the values of where the site was it made full sense and helped add to other evidences yet to found . its much like the spainish arrow and the wagon trail i felt the wagon trail but did not know what it was at the time , some things dont want to be found at frist sight , they fear us and hide like gost around us in plan veiw . i walked right over the wagon trail at one point and never knew it . so quality of evidence may be only one of the things we did to take a good look at .. thats why i find it so importain to take over 12,000 pictures . its not the fact a picture can tell a thousand words , my question is what thousand words will you see from each given location ...could the sites be lost between the lines of sight . and i can only say yes the shadows of the area play a trick on the eyes and mind changeing our over veiw and senses and what we feel and beleave relate to those inputs to our senses ...

we are as much in fault as the conditions of the environment , what we beleave is a conditioning with in us , and what is out there for evidence may be beyond the common under standing of mankind . there is a place there in the mts . i sense it and it is real and is beyondd this world ..odd to both deminssions the spirit world and this reality ... it is in two places and i dont under stand it yet  but i will wait and let it come to me . did the spainish deface the indain ruins and take things from that secerd place and hide them in the tunnle or is there other secerd things from times long past in the tunnle and i have yet to see them clearly to know they are from two diffrent places ...

these are trible things and i do sense them they are there ,,i will in all my wisdom protech them as evidence as much as i would of anything in gods creation for nothing was placed apone this earth or in these realitys and deminssions with out the creaters under standing ...

i walk threw thousands of skulls in the tunnles path yet i fear not the death of those who came before me ...
 for death is fallen to my faith is the creator and the spirits of my chiffs before me ...

i do not fear what the mts could do to me . any more than i fear my self and what i could do to them ..

to hold the treasures in your hands is as close as reaching down and picking up a hand full of sand and rock and knowing the earth thats lives there in those mts . it is all around you and it is beautfull to the senses ...

i can worship the time they old ones had free in the mts high up in a place now ruins lay . so no i will not touch the ruins i will set out side its mighty walls few see . i will see the ruin of time yet in my eyes i sense the great tribe of its time and past ...i will hear its hiden traped sounds threw my soul and being . . i will step over and dance the thunder dance of rain and wind . i am caller a seer and i can call the winds and rains , the soft snow and the screams of the past . let me and them relive the cryies and the pain togather . let us share the time and hope i can bring new life to those old spirits .yet preserve their beings and secerd places for all others who come beyond our days ..


you make fun of me , i know , i under stand , do you under stand me .....


i am not there for the wealth even with nothing in my hand i am wealthy in my being and this life will come and go ....

can you ste around the ruins and hear them as i do ... if you can not i feel sorry for you ...
 what happend to them is a matter of time . the white mans war took more than it gave to them . can we learn from this can we under stand what happend and why . can we asure that it will not happen again .

history is being created around us all the time yet few stop to see it and know it for what it is . can the realityies of the future be changed . will we ever learn from the misteaks made long ago ...


you did not ask me to hunt for the LDM i did not came here to hear storyies .. i came here because this is my path and what you all know is of some value to it self if not others around you . you are all great in your own ways . not my way or yours . the ways of your tribes . if you know or under stand them or even beleave they are still there ..

you can lol at me , i am in aw , i am my self and i am free to come and go as i wish . and some times in life and death respect is all we can wish for yet never forget the gift god gave us all the will to wish at all ...

Hi:  who is laughing?  Certainly not me.

Tropical Tramp

Bowman,

I am not laughing.

Because I don't know you, and I assume no one else here does either, I am trying to draw you into revealing the true depths of your beliefs and the truth of your comments.  Not about the truth of the location of the LDM (don't need that), but about the reality of your going into the Superstition Mountains for 26 days.

Having made that trip many times over a forty-seven year period, I believe I have some knowledge about the dangers and joys of the experience.  It was always a hobby.  I never let it interfere with the reality of having a full life outside of the legends and lore.

I have a few questions:  If you get to your location and find that the entrance to the pit has been blown shut, what will you do?  If you find the tunnel, and it is rocked shut, what will you do? 

Pictures will not show what is inside.  Your request will not be the first for a Treasure Trove Permit and you will not be the first with pictures and a story.  You may very well be the first "Shaman", but that may not be something you should use as a tool of persuasion.

Right now, your reality seems to be in your mind.  Once in the mountains.....they become the reality.  That reality is harsh and dangerous.

Nzhogo nandago (Take care),

Joe Ribaudo

" If you find the tunnel, and it is rocked shut," 



what will i do ?

i would go home and plan a  expedition with what i needed to get the permits and safely inspect the tunnle ...sticking your head in a hole out in those mts maynot be a good idea, if you know what i mean ! .  timbers could be missing  from the shaft and something coverd in dust  could be standing in the entence about 20 ft back from the opening , with no rope or gun at the time or any way out of the tunnle it would have been totally dum and one hell of a risk of life to enter the tunnle with no way out or any way to defend your self from what could be in the tunnle ... remember the tunnle could very well be booby traped ...

you could fall in the  hole and brake a leg  and  getting out would be a real bitc-...and it  could be  a 9 ft stright drop ...with no way to stop your self from falling ...

na that could never happen ...lol

Bowman,

Do you believe a shaft and a tunnel will be sufficient evidence to get a Treasure Trove Permit?  Do you know what is required in time and evidence to get such a permit?  How many years do you think it will take.....just to get a yes or no?  As far as I know, only one permit has ever been issued.

You will need lawyers, archaeologists, environmental specialists, thousands of dollars in expenses and a good proof reader.  A few sharp machetes will also be required.  That's just the tip of the iceberg.

If you have actually located the LDM, it is likely you will be a few years short.

All of this is just to let you know.....it won't be a walk in the park.  The "powers that be" will not be helping you along the way.  They will throw every obstacle they can conjure up to impede your success.

On that high note......Good luck and good hunting.

cj

Blindbowman I am not laughing at you - though sometimes I can't tell if you are fooling (playing with us here) or just waxing poetic.  Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco

in reality i dont think it will ever get that far , if you found the real treasure troves the goverment would step in before you could get any permits .....

it may take years to get the permits i think the main idea here is to have out right proff frist and protect the proff  in a safe place  .. if you do not touch the treasure troves and take pictures only, the pictures are yours , you can do with them what you want ...if in fact you do not touch any given object you can not know if it is real or not could you ?

it is a odd fact of law . to see something and know it is there is not the same as touching it and knowing it is real . one is opioion and the other is fact ...

its a nice way to side step the facts untill you want to make your find fact ...

the treasure trove permit states the facts and the laws and rules very planly to the letter ...

and No a tunnle and or the shaft are not evidence enough for the permits . you would have to prove the tunnle or the shaft had dirrectly been related to the legends and or would have to prove evidence of any  treasure , real objects . related to a given treasure  trove .. i think if you found a gold statue they would give you a permit because they would want to inspect the statue and recover it ..

do you think the goverment will let you take a golden statue out of those mts by your self .. you would be a bigger fool than i am if you think so ...


if you did find a treasure a real treasure they would be there so fast your find would vanish in hours ...


those rules and permits are for those hunting not in the case if one was real and was fact and found ...

thats why the bad ass camera thousands of pictures hard to prove those wrong ...

if you found the LDM and did prrrove it you would not have to hunt for those people they would find you lol ... and every body and their mother and her mother's mother ...lol

no i know it could take years to complete the task ..

[=cactusjumper link=  You will need lawyers, archaeologists, environmental specialists, thousands of dollars in expenses and a good proof reader.  A few sharp machetes will also be required.  That's just the tip of the ice berg.cj

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Snifff Cactus,  tell me,   sniff ]

Tropical Tramp

=the blindbowman link=
it is a odd fact of law .     " to see something and know it is there is not the same as touching it and knowing it is real"    . one is opioion and the other is fact ...

if you found the LDM and did prrrove it you would not have to hunt for those people they would find you lol ... and every body and their mother and her mother's mother ...lol
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Sheesh tell me  bowman  sigh
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Tropical Tramp

]

[=Oroblanco link=
Well heck Tropical Tramp, we only live once, )  but the sight of those barrancas where you found Tayopa is enough to get an old prospector's blood simmering! 

**************

They are loaded with the Pt metals also ORO.  You will most probably be there one of these days.   Djui will be your bearer of the cold beer.  (6000 ft.)  and the pick & shovel guy.   Maybe we can entice Gollum  to enter the main deposit,  there is an almost certainty that here are a few interesting traps still active in there .  better him than we un's.
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Tropical Tramp

  ;)
Djui wrote: Gimme a pick and shovel, I already got gloves!  Grin I'll get Oro's beer anyday Smiley
Randy - not fair, since you probably already heard I can't have alcohol, so the beer load would be really for you!  I do have a spare pick and shovel around here though, only "slightly used" *(might need new handles)*

Tropical tramp wrote:Maybe we can entice Gollum  to enter the main deposit,  there is an almost certainty that here are a few interesting traps still active in there

  ;)

=Oroblanco but would bet it is less than 200.    However if it were 100 miles, it would still seem to be much too far for the sound of a dog barking or bell ringing to carry that distance, especially considering the mountainous AND flat terrain between the two locations.

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HI Buddy ORO, try around 3- 400 miles, with multiple  mountain ridges between.

Tropical Tramp

[=mrs.oroblanco ]
You will need an extra pack for his coffee and soda, though!!!
**************

All he gets is cold creek water sheehs

Tropical Tramp

B


[/quote]

HOWDY Joseph! 
Tropical Tramp wrote: around 3- 400 miles

That would make the idea of a sound of a dog barking, carrying that far, much less credible.  I have asked Blindbowman why he is convinced there are Jesuits and father Kino involved, but his reply is based on a conclusion that only Kino could be responsible; I wish him luck and good hunting, and who knows what he will find?  I sure cannot say it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE, since Kino did explore southern Arizona and founded missions, though any mine(s) put in to the Superstitions by Jesuits must have been super, super-secret as we have no record of any, and if they truly did have any mines in the Superstitions, it is highly unlikely to be Tayope.  Either way he is virtually certain to have a great time, and the visual scenery alone is a "treasure" worth the trip.

[=mrs.oroblanco ]
You will need an extra pack for his coffee and soda, though!!! Grin Grin Grin Grin
**************

All he gets is cold creek water sheehs

Tropical Tramp

HEY at least it is COLD!!  ;) I won't mention how "tasty" hot, dirty water can be when you are thirsty enough, nor  pee-ss-warm water in a hot rock pool, literally teeming with little critters you have to strain through your teeth or chew before you swallow! 

Come to think of it, with NO coffee, I would go into withdrawals!!!    Tea maybe?  Not to worry though, your silver is safe mi amigo, the regulations on bringing horses across the border have me worried - several innoculations required etc, the old horse trailer lights are all busted,  plus I have no good prospecting dog.  I wonder what the regs are on bringing a dog across the border, if I did have one?   

Oroblanco

Djui5 wrote: ha! Oro and I are on the same page then! Can't dig when your drunk right? 

Hi buddy!  No, can't have alcohol with my meds - doesn't mix well.  I did try it once, figuring the doc was full of crap, only to be puking for hours afterwards.  I doubt I could dig too well while under the influence though!  Are you a coffee addict too?

Oroblanco

What is this y'all are trying to wrangle me into? I don't mind tripping off a few death traps. Of course, I will have to have Jose with me (as bait).

Don't worry Jose, I have it all figured out.........We'll tie a rope around you, and you can walk ahead of me. If the floor drops out from underneath you, and I'm not too drunk on Randy's Brews, I may be able to save you, but if not, at least we will know where one trap was.

Best,

Mike

 

  ;)

Hi Mike buddy!  All my fault, as I had drifted way, way off topic with some new (or really OLD to be honest) ideas about taking a little trip to hunt for Tayopa.  In a way it is Tropical Tramp's fault - he went and posted those photos of that gorgeous country, which as you know is more than enough to get an old prospector's heart pumping! 

I do wish I had figured out that there were THREE Tayopa's as Tropical Tramp pointed out, perhaps I would have done this sooner (and in better physical shape, younger age etc) but we get too soon old, too late sh-mart as they say.  It makes sense, as for instance there is no way you can stand on the Mesa of the Bell Maker and have the sun set over Tayopa #1 - (it DOES fit with Tayopa #3) fitting the clues together if there were only ONE location just would NOT work, at least I could not make them fit.  Anyway Joseph has "volunteered" your services - and you have been to old Mexico a time or three anyway so....who knows?    ;)

Being honest though, I don't know if I would do it, as I mentioned I don't have a good dog for such a trip, and the horses would have to be inoculated (not sure what for exactly) the horse trailer lights are all broken, not to mention I would have to "put off" quite a number of other projects in order to go.  It is fun to think about doing,  perhaps.....but can't do anything until after March 2nd at any rate.

Oroblanco

lets look at a few odd facts . if there was a real tayopa .and i do mean a real tayopa with all the wealth and treasure stated . and Kino was the jesuit leader that had to conseal this location . he could have very well took the locations of other old mines and confused the clues to hide the Real tayopa & the treausre trove in the tunnle . yet if he was going to do that it would have been reported to rome and , in fact it was . and we even have that document and did not know its translation  ., i have been working on this odd code kino was useing and ii got to say it can be very confuseing at times but its one hell of a code when you can read it ...

what was writen on the bells . Tayopa , Remedios, piedad...

Tayopa-------at pa -----------remove (oy )

Remedios ----rome  is----------remove (de)

Piedad---------Paid------------remove( ed)

so they are at the tunnle called pa and the treasure listed is in the tunnle . i guess enough to pay rome ...(at pa,  rome is paid ) ! i dont think rome ever got the payment ! and i know where pa is , its not in mexico its in the tunnle across from the rock house i found ...note that the word (pa)  coded becomes pima an the TA or (At ) refering to the Ancients...

so if this could be the case than the code could give us a clue to where this all started . and it dose .with  Marcos de niza in 1539 and he took the mine from the .....opata....now get smarter than the clues  and reverse the code and you get  ( ta- y- opa) ....thats where the name tayopa came from IMHO ...but IMHO it was past down to them as it has been threw out time ...

so even if kino knew the code and about the maps and made the stones , i could be wrong , marcos could have made the peralta -ruth map & the stones . Kino just found the evidence and tryed to help hide the treasures and the locations ...

but if these are the real turn of events than the cave or tunnle area is far older than exspect it could be , 1539 ...would be more like 1000 years earlyer or even back before christ .....!   IMHO we could be talking aztec or there abouts ...

sorry i need to get a cup of coffie ... but think of this why debate the tayopa mine , if its only a small part of the real site history ? i am sorry you did catch the marcos de niza connection . what do you get when you code Sierra madre (Sir Mar de) ... remeber what was stated in the kino legend about  something happening and the indains went nuts i think the word coded in reverse says it all (sir mar padre ) & ( ma   red ) .....i think you can get the main idea of what took place and why the indain reacted the way they did ...

see the code is in two parts . forward and reverse , it goes back to before christ and IMHO could be  the true bible code ...but than again it could just be the effects of this home made fudge...

=cactusjumper B,

Not sure that desert varnish actually forms on gold.cj
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the varish is from other metals, gernerally iron or Manganese . gold itself probably does not change.

Tropical Tramp

[after]

Now con-sarn it - Blindbowman have you considered the time line involved here?  Father Eusebio Kino, (the famous one) was born in 1644.  He became a member of the Society of Jesus in 1665, when he was 21.  Kino left Spain in 1681 for Mexico, and had several activities before arriving in Sonora, which at that time included Pimeria Alta (southern Arizona) in 1687.  Now why is this of any importance?  Well you might ask......

The first Tayopa, later renamed La Divina Trinidada, located near Guaynopa, was discovered around 1603, or 1577 according to another source.  (Some say Tayopa is referenced as early as 1538 by the name "Topira" but in my opinion this is incorrect.  I think the 1577 date is correct, as the date of 1603 cast in one bell may not refer to the date of discovery but of casting the bell or building the church.)  The main silver mine was in bonanza (producing tremendous quantities of silver) for years, until an Apache raid literally wiped out the inhabitants to a man.  This raid occurred in 1648.  Another version states that Tayopa as well as Guaynopa and Guaynopita were razed to the ground by a combined Pima/Opata revolt in 1646.

See a problem yet my friend?  Kino did not arrive in Sonora until 1687, nearly FORTY YEARS after the most famous Tayopa had been LOST.  He could not KNOW where the original Tayopa was located, (no one did after 1648) -so could not produce a map to it.  Kino can be ruled out as far as any connections to Tayopa are concerned. 

This should not make a hill of beans-worth of difference, if you should discover a cache of treasure or a rich lost mine, the exact identity of the treasure and mine can be researched and proven AFTER recovering it.  I don't think you are hitching your mule to a theory based on Tayopa + Kino in the Superstitions as the whole reason for your expedition anyway, you are really seeking truth, regardless of what that truth turns out to be - correct? 

Regardless of theory, good luck and good hunting to you Blindbowman, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Oroblanco

=Oroblanco I won't mention how "tasty" hot, dirty water can be when you are thirsty enough, nor  pee-ss-warm water in a hot rock pool, literally teeming with little critters you have to strain through your teeth or chew before you swallow! 
*****************
Sigh I have done that too many times , or out of a cow track.   sheesh

Ugh that brought back memories when we lost a guy up in the Bacatetes in Yaqui country.  He had been gone for two days and we couldn't leave the camp site to go for water or provisions, everyone was looking for him ..   So we had to drink from an earth dam with about about 2 ft of very mixed  er ah umm  hmm water?.   One in which the cows just stood spread legged taking it in one end and and dribling it out the other end.  This was the ONLY water available.  No matter how much we boiled it, it still tasted and smelled like   er  ah your coffee.? sigh what one won't do for a missing comrade.

Incidentally he crossed the entire Bacatetes and ended up at a ranch . The rancher took him to Guaymas  where he hopped a bus back to Obregon , picked up fresh provisions and brought them back to camp on the 5 th day.   We were checking the buzzards for his dehydrated carcass.

Basic law in the brush, you are responsible for your partners, period.
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.  I wonder what the regs are on bringing a dog across the border, if I did have one?  Oroblanco
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None that I know of. Rabies shots of course. I already Have my 13 in mi tummy  so I am ok.
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Tropical Tramp

HI pepes  a hint.

Tayopa was the name of the actual center of a group of mines. All of which can legitimately be called the mines of tayopa.

Since they were spread out some  50 miles away from the Church of Tayopa #1, it is possible that one of the outlying Tayopa mines was close enough to be heard.


Tayopa was Ag, The Paramo was AU.  Pt metals were also found in paying quantities.


All vertical hydro-thermal deposits

Tropical Tramp

Dang Tropical Tramp, now I think I will have to go start yet another thread!  Guess I will do that...
Oroblanco

Oroblanco,

"Now con-sarn it - Blindbowman have you considered the time line involved here?  Father Eusebio Kino, (the famous one) was born in 1644.  He became a member of the Society of Jesus in 1665, when he was 21.  Kino left Spain in 1681 for Mexico, and had several activities before arriving in Sonora, which at that time included Pimeria Alta (southern Arizona) in 1687.  Now why is this of any importance?  Well you might ask......"

Few treasure hunters have taken the time, as you seem to have, to really study the history of the Jesuits in Mexico or of Father Kino specifically.

"Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver" seems to be the "Bible" and principle source of reference for many.  "An American Original:  The Life Of J. Frank Dobie" by, Lon Tinkle gives a pretty good insight into Dobie's main interest in life, namely folklore.  Having said that, Dobie was one of the great experts on the legend of Tayopa.

I get a lot of chuckles out of reading some of the bending of history that takes place here, and in other forums, all to justify someones belief in Jesuit Treasure.  Kino's first visit to Sonora, in Feb. 1687 is well documented, but that is not enough evidence to dispel legends.  "What about his undocumented visits?"

Because I once believed that the Stone Maps led to a Jesuit Treasure, I spent a lot of time and money educating myself on the related history.  The time was not wasted, and I still enjoy reading about it.  I am no expert, but I am a fan of history.

cj

Thank you, Cactusjumper, for the kind words - much of this info is available online.  I only wanted to point out the timeline problems with connecting father Kino-to-Tayopa-to the Superstitions, which I think he may have missed.  It should make no difference in his exploration and any discoveries can be positively identified after recovering them.  Where Tayopa is concerned, we have almost as tangled a 'minefield' of BS and conflicting stories as with the LDM.  Mitchell for instance, a treasure-author I enjoy reading, even has the date of Tayopa's discovery as 1703!  This date does not agree with any other source I could find, but might fit with Tayopa #2, "Dios Padre".  I do wish I had figured out (as Tropical Tramp did, successfully) that there were really three Tayopa's over the years, in three separate locations, in retrospect it explains a great many things.

Oroblanco

thanks for helping me make sence of something that has been driveing me nuts for weeks  . at one point i thaught the letters P W were writen under the spainish arrow . after takeing a secound look the P is the letters (DE)and the e is almost worn off  ,the W is not a W at all is a (VA ) and you can just make out the other two letters CA,  how do i know , because lower on the wall i could see part of another word but i only got the last 3 letters of the word ( I R A ) and  i thaught it was the chruch letters  on the cross . but now it makes sence,  its the last 3 letter of the word Topira , i guess your right  . i have found  the Topira  ...

if this is the case ,than vaca found the mine or the indains told him about it ...and that makes sence because that must of been how Marcos de niza learn of cibola , note marcos uses the same map as vaca route in 1535-36 and uses the same map in 1539 , so now it make a better logic , the mine is a older mine  and very well hiden ,, ..and the jesuit treasure trove  is in the tunnle ...that would be very smart because thats as far away from the sea and the spainish as the jesuits could get the treasure from the spainish ..


now it makes sence kino tryed to reopen one of the mines but it was not the Tayopa .. it was the Topira but when all hell broke lose he hide the jesuit  treasure trove in the tunnle at Topira ...because it was the one tunnle that he knew no one would find ....

now this could get very interesting  ...so what we can logically figer out at this point is IMHO the tunnle i have found could be  the Topira founded in 1535-36 by Cabeza de vaca ...

just a real good guess ...maybe we are both right and both wrong at the same time for two diffrent reasons , because there are two diffrent mines being confused ...now ask your self wich is the real  mine  .is the wealthy mine the topira or the tayopa....if what you said Oro is true than the topira is the older of the two if i am right ..its where the jesuit put the treasure trove ...

Thank you, Cactusjumper, for the kind words - much of this info is available online.  I only wanted to point out the timeline problems with connecting father Kino-to-Tayopa-to the Superstitions, which I think he may have missed.  It should make no difference in his exploration and any discoveries can be positively identified after recovering them.  Where Tayopa is concerned, we have almost as tangled a 'minefield' of BS and conflicting stories as with the LDM.  Mitchell for instance, a treasure-author I enjoy reading, even has the date of Tayopa's discovery as 1703!  This date does not agree with any other source I could find, but might fit with Tayopa #2, "Dios Padre".  I do wish I had figured out (as Tropical Tramp did, successfully) that there were really three Tayopa's over the years, in three separate locations, in retrospect it explains a great many things.

Oroblanco

thats make sence the 1703 is not when the mine was discoverd,  it was when it was coverd over by kino and it was not the Tayopa it was the Topira ...  may be the real mines name changed  "dois padre" to the "Topira" than to the "Tayopa " the" Pa"  is what it is called in the Peralta Ruth map .  i found it , you figer out what to call it!and wich one it is ...?

you can call it what ever you want . Tayopa #1 ,#2 or # 3 or #"  pa" the topira ...

i found the  mine  , spell it any way you want ...

[don't]

Blindbowman wrote:i found the  mine  , spell it any way you want ...

What's in a name, anyway?  The only reason I mentioned the Topira mine was that some who have searched for Tayopa thought this was the earliest reference to it, just spelled differently; you will find Tayopa spelled in a number of different ways in the old archives - I think some have been listed here but Tayopa and Tayope are common use today.  I have seen it spelled Taiope, Ti-opa, Taope, Teyopi, etc and Tropical Tramp mentioned some that I missed.  The next trick is proving that what you have found IS a mine, then figure out who created it and when.  If you were to find old church treasures, even that is not a LOCK that it was Jesuits involved, remember there were OTHER missionaries active in the southwest - and they took over when the Jesuits were driven out - the Franciscans; there were also other foreign powers involved, the Russians coming from the north, the Dutch coming from the Pacific (where they acted as "pirates" attacking all Spanish shipping they could find, the Jesuits were accused of being in league secretly with the Dutch BTW in a conspiracy to expel the Spanish from the New World) and the French later. 

Blindbowman, why would you say it was de Vaca who found Topira?  Also, most place Topira in Durango, not Sonora (or Pimeria Alta/southern Arizona) and Coronado looked for it, after Mendoza had heard of the gold and gems (this is why I don't believe that references to Topira were really talking about Tayopa).....so not sure why you would make this connection to the Superstitions.  Topira = Tayopa?  No.....but the Topira of old records was in what is today Durango, not Arizona.

Oroblanco

you got a good point after thinking about it . Oro . at the time all i can say is the letters IRA are on the wall under the spainish arrow and the word de vaca is on the wall also . , i know the name of the mine is referd to as Pa that i can prove out right by the peralta -ruth map . because it is 100% correct to the mines location .. ORo i am going to PM you and ask you something if you could help maybe we can clear up some of the confussion about wich mine this ...

=mrs.oroblanco ]
Hey Mike,Just couldn't find a sacrificial virgin  ;Db
***********

NOT WHILE WE HAVE HIM!  HE is expendable, they are not!

Sheehs

Tropical Tramp  KOV     (keeper pf the royal er  ah Virgins.)

Topira / i  has been worked since the  begining, and is still being worked.  It is  in the Durago /Sinaloa border.

Tropical Tramp
p.s.  I have refered to Mithcel , Dobie  etc before, they wrote with , ah shall we say, literary  abandon.  None have ever been to Tayopa.  Dobie's remark on the Grizzly being on the cross roads is correct though.

[Durango]

Oroblanco,

I would say you have your information on Topira down pat.

"On his return to Culiacán a few weeks later, Marcos gave an account of his discoveries in glowing words, although it is likely that he saw very little and understood only imperfectly what was told him. The Indians of Topira, he said, had come out to receive him joyously. "'There are no great cities there, but the houses are built of stone and are very good, and in them they have a great store of gold, which is as it were lost, because they do not know what use to put it to.'"  The Durango Indians did have a quantity of placer gold which they used in trade with the coast, and it was probably this gold that had lured Guzmán to exhaust his forces in repeated attempts to penetrate the sierras in 1531. It is harder to find any shadow of foundation for the wonderful story of Marcos that "'the people wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their bodies; they are valiant, having very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after divers shapes of beasts.'" They were willing, after a little persuasion from Marcos, to become Christians and subjects of Spain, and to trade their gold for things more useful to them.

This report of Marcos--to which he added a hearsay account of the barbarous savages of the interior, and their temples of skulls and living sacrifices of men on burning pyres--was so promising that Coronado decided to conquer Topira."  "CORONADO'S QUEST" by, A. Grove Day.  (emphasis in bold by cj)

cj

thats funny you say that Cj . "and their temples of skulls" this is just what i sense when i key into the tunnle ...thats a good discription .... my point was if vaca herd of the cave /tunnle from the indains and Marcos herd it from vaca and Coronado got it from them and so on and so on ..untill the cain was broken and the mine was lost ...

this dose nt make any sense ... the mine i found is the one in the peralta ruth map than what mine is it ? and its from about 1535 if the words de vaca stand for cabeza .. so why confuse the two wordings Tayopa and Topira if the mine could be knows as  PA is this a mine know as PA that no one knows about or is the names just being confussed to hide the real name of this mine ,or the rock house it self , if the code holds true the ma and pa would be part of the real name , and the real name would be 6 letters long something like piamia  or piamia, or it could have a 7th letter added .or one removed like pimeria or paramo,

 is the statement . " the richest mines of the world " refering to the Tayopa ,Topira and this mine i can only name by name as ( Pa ) at this point in time, maybe it is the oldest of the 3 ...maybe its not ether of the other two ...anyone got any idea of what mine this is,,,,,

its funny we talk about the peralta stones and the peralta ruth map and no one has any real idea what mine they are refering to lol

if what i saw is the LDM and it dose show up on both the peralta stones and the peralta ruth map ... than this mine may have been related to the other two or is one of them or a mine unknown ,,....i find that hard to beleave . this cave opening or tunnle is 9ft around and as far as i could tell over a 100ft deep aand its at lest 200 years or more old ..IMHO

no wonder the indains were so pist off . someone killed there PA ! lol

may be the mines real name was the MaPa like the peralta -ruth map said it was . we just misunder stood it because we wanted it to be some other well know legendary mine ...maybe it did not say perfil map a'  ... it could have ment perfil Ma'Pa.....good luck figer that one out ! lol

Bowman,

De Vaca means, Of Cow.  Joke from a cowpuncher?

cj

ha ha ... i dont under stand what all this means yet but i am going back to the photos  one by one , last night i found the # 4 and upside down V beside it over the tunnle area .. dose it stand for ( 4 mts aline ) i also found in that same area a triangle with a dot in the medle and a few ft away a circle with a dot ...

i guess my work has just begone...

at this point i have know idea of what this mines real name is or if it even matters at this point in time ...

cj: " ... and it was probably this gold that had lured Guzmán to exhaust his forces in repeated attempts to penetrate the sierras in 1531. It is harder to find any shadow of foundation for the wonderful story of Marcos that "'the people wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their bodies; they are valiant, having very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after divers shapes of beasts.'" They were willing, after a little persuasion from Marcos, to become Christians and subjects of Spain, and to trade their gold for things more useful to them.

This report of Marcos--to which he added a hearsay account of the barbarous savages of the interior, and their temples of skulls and living sacrifices of men on burning pyres--was so promising that Coronado decided to conquer Topira."  "CORONADO'S QUEST" by, A. Grove Day...."

Mr. Day's poetic license notwithstanding, you've opened up an interesting oyster here cj, maybe one with a pearl.  It's too bad we don't have more evidence of Guzman's activities on the Northern Frontier and the information that drove his efforts.  Something apparently important lured his bad ass to this previously unexplored region.  Emeralds, eh?  Cabeza de Vaca's accounts of emerald jewelry and emerald arrowheads have long been dismissed as 'fanciful'.  However, when Mel Fisher recovered a billion dollars worth of emeralds on the Atocha (not listed on the ship's manifest), he didn't merely pocket them ... he presumably had aquired enough information to attempt to locate their source.  I can tell you where he was looking (based on written correspondence from his company with certain people in NM) - at a specific site generally along Cabeza de Vaca's travel route beyond the Northern Frontier.  Again, as I've mentioned elsewhere, Marcos de Niza, the enigmatic and controversial Italian Franciscan who explored this region in 1539 (led by Estevanico, a member of the de Vaca party), is the wild card in this saga.  Marcos' activities don't shed much light on the locations of either the LDM or Tayopa, but they may yet lead to an even larger discovery.

i just got done reading that same report on marcos .... the modern genaration is incompetent , that me prove it .. frist my son in law tells me his phone chager is not working right , than a few days latter he tells me his phone chager is not working right ... a few more days go by and he says you got it ! his phone chager is not working right . i say why dont you have it fixed than . he says ok . so he comes back a few days latter bitc-en  that they said the chager dosent fit his phone and he had to order a new for his phone and they told him it would take two weeks , and i ask them if thats the case did they give you back your old broken chager he said i told thewm to throw it away . than he ask me if he can use my phone because i dont use it very much . i say Ok and he goes over and gets the phone and ask me where the chager is . i go over and look and there is his cbroken chager on the window sile... incompetent !now i got to wait to get another phone charger the same way he dose . and there was nothing wrong with my chager to start with ...

so here i am wondering if hunting for the lost dutchman mine is smarter than the level of the kids now days ...

its been one of those weeks ...

this kid ask me if he can go with me on my next trip i said , hell no !

he 23 and acts like 12 ....

yes springfield i agree . we asume the location of the peralta -ruth map had a relationship to the DLM and than i beleave it could relate to the tayopa or the topira . now all we can besure of it is a very very old mine and fits the peralta-ruth map and the peralta stones ...and the dutchman clues yet the dtuchman mine may be related and his past is late 1800's it dose not mean this tunnle mine or the pit are that new...,

in fact at this point i can prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer  by the looks of the evidence being found around them ...

another good point to make here is . even if the DLM was true it dose not mean that the mine and the tunnle are not much older than the LDM legend and thats just what i am finding at this time ...

HI bowman, one can have fun with that, but don't put too much into finding what you hope that you are seeing  unless  based upon other stories /  data.  




Tayopa-------at pa -----------remove (oy ) Top, Tap, Toy, yep, pat, pet, pay pot, ya, yap,   etc.

Remedios ----rome  is----------remove (de) medios, Dios, dime, red, deer, dore, rim, ride,  and on.
P iedad---------Paid------------remove( ed) Pie, dad, dip, dap, dar, did, dead, pie, also on and on

Tropical Tramp

Bowman,

"in fact at this point i can prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer  by the looks of the evidence being found around them ..."

Can you tell us what is there that will "prove these locations are at lest early 1500's or earlyer..."?

cj 

it no longer matters at this point ... yesterday my brother (electrical engineer & and computer programer)  had a full blow heart attack,he says he will go even if the doctors say no .....i cant let that happen ... we all know the risk each time we go out in the field ... i dont know anyone that can do that job and i could come close but not and do everything else i need to do at the same time ...

and takeing two lesser trained people to try to do his job is out of question ...

untill i find away around this draw back the expedition 3 is on a undetermend holding pattern ...

the doctor said if we had pushed him and not let him rest, he would not be here right now .....

so if anyone in your groups says they need to rest, give them time and slow your pace down or they may take a lot longer rest than you think !


at this point, i have no idea how to get around this or even if there is a way around it ....

you guys take care and keep up the hunt ...

stay safe stay free

25 years eletrical tech and engneering with a back ground in computer lay out and design and programming .he had 7 or 8 diffrent jobs on the expedition ...its just hard to replace anyone with higher skills to just take off and go for a 26 day expedition ...

i hear ya , i am setting here drinking mike's hard lemonade.. tonight ... got the girlfriend a new wide screen monitor for her computer and some new ps2 games for the kid , so that should keep them out of my hair so i can have a drink tonight and do some  less thinking lol...

Do any of you guys give any credibility to Bob Brewer's book concerning the stones?  I personally haven't seen nor read any explanation other than his that was that well thought out.

Any comments?

Blindbowman sorry to hear about your brother - but glad that he survived it and hope he will be on the mend soon.  Don't worry about having to put off your expedition - no one has found it in all these years, so it is safe!  ;)  Besides, as Mrs Oro said, you can re-schedule a trip, but can't a life.

Oroblanco

Do any of you guys give any credibility to Bob Brewer's book concerning the stones?  I personally haven't seen nor read any explanation other than his that was that well thought out.

Any comments?

Since there is no closure on the topic, Brewer's ideas, like all other theories concerning the stones, are unproven at this time.  My guess is that there are some who know the true nature of the tablets but that all published information about is merely speculation.  It's a funny thing about treasure maps - you can force them to fit a number of locations if you try hard enough.

Springfield,

There is no need to "force" the Stone Tablets into any area.  Once you are on the right trail they flow in a natural and orderly path.

cj

some interesting info can be gained at St. Louis University in St.Louis Mo. the original Jesuit missionarys were  trained in north St.Louis MO. off Howderschell Rd. it had all the original beds,cooking facilitys,wood working tools and shop that these missionarys used in their training.......it had their original solid gold chalaces and candel holders....it was a real interseting tour, but what caught my eye was all the hand drawn maps from these missionarys tours. a lot of these were fron the s.west and also up into canda.Fr.DeSmidts grave,along with many others. this building/musem was closed and all of this equipment was moved to St.Louis University in down town St.Louis Mo. if your interested in the jesuits travels and the storys of the gold mines, youll be in for a treat touring this facility. the phone number of St.L.U museum of contemporary & religious art is (314)977-7170

Way to go - I'm glad to hear about your brother.


B

Ditto from Oroblanco! Good luck and good hunting buddy!

Randy,

I think he is singing your song here.  Isn't that the same story you just told me last week?

cj

BC,

There have been times here, when I have felt like this Forum was an extension of American Idol, and then someone like BlindBowMan or BC comes along and words like "Genius" and brilliance seem inadequate.

The written word is like a fine-edged sword.  It can powerfully cleave through the strongest body or caress the finest hair from the back of a child's arm.  We are all at the mercy of the warrior who carefully wields that sword.

I couldn't agree with you more.

cj

[it is true the Miguel Peralt was killed about 1848-1850 and they did beleave he was at the massacre site and got away]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Thank you for explaining your theory.  Some of your statements have got me confused.  I have a few questions remaining, and would appreciate if you could elaborate.  (If you would rather not, as we have discussed much of this in depth already, I will understand.)

Blindbowman wrote:

it is true the Miguel Peralt was killed about 1848-1850 and they did beleave he was at the massacre site and got away

Can you confirm that Miguel Peralta was killed in that time frame, in some sort of records or archives?  If the massacre took place in 1700-1703, how did Miguel get involved in the 1840s?

Blindbowman wrote:

the dutchman did in fact shoot miguel peralta and two others of his family but the mine was not a peralta mine

How can we prove, for a fact, that Jacob Waltz shot Miguel Peralta and two others of his family?

Blindbowman wrote:

thus the name don and the name pedro on the stones ..because of the simple fact the mans's full name was ( DON Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza )

If this is true, why did they not include the name Gonzales OR Mendoza on the stones?  This does not make sense to me.

Blindbowman wrote:

how dose it fit togather . Vaca finds the mine from the indains he passes the location & reports back to the jesuit chruch records from there kino goes and finds the mine telling his friends to help untill the indains massacre at tayopa , if i am right there is only one massacre around 1700-1703.... kino is almost killed and the loss of the mine ends up back in the hands of miguel peralta threw don pedro gonzalez de mendoza , threw the relationship of the two families . mendoza and the peralta , IMHO this is why no one saw the relationship because it was threw marriages between the families ....i read a peice of data that stated one of the gonzalez de mendoza had a wife that was a peralta ,,, so the story about Miguel peralta could very well be true .as the dutchman killing him and two others .....as well as the Ruth Gonzalez map .. being true

Okay several questions on this paragraph; first, have you read the available information from de Vaca?  Why would you conclude that de Vaca found the mine?  As you know from your history, de Vaca was the first European to successfully travel overland from Florida to Mexico, and his report is known as "La Relacion".  If you have the time and want to know more, it is available online at:

http://www.library.txstate.edu/swwc/cdv/
(Interesting stuff really!)

I could not find any mention in his report that sounds quite like something in the Superstitions, but perhaps you can point it out to me?  I would appreciate it.

Second, de Vaca published his "Relacion" in 1555, while father Kino we have already covered was active in Sonora (southern Arizona) 1687-1711, or over 100 years after de Vaca published his report, quite a span of time.  Why did you conclude that de Vaca reported his find(s) to the Jesuits, and no one would have bothered to go investigate for over 100 years?  We are pretty sure that Coronado, whose expedition was at least partially due to the report of deVaca, did not venture into the Superstitions, so he is 'out' for this question.

Next question,

<reminder, from above paragraph, from Blindbowman>if i am right there is only one massacre around 1700-1703.... kino is almost killed and the loss of the mine ends up back in the hands of miguel peralta threw don pedro gonzalez de mendoza , threw the relationship of the two families . mendoza and the peralta

Why did you conclude the massacre occurred in that time-frame, 1700-1703? 

Why would you say that father Kino was "almost killed"?  (There is a great deal of information on father Kino available online) 

Why does it "have" to be father Kino, if any Jesuits at all? 

I fail to see how the mine ownership then passes from Kino to Peralta.  The Jesuits activities in mining had to be in secret as it was against the law for them to be involved at all, and it is hard to imagine the church turning over ownership of such a profitable property as a rich gold mine to a lay person.

I won't repeat the question (posted above) but have you found some sort of record that proves Jacob Waltz killed Peraltas?

Blindbowman wrote:

" Kino did make the Peralta _Ruth map , Don Perdo Gonzalez de Mendoza made the stones ..." and Miguel peralta could have been shot by the dutchman !

Father Kino was indeed a map-maker, - why did you now conclude that it had to be father Kino that made the Peralta-Ruth map?

Mendoza made the stone maps?  Why did you conclude that it was the hand of Mendoza, when (at least as far as I could find), he never ventured into the Superstitions?

Miguel Peralta "could" have been shot by Waltz?   ("Could" is a different statement from "fact") The time-line is a problem again.  If Miguel Peralta was shot and killed in 1848-1850, we can safely RULE OUT Jacob Waltz as the killer, since we fairly well know his whereabouts at that time - here is an extract,

Waltz filed his letter of intent to become a citizen of the United States on November 12, 1848, in the Adams County Courthouse in Natchez, Mississippi. Waltz soon made plans to travel west to the goldfields of California.

Jacob Waltz arrived in California about 1850. His name appears on several California census records. He prospected and worked as a miner in the mother lode country of California for eleven years. It was on July 19, 1861, in the Los Angeles County Courthouse, Jacob Waltz became a naturalized citizen of the United States of America. Waltz worked as a miner on the San Gabriel River for a man named Ruben Blakney. It was probably here he met Elisha M. Reavis, later to become the "Hermit of Superstition Mountain."

Waltz departed California in 1863, with the Peeples-Weaver Party or a similar group of prospectors headed for the Bradshaw Mountains of Arizona Territory. Waltz was one of the earliest pioneer prospectors in the Bradshaw Mountain area. Waltz's name appears on the Gross Claim which was filed in Prescott, Arizona Territory on September 21, 1863. His name also appears on a special territorial census taken in 1864.

On this census Waltz is listed as a miner, 54 years of age, and a native of Germany. Waltz's name also appeared on a petition to territorial governor John N. Goodwin soliciting a militia to control the predatory raids of hostile Indians in the Bradshaw Mountains. Jacob Waltz's name also appeared on the Big Rebel and the General Grant claims in the Bradshaw Mountains. Waltz was very active in the Bradshaw Mountain area between 1863-67.

Jacob Waltz moved to the Salt River Valley in 1868 and filed a homestead claim on 160 acres of land on the north bank of the Salt River. It is from here Waltz began his exploratory trips into the mountains surrounding the Salt River Valley. If Waltz had a rich gold mine or cache he had to have discovered it on one of these prospecting forays. Old timers claim Waltz prospected every winter between 1868-1886. Waltz died in Phoenix, Arizona Territory on October 25, 1891, in the home of Julia Thomas.

(from http://www.superstitionmountainmuseum.org/LostDutchmanExhibit.htm)
(Note, Bradshaw mountains are some distance from the Superstition range)

I think you can see the problem - Waltz was not IN Arizona until 1863, or at least 13 years after Miguel had been shot and killed, if we can prove that one Miguel Peralta was in fact murdered in that time period, Waltz was definitely NOT the killer.

I would make a suggestion, since you have to put off the expedition for a time anyway - it might be helpful to draw up a chart with a time-line on it, (like we see in some history books), and mark on it the time periods when deVaca was passing through Arizona, when father Kino was exploring, when the Peraltas are alleged to have been active (I have never found any absolute proof to support the Peralta legends) as well as the time frame when Jacob Waltz was active in the region.  For myself, the time-line problems are quite an obstacle in your theory, but if it makes sense to you, that is really all that matters - that is, of course until the final proof is found and recovered.  Then any remaining questions can be put to rest absolutely. 

With over 100 years having passed since Waltz passed away and with so many hunters for the treasure(s), it is unlikely for someone to come up with a completely new theory, but I think Blindbowman has managed to do so at least in some parts. 

Good luck and good hunting to you, (and to everyone here) and thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

BlindBowMan,

I have a number of sources which detail the life of Father Kino.


"...because one of the Medonza when to school with cabeza de vaca in jesuit collage of Parma . sorry Kino did not go to Parma  . his real name did . Eusebio Francisco Chini (KINO) ....he changed his name ....ya that threw me off too !"

Can you tell us the source for this information?

As far as I know, Father Kino's education took place in Germany.  Having read the early history of Cabeza de Vaca, I don't remember anything about him attending a Jesuit College.  He was a soldier.

Any help you can provide in pointing me in the right direction for this historical information would be appreciated.

cj

Thank you Blindbowman for explaining further.  Chasing down legends is always difficult business, and when the legends are in the Superstitions they take on a life of their own!  I think it is "crazy" for a person NOT to pursue their dreams.  Of course that may help explain why I am not wealthy!     Good luck and good hunting to you,

Oroblanco

"Thank you Blindbowman for explaining further.  Chasing down legends is always difficult business, and when the legends are in the Superstitions they take on a life of their own!  I think it is "crazy" for a person NOT to pursue their dreams.  Of course that may help explain why I am not wealthy!     Good luck and good hunting to you,

Oroblanco"

Oro: Don't you get it?  It's all been a joke ... a computer game of sorts.  (1) Post the most ridiculous pipedream analysis as reality and then, 2) sit back and wait for a series of rebuttals from the rational seekers.  My hat's off to him ... he's kept the ball rolling for a couple months here. 

Springfield,

I suppose you will next be telling us there is no Santa Clause.

cj

BC,

One of the lessons from American Idol, is that it is sometimes best to tell people they can't carry a tune.  Otherwise they end up on national TV making a fool of themselves and getting their hearts broken.  Many of them have no idea how bad their singing really is.

Now it may be true, as Springfield says, that BlindBowMan is just having a good time here.  On the other hand, it's possible he believes everything he says.  I have known a number of folks who's theories are just as far off the beaten path as his.  It's goes with the title of Dutch Hunter....more often than not.

Of course, none of that applies to me......, and I am not so sure about you. ;)

cj

[=mrs.oroblanco
Where is Jose when I need him.B
***************

Right here Love;  (hush oro)

My wife's name is  Berta Olivas Curry

Her single and legal name is Berta Olivas Valdez,  Olivas is her fathers name, Valdez is her mothers side, Grandfather.

This is what we registered the mining  claims with.

Tropical Tramp

=the blindbowman
...
thats the funny thing here all mexicans look alike lol ..
***************

Nah, no way meet mi wife 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


 Tropical Tramp


..






[/quote]

Bowman,

I don't know how much time you have actually spent in the Superstitions, but I can assure you that there are hundreds of old mines, some of value, and a number of worthless holes in the ground.  Only time will tell what you have.

cj

[there is no Santa Clause]

there is no Santa Clause

WHAT!!??!!    What is next, I suppose you are going to tell me there is no Easter Bunny???

Ah, organization - something I really, really need to get done in my own 'archives' - of course they all started out being "organized" but since then, moving, jumbling etc now..... it is a "treasure hunt" to find anything in there.  Oh well at least bookworms haven't eaten it all up...yet!  (Did you know there is a type of worm that eats paper in books?  I found a book with them in it once at an auction - had worm-holes all though the book which otherwise might have been worth something.) Some fine day, I will get the courage up (and ambition) to get it done.

Oroblanco

[if any]

Bowman,

Your historical "facts" have nothing to do with whatever you may have found in the Superstitions.  Most of them have little to do with history.

The problem here, is that most of what you say, of a historical nature, is so abysmally false, that anyone who knows the history of the era, has to believe you are just playing a game.  No one who has read as much as Mrs. Oroblanco correctly noticed you have, could be so wrong....so often, by accident.

If you are serious, the best thing you could do would be to not spend a ton of money, but go in and just take a close look at what you have found.

Four or five "sites", in close proximity, in the Superstitions would not go unnoticed .  If you are over in the Iron Mt. area, there are many mines (silver) all clustered fairly closely together.  There are the ruins of stone houses in the area.  There are few, if any, multiple sites in the Superstitions that have not been known for many, many years.

By posting on a public forum, such as this, you open up everything you say to unsolicited comments and critique.  I will probably receive my share for this post.  That's all part of "going public".  If you don't want that kind of heat, don't go on American Idol singing like Tiny Tim.

cj

Sometimes I cannot tell when someone is just pulling my leg online, and I think Blindbowman has fooled me more than once!  ;)  I think Cactusjumper's recommendation is a good one Blindbowman, it has the advantages of not risking a large amount of money until you KNOW what you have found.  It doesn't cost much to just go in and poke around a bit more, might turn up absolute, conclusive evidence that clearly would justify spending your capital to recover a treasure, or at worst have a great time in some of God's country. 

Good luck and good hunting to you (even Wabbits heh heh hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Bowman,

"ok i guess your right, i should not post anything till i have the permits and my clams are legal ..."

No one has suggested that you not post.  What would we talk about?   Illegal "clams" are not something to kid about.

If you are using the same disjointed, rambling story that you are pitching here, to justify a Treasure Trove Permit, you will be waiting a very long time.  Are you a young man?

cj

you keep telling your self that ...



 

Randy,

Are you saying you don't know the answers to those questions.....yet?

cj

Randy,

"See my trouble is that it's been proven time and time again that dutch hunters like to throw other dutch hunters off the path, and use IMMENSELY elaborate hoaxes/trickery to achieve this goal."

For someone as trusting as you have been, it's troubling to see you turn this corner.  More so, because of the high caliber and trustworthiness of some of the people you have met and who have taken you under their wing.....so to speak.

The Dutch Hunting Community has people at each end of the spectrum and all shades in between.  From what I have seen, you have been exposed to the worst and the best.  While you had your doubts, you came to realize that some of the warnings that were coming your way were valid.

In the meantime, you are keeping the lines of communication and familiarity open to the good and the bad folks.  You know the difference, but there is always the chance you will learn something new, no matter the character of the source.  There are many people who do the same thing.

At some point in your search, and life, you will have to decide if it has all been worth the price.  Hopefully the good people will still be with you.  Many will have judged you by the company you keep.  Many a friendship has been ruined by someone trying to straddle the fence.

Take care,

Joe

...As with God and the LDM, it comes down to faith...

Ahh ... the fatal flaw ...

Randy,

No one said anything about liking or disliking someone.  You can like someone and if they leave you in the desert without a ride, it's no real problem.  On the other hand, if they leave your ass hanging off the side of a cliff so as not to put their own ass in danger, it's something else altogether.

It really boils down to who you place your trust in.  You make that judgement by what you have seen, not by what anyone tells you.....that includes me.  If you think this is a "clique" thing, you have not really been paying attention to what brought it all about.

I am out of line here, so this will be my last post on this subject.  You know I only wish you well.

Joe

"so  i was crazy ?

I would say the same thing I said when you said you found the LDM, "Prove It!"

Why would you say you found anything, before you excavated it, and had proof? See. when you SAY that you have found something, it goes back to the old addage: "Incredible claims require credible proof!" Why brag about finding something that you have yet to realize a cent from? It harms you in a number of ways:

1. Without having excavated the mine, and found proof that it is the one you say it is, who will believe you? You have no track record of finding lost mines or caches for anybody to take your word for it. If Mike Pickett, Tiger Kenworthy, or someone of that ilk said they found a lost mine, I would more easily think they had something (because they have a proven track record).

2. You are alerting several Federal Agencies whom I guarantee monitor this and every other THing website and forum.

3. You are alerting less than honest people who are trolling this and every other THing website and forum, who will jump on your site and poach anything that might have been there (just ask Marc Austin the Administrator. It happened to him).

I've been at this a while, and it always seems that the guys who REALLY find the good stuff, are very tight lipped (at keast they are tight lipped until they have profited all they are going to from their find).

Best of luck,

Mike

Bowman,

I may have missed the post, but so far you are the only one (I know of) who has ever mentioned "crazy" in relationship to yourself.

Mike,

Glad to see you are still alive.  Rumor had it that some woman had kicked you to death.

cj

I'm with CJ here. I never said you were crazy. Overly enthusiastic ABSOLUTELY! Maybe not crazy.

Best,

Mike

Jumping the gun, and making claims without credible evidence to back them up? Absolutely! Not crazy.

M

Wanting to believe that something you saw from an airplane was something it wasn't? Yep! Not crazy.

M

Just like my ex-girlfriend! Went from one extreme to the other. There was no middle!

You can post a lot of things. All posts are appreciated. It's just that if you want to be taken seriously, you need to have some credible proof of what you claim. If you THINK you have found something, then by all means share what you will, just keep in mind that others are looking at this too ( good and bad others).

See, it's possible to show proof of finding something without revealing it's location to everybody else! Most any major Spanish Mine will have the name of the mine engraved in a capstone at it's entrance. There will be old Spanish mining implements, arrastras, smelters, ash pits, mine tailings piles (sometimes those were hidden), petroglyphs, monuments, markers, etc. You can Photoshop out ridgelines, and backgrounds to disguise the location (just don't try and Photoshop proof, because I WILL catch it).

There's lots you can do to keep your finds for yourself, and still share your proof. You just need some proof to be taken seriously when you make incredible claims like, "I FOUND THE LDM AND TAYOPA MINES!" Just saying it don't make it so.

Best,

Mike

[your own claim]

This discussion has covered many points - for instance, I have only met a dozen or so prospectors/treasure hunters that I did not like, and when they are pointing guns at you trying to drive you off your own claim it is easy to dislike someone like that.  We all have different ideas and different theories we are chasing down, sometimes these fellows who deliberately mis-lead a fellow treasure hunter are doing so as a sort of prank, (like a snipe-hunt) not necessarily to be "mean". 

Blindbowman, I did not notice anyone call you "crazy" - in fact the only times I have ever heard someone refer to a treasure hunter as "crazy" was when a NON-treasure-hunter is trying to insult, denigrate and ridicule someone who DOES go out in search for treasure - you know, that old attitude of "anyone who hunts for treasure is crazy (and greedy) because there is no such thing".   (I think some of these fellows are actually jealous of us treasure hunters too!)  I hope you will choose to continue the discussion - whether we can agree on ideas and theories is unlikely (try and find three people who search for the Lost Dutchman that can agree on where it is located!) but the discussion brings up many interesting points and leads to further research.  In my opinion, it is "crazy" for anyone NOT to follow their dreams.  Life is just too short for that.

Even when a site proves to be nothing, or a clue or lead proves to be a fraud or a pack of lies - remember as a wise king once said, "We learn from the false as well as from the true."  (Solomon)  Ruling out a site is making progress, every bit as much as finding a clue is true.

Good luck and good hunting, hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Oroblanco,

"Even when a site proves to be nothing, or a clue or lead proves to be a fraud or a pack of lies - remember as a wise king once said, "We learn from the false as well as from the true."  (Solomon)  Ruling out a site is making progress, every bit as much as finding a clue is true."

That's a very true statement.  Many treasure hunters, those who have been at it for awhile, can tell you hundreds of places where it isn't.

cj

Bowman,

  WOW! 

Now that's impressive.

cj

Bowman,

  WOW! 

Now that's impressive.

cj

   

you saw those rocks lol?

Bowman,

You are probably heading for some serious trouble.

Your "site" is undoubtedly a protected archaeological site.  What you have described is likely a Salado settlement.
The large stone over the doorway is typical construction and probably had a small number of oak sticks layered beneath it at one time.  There are a number of these location scattered throughout the Superstitions.

There are people assigned to "watch" these sites.  You would be well advised to stay away from those "buildings".  Many petroglyphs will be found around the site.

The only question now, is which site have you stumbled upon.  You have supplied more than enough information for an "informed" person to know.

Take care,

cj

Oh... Hi Randy and freinds.

Good to see you all having such a good time.

Hey were you just talking about me?

thanx!


WW

Did you move to Apache Junction or something?

Hey Randy,

Where did you get that msg? I don't see it anywhere. Is WW planning to play nice now?

Best,

Mike

Mike,

One of his posts was done like BlindBowMan on drugs.  At the end, there was this:

[" have i lost my way ? or am i just a being of lost ways ? "
© the blindbowman ,2007]

B,

Looks like no one is going to answer, so......Yes.

cj