The Peralta Stones

I missed them. I guess Jeff or Marc saw them, and gave him the boot.

Oh well,

Best,

Mike

i will tell scott wood about the stone wall site  ,it was not one of my 5 sites yet interesting never the less ... let him deal with it ...  i got better things to spend my money & time  on,  i am ending my reseach ..and finding a new hobby ... ...

i was going to post my research but i dont want to misleed anyone ... , good luck ..

[=the blindbowman   i am ending my reseach ..and finding a new hobby ..

**************

GALS??

Tropical Tramp. ...

Bowman ; this is my motto, use it!  it works.   
Tropical tramp

Jose , clean out your pm inbox ;)
Blindbowman......... I have said this my whole life..........
Winners never quit and quitters never win ;)
Best ,
MB

Like my favorite line from the movie "The Rock"; Sean Connery: "Losers whine about doing their best, while the winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"

Need we say more?

Best,

Mike

Like my favorite line from the movie "The Rock"; Sean Connery: "Losers whine about doing their best, while the winners go home and f*** the prom queen!"

Need we say more?

Best,

Mike

my girlfriend was the prom queen ....lol

i know its there .. i even know where ...i beleave i have enough time left to get to it .. i am still loseing my vission slowly in a few yaers i will be totally blind again ....

you know why i dont correct my spelling because i would have to take off my computer glasses and put on my boi folkles just to read the dictionary and than put my computer glasses back on to see the screen to correct each word ......i cant see my key board any more  i just  know where the keys are ....

ya thats what your not seeing , i am legally blind now with out my glasses on ...i cant make out a stop sign from 10ft away . i have had over 400 doctor eye appantments in the last 5 years , 3 MRI 's ...

good luck



 

Bowman,

I don't see where any of that disqualifies you from searching for the LDM.  Might even improve your chances.

Good luck and good hunting,

cj

Randy,

You may want to check out my post concerning Calalus, on the LDM Forum.

cj

misleeding other is as fun as hunting for it ! lol

 ;)    s5200 fuji  for a new back up camera , dosent sound like i am done yet . but maybe you know all of us dutch hunters are crazy lol ...

besides that . untell i figer out who put this coin on top of the nephews rock , the hunt goes on .. someone did know where to hunt . i dont beleave they found it ,. but they were in the right area . AU /EF 1897 ....

=djui5 ]
Nice coin! Was it just laying on top of a rock?
**************

YOU missed that  Djui?  sheeehs  where do you hunt?  I already have told you  where to dig, forgive me if I don't jin you in the dig    hehehehe.   

I presume that bowman had fun cleaning it up? It must have been well oxidized and hard to  see..

Tropical Tramp

=djui
verywhere but there! It's funny, as for the West end of the range, I've been into most of the area, but the area on BB's map I've never been to. I've been around it, but never into the area.

******************

Djui I was only semi serous, don't make a trip because of me, go to  bowmans's if you wish, but don't spend any money on the map that I posted.  It was a spur of the moment feeling, I am not that psychic I believe.   Apology. my  friend.

Tropical Tramp

...

MesaBuddy [ >

   (Jose, clean out your pm inbox ;)

Done Mesa buddy

Tropical Tramp

Blindbowman wrote:

misleeding other is as fun as hunting for it ! lol

Fun but just a little bit mean.  I can not say that I have never done it, only ONCE however and that was done because of several folks who spent days "observing" Mrs Oro and I doing some prospecting in the Rabbithole district (Nevada).  They were less than a half mile away, and were literally watching our every move with binoculars.  We were not finding diddly for gold anyway, and I had found a bowling ball and bag in the middle of nowhere a couple of weeks earlier.  You guessed it.  I made sure they were watching me, and I "acted furtive" while I took the bowling ball bag out, pretending it was a real treasure or drugs etc.  We had a trench dug for sampling that was quite deep (just a bit more than six feet, trying to find bedrock) so I made a big show out of carefully hiding that old bowling ball and bag in the hole, filled in the trench (had to do that anyway) and then paced off to a boulder and took compass bearings off a mountain (not really, just faking it for my audience) while Mrs Oro held a shotgun and "stood guard".  We then packed up camp and "fled" - I know that was kind of nasty to do but those danged nosey jerks were really getting on my nerves, couldn't even take a whiz without them observing.  If they had been actually doing some prospecting themselves, anything other than spending all day and half the night just watching our every move, I might not have pulled this prank.  The jerks could hardly wait til we were "out of sight" to run down to our camp and start digging!  (hee hee) I can just picture the look on their three faces (two guys and at least one gal), when they found the bag, and felt the heavy weight  of it, how their pulse must have raced, only to have found an old, heavy bowling ball!  ;)  Maybe they should have spent more time actually using their dry washer and pans instead of "spying" on old Oroblanco, Mrs Oro and a dog.

However that is not something I would ever care to make a habit of, and have never done since; as I can just imagine how I would feel if something like this were pulled on me.   

Nice backup camera Blindbowman - and a nice coin too!  If I were you, I would put the dollar in some kind of wrapper (to protect it from wear, stains etc) and stick it in a pocket in your wallet.  It has to be a "lucky" dollar, considering where you found it; plus it is "good luck" to carry a silver dollar (or a five-dollar gold piece, if one can afford that) - if ever you are broke, stuck, broke-down vehicle etc you can always use that dollar as a dollar or just sell it, sort of an "emergency" reserve of money should the need ever arise.  Besides it is always less painful to sell a coin in an emergency than to have to sell your gun to get your pickup fixed. 

Oroblanco

yes,  it did take  a few hour to clean .  i have redirrected  my search area 4 or 5 times sence than , but that was not the only coin found there .near the nephew site ....

Greetings Blindbowman,

I presume that you refer to the "Nephew site" by that name, for the sake of having a name to call it - and not based on the finding of the bones that proved not to be human, right?  The date on the dollar pretty well rules out a direct link to Waltz or a nephew, since he died in 1891 and the dollar coin mint date is 1897.  Who might have placed it there, and why?

Oroblanco

oro . yes the nephew site is where i found the shelving rock grave site . we are not sure if any human remains are there or not at this point . i have had two conflecting reports about it ... ....

and yes the date is after the dutchmans death and could have been put there much later than the date and maybe it could have been put there by anuyone  , but why not leave your name to mark a spot .. dose nt make much sense yet ..

thats the fun thing about missleeding . you dont know if you are or not at anyone given point ...

to come on the web and show everyone where you are going  is not very logical now is it ?

i would use that ball joke but it takes to much to get the balls  lol ...

Djui5..

thats a level 9 climb ...thats all i will say about it .. i saw nothing above a level two on the known hikeing trails ...

Bowman:  You have stated that you were blind once but came back and now you are going blind again.

You stated that after many tests and medical examinations nothing physical could be found.

If this is correct, then you have a mentally caused condition.  Many people have lost their sight this way  due entirely to a psychological /. physiological reaction.     This problem can exist simply as a way to escape a problem or possibly to punish oneself for a real or imagined reason/act.

 It has  been known to exist to escape the results of a planned  move, eliminating the possibility of having to face a direct failure.

Remember the brain is the final sensor in seeing by interpreting  all visual signals / stimulus from the eyes.It  can chose to accept these signals or simply ignorer them.

A very simple but extremely effective tool to remedy this, if this is the primary cause,  is to go to a competent medical Hypnotist./ Doctor  You have nothing to lose and every thing to gain.

I  personally have seen this create miracles.

Tropical Tramp.

Blindbowman - that site may be even more complex and strange than we imagine - remember how many people have hunted those hills, and how many have died.  It may or may not be the nephew, or might be something completely different yet no less interesting.  Any theories as to who or whom might have placed the coin?  A tougher question is WHY?  A simple case of someone dropping a coin seems not likely, unless the area is all rock and if that were the case the person would have heard the coin hit the rocks - you know that nice "ring" that silver (and gold) does when struck, so would have known to look for it.  The animal bones could point to an ancient Indian site...! 

Tropical Tramp, an interesting idea about the hypnotherapist.  The original injury was from a bow breaking right?  Could it be scar tissue growing and putting pressure on the optic nerve?  I am sure no doctor, but your eyesight is important and worth extra efforts and checking all avenues for help including a hypnotherapist.

Oroblanco

Bowman,

"thats a level 9 climb"

Can you tell us what made you rate it a "level 9 climb"?  Is that your own rating system, or one of the accepted systems used in mountaineering?  If it's the later, which one?

Thanks,

cj

Bowman,

Was that question out of line?

I have been in Search and Rescue for many years and have had training in Technical Rope Rescue.  Mountaineering terms are pretty familiar to me.

Having been in most of the "rough" terrain in the Superstitions over the years, I have not seen anything that would reach the most difficult ratings.  Is it your contention that Waltz and or the Jesuits needed technical rope climbing abilities to reach your location?

Thanks,

cj

[=Oroblanco

Tropical Tramp, an interesting idea about the hypnotherapist.  The original injury was from a bow breaking right?  Could it be scar tissue growing and putting pressure on the optic nerve?  I am sure no doctor, but your eyesight is important and worth extra efforts and checking all avenues for help including a hypnotherapist.
*****************

I agree Oro, but if it is the result of a physical result/cause  such as you mentioned, one the many tests and examinations would have shown it up.   MRI's are just for that.

As I started to post in the dowsing room, I have done a lot of paranormal experimenting, among which was the eye/ mind relationship and it's barrier line  control by suggestion  -  i.e self hypnosis, or straight hypnosis.  Suggestion can play an extremely  powerful effect both for good and bad.

I may get back to it when I finally finish the business with the 'Escondida mine'.

Apology to the room for a minor deviation on the thread, but it just might allow him to contnue on the LDM  quest, as well as living a full life...

Tropical Tramp

"thats a level 9 climb"

Hmm - that actually may help to pinpoint Blindbowman's location, or one of them at least!  Is the term from rock climbing/ice climbing?  Just curious.  Don't worry BB - I sure don't know exactly where your sites are, other than "in the Superstitions" which as we know is a pretty large area.  The sites are safe from me at least.   ;) (Plus I live too far away to simply pop in there any old time.)

Tropical Tramp - hola mi amigo - Blindbowman had mentioned in an earlier post that he had been blinded by a bow snapping into pieces some years ago which left him blind for some time.  That was why I assumed it had to be a direct injury.  I am sure no expert in anatomy/physiology, and it is not too accurate to compare an animal to human, but my old prospecting dog had an accident which resulted in scar tissue growing around one optic nerve, blinding him in one eye which could not be corrected by surgery.  However psychological causes are every bit as devastating and require expert assistance in treatment, such as hypnotherapy.  Your suggestion is certainly worthy of checking into - if it were ME - I would consider every possible route to avoid losing my eyesight, as blindness is a very difficult condition to live with.  I hope friend Blindbowman will pursue every avenue to save his eyesight.

Oroblanco

Bowman:  You have stated that you were blind once but came back and now you are going blind again.

You stated that after many tests and medical examinations nothing physical could be found.

If this is correct, then you have a mentally caused condition.  Many people have lost their sight this way  due entirely to a psychological /. physiological reaction.     This problem can exist simply as a way to escape a problem or possibly to punish oneself for a real or imagined reason/act.

 It has  been known to exist to escape the results of a planned  move, eliminating the possibility of having to face a direct failure.

Remember the brain is the final sensor in seeing by interpreting  all visual signals / stimulus from the eyes.It  can chose to accept these signals or simply ignorer them.

A very simple but extremely effective tool to remedy this, if this is the primary cause,  is to go to a competent medical Hypnotist./ Doctor  You have nothing to lose and every thing to gain.

I  personally have seen this create miracles.

Tropical Tramp.

micro nerve damge to both front templeral regions of the brain ( nerve damge to the cirebril cortex ).....  its like the base ball player that gets hit in the temple and goes blind ...i am happy to be alife ... i had bleeding inside of my left eye , light bleeding & swelling of  the brain,at 17 grams the peice of the arrow rest struck me flat on the left temple . a walt and a little red mark , i was stuned and in shock and had a real bad head ache that nght the next morning i was blind and my brain was swelling . i didnt wake up for 3 days ...they put patches over my eyes 3 months , i was totally blind ,they told my wife if i did not awake with in 3 days they would drill holes to releave the pressure if i didnt die i had a chance ...no insurece company will cover ,expoloratory micro brain surjury ...with a less than 5% rate of cureing the injury ...no i am going blind slowly and i could last a few years ether way sight wise ... as lonng as the head aches are gone i am OK ...thats level 9 with out ropes . level 9 with ropes  or (9R) is over hanging and bridgeing  or cavern dark work . desending or asending  .....yes , i was a climber...   the reason i did not answer you was not because i didnt want to, it was because i couldnt . we got a bad computer virus  worm going threw the web right now up here ...it started jan 7th and almost had to formatt the hard drive .... we had the up to date full norton antivirus . it didnt even slow it down ..i wanted to make sure it could not be past on to anyone else .. it was a real pain in the A ...               

HI  How long ago did this injury happen?

Tropical Tramp

1999  august 10th 4;30 in the after noon after my son got home we were going to shot some . its one thing to face be injured like this , it was far worse haveing my son there beside when it happend ...it took me 3 years for them to get me stable . everything they did had uncontrolable effects . from one med to another at one point they would have me on sleeping pills for a month at a time i would wake up just long enough to wake up and than back to sleep before the skull pain would start again .i did that for about 6 months the skull pain was so bad i would let my family sleep why i would get up and put my head under cold running water for hours ... ...dont ask what a man finds out about him self liveing threw something like that .....the list is to long to type ....

about 7 months past and i was setting in my lliveing room and my sight came back about 80% of the way , i went blalistic called all my family , the next morning i watch my son walk out the door to go to school a few mintues after as he walked up the drive way my vission faded again , i lost it , i lost it bad , i walked up and down the road screaming To GOD , i was almost hit by truck , i cryed so long i forgot what i was crying about ...you have never faced anything till you face the fact God may turn his back on you ! i never gave up i know he is real and he had his reasons . to teach me what can only be learnd in this way ...

3 years after i went out side in the winter for the frist time and found that if the temp was below 20degrees that is would suber cool the blood in my templeand my vission would come back about 65 %  as long as i stayed out side ....i allmost froze to death that winter . i remember seeing my wifes face for the frist time in a little over 3 years .. i can talk about this and what happend ......you get the idea what makes a man like me who i am ... to hard core to give up , and i carrie the love of my family and love ones in my heart and my will is all mine ... i know GOD and i know God is real ....who else could do this to another being  and watch .....

i remember one thing learnd above all else  ,how i felt when  my wife found me in the front yard at 5;30 in the morning on thanksgivening day on my hands and knees trying to find   a shot gun shell i had droped , blind and in skull pain some bad there is no words for this kind of torture,,

sshe took the shot gun back in the house and i would not go back in till i found the shell . it took hours ...

if anyone of you think for secound that i will walk away with out finding what i am looking for  .. you are out right misteaken ...my sense & will power goes far beyond my sight ....

"God dose not make us human we do ..."

its all good now . i dont care what others think about me anymore .. i learn that the hard way . one day i went to my brothers for morning coffie . we had a close family and always had saterday morning coffie . so i thaught it was time to get out and try to be normal again even if i was blind ,  i got there and after a few mintues my eyes started to bleed , the blood ran down my face and my mother ask if i was alright , had i cut my self with my glasses .i said no and remove the glasses to wipe away the blood running out of my eyes . my mother got up from the table and said ho my god i cant watch this . than my brothers kids ran in the other room and were crying & scared of me , than my brother ask me to leave because i was scareing the kids by crying blood ... you people will never know me or what it is to be the blindbowman . i dont just call my self the blindbowman, i am  the blindbowman  with respect .. i always will be ...

one more expedition ..i found it   ..i will prove it

sorry about your problems some of us has less or more , just read too much into this form i thought you were going to prove the the stones real but as i seen it it's all up in the air . no prove no pudding

HI Bowman  I am not a doctor.  I am in the position of  say an aircraft / automotive  engine mech, who can visually / mentally diagnose almost any particular problem with an engine without knowing the metallurgical characteristics etc of the materiel's involved.  In light of this I suggest that you consider the following.

A)   Apparently the Medical personnel have not found the source of your problem in 7+ years in spite of many, many tests by very competent persons.

B)    From what you have posted, your problem is inconsistent in having brief periods of sight returned.
***********
Referring to (A), none of the  tests / examinations  etc. show anything unusual. So theoretically, we can rule out a physical reason for your problem. - barring blood or fluid pressure.  

The  upper right limb of your bow striking  you in the left Temporal region would carry quite a bit of kinetic energy, enough for local damage, but not enough to effect the Brain in general since it wasn't of the type and magnitude of a slower heavier impact, such as a fist or club.. While it could have caused extensive local damage, you have not mentioned anything about any fractures or concussions, only severe pain..   So the likely hood of it effecting both optical nerves is slight.  Furthermore you have had intemittent sight since, including now.  This would tend to eliminate scar tissue involvement also, unless the medical personnel removed it.

So we are back to Fluid pressure.  What has your blood pressure  been on an average, especially when you have these pain attacks and loss of vision?  The bleeding from the eyes is interesting along with the cold apparently effecting your vision.  Normally when one is subjected to extreme cold, the body literally retires the blood from the superficial areas, skin, etc.,  in order to protect the critical areas such as internal organs and brain. So there could be a lower pressure in the eye,, but?  At the moment I would tend to rule out Macular Degeneration since a normal examination would have shown this up, plus it is a steadily degenerating condition, no momentary periods of increased vision..

So I am back to the point of auto-suggestion, being triggered by any of many things.  There are many people living that have a permanent blindness or other physiological / psychological problems that can, and have been eliminated by competent Psychotherapists.  While these problems are basically mentally induced, they are just as much physical as any other cause in their effects.

So I again reccomend that you talk to your doctor about his recommendation for a quality Med certified Hypnotist. If he is not open to talks, and many are still behind in this procedure, ask another, or even better, ask a MED. Certified  Hypnotist if she / he  believes that they could be of any benefit. check your local telephone book or call your Hospital. for referrals.

In my past experiments I have found that I can easily control fluid pressure, yes blood pressure and heart beat also,  as well as pain, discomfort, anxiety, or even bad habits.

I probably can even eliminate the horribly addictive Internet vice, hehhee/ ,.

Tropical Tramp

p.s. apology.to the room for a temp. change in the thread,  but it just may keep our bowguy with us and to allow him to finish up his search.

p.p.s  You never have stated if your sight just goes black or opaque? Important.

=DEMON
sorry about your problems some of us has less or more , just read too much into this form i thought you were going to prove the the stones real but as i seen it it's all up in the air . no prove no pudding
*********
Remember the Hare and the Tortise,   the race isn't over yet my friend  Deacon.

Tropical Tramp

[advantage]

Well Blindbowman, you know there is an odd saying "Irony is the rule" (pretty strange if you think about it, so many incidents are full of ironies) so....how "ironic" would it be, for after so many thousands of people had searched for the Lost Dutchman mine and failed, for a BLIND MAN to finally find it!  Hmm?  Ironic enough for you?  You may have a strange advantage Blindbowman, for the "irony" rule at least!

Oroblanco

HI bowman: I now know much more about your condition, thanks, I was going fairly "excuse the expression" blindly.  However you can definitely eliminate any pain and drop the use of the present pain control drug. through this treatment.

As for the shock wave, yes, it could exist under unusual circumstances.  This could stretch the endings / nerves sufficiently.  But nerves have been known to regenerate or repair themselves.  I personally can testify to this.  When they cut about out about 1/2 of my left front thigh muscles, they also cut many nerves.  Over time the nerve system has been repairing itself.  It is almost normal again. I can now walk almost normally again.  Self hynosis played an important part in ths.

As for your above normal seeing in the dark, yes, that is easily explainable,  but not in this thread/room.

I suggest pm'ing or opening another thread which all can go to if interested.

Tropical Tramp

bb sorry about your brain and eyes but back to the mine , gold and silver won't do me any good up in canada , from the begining of this you stated you found it , ok where or what did you find , just like to know , pic work too

..it takes time to recover data from photos ....we are still finding hiden things in the photos

to find anything and not get high quality photos is  poor evidence  ,  thats why expedition 3 is a full out photo expedition .about 30% of all photos taken are useable research data.only about 10% are real quality evidence ,... do the math ..expedition 3  is out right  over kill ! .its being planed for december 1st of 2007 , to even think of takeing 12,000 quality photos is beyond planing ...

i have read and reread the manuals for the equipment and i am in training to teach my self and others how to use the equipment in those conditions , what have i found ? a real good reason to go back and finish what i started ...the right way with the right equipment and training ...wisdom can be a far greater tool than all the TNT you could carrie ,lol ...

i found part of my equipment is (out of stock)  and i have to relocate those missing peice .. so even if you think you got everything in order ,you still can not plan on the unexspected .. as is the case with this legend and the conditions in the mts .....

[1848]

I have been reading this with great interest & extreme curiousity 
There is a lot to be read so I am sure I have missed more then I realize. . .still I have a few questions, if they have been address already I apologize. . I am not trying to be repeative or start arguements, just trying to get a better idea for myself. . .

My questions:

* Has anyone translated the words written on the stones? What was the result? Is the language Spanish, Portuguese, a mix or ?? ? 


* I have seen mentioned a time or two the mispelling of the word "Coazon". . . is there a possibilty that was the way the individual(s) who wrote it "heard" the word? I am just thinking of Ellis Island & when individuals came over many many names were mispelled due to language barriers.

* I see discussions about the number 1847. . could it represent a year some gold was mined & reburried? I read an bit on http://www.desertusa.com/magnov97/gold/nov_gold2.html :

During the 1840s, the Peralta family of northern Mexico supposedly developed rich gold mine(s) in the Superstition Mountains. In 1848, during a routine expedition to carry gold back to Mexico, the large party was ambushed by Apaches, and all were killed except for a few Peralta family members who escaped. According to the legend, the Apaches buried and hid the gold and covered up the mine. This area is known today as the Massacre Grounds.

1847 would be one year prior to that. . just a thought in my head that maybe it was getting harder to get out with their gold so they began to hide it & leave "notes" for future findings.


On http://www.desertusa.com/magnov97/gold/nov_gold2.html it also stated that :

In the 1870s, Jacob Waltz, "the Dutchman" (actually a native of Germany), was said to have located the mine through the aid of a Peralta descendant.

Are there any descendants around? Would the family have not talked, left diaries, notes around for the future generation? Any of the descendants ever talk about the stones or gold or ambush?
 


Thank you for your time, knowledge & thoughts. . I am really curious about this one!

Bogart 

Bogart,

It would seem that no one is going to answer your questions.  Anything related to the LDM and the Stone Maps can be found at this site:  http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/

I prefer not to hawk another site here, but it is the best (bar none) reference place for the legends and stories that surround the Superstition Mountains.  A search on any related subject will turn up just about all the information available....and a good deal that can't be found in any other public source.

Joe Ribaudo

 

Bogart, I refrained from posting a reply here in this thread which would be controversial, and posted some answers to the questions in another thread which is dedicated to the debate over the stones, at:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.msg544868.html#msg544868

The link posted by friend Cactusjumper is an excellent source for info too.  Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

    Cactusjumper & Oroblanco     

Thank you so much, each of you , for taking the time to try & answer my questions. . I greatly appreciate this 

I have read over a majority of the posts/articles/so forth posted here & on the other related post as well as other tid-bits I have stumble across via the internet. . I am quite sure my questions were answered among them, it just at times would become trying reading over the many & often repeative items. . so I thought I would just pop out the questions 

Again I thank you kindly for taking a moment to try & help me out with information 

Bogart 

Bowman,

"as far as your question goes there is no known link between ether the maps or the stones to the LDM as far as i know dirrectly ..."

Well......Other than the fact that the Stone Map Trail follows the directions given by P.C. Bicknell in his article about the LDM.  That information had to come from Julia Thomas or Rhiney, and thus Jacob Waltz, as it could not be made up out of thin air or without having been there.

It is also right where Adolph Ruth set up camp.  Just above Ruth's camp is the saddle shown in the Jacob Waltz drawing......framing Weaver's Needle in the middle.  It is also a short distance back from the west end of the range, which is how another newspaper article described it.  That information also had to come from Julia or Rhiney.

Other than the above, and a few other things I am leaving out, there is nothing to tie the two together. ;)

Joe Ribaudo

dose that prove Waltz,stated it that way No it dose not and to think any new paper could get a story word for word with out liveing it up some for its reads is nieve at best ....i am not saying you are wrong i am just saying you have the dirrection backwards they are in fact 180% off...

you forgot one little detail . the massacre site . think about where it is and how they got there , the story goes the were running and fitting ,if it was that hot of a battle than why not them go out to the flat lands they could have pick them off a lot easy out there .. thats just my piont there is no logical reason to drive the spainish to that location unless the location was selected for a nother reason that we dont see or under stand  from our piont of veiws . thus i look at it from a indain piont of veiw and than i make good sense ... drive them away from where they were as far as you can with out them getting to flat land , thats why IMHO the massacre did not happen one cayon to the right as you are head north west ... because they had to many ways to get away in that cayon that tells  me the indain knew just what they were doing and why and where the would drive the spainish before it took place ...

look at tyhe facts they did not try to push them out of the MT,s . it was not a act of driveing them away .. it was a plan to massacre them away from where they had been as far away as they could with out letting them get away with what they had done to the indains in the mines ...i think the indains were far smarter than we give them respect for ...

think about another fact i found odd untell i took a good logical look at it from a indain piont of veiw ... the few bags of ore found at the massacre site ... dont you think it would be dum to run away from the rich mines with a few bags of ore .. why not take as much as you could and if you need to you could dump some to lighten the load . but we dont see that in this case ... little to no human remains were ever found and only a very few bags of ore . maybe the ore was put there by the indain them selfs and the massacre sight had nothing to do with the ore it self ...it would draw people to that location and not to where the fit started at the mine sites ...if they drove them to the massacre site on a hit and run fighting pattern they would have drove them from somewhere into west boulder cayon ... cj have you been to west boulder cayon ?  let me explan why i ask .. they is only one way in or out of the south eastern end of west boulder that is from boulder at fremont saddle ...if thats is the case why leave boulder cayon to the northwest . any deer tracker can tell you the reason because they were already head northwest . there is in fact only one pass into boulder cayon in the dirrection i am talking about ... and there is only one way to get to that pass . if the indains had driven them out of the aera into boulder cayon and they had stoped them from useing boulder cayon the only place they could have gone was north west into west boulder cayon and thats just what they did do...

 if this was totally just my opioion i would lable it that but it is not , and i told everyone at the site about the apache getting guns to the inslaved indains working in the mine and them massacreing the jesuits and the spainish , that story fits almost every little clue and detail of these locations and the known facts with my out line ...


put that togather with the montezuma legend and the dtuchman legend and the dr thoren legend . its over welming odds that we are talking about the same location ...

see this may have nothing to do with gold at all it may have to do with something far more valueable a holly place . maybe we see the gold as more valueable but maybe the indains could have cared less about the gold other than to use it to leed us away from their holly place .. now i am dum and i know there are apache and other tribes reading whaty i type and one has come forward and ask me question about what i am doing and why .... i hold a red spirit within me and i beleave what i am doing will help the tribes .. by hideing the site they have become hiden them selfs .... i beleave there are some of the greatest history of the tribe in the tunnle even before the aztec .....its there i know it is , but can we protect this kind of wealth and their faith after all the white man has done is there any reason for them to trust anyone now ... yes they can trust me .....i dont value money and the gold dose not seal my soul ...lol ..


but the spirits and lossorrows to a witch are like candy ......

Bowman,

Yes I have been in West Boulder Canyon.  It was, in fact, the first place I went to
(age 13) in the Superstitions.  I have been there a couple of times in the following 48 years.

Since your source for the enslaved Apache being worked in the Superstitions by the Jesuits is solely in your mind, I have no reasonable rebuttal.  Your posts mirror the thought process that is taking place within you.

Not being qualified to decipher Nahuatl/Aztec pictographs, I will accept your conclusions as gospel.

"they is only one way in or out of the south eastern end of west boulder that is from boulder at fremont saddle...." 

That comment fits in well with every other conclusion you have written here.  It proves just how familiar you are with the Superstition Mountains.  Don't know why I ever questioned you.

You are doing an excellent job.  Don't let anyone dissuade you from your search for the truth.

I believe I have become a fan.

Joe Ribaudo

 

 ;)  Well I will probably get jumped on for this, and my apologies for posting a controversial reply in this particular thread, but I have to ask this question of Blindbowman.

Blindbowman, are you certain that the massacre victims were in fact Spanish or Mexican, and not simply Amerindians?  You know that two of the three people who first found the human remains concluded that the remains were of Pimas, not Spanish or Mexicans right?  Also you have hit upon one of the problems of tying in the massacre with the tales of Jesuits, Spanish etc - the very location of the massacre is NOT on any of the known major trails, in fact it is in a very odd location.  I had no problem following the trail IN to the massacre site, but could not determine in what direction those victims had originally been traveling, much less what trail they might have been on. 

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasures that you seek, and again apologies for posting a possibly controversial message in this thread.

Oroblanco

Yes Oro,

I have to chime in here!

As we have gone through this in the past, you know that the two people who concluded they were Amerindians, never got off their horses. The Sergeant who determined they were Mexicans, not only got down and looked them over, and found a skull with a gold tooth (you could only find reference to ONE Indian with a gold tooth, while MANY whites and Hispanics had them. MUCH MORE LIKELY), he went back later and found another skeleton under a bush dressed in western style clothes (while many Amerindians DID dress in western style clothes, they usually added their own decoration, but again, it was more likely that a white or hispanic was wearing western style clothes than an Amerindian).

We KNOW there was no report of 25-30 whites missing from the area. There are no Pima stories of a massacre of their people there,

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut........................... ........

There IS a Peralta Family History which states that many of their family were massacred by Apache in Apacheria around that time, and there IS a story passed down among the Apache about them massacreing Mexican Miners around that time.

Circumstantial evidence easily sways in favor of Mexicans being the victims of the massacre.

Best,

Mike

Hi Mike!

I disagree my friend, a family story that cannot be proven to have been a family story prior to 1891, is not solid circumstantial evidence, and the finding of a single skull with a gold tooth is not enough to rule out Amerindians as the victims.  If there were truly such a large party of Mexicans gone missing in that time frame, I am convinced there would be solid records to support it.  If there were a party of missing Pimas, I doubt there would be any records of their having gone missing.  To give an example, we know of a party of Apaches who were literally driven to leap off a cliff to their deaths (it is a matter of record) but among the Apaches there is no record of such a party having disappeared!  Anyway it is possible that the massacre victims were Mexicans (or Spanish) but it is also possible that they were Pimas. 

Oroblanco

You're forgetting to factor in the Apache story about them massacreing a large band of Mexican Miners. Also, the mining implements found by the sergeant when he returned to the scene later.

We are pretty close to being in agreement.

When you add up EVERYTHING IN EVIDENCE, it is only MORE LIKELY that the massacre victims were Mexican. Less likely, but still possible that they were Pimas. Could not be Apache. DEFINITELY not whites.

Best,

Mike

Bowman,

Did your pictographs look anything like this:

where to start ,lol,...

"That's not true. Have you been there? You forgot the Carney Springs trail."

thats very true if you take my statment out of tects .. i said they came from fremont saddle that is north of carney springs trail and why would they duble back knowing the apache was already surounding them from the south . they would not duble back ,logic tells us that ... but yes you are right and it pionts out another peice of data subporting my theories ...why ,look at west boulder cayon .if they could have just gotten out a carney springs trail why did,nt they ... good piont made . beacuse if they were already head north on the run and they thaught they had a head start to get away, the last thing they would do is risk their head start ...

they didnt have a chance , the massacre was planed not a spear of the moment thing .......

:" It proves just how familiar you are with the Superstition Mountains.  Don't know why I ever questioned you"

you question me because your very smart .  you must not  know the superstitions from a navagational piont of veiw  or you would not be makeing fun of me , before i give you my reply cj let me  say i respect you and i beleave your map is real ,.......

as many others . you got lost in traslation ...

OK, lets play the game . frist question to you . what is the main land mark on your map ?

Bowman,

"OK, lets play the game . frist question to you . what is the main land mark on your map ?"

Well that depends on where you are.  If you are coming out of the desert from Mexico, the most important landmark on the map is the outline of the main mountain and the arrow pointing out the way in.

Once you follow that arrow and arrive at the "lofty ridge", everything in site is important.
From Superstition Peak, you can see all three X's.  One of those was Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars.  The other is an old mine, which has been found and worked in modern-day times and is now sealed.  It's possible that the X between Weaver's Needle and Black Top Mesa is Bob Brady's cave of gold bars.

From Superstition Peak, you can see all of the peaks that are marked on the maps as "locater dots".
You can see the hat shape on top of the ridge that separates East and West Boulder Canyons.  It is above Little Boulder Canyon, which is also marked on the Stone Maps.

From Superstition Peak, you can follow the map into Little Boulder, where you must look for the heart.  In time, you will find it.  It is exactly where it is shown on the map, but you can only see it from the north.

You are now at the end of the Stone Map Trail.

There are a number of old trails marked on the Stone Maps, that are not on modern topographic maps.  One of them is the trail that leads out of West Boulder, through a saddle and down into Little Boulder Canyon.  It takes you (precisely) to the heart formation.  I have forgotten more trails in that range than you will ever walk.  I am confident in that remark, because your posts reveal your lack of knowledge of the Superstitions.  Randy, who is fairly new to the mountains, is an "old timer" compared to you.

I understand this post is somewhat harsh, but those mountains are dangerous.  I am never sure if you are just having a good time, or actually believe the stuff you are spouting.  If you are serious, someone needs to attempt to bring you back to reality, before you decide to make what I assume will be your first or second trip into the mountains.

If the Spaniards were in West Boulder Canyon and fleeing the mountains, they would have headed up the Old West Boulder Trail, turned north out of the canyon on the old trail that cuts through O'Grady Canyon.  Once through the small saddle they would have broke to the northwest through a fairly wide, brush filled valley and ended up at the Massacre Grounds.

If there were Indians waiting at that point, they likely would have been Wipukepas and Tonto Apache.  It is just as likely that those killed at the Massacre Grounds were Spaniards camped at that place.  They would have been working the arrastra and processing the gold down into bars.
There is ample physical evidence that that was exactly what was taking place there.

Good luck,

Joe

so let me make sure i am under standing what you have said . the El sombero on your map is weavers needle ... is that what your saying ?

I don't have an "El sombero" on my copy of the Stone Maps.

Weaver's Needle is the triangle slash on the Stone Maps.

sorry i ask i thaught you were still talking about your uncle's tracing .

the reason i asked ,is because the tracking dose not show el sombero ...

I don't have an "El sombero" on my copy of the Stone Maps.

Weaver's Needle is the triangle slash on the Stone Maps.

that would depend on wich stone map you were talking about and who was reading it ...lol

Cousin Sam and I arrived a couple of days before the team, so we could go in early, set up camp and do a little extra exploring.  We were camping in Little Boulder that year.  The morning Duane was supposed to pack us in, it was a little too stormy for my tastes.  Although Ron Was pissed at first....he later told me I was right.

Here I am waiting for the two day storm to let up:

Mike, do you have a good photo or scan or image of the Latin Heart stone?  Thank you in advance,

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

ESTA BEREDA ES PELIGROZA
YO BOY 18 LUGARES
BUSCA EL MAPA
BUSCA EL COAZON

18 GOLD BARS
LOCATE MAP BY XXXXXXX
USE BY XXXXXX XXXX AREA LA PAZ ARIZONA.


ps be sure to use an 1847 map

I have never heard of these stones, but a friend emailed this message, and asked that I would post it here on TNet.
So here goes........


Hello:  The unofficial unveiling of the Peralta Stone Maps at the Superstition Mountain Museum has been changed to June 25th 

Timberwolf

The dowsing witch priest with the cross (crossing) in his hands starts near black mountain;  that peak is his hat and the waving -S- at the lower back edge of the priests gown matches the massive curve in the Salt River nearby the peak.  Find the old Spanish Military Trail crossing of the river near here and begin dowsing.

I go to 1 of 8 places.....  (the 8 richest mineral zones from Hieroglyphic Canyon Arizona, up to Kings peak Utah).

Each Peralta site uses 8 land forms leading into the triangulation grid on each location.  Each grid has 8 markers going dot to dot from the windrose axle hub, past two caches and on to three mines per zone.  That is 5 places per site to obtain visual gold.  The triangle with the knife slash represents cache position between two markers of the infield triangle.  The layout is similar to setting up Tarot cards on an old world table.  A game for the King should he ever visit the New World.

Excellent post my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Another note........

Much of the so called Native American rock art murals that we enjoy running through these routes from mineral zone to mineral zone were actually done by the Peraltas and the Jesuit Monks preceding them.  The Indians originally perceived the monks as Angelic beings they called the big hats.  By the time they caught on, the Jesuits had learned the locations of their ancestors mines and were soon using their rock art formats to pick maps on walls from site to site.  For the most part, the Indians felt that the spirits of their ancestors inhabited all things including stone and would not dare carve on them least they experience spiritual retaliation for doing so. 

The key to reading them is quite simple......match up peaks in the mineralized areas, grazing meadows isolated by stone where burros would be shackled and sources for water same as any map.  The symbols are just unusual, but reference descriptions are still much the same.  The shapes of ridge lines any hunter would use, dominant animal trails to cover burro tracks, the position of the rising or setting sun on June 21st. or quarterly, dominant hills or peaks over looking the mineral zone in question, shadows cast by landforms and such timeless indicators will lead you onto the marker sets laid out on the ground;  basically the same tricks used from around the world by Pirates, Masons, and Kings.  It must all be looked at through the simple mind of a child or you will fall for the illusions inherit to most treasure hunters.  Once you have all of the money you could use, what is left?  These boys loved games of charades and mostly if it confused the French. 

[Excellent post my friend.]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Excellent post my friend.

Ditto to the words of my amigo! 

Twisted Fork wrote

<snip> ...and mostly if it confused the French

You have hit upon a key factor of the "Colonial" days, that the various European powers were in fact trying to seize, steal, encroach etc on the colonial possessions of the other powers and this is especially true between the French and the Spanish.  Their "feud" began in Florida when the French Hueguenots planted a colony there ahead of the Spanish, and the race was on.  Did the French manage to get parties of spies and/or explorers into Spanish America?  Just look at the reactions recorded by the Spanish, often sending off fairly large military forces to intercept French (and Russian and later American) parties they got word of.

Why do you say that there were 8 places, instead of 18?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

Just an educated guess one might say.  I've spent half my life working with 5 main Spanish sites;  4 here in Utah and 1 in Arizona.  Something they all have in common is that the mapped trail coming into the mineral heart zone of each mountain, enters from the N.W. (trail or no trail, passable or not) and each of them uses groupings of 8 land form shapes found on the tablets.  The sequence varies from site to site, but the same eight are used in some combination or another making them flexible enough to apply anywhere that raw gold can be hunted.  Nature has a way of repeating itself over and over in any number of group combinations of these 8 shapes.  

At one site, a French curve may be the shape of the river below the mine;  at another, it may be the shape of the canyon leading up to the site or the ridge, and at yet another it may be the shape of the main animal trail, as it approaches near to the final mine marker set location.  For some reason, the French curve is the most common shape found nearest to the lode(s) initial point of exposure.  The final 8 markers (or pieces of that lead you through the last paces to the digs, will be positioned so as to cause you to cross the same sequence of shapes on the close ground as you did previously coming into the area from afar, just scaled way down and close to an 8 to 1 scale by comparison.  Long range to  short range sets.  Canon range, rifle range, pistol range, stone's throw range and dagger range are the average distances in sequence from the furthest peak down to the last marker near to the mine.  The last target or marker is the heart stone thus, "Knife to Heart" a reference to a concealed entrance that leads into the heart of the mountain where a man's gold can be realized.  

There very well could be 18 sites where pure gold could be mined if one includes Colorado, New Mexico and California.  It is The Trail of the Spanish Horse Soldier.  Cobollo is mentioned as I remember, not hard to track with the richest mines marked off on topographic maps at our disposal.  

Keep in mind that they left decoy mines sitting in the open with tailing piles for the hunter to find.  The real deal has no tailing pile and is in some way concealed in the natural landscape.  Each of these portals have a stone the shape of a man's head set on the ground around 80 feet away (give or take).  Aim at an imagined 45 degree angle across his ear and through his forehead, forward or backward on this line, looking for a shoulder shape that the mine rests on or in.  Some of these stones will also have a second stone next to them similar to the shape of a torch flame he holds ready.

Nothing to add, just bookmarking this.

[very]

HOLA amigo!

Twisted Fork wrote

There very well could be 18 sites where pure gold could be mined if one includes Colorado, New Mexico and California. It is The Trail of the Spanish Horse Soldier. Cobollo is mentioned as I remember, not hard to track with the richest mines marked off on topographic maps at our disposal.

So you think the stone maps could cover a MUCH larger area than just the Superstition mountains, as some have theorized?  It would explain some things for sure.  I had not thought of them in that way, will have to do some  'studying' now! 

As I have posted before, NOT saying you are wrong amigo, just I am not convinced the Peralta stones are any older than the 1930's and quite possibly a good hoax.  One other possibility that has bothered me is that it is not a "treasure" map in the sense that a treasure hunter would view, but from the point of view of a missionary.  So in this theory, it is a map to find the "visitas" (minor church missions) in the back country and the old saying "I am just the horse" carrying the word of God so to speak has some bearing.  In this theory the stone maps are made either by Jesuit or Franciscan priests or monks, and the region depicted may well be some distance to the south of the Superstitions.  Two of our amigos here on T-net have proposed locations that will fit the maps (Cactusjumper and Gollum) in one case virtually perfectly.  Trouble is there are no eighteen gold mines in the locations indicated on the stone maps, if overlaid on the Superstition mountains.   

I find your ideas a very interesting possibility amigo,  I hope you will post more!   
your friend,
Oroblanco

Oh boy, you will never see through the eyes of a deceased yet livid Jesuit spirit guide if you insist on  using dirty words such as "Franciscan".  It's kind of like what America is going through at this time with the liberal administration;  Old world Christian values being dissolved by puppets in the hands of the Holy Land Mafia.  The Jesuits were dismantled due to their first love next to Jesus;  the assassination of frisky liberals in high places.  The French King himself was a sort of queer fellow in their eyes and there was great fun in disappearing his chums.  Evidently the King of Spain took a liking to him and the French King talked him and the Pope into getting rid of the Jesuits in some sort of hanky panky trade off.  So, the Jesuits in the new land having received first hand knowledge from their staff couriers, decided to walk off with tons of gold and silver bullion stored in the Santa Fe mission and split West down the Black River.  Gosh the King was expecting to see all of that hard earned Jesuit booty very soon;  just as soon as it could be transported down to the gulf and loaded on to the fleet.  Well before disappearing and hooking up with the pirates in the Spanish main, the monks took all of that Treasure away from the heated paths of the mad ass and recently stired up Pima and Apachie war parties and headed North into the lush, calm green pastures of Utah.  There they deposited "The Treasure of Santa Fe" and in an  ancient Aztec Kiva that the monks knew was taboo for the Ute Indians to even talk about least they be executed by their chiefs.  Pretty smart of them eh?  After that, the Jesuits disappear from history with the last of the infamous Pirates of the Caribbean and spent their final years plundering the Spanish main in revengeful adventure.  Then a group of clowns show up pretending to be an Indian fan fare and political circus called the "Dominguez - Escalante Expedition".   On board was the celebrated razor sharp dude tracker and coded map maker "Meira".  Got to hand it to them, they really tried and tried to find that darn treasure, but they didn't.

[After that, the Jesuits disappear from history]

HOLA amigos,

Twisted Fork wrote

After that, the Jesuits disappear from history

Aaaah my friend, they did not vanish completely, in fact some in America (Maryland specifically) never did quit their work, and the Jesuit Order was allowed to re-establish itself some years later after the furor died down.  They even founded a major university during the period when they were supposedly disbanded forever.  (Georgetown University, Father John Carroll founded the school in 1789; now remember the Jesuits were ordered to be disbanded forever in 1773 by Pope Clement XIV, and the order was disbanded for 41 years and not allowed to be re-established until August of 1814!!!!)  Never underestimate the Society of Jesus amigo!

I get a strong impression you have much more information, that you would perhaps rather not make public so I will not ask you to - however if there is any additional info you don't mind sharing, I would love to hear more! 
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

Well, one must admit that they were not the type of men to leave their post.  I believe that a number of them stuck around to keep an eye on things with the westward expansion at hand.  Then we have the lovely topic of the I'll never tell because God loves me massacre experts on the prairie who specialized in dressing up like Indians and jumping innocent folks in their sleep with clubs and knifes, the Mormons; woops, I mean Brigam Young's Gang, I mean those one guys that were chased out of the East for stealing livestock on the run and camping in everyone's North 40 without permission, I mean the Saints.  Yes, your right the Jesuits were still around and some of their 125 coded maps that made it back to Seville, Spain and recovered some years ago show adjustments in quads that direct the boys to take other trails in and out of the mine site locations.  A hint of this is the addition of dotted lines drawn and running parallel to existing lines so as to reference seldom known or used back main animal trails running behind the mountains away from new settlements.  I believe the monks were still running around as late as world war II and this includes the offspring of the Peraltas.  History is just lame in recording such events with the communists take over in full swing.  Cloak and dagger survives in the Jesuit Hoods.

[the monks were still running around as late as world war II]

HOLA amigos,

Twisted Fork wrote

the monks were still running around as late as world war II

The Society of Jesus is still around and very active TODAY  - we even have several members here on T-net whom are members of the Order.  I have often puzzled, how strange it is - considering how the Jesuits cry poverty and deny any mining activities, smuggling, using slaves etc that whenever and where-ever there are treasures, we are bound to find some Jesuits in the mix!  

Twisted Fork also wrote

with the communists take over in full swing.

Sounds like you have been listening to Fox news amigo - don't believe everything you hear!  The takeover took place quite some time ago - in 1963........and there is a better term for it, also an "-ISM"
your friend in 'Dakota Territory',
Roy ~ Oroblanco

_{Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power  Benito Mussolini}

Jesus was not Jewish.  He came from the North and was Patriarchal, not Matriarchal.  Communism has been alive since they crucified him.  It means "Anti-Christ", to walk arm in arm with men, rather than God.  Pilot nick named him their King of Judea as such to tease the locals Christ had condemned.  The proper term is Pharisees who were not of the tribes of Israel;  The term Jew has only been around since the 1800's.  They were of a different source other than the Israelites and were rather those of  Edam/Canaanite.   The monks of the Jesuits and others before them have been a thorn in their side from the day the monks were conceived.  

These stone tablets and their location were probably used as a mail box for the Monks as they appear to have been adjusted by different techniques of marking. The Peraltas may have added 1847 to them in the event of the war at which time the end was in sight. Knife to Heart, from the beginning to the end.

 I am aware of a concealed and undisturbed Peralta mine in particular that I tracked with the tablets, of which the final quad reads 147 degrees from it's headstone marker.  Legend has it that Spanish involvement on this site in particular originates from the year 1562.  It is a massive hydrothermal and a freak of nature as most gold deposits go. The breakup of the Jesuits took place just as they were getting ready to build a monastery over it atop the mine.  Jesuit Ghosts still watch over their treasures and I have seen them with my own eyes, walking up the mountain.

I have done alot of investigations on the Peralta Stones, especially when I was still in Arizona.

The whole deal still, to this day, does not sit right.

First, who would find engraved stones and then not go right back to see if there was any thing else?   Nobody here, that I know.

Second, the lettering of 1847 is masterfully done, very precise, yet the inscriptions in some areas are (seem to me) to be done by someone who has neither a working knowledge of Spanish, nor of rock engraving.  Peligroza - (dangerous) -mis-spelled - corazon (heart) mis-spelled - cobollo (horse), mis-spelled.  Don Pedro Peralta - a person made up by Reavis - it's definitely a paradox. Most Jesuits were well educated - they certainly wouldn't be misspelling something as important as a map. Engraving is not like writing with a pen, it takes time to carve a word, and I would think it more difficult to make a mistake.

Plus, all the goings on with the stones after they were 'found', with Tumlinson and Moel, etc.

I would like to see proof positive of the datings on the stones - it is not a foregone conclusion, either way, whether they are as old as they might be, nor, that they are of a newer age.

Even if all were as it has been purported, it still would not mean that the Stones are a lead to the Lost Dutchman, nor any treasure for that matter.

B

Just my opinion but..
until someone can come up with a single shred of evidence or documentation linking these stones to anything or anyone they are nothing but interesting carved stones with one or two or a dozen differen't authors that may or may not have been carved between 1700 and 1945.
Twisted Fork, I really enjoy your posts and hope that you will contiunue but can you offer anything to back them up?? 125 coded maps? can you provided one or a link to one?

Bill           

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I believe that early Mexican history shows that some of the early Peralta family carved grave stones in Sonora.  At least that is one version I remember reading in an old now out of print volume from the Arizona archives.  Incorrect spellings are intentional and a craft of the code maker.  First you will need a dictionary in Italian, Portuguese, Latin, Spanish, and French.  When you find what appears to be a misspelled word, cross reference it in each language.  Then investigate 5 other words in each dictionary, that are closest to the same spelling.  Now play charades with the monks and their period life style pictured in your thoughts.  Consider old world slang from the time period.  The priest in the witch hat who stands by the river, holds a staff that is a picture that is telling you to cross reference everything to do with the signs.  Everything is reference as in a game of charades.  This system came into being through the monks entertaining bilingual ship crews at sea;  most of which could not read but who were easily amused with picture games such as casting finger shadows on the wall with a candle.  Nursery rhymes included.

Example:  

            The word "Bereda" is old world slang for "Big Knife",  which refers to a giant cactus of which is a blade sticking up from the ground (Barrel Cactus) or a sword with hilt stuck into the ground (Saguaro).  With the addition of the word "Barrel" and "Big" or "Giant", we have a reference to "A Canon" or "Long Gun" which refers to range in distance from the point.  A canon is also reference to music with "Bars".  This can reference vocal range or distance at ear shot, and so on;  consider the desert and "Canyon".  Canons are set a a slope angle through aim and on it goes without end as a song like row, row, row your boat which is functional reference to the "Corsair" which is used for leaving a body of water or seeking   "A Landing" or shelf or tier or pier and so on.  Nautical measure comes into play and the ores of the boat.  The captains closest (His Parrot) sits on a shoulder, but may reference in a shoulder shape and it looks back from a perch like a cactus near the mine.  Get a bird's eye view overlooking the site. A picture tells a thousand words.  Consider the man.  If I know most Mexican fellows of the period, the mind flows best with this after a fine pipe load.

There is, and has been, another explanation for the witch and the cross.

If you notice, the witch has the cross sideways, and there are 'pieces' of something (assumed to be the stones by those who have this idea), and that the witch is actually breaking the stones into pieces.

The errors on the stones cannot be cross-referenced to anything, and they are not slang. (which is what I believe you are referring to).  They are mis-spellings.  In fact, if you continue to read in Spanish, there are also grammatical errors.  Like YO BOY - I, I ? 

Peralta's were certainly thought to be further south - Miguel Peralta.

Pedro Peralta is a whole 'nuther animal.

B

.... the mind flows best with this after a fine pipe load.

Uh-huh.  Your unsubstantiated rants fit the mold.

Beth,

As I have gone round and round with Roy about in the past, ONE thing stands out above ANYTHING else! ALWAYS watch what people DO and not what they SAY. Doing so will give you a truer representation of that persons real intentions.

I almost want to hunt my old posts down to cut and paste them here, buuuuuuuuut:

>Travis Tumlinson (original finder in 1949, unless you believe in the Arizpe Mission Version): Kept the stones pretty much a secret until his death in 1961. Never attempted to sell them. Not likely that he faked them, since he never tried to cash them out in the twelve years he owned them.

>Robert Tumlinson (Travis' Brother): Had possession of the stones for a few years while Travis was very ill. He never tried to sell them. All he did was get his landlord to fund a few trips to Arizona from Oregon to try and solve the stone maps. When he became very ill, he gave the stone maps back to his brother. Again, not the actions of a person who knows they are fakes.

>Alleen Tumlinson (Travis' Widow): Sold the stone maps to an old family friend (Clarence O. Mitchell) for $1200. If she knew or thought the stone maps to be fakes, would she REALLY have sold them to an old family friend? Not likely.

>Clarence O. Mitchell (owned the stone maps from 1961 until 1969): Kept the stone maps an absolute secret from 1961 until 1964. He never tried to sell the stone maps, but he did use them to promote sales of stock in MOEL Inc (an exploration company he co-owned). After having several opportunities to sell them over the years, he never did. Instead, he donated his set to the AL Flagg Foundation in 1969.

With the possible exception of Clarence O Mitchell, not one of the stone maps owners ever tried to sell them, as would have been the case if they were fraudsters. It is an absolute certainty that Mitchell was not the maker of the stone maps.

ACTIONS speak much louder than do words. I firmly believe that all the Tumlinsons and Mitchell believed in the authenticity of the stone maps.

Best-Mike

Gollum,

I have most of our old posts - and, as you know - the key to my statement is knowing exactly - again - EXACTLY, what the real story is on the age of the stones. (an unlikely scenerio, since I know that a few good folks have doggedly tried to track down the truth, for a long time) 

I'll leave it at that.

B

[the Tumlinsons, Mitchell et al did believe the stones were genuine,]

Gollum wrote

Beth,

As I have gone round and round with Roy about in the past, ONE thing stands out above ANYTHING else! ALWAYS watch what people DO and not what they SAY. Doing so will give you a truer representation of that persons real intentions.

HOLA amigo Mike - I realize this was addressed to Mrs O, just wanted to say that you have convinced me that the Tumlinsons, Mitchell et al did believe the stones were genuine, which is not the same as saying that the stones are in fact genuine.  The stones were heavily cleaned, so it is unlikely that their exact age can ever be determined. 
Oroblanco

Beth & Roy,

We will most likely never know the exact truth of the stone maps (unless someone figures them out or an historical document that mentions them is found).

When Tumlinson first found them, we have the word of a man who helped him clean them off that there were "still little roots growing in the letters". We have Bob Corbin stating that the FBI Agent he spoke to said that the FBI believed they were "over 100 years old (in 1964)." There is also a lot more anecdotal evidence to show that they were historical objects, and not modern frauds.

While it is possible that they were faked in the 1800s and then discarded (Reaves Fraud). To me, it is more likely that they (at one time) led to hidden mines or treasure. I think that they were all discarded at the same spot because either:

1. That is where they fell while the animal they were on ran from the attacking Apache while wiping out the Peralta Family, and laid there from about 1847 until 1949.

2. Whatever they led the way to was all worked out (or emptied), and they were no longer of any value, so, on the way back to Mexico, they were dumped where they were found.

Best-Mike

I think "dumped" is a good word.

B

There is, and has been, another explanation for the witch and the cross.

If you notice, the witch has the cross sideways, and there are 'pieces' of something (assumed to be the stones by those who have this idea), and that the witch is actually breaking the stones into pieces.

The errors on the stones cannot be cross-referenced to anything, and they are not slang. (which is what I believe you are referring to).  They are mis-spellings.  In fact, if you continue to read in Spanish, there are also grammatical errors.  Like YO BOY - I, I ? 

Peralta's were certainly thought to be further south - Miguel Peralta.

Pedro Peralta is a whole 'nuther animal.

B

The Witch's Equinox is your reference here;  not June 21st.  He's pointing out the triangles and the shadow casts to the cache sites at dawn, from the big knife.  The triangle with the 5 and knife slash is a shadow reference as such.  Caches are buried between corners 2 & 3.

[one (1)]

Mr. Fork,

"The Witch's Equinox is your reference here;  not June 21st.  He's pointing out the triangles and the shadow casts to the cache sites at dawn, from the big knife.  The triangle with the 5 and knife slash is a shadow reference as such.  Caches are buried between corners 2 & 3."

I doubt very much that Ted DeGrazia had any of that in mind when he created the Horse/Priest Map.

All,

To date, there has only been one (1) professional examination of the Stone Maps.  While there have been many stories of them being "authenticated", not one (1) signed document to that effect is available.  The professional examination that was done, granted it was limited in time and scope, drew the unanimous conclusion that the stones were created sometime in "the late 40s".

I have contacted two of the three people who examined the stones, and I am satisfied they were unbiased in their opinions.  Those three employees of Desert Archaeology, Inc. are:  Research archaeologist Dr. Jenny Adams, Historical archaeologist Dr. Homer Thiel and research geologist Dr. Elizabeth Miksa.  All three attached their good names to the opinions, based on their specific fields of expertise.

Many were quick to denigrate their professionalism, because of the limited time spent on the examination.  That was not their choice, as the Stone Maps had to be returned to the Museum.  In truth, the only thing they needed was their training, experience and a jeweler's loop.

I know from my own experience and research over fifty years, that the maps are true maps.  They do lead to specific places in the mountains, including mines and caves.  That does not assure that they are authentic treasure maps.  Each of the major locations marked on the maps, match up with known treasure stories, and the approximate locations of each one of them.  Those stories cover a wide span of time, once again pointing to a modern-day author.

To see the relationship of all of these stories to the Stone Maps, you have to be familiar with them all.  Once you tie them all together, a slap to the forehead is called for.

By the way......The point of the "big knife" rests on Parker Pass.  Once you do that on a topo, the rest will fall in your lap.  Anything else is a pipe dream, IMHO.

As you continue your search, and I know you will, remember that you are walking in my footsteps.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

   Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

T Parker wrote

Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

I suspect these folks know the answers.
http://www.donsofarizona.com/

Oroblanco

T Parker wrote

Why would anyone in the late 40's go to all that effort to carve out stone maps that match up to the terrain in the Supers?
Ive heard the theories but no real answers that make sense...........Maybe one day it will be revealed

I suspect these folks know the answers.
http://www.donsofarizona.com/

Oroblanco

  reading between the lines on that one...........makes it clear

  Glad you saw amigo, after all their website does say

For more than 65 years, the Dons' goal has been the study, preservation and public presentation of the history, legends and lore -- plus the cultures and grandiose scenery -- of Arizona and the Southwest.


The wording has recently been changed a bit, and it is enlightening to know that some of the former members included such impressive persons as Senator Barry Goldwater, whom helped a now famous author John Griffith Climenson to get his work published.   
Oroblanco
 

CJ (Joe), you said:

I doubt very much that Ted DeGrazia had any of that in mind when he created the Horse/Priest Map.

Only a few of us here know what you're referring to with that comment, and since it's written as a statement of fact, I think it's fair to let interested people here know as much as you're comfortable with about how you came to your conclusions.

You know I have a good deal of respect for you, but in the end, your conclusions are still only a theory and one of many.  You have more evidence than most to back up your argument, but stating a theory as a fact is still a dangerous thing to do

Personally I think we could have a mighty good discussion here in regards to your adventures, research, discoveries and theories.  In fact, it may very well be enough to start a seperate thread.  I'll let you decide if you want to go that route or not, but I do think it's worth talking about.

See you soon Joe.

Absolutely!

Not one person (to my knowledge) has ever been enriched by the Stone Maps (other than adding to the rich history of Arizona). Alleen Tumlinson got $1200 (but her husband had spent many times that trying to figure out the stones, and she only got that after his death. Clarence O. Mitchell sold some shares of MOEL, Inc, but likely spent more than he made on attorney's fees for the one day trial in 1964.

The only person I know of who has been enriched (other than selling books or guide services) by the Superstitions was Chuck Kenworthy.

IMHO, I firmly believe that the stone maps "at one time" led to great wealth, but whatever wealth they led to was all gone by the time they were abandoned in the desert near Queen Creek. Just my opinion though.

Best-Mike

CJ,

I cannot really say, for absolutely sure, that anything has really been "authenticated".   That is an assumption based on someone looking at it (who is knowledgeable, to be sure), but, never-the-less, not really "authenticated" - as such.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't people who are trying to get a hand-written, "yes, I saw it, I examined it, and here are my conclusions" authentication, and they HAVE been looked at by more than one person. (for different reasons).

B

CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? this would seem to be just after they were created.

Bill   

[also]

Bill96 wrote

CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? this would seem to be just after they were created.

HOLA amigo Bill (and everyone) - I realize this was directed to our mutual friend Cactusjumper, but I just have to add my two shekels; I am convinced the stones were created in either the late 1930's or early '40s (based on artistic style, spelling map details) and my choice for whom, is a person who is now deceased so cannot defend himself but I can say that he was seen making face "Spanish" markers in the Superstitions in this very period and used some of these very same symbols in his works.  I suspect strongly that this was done with the connivance of some rather "powerful" people and group.  I do not doubt Tumlinson's original story of how and where he found them, nor that he truly believed them to be genuine and ancient maps to treasures and/or mines.  Tumlinson could have lied about this of course, but it was un-necessary and based on his actions later, he seemed to be sincere and truthful so I tend to trust his story of how he found them.

Not to put words into CJ's mouth, as he is perfectly capable of explaining his theory very well, but it is also quite plausible and if true, could mean that they DO lead to hidden treasures, of a quite different sort from gold bars or sacks of rich gold ore.

Gollum's theory is also quite plausible and possible, and the idea that the treasures had already been removed certainly explains why they would have been simply dumped right near a regularly used trail (and later a state highway). 

Maybe we will learn the truth one day, I sure hope so!  My apologies for "butting in" to offer opinions asked of someone else.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Roy,
The subject of these stones has probably been beaten to death but....just the idea of someone going to all the work of carving a treasure map into a combination of several, rather heavy stones and then the idea of someone actually carrying theses heavy beasts  around, maybe locating a treasure or treasures and then dumping the stones by the side of the trail!, didn't they have pencils and paper? it seems like paper copies would have been a little easier to transport. And the whole subjust of Tumblinson deciding to take a leak  " at that very spot", what are those odds? Anyway this has always been a fasinating mystery to me, i'll probably never know the real truth.
Bill     

Bill your point about how clumsy, heavy and fragile STONE maps would be as opposed to paper, leather or even WOOD makes the very idea of stone maps seem a very odd and poor choice.  However for the person who created them, stone maps would surely be better for his purpose than any paper, leather etc as his purpose is (or was) quite different from what most seem to think.  

I accept Tumlinson's version as it makes sense in either of two scenarios - if the stone maps were a hoax, they would be left where someone would find them, like close to a highway pulloff.  Alternatively, as Gollum proposes, if the treasure(s) had been removed, the maps were no longer needed so were discarded along the trail, where later a highway was run in.  Actually I would think that if they had been used to locate treasures, the logical place for them to be discarded would have been at the last treasure site, not pack them down the trail any distance at all.  So on this basis it looks more like "hoax" even if we do not look at anything else.   

Treasure hunters always seem to end up being divided into camps when we talk about these Peralta stones, though in one way these stones have shown themselves to be just what Arizona state govt classed them - "curiosities" because they have failed to lead anyone to any treasure, despite being used for years as a map to treasures.  They sure are interesting though!  
Oroblanco

Roy,

In a recent conversation with a staff member of the AZ Mining and Mineral Museum, she classified the Stone Maps as "Crazy".

Take care,

Joe

[Crazy]

Cactusjumper wrote

she classified the Stone Maps as "Crazy".

  How appropriate! Wish I had thought of that one!   

I hope all is well with you amigo, seems you have been quiet a while now so we presume you have been busy lately.  Good to hear from you! 
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hi again Joe,

I don't know if you didn't see my post or if you just would rather not respond to it which I would certainly respect.

Are you able or willing to go into any depth for the folks here as to your conclusions concerning Ted De Grazia and the Stone Maps?

Paul,

My apologies.  I did see your question, but have been on vacation in Red River, NM.  We followed that up with a few day at Vallecito Lake in Colorado with our mutual friend.

I should have qualified my comments with the words......My opinion somewhere in the body of that post.  I believe I have posted my reasoning here, as well as other sites, for that opinion.

I will list the reasons I am aware of, but will need to revisit my notes first.  Probably get back to you today.

Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.

Take care,

Joe

Roy,

I also wondered why make treasure maps out of stone rather than wood, parchment, or leather. The only explanation (other than hoaxing), was that the stone maps were not taken away. They were left hidden near whichever trail the family took. That way, nobody in Mexico would have any idea where the mines were.

They would have been picked up on the way North, and redeposited on the way home. Stone would hold up much better than any other material. When the last odf anything valuable was removed, the stones would have been discarded on the way back South -or- when the mule carrying the stone maps broke away during the Apache Attack, it either kicked the saddle loose or was removed by the Apache before eating the mule.

Best-Mike