The Peralta Stones

There are some interesting posts about Charles Kenworthy and Spanish treasure signs here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine....?f=1&t=339&hilit=john+wayne

Joe Ribaudo

Dear Ellie Baba;
I know nothing of Mr. Kenworthy's personal character, therefore I cannot formulate an opinion in that regard, however I do happen to know a bit about Spanish involvement in the New World colonies and I can state without reservation that Mr. Kenworthy's *expertise* seemed to severely lacking as far as established facts and historical events were concerned, and it is in this aspect that I am speaking of.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

First, Chuck Kenworthy never claimed to be any  kind of a font of Jesuit Knowledge. He was a treasure hunter plain and simple. He became a millionaire in the 1970s in Southern California in Real Estate. He was working on two or three treasure projects at the time of his death, and one that he hadn't been able to spend as much time as he would have liked was a Jesuit Treasure, but he never claimed to have any intimate knowledge of Jesuit matters.

As a matter of fact, the entire subject of treasure hunting is a very sore one with the family, as most of his kids feel that Chuck abandoned them in favor of hunting lost fortunes.

Also, Chuck is the one who recovered those 1028 Silver Bars from Father Javier Saeta's Martyr Cache

Joe,

I have a friend who was very close to Chuck. About a month or so before he died, Chuck showed up at my friend's office with some large boxes of research materials (marked up topos, marked up pictures, etc). My friend was out of town on business, and by the time he returned, Chuck had passed away. He was supposed to have received after Chuck's passing all the copies of the Archive Materials that Chuck based his books on. One person stepped in at the last minute and nixed that.

I will explain my best guess as to why those documents are still kept hidden. Chuck spent a LOT of money bribing Archivists in Mexico, Rome, Seville, and anywhere else he thought might contain the knowledge he was searching for. The information he released was just a drop in the bucket of the knowledge he possessed. Now, that knowledge belongs to someone else in his family. What is being done with it, I can't say. I will say that myself, and people who were close with Chuck Kenworthy NEVER doubt for a second that those documents exist.

I also know that most of the Dutch Hunters never put much stock in any of Kenworthy's ideas about monuments, markers, and the like, but you could fill a thimble with all the gold those experts have found in all their years in the Supers. I will PM you a little something that's not really for posting.

Best-Mike

One of the interesting posts, from the LDM Forum, contained this excerpt:

"Chuck stated that the individual that he hired to work the Seville archives was Eugene Lyon. If that name rings a bell with anyone - it should. Mel Fisher had also retained Eugene earlier to search the Seville archives for information on the 1715 Spanish fleet that was wrecked on the Florida coastline in a hurricane. It was Eugene that found the key clues on the Senora de Atocha that led Mel to the Dry Tortugas south of Key West and his finding of the Atocha.

Chuck said that there were a large number of pages in the map making and trail marking documents that Eugene sent him. The key ones were used in his books, but there were a number of others - some were variations of the ones in the books and others were entirely different."

Dr. Lyon declined to verify any connection to Kenworthy.  No conversation, just silence.

Joe Ribaudo

Dear gollum;
You wrote:
Lamar,

First, Chuck Kenworthy never claimed to be any  kind of a font of Jesuit Knowledge. He was a treasure hunter plain and simple. He became a millionaire in the 1970s in Southern California in Real Estate. He was working on two or three treasure projects at the time of his death, and one that he hadn't been able to spend as much time as he would have liked was a Jesuit Treasure, but he never claimed to have any intimate knowledge of Jesuit matters.

As a matter of fact, the entire subject of treasure hunting is a very sore one with the family, as most of his kids feel that Chuck abandoned them in favor of hunting lost fortunes.

Also, Chuck is the one who recovered those 1028 Silver Bars from Father Javier Saeta's Martyr Cache

Joe,

I have a friend who was very close to Chuck. About a month or so before he died, Chuck showed up at my friend's office with some large boxes of research materials (marked up topos, marked up pictures, etc). My friend was out of town on business, and by the time he returned, Chuck had passed away. He was supposed to have received after Chuck's passing all the copies of the Archive Materials that Chuck based his books on. One person stepped in at the last minute and nixed that.

I will explain my best guess as to why those documents are still kept hidden. Chuck spent a LOT of money bribing Archivists in Mexico, Rome, Seville, and anywhere else he thought might contain the knowledge he was searching for. The information he released was just a drop in the bucket of the knowledge he possessed. Now, that knowledge belongs to someone else in his family. What is being done with it, I can't say. I will say that myself, and people who were close with Chuck Kenworthy NEVER doubt for a second that those documents exist.

I also know that most of the Dutch Hunters never put much stock in any of Kenworthy's ideas about monuments, markers, and the like, but you could fill a thimble with all the gold those experts have found in all their years in the Supers. I will PM you a little something that's not really for posting.

Best-Mike

I would like to ask that we stop and think about portions of your statement logically for just a moment, my friend. I was fortunate enough to have actually read a couple of chapters of one of Mr. Kenworthy's books, Unfound treasures of Mexico, I think it was. Within the few pages that I took the time to read, I found mistake after mistake, and not just mistakes, but glaringly obvious ones at that. Please allow me to provide but one small example from the book. And now an excerpt from the book "Unfound Treasures of Mexico".

Toward the end of the 1500's, New Mexico was colonized by the Spanish. It was in Santa Fe that the palace of governors was completed in 1609. This palace was to govern Northern Mexico; Which Was A Considerable Portion Of United States Today.

Adjoining the Palace of Governors, the San Miguel Cathedral was constructed and in operation in 1636.

This was the central point for the church not only in seeking converts, but to help solve the major problems developing in the palace of governors. It seems that the Christianized miners rebelled if they did not have a fray/padre with them to hear their last confession or give them the last rites at the distant mining operation (and there were many deaths). So, it worked good for both Spain and the church.



First, there is no San Miguel Cathedral in Santa Fe New Mexico, my friend, however there is a San Miguel Mission Chapel, which can in no way be misconstrued for a cathedral, nor is it on the plaza. The chapel was a part of the San Miguel Franciscan Mission, but it's not next to the Governor's Palace. Also, it was not completed in 1636, rather it was was completed in 1610 and is, as a point of fact is, reputed to be the oldest continually standing and occupied church building in the USA. I think that Mr. Kenworthy somehow confused the San Miguel Chapel with the original La Parroquia church, which was also built in 1610 and destroyed by a native American uprising in 1680. Thenceforth a new La Parroquia church was constructed and later, a cathedral was actually built all around the still standing and in use church. Once the cathedral was completed in 1714, the church was torn down from INSIDE of the cathedral and removed piece by painstaking piece through the doors of the newly completed cathedral. The name of the cathedral was called The St. Francis cathedral, after the patron saint of the Franciscans which settled Santa Fe and converted the natives. This same cathedral, which was proclaimed a Basilica in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, is now called the Cathedral Basilica of St. Francis of Assisi.

Next, there was at no time a Roman Catholic church built next to the Governor's Palace in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I'll tell you why. Because the Governor's Palace is on the North side of the plaza and the Cathedral Basilica of St. Francis is on the East side, and there is a very good reason for this. It's because Roman Catholics traditionally pray and celebrate Mass facing to the East, which of course is the direction of the rising Sun. If a church is built facing the West, the altar and tabernacle will be facing East and it is the Eastern wall which the traditional celebrants face. If you visit any older town where there was an early Roman Catholic influence, such as the Southwestern US, Mexico, Central or South America you will discover that the layout of the central plaza is always the same. The church is always on the Eastern side of the plaza with it's main doors facing to the West and the altar and congregation facing the East.

Please note that with the more modern Roman Catholic churches this is no longer a requirement, rather it's more of a preferred option, for lack of a better way to put it. I however, still face the East and I only attend Mass in churches which are oriented in the correct direction, in case you were wondering about it.

Now, let's think about all of this logically. An author, who lived one state away from New Mexico could not seem to get his facts straight whereas someone living in Bolivia can. What's wrong with this picture, my friend? It should be immediately obvious that the man knew next to nothing of traditional Roman Catholics in general, yet he somehow learned all about the inner workings of the early Franciscan and Jesuit missionaries? He couldn't even provide the reader with the correct name of a church nor could he provide the correct date of construction, nor even the correct location of said cathedral. Seeing as how cathedrals are usually fairly oppulant in size and weight, they most generally tend to stay in one place for their entire lifespan, therefore I seriously doubt the cathedral moved at all since it was constructed, especially going as far as taking a stroll across the plaza to it's present location.

Also, as a point of fact, the Spanish contained in Mr. Kenworthy's book is lacking, to put it politely. He used a form of Spanglish which no respectable Spanish or Mexican scribe would have used. Of course this fact leads me to believe that *if* Mr. Kenworthy actually had access to the archives of Mexico and Seville that he would not have been able to translate them with any amount of accuracy, if at all.

I also seriously doubt that Mr. Kenworthy could have bribed his way into the Vatican archives or managed to have copies of any documents smuggled out. First, the Roman Catholic church is a very large group and as such, it has sizeable holdings, therefore bribery will not work with a cleric of the Vatican. Not even a sizeable donation would have gotten the donor into the archives nor would it have gotten copies of any documents out. Please remember that the Vatican archives are not a public library and as such they have always  maintain very strict controls of all of it's documents. In fact, until very recently, only three priests would be assigned to work in the Archives at any one time and always as librarians. Besides, why try to bribe your way past the front door of the Vaatican archives when can do the same research, only about a billion times faster, while sitting in comfortable chairs, with central heat and AC in St. Louis, Mo.? The reason why Mr. Kenworthy never mentioned this fact is most likely because he was not aware of it, as most people are not. For some odd reason, people still tend to think that the Vatican archives house all the deep, dark secrets of the Universe, whereas the truth of the matter is that most of the revelant information from the Vatican Archives can be accessed by virtually anyone.

Also, and this holds true even today, the archives remain vastly uncataloged, that is to say that unless a person knows exactly the document they are searching for and what it is in reference to, they will not get to view said document, simply because the librarians do not know where the document has been filed inside of the archives as the archives have some fifty-two MILES of shelves, my friend. I find it difficult to believe that a man could navigate his way through any archive, be it Spanish, Mexican or Vatican if he were unable to accurately state the history of a particular Roman Catholic church in a country where he's resided his entire life.

The mistakes I've noted in his books are practically without end and in light of this, I've concluded that the man either did very shoddy research, if any at all, or he made up entire blocks of history as he went along.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Not to get off topic, but in mention of the many silver bars found;  did this have anything to do with the basement full of buried silver found on the California border or Esmeralda?  Is she still lost?  This was a Jesuit dig as I remember and there were pictures of some of the silver bars with sharp mint marks intact.

Lamar,

You make many assumptions in your post. NONE of which are correct.

You assumed that I meant CK bribed Vatican Archivists. Please show me where I stated that? You can't. There are many archives in Rome other than the Vaticano Segretto, and the General Vatican Archives. There are the Jesuit Archives on Via Borgho right next to the Vatican Archives. There are also a lot of other historical archives, as well as the archives in the other cities I mentioned.

I also never said which archivists took the money, nor did I state where the 100+ pages of document copies came from.

He wasn't an archive researcher or a Spanish Translator. He was a Real Estate Millionaire with a keen interest in Treasure Hunting. He had a lot of friends in high and low places.

Say what you will about what you may think of his skills, ethics, translation abilities, or knowledge of history. In his years of treasure hunting, the man found more land treasures than anyone else I know (and I know several people who will never have to work again).

I have to admit that I haven't read his book on Mexico. That is one that I didn't get because I was never planning on going there treasure hunting.

Best-Mike

[proof.]

Mike,

I would say you are correct about Lamar making one (1) assumption. Beyond that, his historical comments seem fairly accurate.  I would need to open my folder on San Miguel tonight to check the details of that portion of his post.  I have a great deal of information about the history of San Miguel and it's bell.

Like many "treasure hunters", Chuck Kenworthy had a pretty good sized ego.  As a millionair, it does not seem a stretch to imagine that he would create/buy ore/treasures to boost his credibility, and sell more books.  It wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened.

Kenworthy made many claims which he never produced a single shred of evidence for. He said he had the evidence, but never showed it. Ore or gold/silver artifacts are not in and of themselves proof of authenticity.
Those artifacts, or ore, but must be examined by qualified professionals to reach the level of proof.

Kenworhy, like many treasure hunters, didn't let that examination take place.

Mel Fisher created many fake Atocha artifacts and sold them as the real thing. You may be aware of that story. This world if full of fakes.
_________________________________________________ ___

[The Problem

In 1999, Element Analysis Corp was called upon by the Florida state attorney’s office in Key West, where Mel Fisher’s Treasure Sales Shop was located. Mel Fisher was accused of selling fake gold coins – coins that he claimed were from the wreck of the Atocha.

The coins, seized from his Key West shop by investigators, were flown to Lexington, Kentucky-based EAC where trace element analysis was used to determine the coins’ authenticity.

The Solution

EAC analyzed the gold and silver content of the suspect coins. Once done, the results were compared with authentic, 18th century Spanish gold coins. EAC used Proton-Induced X-ray Emission (PIXE) analysis because it’s fast and does not destroy the original sample.

EAC found that the suspect coins contained 93% gold and 4% silver. While the authentic gold coins from the shipwreck contained 90-93 percent gold with a relatively high silver content of 6-9 percent. The gold was real but the coins were not from the Atocha, or any other shipwreck. The coins, which were sold for around $6000, were worth only a fraction of the selling price – around $270 at current gold prices.

“EAC is what made our case,” ”stated Paul Meyers, an investigator for the Florida state attorney’s office. Because of the quick and accurate analysis by EAC, nearly $200,000 was recovered and repaid to those purchasing the fake coins.]
_________________________________________________ __

Take care,

Joe

Dear gollum;
Once again, I cannot attest to the personal character of the man as I've never met him nor have I had any prior dealings with him, however I can state with no small amount of certainty that his books do not convey any true sense of historical proportion to the actual events which occurred.

Mr. Kenworthy stated that he *uncovered* a document, from an unknown locale as it were, and it was this particular document which spells out the treasure signs & symbols that the King of Spain supposedly ordered to be utilized in the New World colonies. It would be practically impossible, if not completely so, to have been able to produce a document with this much of a profound impact and have it distributed to the various mine claimants across the width and breath of Spain's colonies, yet at the very same time maintaining the contents of said document in complete and total secrecy. It just cannot happen, my friend.

So, in order for this outrageous claim to be semi-plausible, Mr. Kenworthy needed accomplices to aid the King of Spain, and whom would have been better to carry out the task than those dreaded Jesuits?!?!?! According to Mr. Kenworthy, it was the Jesuits who ensured that the mines were marked according to the King's Royal Ordenance and it was they who ensured the King got his 20% cut.

It makes for a good read, if the author is talented enough to pull it off, yet it is simply a work of fiction. In truth, the Jesuits could have cared less what the King of Spain wanted, desired, needed or thought. The king did not give orders to the Jesuits, nor did the Jesuits obey orders from kings. The Jesuits had their own agenda and it was this ignorance of the secular colonists and their complaints to the crowns of Spain and Portugal that got the Jesuits expelled from the New World in the first place.

The Jesuits were basically turning their missions into autonomous governments, which was something the Kings of Spain and Portugal did not take lightly. The Jesuits of course had very good reasons for doing this, the least of which was the protection of the natives from the colonists. Once a native was on Jesuit terrain that native became an automatic subject of the Superior General of whichever mission the native was on and therefore could not be touched or harmed in any way by any secular colonist without express approval from the Superior General of the mission first. As you can imagine, this only happened in cases of the native(s) being accused of murder by the colonist(s) and in such cases the Superior General of the mission became the judge in the matter.

In the end, the Jesuits became victims of their own success as their missions and reductions were soon turning over healthy profits, much to the chagrin of the colonists whose own higher priced goods and products simply could not compete with the Jesuits in the marketplace. If you care to recall the exemptions which the kings of Spain and Portugal bestowed upon the Jesuits, they were funded with start-up capitol from the Royal treasuries and tasked with building missions and converting the natives while providing a source of labor and income to be self-substaining. The Jesuits were exempt from all royal taxes for a period of seven years, after which time it was assumed and expected that they pay their royal taxes at such a percentage that the royal treasury would eventually recooperate it's initial capitol funding and realize a profit from the reductions.

Also, the Jesuits were among the most highly educated men on the planet at the time and as such they were experts at maximizing profits with the least amount of expenditures. And so, the secular colonists simply did not have the intellectual tools at their disposal to compete with this particular Order and they got rid of them the best way that they knew how to, because if the colonists would have declared open war on the Jesuits, the situation would have been very grave indeed.

To a certain point, the Jesuits DID find treasure in New Spain, only it wasn't golden or silver colored and it did not ring when struck. Instead, when struck it went MOOOOOOOOOO and ran away! That's correct, the Jesuits discovered that animal husbandry and the sparse seasonal plains of New Spain made a fine combination of resources and so they became the world's first cattle barons. The natives were extremely well suited to the task of tending the vast herds of cattle which soon sprang up as the Jesuits bred and improved the cattle stocks in the area. The land was ideally suited for the roaming cattle herds as they competed with, and eventually replaced, the wild buffalo herds.

In fact, at the time of the Jesuit expulsion they controlled some 1,000,000 odd head of the beasts and it was such a large amount that after their explusion, the people of Mexico experienced a famine for at least two decades afterwards, as the incoming Franciscans and secular colonists simply did not have the knowledge necessary to tend and care for the vast cattle herds. And so, the Franciscans returned the land to the animals which they were familiar with, that being goats and sheep, which were plentiful, cheap and easy to care for. Also, for some odd reason, the Franciscans find a certain romance in being shepards and I personally think that they found it more in line with their Order's theology or something. Anyway, they seemed to have preferred raising goats and sheep to cattle and hogs.  And this is why mutton and goat remains so popular in Mexico today my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[In truth, the Jesuits could have cared less what the King of Spain wanted, desired, needed or thought. The king did not give orders to the Jesuits, nor did the Jesuits obey orders from kings.]

Dear Lamar,

I fear you have made a few statements which do not conform with historical records (that I have read). 

First:

"It makes for a good read, if the author is talented enough to pull it off, yet it is simply a work of fiction. In truth, the Jesuits could have cared less what the King of Spain wanted, desired, needed or thought. The king did not give orders to the Jesuits, nor did the Jesuits obey orders from kings. The Jesuits had their own agenda and it was ignorance of the secular colonists and their complaints to the crowns of Spain and Portugal that got the Jesuits expelled from the New World int he first place."

Second:

"Also, the Jesuits were among the most highly educated men on the planet at the time and as such they were experts at maximizing profits with the least amount of expenditures."

While this was true for many of the missionaries, such as Father Kino, it was not true for all of them.  Many of the Jesuits were complete failures in that regard.

The portions in Bold seems to be unsupported by contemporaneous writings from that era, including the period of the expulsion.  I would be happy to supply sources this evening, if needed.

Glad to see you back in the conversations.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
As always, I try to view the entire statement in general terms without focusing on any one particular portion mor event, as this would be beyond the scope of this discussion, therefore what I state tends to hold true for all the missions and reductions in the New World colonies. Of course, every situation was different and yes, there were a number of failures, mostly at the very early stages. The reason for these failures varies wildly, with the bulk of the fialures being from either bad management practices or lack of ebvironmental support. As the Jesuit mission in the New World colonies grew, so did their success rate. This was because the various missions provided a sort of mutual support structure which helped to ensure the success of all the missions and from this mutual support and protection grew the autonomous government thing.

As clerics within the Roman Catholic Church, neither the Jesuits nor any other religious Order can be directed or employed by any secular party that could be construed as a conflict of interest to the Order of the Church. Of course, this wasn't always followed however for the most part it was. The Franciscans and Dominicans seemed to be better at playing the political game than did the Jesuits, for they rarely interferred with the colonial's practices, nor did the colonials bother them.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hello Lamar,

I'm also at a loss with some of the things in your last post, especially the part where you say they were protected from the colonists by the Jesuits !!!

i believe after the Indian uprising in Alta Primiera  (sp?) and the destruction of the various missions including the original Tumacacori mission the Jesuit priests complained to the Spanish governor of the province that there were not enough Spanish troops in the area to control the natives and stop it from happening,

whereupon the governor sent a very irate reply saying if the Jesuit missionaries had not treated the Indians so harshly they would not have revolted in the first place !!!,

 furness

Furness,

You have to examine the relationship between the Governor and the Jesuits.  The Jesuits were charged with taking care of the natives, while the miners wanted the Indians for slave labor.  This caused a bit of conflict and the authorities were constantly in the middle.

The priests treated the natives like children, and in those days no one spared the rod and spoiled the child.
Death was always at their doorstep, and only a firm hand would keep order.  If not for the Jesuits, many of the tribes would not have survived the Spanish takeover.

Many of the tribes begged for the Jesuits to come to their lands.  When they came, the Indians had to give up everything.  When they rebelled, they killed everything.  Freedom is not surrendered without bloodshed.

Take care,

Joe

Dear furness;
If you were to delve a bit into the history of the Jesuits in the New World colonies you'll discover that the protection of the natives by the Jesuit missionaries was a very strong point of contention between the Jesuits and both the Spanish and Portuguese colonists. The hostilities had reached a point where the Jesuits were no longer condemning the natives for arming themselves and forming ad hoc militias to protect the reductions. While the Jesuit missionaries officially condemned this action on the part of the natives, in reality they did little to halt it. This feature was not nearly as predominate in the northern colonial regions as it was in the more southerly ones, such as throughtout South America.

And once again the air needs to be cleared as to the supposed Jesuit cruelities inflicted upon the natives. Fr. Kino was a staunchy supporter of native American rights and he continually fought the secular colonists tooth and nail to better the conditions of the natives under his charge. It's a well documented fact that this man, along with his missionaries, fought quite hard for the Sonoran indians, often in opposition to his co-missionary contemporaries, such as the Franciscans and Dominicans, who preferred to follow the laws in New Spain as were imposed by the Royal court of Spain instead of the laws of human decency. Fr. Kino aided the natives in a great many ways, and from 20 head of imported cattle, the missions' herd grew to over 70,000 head, making Fr. Kino the world's first cattle baron.

The main cause for the 1751 Pima uprising was a navitistic movement which had been formenting in the natives since the day the Spanish first set foot in the New Spain colonies. The natives wished to eject the Spanish from the territory and return to the pre-Columbian days, which of course was not going to happen, although the Pimas had no way of knowing this.

And so, looking for someone to blame, the governor did accuse the Jesuit missionaries of cruelity towards the natives, whereby Fr. Guebavi was sent to Mexico City, placed on trial and accquitted of all charges. Naturally, the governor had told a fairly large fib about the supposed Jesuit cruelities and his reason for doing so was mostly to downplay his own ineptitude in regards to the New Spain colonies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear furness;
For the most part, the Jesuits were much more liberal and gentle in their punishments than were their contemporaries. Whereas a Jesuit Superior General might recommend 5 lashes for an offense, a Franciscan might recommend upwards to 10 for the same offense and a Dominican upwards to 20. We must also bear in mind that when the native was liable for punishment so too was the Jesuit missionary in charge of said native. In other words, the missionary shared in the punishment, which was generally more severe to the missionary than to the native. The Jesuits firmly believed that if a person failed as a student then the bulk of said punishment should be meted out to the teacher, for it's the instructor's responsibility to properly teach and train those under his charge.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Joe  Lamar

Thank you for your clarification on that, it is closer to what i had read ( admittedly not a great deal ) about the missions and the Jesuit fathers relationship with the Indians,

it was just that over a period of time Lamar has tended to paint the order as a whiter shade of pale, 

regards to you both,

furness

Furness,

Do you discount the possibility that the Jesuits might have been, "a whiter shade of pale"?

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

You say that Kenworthy never provided any proof of his finds. That is not true according to the PM I sent you. Also, there are extant pictures of some of the Silver Bars from Father Saeta's Martyr Cache. There is no doubt that he removed a huge number of silver bars from their resting place in Southern Arizona (1028 to be exact)(see below).

You have to remember one thing that I stated previously about CK; HE WAS A TREASURE HUNTER. He was in it for the money. He was also a very smart guy. If he would have publicized his finds, there WOULD have been both legal and tax liabilities to deal with. As a man who already had money, he knew how best to guard it.

Joe, I personally know more than a couple of people who will never have to work again because they either stumbled across or spent years searching for and found some pretty remarkable things. Not one of them has publicized their finds (except one who found the cache of gold bars South of Tucson. see below). The only testing they had done was to prove to potential buyers the authenticity of their finds.

You stated:

As a millionair, it does not seem a stretch to imagine that he would create/buy ore/treasures to boost his credibility, and sell more books.  It wouldn't be the first time such a thing happened.

I usually give you MUCH more credit than to make such a statement. YOU are familiar with CK's books, and I would like for you to quote me one passage where he touts any of his ore or silver bar finds? ? ? I will save you the time. HE DOESN'T! He makes allusions to finding death traps, and other interesting things, but he never says that he found anything of value. I will tell you that only people close to him knew anything specific about what he did or did not find.

Lamar,

Mr. Kenworthy stated that he *uncovered* a document, from an unknown locale as it were, and it was this particular document which spells out the treasure signs & symbols that the King of Spain supposedly ordered to be utilized in the New World colonies. It would be practically impossible, if not completely so, to have been able to produce a document with this much of a profound impact and have it distributed to the various mine claimants across the width and breath of Spain's colonies, yet at the very same time maintaining the contents of said document in complete and total secrecy. It just cannot happen, my friend.

That is not what CK said. He said that "Beginning in early 1983, we began receiving HUNDREDS of drawings from archives that depicted the trail markers and monuments that Spain required to be built/constructed both into and out of mountain/hill ranges thyat contained a major mine or treasure."

The part of the story that he didn't include in his book, was the part about starting in the late 1970s, sending out feelers to archivists all over the world showing an interest in purchasing copies of documents that had to do with his interests. There was not some single mysterious document, or some conspiracy. As you should well know, any researcher must request specific documents. Nobody (except the archivists themselves), is allowed to just sit and leaf through a stack period documents. That is where CK's money came in. He bypassed the researchers, who had very limited exposure to the broad expanse of documents that inhabit every old archive, and went straight to the archivists. His sources are to this day are a fairly well kept secret. There are a couple of people who know some names.

The one thing I can't argue intelligently about is his book on Mexico. I don't have it and have not read it.

Best-Mike

So much gold and nothing to spend it on but smelly cattle.  They must have been brutal and mad as hatters.

Lamar,

The thing that you keep skipping over, and have never given a good answer to is:

WHY WERE THE JESUITS THE MAIN TARGETS OF EVERY INDIAN UPRISING FROM 1640S UNTIL THE 1751 PIMA UPRISING?

They were the targets in Sonora. They were the targets in Pimeria Alta. They were the targets in Baja (read Father Sigismundo Taraval SJ's Diary) from 1737 until 1740. Now, you could have stated that the Jesuits were European, just like their civilian oppressors, and were a much easier target than well armed Spanish Soldiers. That doesn't make any sense though, as the Indios would have known that the Jesuits were the only thing standing between them and their potential enslavers. They were uneducated, but not THAT stupid.

There is something else that written history does not talk about. Something that would cause the natives of MANY different tribes in distant locations to single out the Jesuits, their Missions, and the Indios who chose to serve them. I have my suspicions and theories, but they are just that.

Also, if you want to keep ignoring the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves, I will keep posting them:

Father Joseph Och SJ:

The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments.  In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar.  Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings.  These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight.  The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors.  It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated.  The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move.  A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp.  The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos.  I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold.  Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service............"

Father Joseph Och SJ "Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767

Father Juan (Johan) Nentvig SJ (In his published diaries called "Rudo Ensayo"):

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

Best-Mike

[Examine what is said, not him who said it]

HOLA amigos,

Concerning Chuck Kenworthy and his veracity, I have no "dog in the fight" but see attacks on his character as a rather base tactic, and only tends to cast doubt on the motives of the person(s) doing the character assassination.  There is an ancient Arab proverb which is appropriate to consider when we are weighing the testimonies of persons we do not know personally;

Examine what is said, not him who said it

The Society of Jesus has plenty of apologists and defenders today, but the historical record in the American southwest does show that at least SOME members of the society were guilty of some excesses and even engaged in illegal mining, making use of Indio laborers as if they were slaves, beating of the disobedient and/or those perceived to be lazy and shirking their duties.  We have been over this ground before.  The guilty parties may or may not have had the sanction of the Church in their activities, but this point is academic. 

Please do continue gentlemen, just hope we can get past this particular rift.

Oroblanco
 

Dear Oroblanco;
I didn't attack Mr. Kenworthy's character, as, once again, I do not know the man, yet I am able to read and comprehend. In light of this I can state that Mr. Kenworthy's books are much more fiction than fact. Perhaps they were meant to be taken thus, I honestly do not know, however I would like to insert a very healthy note of caution to anyone who wishes to use the contents of one of Mr. Kenworthy's tombs as an aid to finding treasure:
"Caveat Emptor"
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear gollum;
You wrote:
His sources are to this day are a fairly well kept secret. There are a couple of people who know some names.


Somehow this revelation does not surprise me in the least, my friend.
Your as yet not atonished friend;
LAMAR

Mike,

A few comments.

Dr. Lyon never met Charles Kenworthy, but they did correspond for a short time.  Their letters had nothing to do with treasure signs or symbols.  Kenworthy wanted information on a shipwreck in the British West Indies.  Dr. Lyon never worked for, or did any research for Charles Kenworthy.  You may take that to the bank.

I must conclude that the Jesuits, and especially Father Kino were especially stupid.   To illegally mine in New Spain, and then take the gold/silver and place your name on it was suicidal.  The Jesuits were very good at raising cattle, and crops.  The took the fruits of that labor, pretty much native labor, and sold it to the mine owners.  They were paid in gold and silver.

It makes perfect sense that the gold and silver bars/whatever had the name of the person who was going to receive it indelibly marked on the method of payment.  Did Father Kino hide some of those payments away, quite possibly.  Many church items and other items of value were hidden in times of trouble with the natives.

The Catholic Church is, and was, big on visual extensions of the power of the Church and God.  The items you have mentioned were often gifted by wealthy benefactors.  Kino writes of one such lady in his diaries.  There were many.  None of those items translate into Jesuit mines/treasure.

Dr. Lyon has researched this question over the many years he has been an accepted authority.  In his qualified opinion, the Jesuits, in the era and places we are interested in, did not engage in mining for themselves or the church.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe

in reply to your earlier question, no i don't think they were as white as friend Lamar would have us believe,

i do think the majority did a lot of good work with the Indians,  but they were a product of their age and also in their thinking with regard to the natives at that time due to their religious beliefs and education,

i accept friend Lamar will defend them and i accept that for the reasons he himself has given on here in other posts and threads,

but none of us are perfect and that goes pretty much for anyone irrespective of their upbringing or beliefs

regards, furness

Furness,

Thank you for your reply.

I don't disagree with anything you say.  Lamar may paint a rosy picture of the Jesuits in the New World that has some prejudice attached.  You should take into account that the man seems to know their history backwards and forwards.

That knowledge did not come overnight, but likely took years to acquire.  That puts Lamar one step up on most of the people who are posting here, especially me.  While I don't take everything he writes as sacrosanct, I do tend to respect his, obvious, years of research.

Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

Thank you in advance.

Take care,

Joe

It is my somewhat educated experience on these questions that reminds me that the first people to catch wind of the gold mines were the Jesuits know as "The Big Hats" to the Native American tribes.  According to Ute legend, they arrived in a considerable amount of time before any of the Conquistadors.  The Natives loved and trusted them in the beginning due to their references to the creator and fascinating new language experiences as in French.  The Jesuits were not just Spanish, but a combination of sorts in league as a brotherhood.  The Kings of their heritage played second fiddle to the Pope, and you can bet that he knew more about the precious metals of the New World, than any political figure anywhere.  The Jesuits also developed the map codes and recorded the first routes and travels to the mines. 

Being readily experienced in the art of concealing new found church claimed treasures in other lands, and having already established relations with the Chiefs, you can bet that the Native Americans were already warned ahead of time as to what they had coming their way through the Conquistadors.  The richest mines of them all have always held the reputation as being Jesuit, and the mystery of their true location survives to this day due to early cooperation with their Native friends, who also believed in the same God and that pure gold was sacred.  I'm sure the bunch got together and made the early effort to conceal the best for the church;  thus the term "Church Mines."  The Jesuits carefully controlled the richest silver mine in the West know as Esmeralda and only God and their ghosts know where she is to this day.  Much is the same for all of the other major Mother lodes.  They weren't stupid, they were just to smart for the rest of them and died with their God's secrets.  The smartest of people soon learn to act stupid in the midsts of heathens least they be murdered.

 

[Franciscan]

HOLA amigos,
Twisted Fork wrote

It is my somewhat educated experience on these questions that reminds me that the first people to catch wind of the gold mines were the Jesuits know as "The Big Hats" to the Native American tribes.  According to Ute legend, they arrived in a considerable amount of time before any of the Conquistadors.

I believe the Ute legends are referring to Franciscan monks, who in fact did explore and proselytize far into the "frontier" ahead of the military/colonial authorities.  The Jesuits were (almost) late-comers in this respect.  For instance we know that the Espejo expedition of 1582-83 into what is now New Mexico was in search of two Franciscan monks who had ventured out into the "wild Indio" territory and nothing had been heard of; the oldest Spanish missions in Arizona are those of the Franciscans  By comparison, the explorations of good Father Kino in the late 1600's (1690's) were nearly a century later.  Franciscan Father Juan de Padilla volunteered to remain behind with the Wichita Indians in what is today Kansas during Coronado's expedition 1541-42. Also Theatine monks are known to have been missionaries to the Southern Utes.  Anyway I would hesitate to identify the FIRST missionaries to have contact with many of the southwestern tribes to have been Jesuits, though they were first among several tribes elsewhere (including this area where I live.)

Twisted Fork also wrote

The Jesuits were not just Spanish

Correct, many of them were German and also Italian.

Cactusjumper wrote

Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

I realize this question was addressed to our mutual amigo Furness, but haven't we covered this fairly recently, in other threads?  The Pima Revolt is a prime period of history to research if you are looking for examples, but there are examples outside of this period as well.  If we expand the time and/or region in this question, you can have a heavy amount of reading to cover the examples, especially in modern times.  Jesuit priests are after all human beings, which come with inherent flaws and weaknesses. 

Oroblanco
 

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

I realize this question was addressed to our mutual amigo Furness, but haven't we covered this fairly recently, in other threads?  The Pima Revolt is a prime period of history to research if you are looking for examples, but there are examples outside of this period as well.  If we expand the time and/or region in this question, you can have a heavy amount of reading to cover the examples, especially in modern times.  Jesuit priests are after all human beings, which come with inherent flaws and weaknesses.]

I am aware of the Jesuit human frailties.  You are of course correct in that we are all afflicted.  Two books which will give you opposing opinions, as well as facts, are "The Jesuits: History and Legend of the Society of Jesus" by Manfred Barthel and "The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church" by Malachi Martin.

I prefer to keep the discussion focused on the period in question.

I was not asking for reams of references, only a few documented cases would suffice.  When people make such broad condemnations of anyone, including the Jesuits, I like to know if they know what they are talking about, or are simply repeating charges they have heard others level.

For instance, do they actually know what caused the Pima revolt, or have they not bothered to search for those historical accounts?  Were the Pima's able to lodge complaints against the Jesuits?  If so, did it ever happen?  Did they lodge complaints against the mine owners?  If there were any complaints at all, were they documented?

In order to justify the stories of Jesuit Treasure, the first thing that must be done is to change the image of the Order.  What is accepted as good, must be turned into evil, bad, cruel and avaricious.  Once you have accepted that premise, it's a small step to believe that the Jesuits made, in some way, the Indians work their mines until they rebelled from the abuse and killed everyone.  The fact that after the rebellion, the Pima's returned to the missions seems telling.

In other words, I wonder what level of research needs to be done to reply to these posts.  My memory is shot to hell, but I have the reference material at my fingertips.  The sources are the best, but will they be believed?  After all, they are not treasure hunters......not that there's anything wrong with being a treasure hunter,  but they often sacrifice historical fact for what they wish to be fact.

Chuck Kenworthy is a perfect example of that.  He created a fictitious story around a prominent historian, and it helped him sell some books.  As you have seen, to this day, people will swear that Kenworthy paid Dr. Lyon to search Spanish archives for him.  Not a grain of truth to that story.........I am sorry to say.

Take care,

Joe 

Lamar,

First, I see that you have sidestepped my question (yet again), to take the path of least resistance. Casting aspersions at a dead man. Congratulations!

As I have stated previously, CK received what information he had at a great expense. Also, had he presented his documents for peer review (so as to satisfy your ilk), there were (and still are) a lot of people who would have done anything to get them. Once something like that comes to light, you can't stuff it back in the box. Once again, CK was not a philanthropist. He spent his money in order to make money. Maybe you would like to contact any of a number of nautical shipwreck researchers that have ongoing projects, and ask them to present their archival findings, so you can feel comfortable that they are the real deal. Yeah, I would like to have a recording of their answer to you.

Maybe you should call Taffi Fisher and ask her just how much of the documentation they received on the Atocha, did they release before they had EVERYTHING sewn up legally and archaeologically? How much do you want to bet I can guess what her answer is? HAHAHA

You see, QUEST is still technically a viable entity. Since Tiger Kenworthy doesn't do much talking to treasure hunters, not very many people know whether or not he still has his associates out hunting in the field. I can guess that if he does still have anything to do with treasure hunting, those documents will not likely see the light of day. As Joe said, his father had an ego, and most treasure hunters would have kept such documents completely secret.

Joe,

I can give you a very good example. If you read the Precepts to the Jesuits that Father Polzer wrote about in his book, you will see that the ones from 1747 are the second set of Precepts that say the same thing as the first. The only difference being they are much more detailed and specific as to what the Jesuit Fathers were and were not allowed to do. The only reason for this is because the Jesuit Fathera were finding the loopholes in the Precepts and exploiting them.

Lets' look at gambling first: The first set of Precepts just said that Jesuits were not allowed to play cards. The Jesuits read this and found the loophole. They would sit behind the actual card players, and tell them what cards to play and what to bet. The second set of Precepts came out and were much more specific as to EXACTLY what the Jesuits were not allowed to do. The story is well documented (even by Father Polzer).

Next, lets' look at mining: The first set of precepts forbade Jesuit Mining. Okay. Taking a glimpse at the previous (gambling) issue, you can see what the ever tricky Jesuits did. They got Jesuit Friendly non Jesuits to put their names on the actual deeds to the mines. That way, the Jesuit Fathers were not actually mining. Then, with the Precepts of 1747 we get:

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

Starting to get the drift?

The Jesuits of the New World did the same thing as most Jews do today. On the Sabbath, ALL Jews are forbidden from operating electrical equipment. There are entire industries built on finding loopholes in the Hebrew Word of God. Like so many of us, the Jews, and Jesuits before them, only adhere to the word of the law and not the spirit.

By the way, where did you read that Kenworthy stated he received his materials from Dr. Eugene Lyon? I have not seen that in print, nor have I heard anybody who was close to him say that. It is possible that I have missed it, or not read a certain book, or not spoken to the right person, but I have yet to see or hear that.

Everybody,

There is one thing that I feel I MUST add here. It is a possibility (however improbable) that  Charles Kenworthy was a complete fraud. He lied about the documents he received. He could feasibly have purchased a COUPLE OF THOUSAND POUNDS OF SILVER, and faked ONE THOUSAND AND TWENTY EIGHT silver bars. Went somewhere and purchased a trunkload of the richest gold ore my friend had ever seen, just to show it to one or two people and NEVER publicize it or the silver hoard.

Best-Mike

From what I have read years ago, the Jesuits were hell bent on being a secret society and were always first on the cutting edge of anything important to Satan.  Truly a thorn in his side and a prick in his eye. They only saw other forms of church brotherhoods as the competition if not the Devil himself.  The history I remember stated that the big hats were French Jesuits and this is why the early Spanish explorers where shocked to find already fluent French speaking Natives when they first arrived.  Jesuits have had a reputation of being independent spies, bankers and even assassins and this would easily explain why they so quickly grew in power.  They were dismantled out of wide spread fear and the greed of a perverted King.  The locations of the real mother lodes died with them and few if any were recovered by the Franciscans.  Even the foundations of their coded maps and marker sets were designed around the tarot card and its various old world table arrangements.  They were slicker than snot.   

One more thing I need to add here:

I understand that due to confidences, I can't divulge a lot of things I know. I also understand that it is difficult for anyone who doesn't know me personally to take nothing but my word for something that I say is gospel. I can only do what I can do.

I don't get mad when someone doesn't believe me. I completely understand it. I only get p'ed when it gets personal to me someone who is not here to defend themselves. Lamar, you said several times that you weren't making judgements against Kenworthy, but that is exactly what you were doing in several of your statements about him.

In the years I have been doing this, I have found out that a bunch of people that are very well known were completely full of $hit. Many of the most knowledgeable people I know on this subject are names very few have ever heard of.

Yes, Chuck Kenworthy had his flaws (as all of us do), but there is no argument against his successes. While it is in the realm of possibility that he used his millions of dollars to manufacture his finds, but why? He never included any of them in any of his books. The finds that I know he made were never publicized. The only reason for him to have manufactured those finds would have been to defraud a private investor/buyer. I have never heard of anything like that with his name attached to it. I still hold to my beliefs that I have previously stated.

and in the words of Forrest Gump "That's all I've gotta say about that."

Best-Mike

Dear gollum;
You wrote:
I don't get mad when someone doesn't believe me. I completely understand it. I only get p'ed when it gets personal to me someone who is not here to defend themselves

My answer to that statement is:
"Hello pot! Meet Mr. Kettle!" In other words, one should check the condition of their own house before making comments about the houses of others. As I recall, you've been fairly harsh on the Jesuits without them being at liberty to defend themselves, either. Think about it, my friend.

Gambling: You should know that the Roman Catholic church frowns on ALL on all forms of gambling that are not expressly designed for charity. In other words, going to Las Vegas and playing blackjack or craps is considered as sinful, yet buying 10 raffle tickets, the proceeds of which are being used to purchase materials for new church pews, is not. It all depends on form and intent, my friend.

Jesuits were never reputed to have been gamblers. Why that particular precept was installed is beyond me, yet there exists many plausible explanations. Perhaps the Superior General was growing old and a bit senile in his later years? Most likely, someone complained to the Superior General and the Superior General in turn went a bit overboard. I will assume that you were in the military, and life in a Roman Catholic Order is very similiar in that regard, my friend.

I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.

The prohibition on mining was also most probably a knee-jerk response to queries from the Governor, who was receiving news from the secular colonists that the Jesuits were illegally mining gold & silver. We must always bear in mind that the Jesuits were not on friendly terms with the colonists and they were often accused of being Indian lovers and other such things.

Yes, the Jesuit missions became self-sustaining. Yes, the Jesuit missions became commercially viable and at times, profitable enterprises. Yes, the Jesuits recieved payment in return for the goods the missions provided to the region, the country and the Empire. Yes, the Jesuits grew wealthy from these enterprises, but we must remember this is what they were SUPPOSED to do in the first place.

The King of Spain envisioned a land of loyal and dutiful subjects, striving towards spiritual fulfillment whilst tilling the soil and tending the flocks, in much the same manner as the serfs were doing throughout Western Europe at the time. Yes, it was the feudal system and no, I do not wish to debate the merits and demerits of it, it simply was the was it was back then.

The King of Spain also viewed the Jesuits as a group who could meet those ends and that is why he bade them to colonize and proselytize the Americas. As cohesive individuals, we can see for ourselves the impacts that these highly focused and singularly driven men produced. We can see it in the populations of Northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States, in the successes of the region and in the education of the populaces.

We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

The Jesuits were extremely well educated and also very highly skilled men with the additional ability of being able to pass on their knowledge and skills to others, those being the neophytes of their missions. A typical Jesuit mission was a minature typical European village, with all manner of goods and services being provided, from bakeries to carpenters to blacksmiths and so on.

And so, if a colonist needed a animal shod, he took it to the local Jesuit mission and likewise if he required a building to be constructed, he employed stone masons from the local Jesuit mission, just as he would have done back in Europe. As the Jesuits became more successful, their views of a more democratic society were in direct opposition to the colonists, who tended to lean heavily upon the feudal system which ensured a steady and free source of labor.

And yes, the Jesuits collected money from the labors of thier charges, just as they would have done in Europe and yes, their wealth grew in proportion to the success of the individual mission, and yes, the Jesuits turned around and invested the money back into the mission society and used a portion of those funds to establish new missions.

Also, while all of this was going on, it was the Jesuits who stood between the natives and the colonists, sometimes at the cost of their lives. This is highly documented, in various archives throughout the world, my friend. And yes, the Jesuits believed in discipline and yes, some natives were whipped for various transgressions, and yes this was very cruel, much more so than having a victim drawn and quartered or being tied to the wheel of a cart then whipped through town, as our own fun-loving British ancestors were wont to do. Now there was a group who believed in punishment! Yet, oddly enough we never seem to hear anything about that, do we?

You've continually slandered the Jesuits as an organization without so much as the slimmest piece of physical evidence at your disposal, and yet when I question the credibility of a certain person based upon that person's OWN writings, I am supposedly attacking that persons character?
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments.]

Mike,

We are all expressing our personal beliefs about Chuck Kenworthy here.  Much of that is based on the words of people we know, who had some kind of personal, one on one relationship with the man.

There are a number of posts on the LDM Forum dealing with Chuck Kenworthy and Eugene Lyon.  Here is one:

[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]

The author of that post (Roger) is a friend of mine, as well as many other people who post on these sites, and I believe him completely.

I repeat:  "Dr. Lyon never met Charles Kenworthy, but they did correspond for a short time.  Their letters had nothing to do with treasure signs or symbols.  Kenworthy wanted information on a shipwreck in the British West Indies.  Dr. Lyon never worked for, or did any research for Charles Kenworthy.  You may take that to the bank."


Take care,

Joe

Dear group;
I fail to understand why our esteemed associate and friend, Gollum, fails to agree with me utterly and completely, and if for any reason he cannot do so, then at the very least he should concede that I am 100% accurate and correct, as always. This should resolve any and all issues quite nicely, past, present and future.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[partially]

Dear Lamar,

After many years of following Jesuit treasure tales, it's almost impossible to separate your beliefs from historical reality.  I managed to break out of that mind-set, but it took years.  Despite the historical records, Mike may be correct.  I believe he is posting in good faith that what he is writing is the truth.

"In order to justify the stories of Jesuit Treasure, the first thing that must be done is to change the image of the Order.  What is accepted as good, must be turned into evil, bad, cruel and avaricious.  Once you have accepted that premise, it's a small step to believe that the Jesuits made, in some way, the Indians work their mines until they rebelled from the abuse and killed everyone.  The fact that after the rebellion, the Pima's returned to the missions seems telling."

I think that explains the process of what is required to change the accepted history of the Jesuits, concerning mining, in Mexico, and (partially) how Mike arrived at his conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
My prior post on this topic was an attempt at humor, albeit dry humor, however I do think that Gollum will understand and get a chuckle out of it.
Your sometimes not ALWAYS serious friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

Having been the recipient, as well as the author, of many such tongue-in-cheek posts, I have been instructed by my wife to include a few s.

Having said that, your post was indeed humorous, while my last post was serious......At least in my mind it was.

Take care,

Joe

Cear cactusjumper;
Gollum and I have reached a sort of mutual understanding years ago. Whenever he is somewhat unsure of a particular detail, he will present his question as an accusation or remark about a particular group, such as the Jesuits or the Templars. For my part, I generally ignore it completely and before long he'll ask me why I've sidestepped the issue. For my part, I generally continue ignoring the question. Sometimes, if I am feeling benevolent I'll actually address the question, in which case Gollum wins the round. Or so I allow him to think.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[he should concede that I am 100% accurate and correct, as always.]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Dear group;
I fail to understand why our esteemed associate and friend, Gollum, fails to agree with me utterly and completely, and if for any reason he cannot do so, then at the very least he should concede that I am 100% accurate and correct, as always. This should resolve any and all issues quite nicely, past, present and future.

 
And here I was under the clearly mistaken notion that only I was truly 100% accurate and correct, always!   

I would rather we not indulge in dredging up the various charges leveled against the Jesuits, as some were very heinous indeed; we would only succeed in inflaming tempers and perhaps leading to deep offences; the members of the Society of Jesus seem to have a long history of being pragmatists, therefore it should not be shocking if some members did not follow the rules to the letter, especially in the face of common usage and/or convenience.  No mission could be operated at a loss forever, yet this detail seems to have led to great resentment on the part of many colonists or to be more accurate traders who were doing a business with Indios, whether in furs, slavery etc these folks viewed the successful Jesuit missionaries as something between competitors and a dangerous enemy.

Here is one example of the Jesuits in the New World (admittedly in New France, but of the correct period) which is recorded by a Jesuit and admits of their disobedience of a seemingly important rule.

Now, in regard to this Trading; Your Reverence wrote me and called my attention to the rule of the seventh general Congregation of our Society, which absolutely forbids all kinds of commerce and business, under any pretext whatever.  Some others of our Fathers send me word that we must not even look [page 171] at from the corners of our eyes, or touch with the ends of our fingers, the skin of any of these animals, which are of great value here; what can be the cause of this advice? Surely, it cannot be that our Society distrusts those it sends to these regions, in regard to this matter, any more than in a great many others.  It seems to me I have heard that, in France, some who do not know us, and do not wish to know us, cry out that our hands are not clean from this traffic.  May God bless them and make them understand the truth, as I am about to utter it, when it will conduce to his glory.  We cannot expect long to serve the Master we serve, without being slandered.  These [175] are his liveries and he himself would not recognize us, so to speak, if we did not wear them.

 

      Now here is what I can write about it, with the same sincerity with which I would some day render an account to God of all my actions.  Peltry is not only the best thing and the easiest to make use of in this country, but it is also the coin of the greatest value.  And the best of it is that, after it has been used as a covering, it is found to be ready-made gold and silver.  You know in France how much consideration is given the style of a gown.  Here all there is to do is to cut it out of a Beaver skin, and the Savage woman straightway sews it to her little child with a Moose tendon, with admirable promptness.  Whoever wishes to pay in this coin for the goods he buys here, saves thereby the twenty-five per cent that the market price gives them over that in France for the risk they run upon the sea.  The day-laborers also would rather receive the wages for their work in this money than in any other.  And certainly it seems that commutative justice allows [page 173] that, if what comes [176] to us from France is dearer for having floated over the sea, what we have here is worth something for having been chased in the woods and over the snow, and for being the wealth of the Country; especially as those who are paid with this coin always find therein their reckoning and something more.  It is for this reason that the Gentlemen of the Company permit to a -reasonable extent this practice to every one, and do not care whether these skins are used for trade or for protection from the cold,—provided that, in the end, they come back to their storehouse, and do not cross the seas except in their own Ships. In consequence of this, if occasionally one of them gets into our hands, we do not scruple to use it in the way of a purchase, any more than we would as a covering for the little Savages who cause us expense,—or to make for ourselves shoes from the skins of Moose, that we may walk upon our snowshoes, for which the common ones are of no use whatever, because they are so hard.  Such is here the custom of both the French and the Barbarians.  We send also some old Elk skins to our Fathers who are among the Hurons, and some Porcelain, [177] when we have any; it is the best part of their money, and with it they pay for their frugal provisions of Indian corn and smoked fish, as also for the materials and making of their bark Palaces.  This, in truth, is all the profit we derive here from Peltries and other rare things of the Country,—all the use that we make of them.  If it is dispassionately believed that there is some kind of traffic, or even if Your Reverence deems it best to drop all this, in order not to offend any one, we are all ready to give it up entirely.

 

<from The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents, Relation de ce qui s'est passé en la Novvelle France, en l'année 1636. [Chapters iii.-xi., completing Part 1. of the document.] Paul leJeune; Kébec, August 28, 1636 pp 174-175>

We might well note that the author even offers to quit the small amount of fur trade they were ingaged in, if it is deemed best.  We know that the Jesuits did keep slaves, as some`120 were turned over on the expulsion of the Jesuits from French Louisiana Territory and that the Jesuits of Maryland were the largest slaveowners there, by admission of a Jesuit university. In the Pima revolt, several of the Jesuit fathers were at least seen by the Indios as guilty of offences.  I know we have covered this in some detail before, but here is one example,

The same Joseph of Tubac who had suffered the lashes of Father Joseph Garrucho's juryless justice for leaving Tubac without leave to accompany Captain-General Luís to fight Apaches and Seris was apparently one of the prime movers in the revolt (Buptucquim, Tubaasan, Tuthuburi & Siarisan, Feb. 23, 1752:116v), as might have been expected of a stalwart warrior who had been so grievously wronged.

<http://parentseyes.arizona.edu/tubac/cpt5-A.htm>

This summary beating is well within the "norms" of the period, but as viewed through Indio eyes was insult of the highest order.   
Oroblanco

 

[nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!

Lamar made a joke! I can hardly believe my eyes! HAHAHA I don't take offense, and not one thing I have done or posted falls under the "pot calling the kettle black" category. All I have done was to take historical documents whose authenticity nobody (but you) questions, and quote them regarding the Jesuits. I have never insulted them as some have. I know their body of work. I also know that there is a lot left out of history that in many cases can be somewhat brought to light in the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves, and by finds that I know to be authentic.

You say that the Jesuit Fathers would NEVER have gambled. Maybe you should read Father Charles Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" (Tucson, 1976) He recounts the stories. Also, the DRSW Master Database (microfiches of original letters between Jesuits in the new world):

http://saint-denis.library.arizona.edu:4000/cgi-bin/museumLogon.cgi


Is it slander when I quote the words of the Jesuit Father Juan (Johan) Nentvig when he gives us the reasons for the Churches possessing great riches (In Rudo Ensayo)?

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/index.html

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

.....or from the same Jesuit Father, when he describes some of the Church Adornments (In Rudo Ensayo):

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Is it slander, when I quote Father Joseph Och SJ from his book (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767)?

The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments.  In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar.  Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings.  These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight.  The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors.  It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated.  The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move.  A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp.  The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos.  I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold.  Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.........

......or when I again quote the very same Jesuit Father regarding gold knowledge:

....After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery.  .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay.  This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost.  It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

to understand why I quote this passage, you need to remember the dates in the title of the book (1755 - 1767). Those are very important dates, since the Precept against mining (or possessing ANY knowledge of mining) was one of those restated in the precepts issued in 1747! There was little doubt that Father Och SJ didn't know about the precept against mining or knowledge of mining. You have to ask yourself why Father Och just happened to be carrying Mercury? The ONLY use for Mercury is to amalgamate precious metals from their rock host. I don't think that Father Och was on his way to manufacture thermometers. By using the Mercury he was carrying to amalgamate the gold scale out of the peasant's dishes, he was displaying his knowledge of mining technology, thereby committing the sin of Disobedience.  A very serious thing indeed. Here is the Precept again:

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

You state that:

I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.

RIDICULOUS! Not only was the precept originally given, it had to be restated and specified due to Jesuit Fathers following the WORD of the Precept and not its' INTENTION! Your apologist roots are showing! Even Father Polzer SJ amditted these facts.

also.............

We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

1st quote in red: You mean evidence like the published works of the Jesuit Fathers themselves? Please read above quotes.

2nd quote in red: I do my homework very well. I would not post something that is a flight of imagination. I also don't postulate ridiculous theories. The Jesuit Fathers themselves put down on paper the many splendors they saw in all the churches in the Northern New World. Those splendid adornments all but disappeared by 1767, when Spanish Soldiers took the Jesuit Fathers by complete surprise (yeah right). You have previously stated that those adornments may have been stolen by civilians. REALLY? I have a little problem with that. Namely; when the Spanish Soldiers arrested the Jesuits, the splendors were already gone. Do you mean to say that civilians stole all the church adornments from under the nose of the Jesuit Fathers who had no idea they were about to be arrested? Sorry Charlie.

Yes, we agree on everything. Everything except what we post here. HAHAHA You still haven't answered my question (third time).

Best-Mike

Joe,

You stated:

I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".

I don't know your friend, and I won't think to doubt what he says, buuuuuuuuuuuuut........the last part of your statement regarding where CK published that (namely, page 15 of his book Treasure Signs ~ ~). I have that book. I just took it out and reread the entire first part of the book. I can find no reference to Dr Lyon in it. I have scanned and attached it. Maybe it is somewhere else in this book, or maybe another of his books. I will look through all of them tonight just to make sure.

Best-Mike

Joe,

I won't argue about what your friend told you, but here is the story in CK's own words from his book "Treasure Signs Symbols Shadow & Sun Signs"

Best-Mike

Interesting and not coincidence:

An ancient Jesuit site I am aware of deep in the primitive area of the back Uinta Mountains here in Utah, comes up ringing bells with these notes.  There is a head marker of a carved Trident, as one leaves the main incoming burro trail and heads South East 3 1/2 miles to an ancient tree that was long ago topped and scared with fire.  I have seen several sites where a topped and burned tree still remains, about 18 feet away from these concealed bottle neck portals.  The tree position is refered to on the maps as the eagle's perch, overlooking the treasure.  There are mines, and then there are Church Mines/Vaults.  The Treasure of Santa Fe is reference to the location of a mountain(s) where a mine amongst other mines is singled out and deemed as sacred storage for the Church and it's purposes alone.  Any Catholic Don would not dare to disturb such a hold, even though he may gain access to other digs realised in the same regions, his apparent ability to understand the maps surrounding concealed mines of his brothers before him would be revealing enough and self explanatory.  Part of the code in understanding these maps is to look at the land as if it were still under water and that the mountains are islands with choice coves to approach from.  Nautical Measures are used clear up until one approaches the mine site itself, then canon range and the sequence that breaks down to paces;  8 sequences leading to pieces of 8.  To pirate another's hold;  thus the use of a pirates map code and graphics.  Here the eagle becomes a parrot perched on the shoulder of mine.

Sheesh Guys,

I didn't expect this reaction just from saying i didn't think the Jesuit's were as Lilly white as friend Lamar would have us believe,

i will admit Joe my reading has not been Jesuit specific,
mostly general histories of various Latin countries in which the Jesuits were only part of that history, my main interests and the books i have are in a much diffrent area, T, Net is just a sideline, i have also read some of the books that Daryl frieson (sp?) has links to on his site,  including the one Oro has taken his quotes from and that quoted by Gollum,

and i have probably read most of friend Lamar's posts on here over the last year or so, and whilst i can appreciate his defence of the Jesuits it has appeared to me he has jumped in defending them at the slightest thing, and each time insisting they could do no wrong, almost a blanket denial of any wrong doing by them, and quoting the edicts they had to obey,
if he had been less vehement in his denial of any wrong doing on their part I'm sure he would not have had a fraction of the flack he has had from other T, Net members,

i also know he has an almost encyclopedic knowledge of the Jesuits and their work and i admire him for that and have no problem with any of what he has written or any doubts that it is accurate historically,  apart from a couple of very minor items not pertaining to the Jesuits
 
but none of what he has written or stated makes me believe they are as white as the driven snow, i do not believe that is humanly possible for an organisation as large as the Jesuits were and still are to be that good or disciplined, Oro points this out very succinctly in his last post,

you ask can i quote what they did that was bad, it depends on your terms of reference as to what you consider bad and the period, also which side of the fence you are standing at the time,
many of the things we would consider bad now with regard to their treatment of the Indians was normal at that time, so i cannot say yes what they did was bad,

i have no doubt that to a north European protestant in those days every Indian convert to Catholicism would be classed as a foul deed on the Jesuits part, and more so at any co hersion on the part of the priests, hell here on my side of the pond we even beheaded or hung members of the royal family for having the wrong religion at the wrong time,

but there are many questions raised that have even now still not been answered,
is there any truth in the assertion that they were planning to buy land in Bolivia and start their own Jesuit colony, ( I've read four diffrent versions of this story),

and if so how were they going to pay for it,

regarding mining i have also read in recent weeks that for a period of two years they were put in charge of the mines at Potosi in Bolivia,
i know the mines were privately owned, hundreds of them all in the same mountain, so why were they put in charge,  what was their remit for that period, 
it is estimated that during this period over 25,000 Indians died in the mines there, although this is a small number out of the estimated 2 to 8 million over a 400 year period, so many died that slaves from Africa were bought in to replace them as they were running out of Indians,

as i said it depends on your definition of bad, but friend Lamar's posts have not indicated specific areas but more an overall statement that they did no wrong, 
i would have at least expected a bum covering exercise saying that perhaps some were guilty of not following the edicts as closely as they should have,

but even in his last posts he uses the excuse that they were probably written by an older Jesuit who was verging on senility who had missunderstood the card playing,

there are many books on the history of Latin America and many stories where the Jesuits are mentioned and what they did and perhaps a great deal of it is anecdotal or heresay, but there are so many that i cannot believe it is all lies by Jesuit detractors, as most of these are none religious histories and as far as i have been able to ascertain not written with any religious bias,  a great many of the stories may have been passed down and plagiarised over the years, but all of them ?

even today over here we still celebrate guy Fawkes who was a Jesuit and planned on blowing up the houses of Parliament,  he was burnt at the stake, and as he was caught in the act that is pr oven,
but my thoughts on that are come back guy Fawkes all is forgiven,

Lamar you are correct we did have some awful punishments, the waggon wheel they tied them to was a tumbrul/tumbril originally a french word for the cart prisoners being taken to the guillotine were taken on, and probably the origin of the English word tumble,
and that was nothing you only got an head ache or dizzy from that, try keel hauling, or a hundred lashes with a cat o ninetails, small pieces of lead on the end of a whip, very few survived either of those,
and hung drawn and quartered was in the most part only used for treason or something similar , which generally meant someone in high office, generally the poor were only hung,

the reason it is not mentioned as you say is because it is on public record and we don't have to spend most of our time denying that these things happened,
they are all in the PRO in London and you can search for free,  they are not hidden away in the Vatican like so many of the catholic and Jesuit records are,
hiding things are what start conspiracy theories,

and i must admit one of my ex wife's distant relatives had the distinction of being the last person in England to be hung for stealing a sheep,
and i can hear Oro muttering it serves him right !!! he he he   
   
Furness

 

Dear gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Lamar made a joke! I can hardly believe my eyes! HAHAHA I don't take offense, and not one thing I have done or posted falls under the "pot calling the kettle black" category. All I have done was to take historical documents whose authenticity nobody (but you) questions, and quote them regarding the Jesuits. I have never insulted them as some have. I know their body of work. I also know that there is a lot left out of history that in many cases can be somewhat brought to light in the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves, and by finds that I know to be authentic.

You say that the Jesuit Fathers would NEVER have gambled. Maybe you should read Father Charles Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" (Tucson, 1976) He recounts the stories. Also, the DRSW Master Database (microfiches of original letters between Jesuits in the new world):

http://saint-denis.library.arizona.edu:4000/cgi-bin/museumLogon.cgi


Is it slander when I quote the words of the Jesuit Father Juan (Johan) Nentvig when he gives us the reasons for the Churches possessing great riches (In Rudo Ensayo)?

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/index.html


Quote
Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

.....or from the same Jesuit Father, when he describes some of the Church Adornments (In Rudo Ensayo):


Quote
All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Is it slander, when I quote Father Joseph Och SJ from his book (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767)?


Quote
The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments.  In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar.  Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings.  These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight.  The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors.  It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated.  The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move.  A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp.  The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos.  I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold.  Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.........

......or when I again quote the very same Jesuit Father regarding gold knowledge:


Quote
....After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery.  .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay.  This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost.  It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

to understand why I quote this passage, you need to remember the dates in the title of the book (1755 - 1767). Those are very important dates, since the Precept against mining (or possessing ANY knowledge of mining) was one of those restated in the precepts issued in 1747! There was little doubt that Father Och SJ didn't know about the precept against mining or knowledge of mining. You have to ask yourself why Father Och just happened to be carrying Mercury? The ONLY use for Mercury is to amalgamate precious metals from their rock host. I don't think that Father Och was on his way to manufacture thermometers. By using the Mercury he was carrying to amalgamate the gold scale out of the peasant's dishes, he was displaying his knowledge of mining technology, thereby committing the sin of Disobedience.  A very serious thing indeed. Here is the Precept again:


Quote
Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

You state that:


Quote
I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.


RIDICULOUS! Not only was the precept originally given, it had to be restated and specified due to Jesuit Fathers following the WORD of the Precept and not its' INTENTION! Your apologist roots are showing! Even Father Polzer SJ amditted these facts.

also.............


Quote
We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

1st quote in red: You mean evidence like the published works of the Jesuit Fathers themselves? Please read above quotes.

2nd quote in red: I do my homework very well. I would not post something that is a flight of imagination. I also don't postulate ridiculous theories. The Jesuit Fathers themselves put down on paper the many splendors they saw in all the churches in the Northern New World. Those splendid adornments all but disappeared by 1767, when Spanish Soldiers took the Jesuit Fathers by complete surprise (yeah right). You have previously stated that those adornments may have been stolen by civilians. REALLY? I have a little problem with that. Namely; when the Spanish Soldiers arrested the Jesuits, the splendors were already gone. Do you mean to say that civilians stole all the church adornments from under the nose of the Jesuit Fathers who had no idea they were about to be arrested? Sorry Charlie.

Yes, we agree on everything. Everything except what we post here. HAHAHA You still haven't answered my question (third time).

Best-Mike



My question is "Who are you gonna believe? Me, or those lying documents?"
Your can't tell you a lie friend;
LAMAR

HAHAHA ANOTHER E!  I think I'm gonna faint!

Furness,

Upon reading Lamar's theory regarding Jesuit Card Playing, I THINK that may have been his attempt at humor that we didn't catch at first. I would think that coming from the land of Monty Python, you would appreciate a Dry Wit. HAHAHA

If you haven't yet, you should look up the works of Sir Percifal Fawcett. He was one of the premiere South American Explorers (until he and his son were beheaded by some Indians). They actually disappeared, but in the 1930s (I think), some Indian Chief showed Fawcett's Sons shrunken head to another explorer (if I remember the story correctly).

Best-Mike

[Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments.]

Good morning Mike,
 
I have, and have read each of the books you referenced.  I quoted from them a few years ago on the LDM Forum.
 
I wrote:
 
[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]
 
In my quote of Roger's post, I attempted to separate what Kenworthy told him, and what was in his book.  Not very well it seems.   My Bad!
 
I have also tried, as Lamar has, to explain the rich trappings that could be found in even the meanest mission.  The Jesuits spent very little on themselves, other than for spices & chocolate.   I would recommend "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding to get a better feel for the wealth and finances of the missions.  As a side note, I don't believe Ms. Radding was a fan of the Jesuits.
 
I would suggest that you pay particular attention starting on page 70.  Here is a quote from page 81:
"The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.  Jesuits adorned mission chapels with saints' images, chalices, organs, and embellished cloth as a means of imparting Christian doctrine to the Indians in their care."
 
The Jesuits were prolific writers.  With that as a consideration, there is no doubt that you will be able to find cases where they bent the rules, or possibly broke them completely.  The problem comes, IMHO, when you try to advance those few passages into a vast Jesuit treasure legend.
 
The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone.  They left no stone unturned.  Even cesspools were searched.  They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away.  They were shocked that they came up empty handed.
 
I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures.  In those days, their names would have no effect on value.  The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.

Take care,

Joe

Dear gollum;
Yes, it is humorous, yet at the same time, it's very true. As you may have already gathered, the CYA system was in full effect and force during that time period, especially in the New World colonies. Every single complaint to the regional officers was lodged, recorded then presented to the approriate party for corrective action.

If a colonist complained that they witnessed a Jesuit playing cards, then a complaint was recorded then the Superior General informed. Perhaps an investigation ensued and perhaps not. Either way, there would have a been a regulation, or precept written, expressly forbidding the Jesuits to play cards. As a point of fact, missionaries were not supposed to play with dice or cards as these were considered to be the toys of Satan, dice because the Roman soldiers cast lots with dice for Christ's robe and cards because of the stigma that became attached to all picture playing cards by the Church starting about 1450 AD. This was because playing cards were being used as divining tools by gypsies and other fortune tellers. These playing cards eventually evolved into the Tarot cards that we are familiar with today.

Jesuits were permitted to play chess, which was considered to be a noble and intellectual game as well as several other board games, most of which have been lost to history.

The truth of the matter is that no one knows why the there was a precept concerning the Jesuits playing cards. I do know that the gambling was never mentioned, but it would seem that if there were gambling involved, there should have been another precept condemning wagering and forbidding all forms of it, in detail.

Of course the Jesuits may have been merely WATCHING others playing cards and NOT wagering nor advising the card players on how to wager, however if card playing was sinful then so would watching others playing cards be just as sinful. This philosophy comes directly from the Gospel According to St. Matthew 18:9 and others parts of the Gospel:

et si oculus tuus scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te bonum tibi est unoculum in vitam intrare quam duos oculos habentem mitti in gehennam ignis

Translation of the Word from Latin:
And if your eye scandlizes [Causes you to sin] cast it out[remove it] from you. For it is better to go thru life with one eye than to go into He11 with two eyes
If other words, if one is witness to a sin, and in turn does nothing to correct it, then one is as guilty as if they had committed the sin themselves. From this precept we can assume that CYA was being practiced centuries before our modern military machine popularized it and then finetuned it into the artform that it is today

The same may also be stated about mining. We know there were many complaints lodged against the Jesuits by the colonists, accusing them of illicit mining activities, which were NOT taken lightly by the secular authorities. There ensued many investigations into the matter and in virtually every case, the acusations proved to be false and no physical evidence was ever gathered against the Jesuits. .

Therefore, it was logical that a precept be written to condemn the practice of mining and prohibiting the Jesuits from having any knowledge of any and all such activities connected with mining. Of course, the precept does not mean that the Jesuits could not have any knowledge of mining in general, for they were among the world's first mining engineers, as geology was the first cohesive natural scientific area of study and naturally the Jesuits led the way in this arena. Once more, the precept was a classic case of CYA.

As far as the churches being richly adorned, this was indeed a very common practice with ALL Roman Catholic churches of the era and it was quite common for the congregation members to donate heavily towards the decoration and adorning of their church. This comes from the pre-medieval church practice of attempting to re-create Heavon on Earth. That the churches were heavily adorned does not mean that illicit mining was taking place, it merely means that there were many wealthy patrons of those churches.

We know that the early secular colonists profitted heavily from mining and agriculture in the region, therefore it follows reason that they would have donated heavily in order to keep things running smoothly. As a point of fact, the Franciscan churches were more heavily adorned than the Jesuit ones yet we never hear of the Franciscans doing anything wrong. Odd, isn't it?

Why single out one certain Order for accusations? Why accuse the Jesuits and not include the Franciscans or the Domincans? Perhaps it was because those two Orders tended to follow and enforce the secular laws of the lands in which their missions were situated? In other words, they seemed to be much more adept at playing the political game than the Jesuits were and they tended to not want to upturn the applecart.

And while it's true that individual Franciscans and Domincans spoke out against the cruelities inflicted upon the natives, these men tended to be the exceptions to the rule rather than the norm. On the other hand, it seems that the very large part of the Jesuits spoke out against the colonists and they did so frequently and with great fervor. The archives are filled to overbrimming with these documents. Once again, we can see the CYA machine at work.

Once again, the precepts themselves mean nothing, unless we know the original reason pretaining to why the precept was written. I've read many rules of the many Orders and each has it's own Rules, some of which many may find odd or unusual, and in fact they ARE odd and unusual. For instance, in one Order it was expressively forbidden to touch the fur of any animal unless the animal was a beast of burden, such as a mule, or foodstock, such as a lamb.

In another Order, it was forbidden to carry any fish in one's bare hands and it could only be handled and prepared for consumption by someone not of the Order. Weird, huh? And why were these rules and precepts originally written? Who on God's green Earth knows??? The reasons have been lost to history, if they ever existed in the first place and all that remains are the Rules themselves.

The evidence seems to be highly circumstantial,  and it is best to either build upon these suppositions, or pursue another avenue.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[cult]

Dear cactusjumper;
I particularly liked how she worded:
The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.

Does this mean that I, as part of the largest organized religion in the world, am actually a member of a cult??? Someone ought to inform the Pope, I think...
Your friend who is writing a letter to Rome;
LAMAR

Mike I'm glad you only THOUGHT it was an attempt at humor,

Lamar my friend DONT give up your day job !

yes i have read the story about the city of Z fawcet claimed he had found and that his sons shrunken head was shown to a journalist ? by an Indian many years later ,

also sometime in the 60's i read one of his books i think it was called travels through South America, which was a long horse ride, virtually from Patagonia up to as far as Central America published in about 1904 but apart from a couple of the pen sketches that he used to start each chapter which i remember, most of the story is a distant memory,

i also like your avatar Mike,   john cleese, the ministry of silly walks,

regards
furness   

Dear cactusjumper;
One thing which can not be satisfactorily explained to me is why, if the KING of Spain, not a mere member of the Royal house mind you, but the KING HIMSELF, ordered that ALL mines be approriately marked, are there no such signs in South or Central America. Why only the region of Northern Mexico and more precisely, the Southwestern USA? There exists many times more gold and silver mines in the whole of South America than ever existed in Northern Mexico and the Southwestern USA, yet no signs or symbols may be located in those regions. If I recall correctly, Southern Mexico, Central and South America were all a part of the Spanish Empire, with the notable except of Brazil and several small coastal colonies. Why then would this Royal edict be ignored in so many different parts of the colonies? In fact, it seems that only ONE area, that being the colony of New Spain, complied with the Royal Edict. This is fairly difficult to explain, in my very humble opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

Beyond that, there are many, many original maps of New Spain which have the locations of mines clearly marked on them.  The journals of the time give precise locations of mines, including the diaries of the Jesuits.  It seems that some were unaware of the kings orders.

When trying to justify years of searching for Jesuit treasure, every little tidbit of information which hints at it's existence, becomes monumental.......you will pardon the pun.

I believe that the greatest treasure that will be found, will be the information that is being passed back and forth between the opposing opinions on this subject.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend, it does seem just a tad unusual that the King of Spain had supposedly ordered all mines to be hidden and marked in such a cryptic manner with strange symbols, yet so many supposedly *secret* mines were plainly and accurately marked on colonial maps as such. Not only were they marked as mines, many times the people who drew those maps even had the temerity to state what the principle ores were, Heaven forbid!

I guess the old adage "there's always some who don't get the word" holds true, at least in this particular case. Even more strange is that those maps were either drawn by Jesuit cartographers or by cartographers who were trained by the Jesuits.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Notes were taken at the time]

Mike,

Just received confirmation from my friend Roger, that he must have "fat fingered" that five into the page #.  What he was told by Chuck Kenworthy, concerning Dr. Lyon, is not what is found on page 11.  (Notes were taken at the time)

As I told him, Kenworthy is not the first, nor will he be the last, treasure hunter to pad his resume to impress the little people.  Roger was already a big fan, so there was no other reason to lie to him.

Take care,

Joe

[all]

Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I am unsure of the point you are trying to make, as the Royal Edict was for all Spanish subjects in the New World.  The date of the Jesuit arrival does not seem pertinent.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, the date of the actual edict should not be a subject of discussion until we notice that certain authors wrote that the Jesuits were supposedly the ones who enforced it. My question is, how could they have enforced something when they were not in the area until 25 years later?
Your friend;
LAMAR

[that I can remember]

Dear Lamar,

I am interested!  Do you have a source for that information?  Names of the authors or the books?

I had never read that, that I can remember, but would be interested in getting a copy(s).

Thanks,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Here is another tidbit of historical information, but it's not something you will read much about, even though it's no big secret, rather it seems to be a subject which most modern Roman Catholics either do not know exists, or are somewhat uncomfortable discussing. This being the theological war that the Jesuits started against practically everybody within the Roman Catholic church. They were engaged in a virtual state of theological war with some of the oldest and most respected Orders in the Church, the two most prominent ones being the Franciscans and the Dominicans, within 40 years of the formation of their Order.

Rome was literally awash with debates and accusations both from the Jesuits and against the Jesuits on everything from divine grace to free will. It would seem that the Jesuits, by virtue of their extensive educations, were questioning every facet of Roman Catholic dogma and doctrine and in doing so, they were going head to head with the very best theologians in the Church.

And their debates, discourses, discussions and arguments were not contained within the walls or Rome, either. The Jesuits hurled accusations of heresy and blasphemy at fellow co-missionaries with reckless abandon in the courts of China, Japan, Africa and throughout Europe. The principal assailants remained the Dominicans with the Franciscans hot on their heels and together they really gave the Jesuits more trouble than just a little bit.

The Jesuits tended to allow the local populaces the freedom of semi-maintaining their own deities whilst structuring Christianity around the locals own ancestorial beliefs. In other words, the Jesuits believed in slowly integrating the natives to Christianity. This concept was, of course, unthinkable to the ultra-conservative Dominicans and Franciscans. They accused the Jesuits of fashioning their own religion to suit the locale and in many cases this was almost true. The Jesuits really stretched the bounds of Christian dogma as far as the natives were concerned.

The problem first revealed itself whenJesuit scholar named Fr. Luis de Molina wrote a book challenging the existing principles of mankind and free will called "Concordia". It took him the better part of 30 years to complete the work and when he finished the Dominicans had a field day with it. The first copies had not even came back back from the presses in 1585 and the Dominicans were screaming to have the book  banned without review and Fr. Molina censured.

Naturally, the actions of the Dominicans flung the gates open wide and into the gap stepped other Jesuit theologians and of course the Dominicans rushed in and not wishing to feel left out, they were soon joined by the Franciscans en masse and before long, it was game on!

The combined Dominicans and Franciscans fought the  Jesuits tooth and nail over every sentence and paragrapgh and over time this tended to make for very bad blood between the Jesuits and the other Orders. To cut to the chase, the Jesuits embarked upon their mission to the New World with enemies already firmly entrenched.

The accusations against the Jesuits continued almost non-stop from 1585 until their suppression in 1767 and it lasted for 60 years. When the Jesuits were restored, it was a decidely more tame and mainstream Jesuit Order which followed in the footsteps of their forebearers. Something changed within the Order and while again, there is nothing in writing, it seems that the Jesuits were told to cool their jets and not cause any more trouble.

Please understand this next statement very carefully, my friend. While there does not exist even the slightest scrap of proof that the Domincans and/or Franciscans had a role in spreading hate and dissention about the Jesuits among the secular colonists, it would seem that they perhaps played a role in the expulsion of the Jesuits.

I find it odd that the Jesuits were accused of mining gold and silver in areas where none existed! That must have been a good trick, to be able to mine something from the ground where there is not any to begin with, yet this is what took place, and not only in the New World colonies, but also in the colonies of the Philipines and the Orient.

Granted, the secular colonists had no communications with one another between the continents, yet the Dominicans and the Franciscans did.They communicated regularly with their brethen back in Europe and especially Rome.  And so, how could it have been possible for the secular colonists in the Philipines to accuse the Jesuits of mining ilict gold there without knowing that the same accusations were being leveled at the Jesuits in the Americas?

There exists only two logical answers if we were to exclude coincidence, my friend. One possibility is that the
Jesuits really were illicitly mining gold and silver, however there is no physical proof of this, and they were investigated quite extensively. The second logical possibility is that someone, or some group, started the rumors and they were feeding the secular colonists misinformation.

Again, there is nothing concrete and there will probably never be any evidence to back up this theory. The implications are simply damning, yet we can look at historical evidence and note a decide coldness that the other missionary Orders showed towards the Jesuits.

Who knows, perhaps some day an enterprising young Jesuit seminarian will stumble upon this post and start researching the possibility and write a paper on it? Stranger things have happened, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear cactusjumper;
You mean that you've never heard of that famous volume "The Jesuit Secret Code Book" the book which everyone has heard about, the one that practically everyone knows the contents of by memory, yet no one has ever seen? I think that some writer wrote something about deciphering these codes from documents he recieved from Spain and other obscure locales.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

Of course I have heard of it, and have a copy......somewhere.   It's a pee poor treasure hunter that doesn't have a copy on his bookshelf.

Father Molina......Hmmmmm!

Take care,

Joe

SWR,

Is it possible that the Jesuits reburied that treasure in the Superstitions?

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend, Fr. Luis de Molina, born in Cuenca, New Castle, Spain in 1535. He was a very highly respected Jesuit theologian and he really rocked the boat back in his day. In fact, his name was brought up several times before the tribunal of the Spanish Inquisition. That must have took some doing. Anyway, here is a link to get you started, should you decide to research this mostly highly respected and very controversial Roman Catholic theologian.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10436a.htm
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Br. Gollum;
I am afraid that I do not have the answers to all of your questions, however please do not despair. There is a group which can answers all of your questions. Please follow the link below:
http://www.jesuit.org/BecomingJesui.../FormationTheFirstStep/default.aspx
Good luck, my brother, and Pax Tecum!
Your friend;
Br. Lamar

:::chortles:::   

Nah, I am going for the outside.

EB

Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

You are incorrect as to the date of the first Jesuits in the New  World. You say 1609, but Father Polzer SJ in his book "Jesuit Missions in Northern Mexico", on page 242, states that the first Jesuits (Fathers Loza and Ybarra) set up their habitation in Mexico City in 1572. They did not arrive in any numbers until 1609, but they were there much earlier.

Best-Mike

[Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments.]

Good morning Mike,
 
I have, and have read each of the books you referenced.  I quoted from them a few years ago on the LDM Forum.
 
I wrote:
 
[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]
 
In my quote of Roger's post, I attempted to separate what Kenworthy told him, and what was in his book.  Not very well it seems.  My Bad!
 
I have also tried, as Lamar has, to explain the rich trappings that could be found in even the meanest mission.  The Jesuits spent very little on themselves, other than for spices & chocolate.  I would recommend "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding to get a better feel for the wealth and finances of the missions.  As a side note, I don't believe Ms. Radding was a fan of the Jesuits.
 
I would suggest that you pay particular attention starting on page 70.  Here is a quote from page 81:
"The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.  Jesuits adorned mission chapels with saints' images, chalices, organs, and embellished cloth as a means of imparting Christian doctrine to the Indians in their care."
 
The Jesuits were prolific writers.  With that as a consideration, there is no doubt that you will be able to find cases where they bent the rules, or possibly broke them completely.  The problem comes, IMHO, when you try to advance those few passages into a vast Jesuit treasure legend.
 
The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone.  They left no stone unturned.  Even cesspools were searched.  They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away.  They were shocked that they came up empty handed.
 
I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures.  In those days, their names would have no effect on value.  The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

I understood the post completely. Although, he didn't say anything about Dr. Lyon in any of his published works. What he may have said to your friend Roger, I can't account for. As I have gotten to know the ins and outs of so many of the "Published" Treasure Hunters (Dobie, Storm, Mrchkowski, etc), I wouldn't put it past CK to have embellished some of his stories while talking to neophytes (HAHAHA). I can only go by what I have read, and what I know from some friends I have that were very close with him.

I also have read MANY accounts of Jesuits in the New World. I have a fairly extensive library of books devoted to Jesuocity (my word). I have copies of hundreds of pages of period letters written between Jesuits from DRSW Fiche Files. I have the same from the Bancroft Library (UC Berkeley). I have several books by Herbert E Bolton. Diarios of many New World Explorers, many of them Jesuits (Kino & Manje [all five of their expeditions], Diego Carrasco, Father Salvatierra, Velarde, Baltasar, Father Och, Father Nentvig, etc). I have books by Fathers Polzer and Burrus SJ. My knowledge of Jesuits (and Spanish in general) in the New World, with an emphasis on Pimeria Alta, is fairly expansive.

Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.

Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).

My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.

...and that doesn't include writings from others from other parts of the New World (Sir Percifal Fawcett, etc).

Best-Mike

Furness,

Fawcett wrote fairly extensively about the numbers of Jesuit Gold Mines in Bolivia. When he was there around the turn of the century, there were natives whose grandparent had worked the mines (and I'm sure they knew for whom they were working).

He even mentions a bit about how tghe Jesuits had planned to use the money from their mining activities to purchase what was known as Bolivia (much larger at the time), and turn it into an autonomous Jesuit Country.

Best-Mike

Dear gollum;
There was no country known as Bolivia at that time. It was called Upper Peru then. And yes, the first Jesuits arrived in Mexico City in 1572 AD, but they were few in number and they were administration types. The corps of the Jesuit missionaries did not arrive in any great numbers until after 1609 AD, when the King of Spain bade them to help convert the natives.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I should have used Fawcett's words; the area of what is now called Bolivia.

Mike

HI ALL:
  I thought that maybe I would contribute this link,http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/viewer/MS4605_pg1-pg25_Gallery/
for those that might wonder what some of these people and places looked looked like,at least in the early days of photography.
About three or four pages in are a couple of the church of santa fe.Use the toolbar on the  flash viewer to enlarge and scroll around.

Regards:SH

[They found the missions in a deplorable condition]

Mike,

"Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about)."

I had not heard the version you have written as to what took place when Father Serra was given the task of taking charge of the Jesuit missions in California.  This is what I understood took place:
 

[It soon became apparent to the missionaries that, far from what they had been led to believe, they had not entered upon the Promised Land. They found the missions in a deplorable condition. Although they had been in existence since 1697, the date of the occupation of the peninsula, all of them together numbered only 7,149 Christians, including women and children, and many of those were still running around nude. Some of the stations, established in barren localities, had always been poor. The others had been looted since the Jesuits, driven out by Portola in December, had left them.

In fact Portola had, upon his arrival and while awaiting the coming of the delayed Franciscans, charged certain of the soldiers with guardianship of those missions, as the Indians would have completely plundered them otherwise. These soldier guardians took over the looting in their turn. Not to mention the cellars and granaries they emptied, they became voracious meat eaters, and set themselves up as butchers on a wholesale scale. One of them slaughtered 600 head of livestock, another 400, a third 300. "Six months more of such 'administration,'" wrote Palou, "and there would have been nothing left at all."]

My source here was:  "The Last of the Conquistadors, Junipero Serra 1713-1784" by Katherine Woods.

Did you have a source for the information you provided?

Many thanks,

Joe

SH,

Those were some fine pictures.  Thanks for the link.

I have a number of good pictures of the San Miguel Mission, inside as well as outside.  Many are from the same time period as those you provided.  Beyond that, I have a notebook full of information from the Brothers, historians and various other sources.

Needless to say, I found the photos very interesting.

Thanks again,

Joe

All of those missing goods and adornments went into Kivas that once held the treasures of the Aztec's priesthood.  Caves are earthquake proof.  They were visionaries preparing for the end of times and the fall of humanity as it is prophesied.  The book of Revelations was surely their guide.  All were awaiting the great tribulation and the rise of the Anti-Christ.  The Kivas are full with anticipation.  A unique and God mysterious bunch.

Hi Joe:
  It's been some time since I checked the Smithsonian website.The last time,though,you had to have a login to see any of this stuff.
Here is a couple that I found interesting,for example.
The first one is of charcoal kilns in Mexico similar to those that were in a photo that you may have posted some time ago.
The second is also from Mexico,of a stone wall similar to one we have seen before.

Regards:SH

Ellie,

[In fact Portola had, upon his arrival and while awaiting the coming of the delayed Franciscans, charged certain of the soldiers with guardianship of those missions, as the Indians would have completely plundered them otherwise. These soldier guardians took over the looting in their turn. Not to mention the cellars and granaries they emptied, they became voracious meat eaters, and set themselves up as butchers on a wholesale scale. One of them slaughtered 600 head of livestock, another 400, a third 300. "Six months more of such 'administration,'" wrote Palou, "and there would have been nothing left at all."]

Sadly, the "guardians" have been robbing Mexico since the arrival of the Conquistadors.  Rather than face that fact, treasure hunters have created legends of Aztec and Jesuit treasure.  Part of the truth is, that much of Mexico's treasures have been absorbed into the population.  Conquistadors, Indians, French occupation, corrupt Government officials, and the list goes on..........

All this theft of national treasures has been well documented, but is not believed by the treasure hunting community at large.  To accept the truth, leaves nothing to dream of finding.  On the other hand, it's a wonderful and educational hobby.

Beyond that, it gets us outdoors and gets the stink blowed off.

Joe Ribaudo

Good Morning  Ladies and gentlemen:  I have held off putting in my 2 cents, but -- the flesh is weak, in spite of being a living Saint.

A)  Tayopa is established as being real and has been located.  The families of the Indians up there still talk of the Jesuits (Black Robes) that ran it and built the mission and headquarters.
~~~~~~~~

B)  The sierra Indians always have an old woman that is the keeper of the history and linage of the tribe.  Many go way back and are surprisingly accurate.

According to the local Indian family, What was the "Black robe" doing climbing around the area where The Main deposit of Tayopa is located.?? 

There was only one family in the area, this certainly did not justify his being there, unless, he was looking for Tayopa and the main deposit.

Unfortunately he fell to his death and that section is now known as "El Cerro del Cura".  "The hill of the Priest".
~~~~~~~~~~~

C)  Why did the old Indian gal that I cured, tell me of her family and their association with the Black Robes It  was voluntary.

According to her, her family was closely involved with the"Black Robes".  One day they took the jefe (head)of her family,  one days ride to the East
to a small valley.  There they had him build a depository inside the side of a hill and a mission.

Later they came back with two metal doors which they hung inside of the entrance. Periodically, many mule loads were placed inside of the depository, occasionally being sent East to the next mission.

One day they came down very agitated, with many more muleloads of bars, put them, as well as many, many documents, inside of the depository.  They then closed the two doors, locked them, then caved down tons of dirt covering all visible evidence of the depository. 

D) 
Why was the resident Priest at Yecora soo agitated upon seeing my logo of Tayopa and insisted in my going to Yecora for a full night of talk of Tayopa and drinking coffee??
~~~~~~~~~~~~

E) Why were the two young Jesuits (ordained ?)  looking for that lost Au mine  near Chinapas?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F) What about my former assoc and his audience with the then no 2 of the Jesuit Society in Rome, the one who he pointedly asked about the plot to take North America from Spain, in which the gentleman merely laughed and said,    yes we did, but we don't do anyting like that any more.

When I asked him how he managed this Audience,  he said "party because he had been Jesuit educated, but refused to be ordained, and also just plain  'Ba--s", he bluffed his way.

D)  Lamar you are acquainted with the two Councils of the Indies.  They often varied radically with each other. One allowed the Jesuits to mine, the other did not.  They differed primarily in their intrepretation of Royal orders and local conditons.

This for starters.


Don Jose de La Mancha

[I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family]

HOLA amigos,
This is a VERY long reply, so I must beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote

The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone.  They left no stone unturned.  Even cesspools were searched.  They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away.  They were shocked that they came up empty handed.
 
I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures.  In those days, their names would have no effect on value.  The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.

I am convinced the Spanish failed on several counts, for one they were dealing with the Padres and not with the Lay Brothers, whom appear to have been the real operators of most or all of the so-called "Jesuit" mines.  So no information could ever be extracted, as they had no knowledge in general.  The other problem is that of shill-ownership of various assets; these are even listed among the assets discovered by the Spanish authorities, whom did not recognize that the true ownership.however was the Order.  The Jesuit missions were financially successful (in general) and at least in New France, had their own ships for carrying their own needs and produce.  Their very success led to great jealousies and suspicions, and we know the rest of the story.

As for HOW these numerous legends of lost Jesuit treasures, mines etc came about, I cited one example in another thread - where a Jesuit father held the safebox for the authorities, and hid it during Indio troubles - think of how this was interpreted by Indio witnesses.  Then recall that most (if not all) of these legends of lost Jesuit treasures originate from Indio stories passed down and devoured by treasure hunters who preserved (and embellished upon) them.  We might well take note that virtually all of the Jesuit missions and even the visitas were equipped with beautiful and costly trappings, and that virtually NONE of these costly trappings were found by the Spanish authorities.  (Or the French authorities when they were expelled from the French colonies.)  Someone hid these treasures, and they are worth a great deal today.  Here is one example, and penned by Father Keller, whose actions are suspected of being one of the key causes of the Pima revolt

My Reverend Father Gaspar Stiger,<snip>
I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family.
Terrenate, November 28, 1751
                  Your Humble Servant, Keller
      If Your Reverence should see the Father Visitor and Juan, give them my affection.
            letter from Ignacio Xavier Keller SJ to Gaspar Stiger SJ, Terrenate, November 28, 1751
            (AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-49, page 2)

Again consider what an Indio might conclude, witnessing father Keller hide these beautiful objects, with the revolt developing.  How would our Indio report this incident when passing it down to the grandchildren, and from them on to our treasure hunters?  Remember most Jesuit treasure legends can be traced to Indians telling some treasure-hunter friend, who then published it.

I would also point out that the Jesuit fathers were ministering to the various mining camps, now consider how an Indio might see this when they would see the Padre's visits to the mines.  Would the Father not be treated with great deference, even reverence by the mine operators?  An Indio might see this behavior and logically deduce that the Padre must be the owner.

As for pointing out some "bad actors" we could list Fathers Garrucho, Keller, Tello SJ for starters, and take note that one of the key conditions for ending the Pima revolt of 1751 was that Keller must leave the area.  It only takes a handful of bad actors for a whole group to get a bad name, however unjustly. 

Lamar wrote

et si oculus tuus scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te bonum tibi est unoculum in vitam intrare quam duos oculos habentem mitti in gehennam ignis

Hoo boy way too much Latin in one sentence, especially for those who delude themselves into believing their "self-taught" interpretation is in any way accurate!  (heh heh)   Thank you for translating. 

Lamar also wrote

Why single out one certain Order for accusations? Why accuse the Jesuits and not include the Franciscans or the Domincans? Perhaps it was because those two Orders tended to follow and enforce the secular laws of the lands in which their missions were situated? In other words, they seemed to be much more adept at playing the political game than the Jesuits were and they tended to not want to upturn the applecart.

I am mystified at this situation as well, and would point out that the Franciscans do in fact have quite a large number of treasure legends associated with them - however these are largely ignored by the treasure hunting community.  In Texas, New Mexico and elsewhere these legends are circulated but they are just not popularly known.  In Arizona, we know that the Franciscans took over the Jesuit missions after their expulsion, but the Franciscans were far less successful - they WERE actively involved in mining, at least in those few cases where they were able to re-discover earlier mines, but it seems the Apache problem had become so intolerable that "civilization" was in retreat rather than advance while they held sway.  As for the Dominicans, their behavior is far more questionable in many instances, I think the only reason we do not have legends of lost Dominican treasures in the American southwest is because of their absence. 

As our mutual amigo Furness pointed out, we have a number of folks who defend the Jesuits and deny all such activities, but in the case with the Franciscans, we have no such denials.   

Lamar also wrote

Dear cactusjumper;
I particularly liked how she worded:
The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.

Does this mean that I, as part of the largest organized religion in the world, am actually a member of a cult??? Someone ought to inform the Pope, I think...
Your friend who is writing a letter to Rome;

Cult is a matter of definition, according to one source most of us here would qualify - for anyone who believes in some invisible super-being is one definition of a "cult" member.   

Lamar also wrote

While there does not exist even the slightest scrap of proof that the Domincans and/or Franciscans had a role in spreading hate and dissention about the Jesuits among the secular colonists, it would seem that they perhaps played a role in the expulsion of the Jesuits.

Bingo, give that man a cigar!  These little "accusations" are not to be found in any written record for that is not how they were dispensed and circulated, but rather by whispers into the ears of already suspicious, jealous secular authorities.  As evidence that this in fact took place, I point to the fact that it was the good Franciscans whom were appointed to take over the Jesuit missions of Sonora, and these Padres did their own searches for the possessions of the Jesuits.

Cactusjumper wrote

it gets us outdoors and gets the stink blowed off

ROFLMAO  haven't heard that in years, my mother used to point it out as one of the good benefits of having to work outdoors on particularly windy nasty days!   

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

D)
Why was the resident Priest at Yecora soo agitated upon seeing my logo of Tayopa and insisted in my going to Yecora for a full night of talk of Tayopa and drinking coffee??

I still hope to hear from you about this conversation sometime....
Oroblanco

Hi Roy,

"As for pointing out some "bad actors" we could list Fathers Garrucho, Keller, Tello SJ for starters, and take note that one of the key conditions for ending the Pima revolt of 1751 was that Keller must leave the area.  It only takes a handful of bad actors for a whole group to get a bad name, however unjustly."

Historically you are correct here, but the bad blood between Luis Oacpicagigua and Father Keller had nothing to do with anything but pride.

Luis came to Father Keller's mission at Suamca, ostensibly, to get support for a mission against the Apache.  For some reason, he may have been in his cups, Father Keller believed he was attempting to incite rebellion and made some colorful  comments.  I believe it went something like calling Luis "a Chichimec dog better suited to wearing coyote skin and loincloth and to chasing rabbits and rodents in the hills."

That seems like a worthwhile life to me, so I have no idea why Luis took such offense.  To make the peace, Keller was remove but returned one year later and served the mission until his death.  Luis went on to participate in the rebellion and ended up dying in jail.

On the other hand, perhaps the good father simply declined to share his wine with Luis.  As you can see, Keller was a crusty old bird and probably let his drinking do his talking.

Take care,

Joe

Mike,

Were you unable to find your source for the Serra story?

Thanks,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Haven't actually started looking for it yet (work). It was a book that referenced a letter from Serra to his superiors. What he toko to found the California Missions was not livestock or furniture, but Church Adornments. From my memory of the piece, what Serra did find was enough to put into operation several of the California Missions. It was also not nearly as much as the superiors had believed were there.

Also, has anybody read any of the works of Dr. Ronald Ives? One of his writings was called "Manje's Mercury Mines."  Very interesting (especially considering this was during the same time he was wandering with Kino).


Best-Mike

Don Jose,
 
While I have no doubt that you have found something of great worth, history (at this point) is still unchanged.  Once that happens in the public realm, and is accepted by the writers of that history, you will become part of it. 
 
Natives around the world, who lose their sovereignty, have a collective habit of telling those who have come to power, what they believe they want to hear.  Many times, because they tend to live in poverty, the stories are tied to their personal economics.  In the end, it all boils down to keeping the rich close, so they will help the local economy as they work their way towards the treasure/mine.
 
Each and every time the treasure hunters come, they ask the natives for their help and explain what they are searching for.  After a few hundred years, the natives know the stories better than those who are asking for their help.  A tribal history/story is woven into the legends, and becomes "fact".  Among many examples, I give you Coronado.  No doubt, you yourself can add dozens more.
 
You are the answer as to why it's possible that the natives may be creating a false history.
 
On the other hand, it may all be true.  
 
Take care,
 
Joe

[respectfully]

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

the bad blood between Luis Oacpicagigua and Father Keller had nothing to do with anything but pride.

Luis came to Father Keller's mission at Suamca, ostensibly, to get support for a mission against the Apache.  For some reason, he may have been in his cups, Father Keller believed he was attempting to incite rebellion and made some colorful  comments.  I believe it went something like calling Luis "a Chichimec dog better suited to wearing coyote skin and loincloth and to chasing rabbits and rodents in the hills."

That seems like a worthwhile life to me, so I have no idea why Luis took such offense.  To make the peace, Keller was remove but returned one year later and served the mission until his death.  Luis went on to participate in the rebellion and ended up dying in jail.

On the other hand, perhaps the good father simply declined to share his wine with Luis.  As you can see, Keller was a crusty old bird and probably let his drinking do his talking.

I respectfully disagree with your summation viz the bad blood between Keller and Oacpicagigua.  There was certainly more to it than a simple insult.  Here is what another rebel had to say before his execution (for his part in the rebellion)

"I am not the cause of the rebellion. Those who have caused it are Fathers Jacobo Sedelmayr, Ignacio Xavier Keller, and Joseph Garrucho, because of the severity with which they and their mayordomos treat the Indians. *{sup]see note 1 below[/sup] They have also infuriated and aggrieved the Captain General of the Nation, Don Luis. He left his village in the month of September with many armed Indians to make a campaign against the Apaches. He was to go in company with the Captain of Terrenate, Don Santiago Ruiz de Ael, but when he arrived at Santa María Suamca he was informed that the said Captain, Don Santiago, had already left his presidio. The Captain, Don Luis, then went to see Father Ignacio Keller, minister of the said village, to wish him good day and to learn the route he should take in order to most quickly catch up with the said Captain of Terrenate. With no more having been said than that, the Father gave the following response: "You are a dog to come here and ask me that. You can go wherever you want, or not go at all. It would be better if you remained behind. You act like you are trying to be a Spaniard by the arms you are carrying. You are not worthy to go about in this manner. You should be in a breechcloth with bow and arrows like a Chichemeco, and without a servant (because he had in his company an Indian Servant)." And so he went away with his companions. This captain says the Father must have been drunk, because he drinks a lot. From there he returned to his village of Sáric, very sad and disconsolate because of the mistreatment he had received from the said Father Keller and the disdain with which he was treated. Telling me of this occurrence, he said to me, "Brother, I am possessed with this evil of serving in this charge that was conferred upon me by the Father Visitor and confirmed by the Lord Governor in the name of the King. I accepted it in order to be Captain General of my nation and because the Fathers could not now scorn me in any way, since they would have to do as the King commanded. But because the Fathers detest us we are already lost. So, don"t say anything to me now about how we should love the laws of God. It is better that we should live with our liberty. Already, I do not want these arms or this uniform. Now I will betray all the Spaniards." In effect, this is what he did. Afterwards I went to the village of Guevavi on the occasion of the fiesta that is celebrated in honor of Señor San Miguel Arcángel. I arrived at the house of Father Minister, Joseph Garrucho, carrying the bastón (cane) of the sergeant of Captain Don Luis. So, he bid me enter his presence where he spoke very indignantly to me in front of many people, saying when I was there, "You are a dog because you are carrying that bastón. Don't come here disturbing the people. If it was not for the day that this is, I would have you given a hundred lashes with a whipping stick."After saying this he snatched the bastón from my hand and commanded me to leave the village, saying that if I ever returned or if he even heard of me setting foot in the village, he would have his justicia administer a hundred lashes in his presence. To this I said, grasping the title which I carried on my chest, "My Father, I carry this bastón by virtue of this title of sergeant, granted to me by the Lord Governor, that I might assist my brother, Captain Don Luis." But he responded even more angrily, saying, "I do not want to see that title. The Governor cannot grant titles without license from the Fathers. We have a cédula from the King concerning that very thing."The Father kept my bastón and I went away very sadly and afflicted to the village of Sáric and said to Captain Don Luis, "Brother, I am no longer your sergeant," recounting what had happened with Father Garrucho. To this the said Captain replied, "I was possessed of this evil but now I have taken the demon into my body. Now, if we do not finish our work we will lose everything."Then in the presence of three or four Indians (whose names I do not remember, except one who was called Cipriano), the execution of the uprising was discussed in consultation. The said Captain asserted that one day the Indians would strike in all places, killing Fathers Jacobo Sedelmayr, Ignacio Xavier Keller, and Joseph Garrucho because these were the greatest offenders. Sometime after this consultation it happened that Father Jacobo Sedelmayr wrote a letter to Father Juan Nentvig, minister of Sáric, telling him that he should punish me and not to allow me into the village until it could be said that I was subdued. The reason I was not subdued is because of the animosity the Fathers had for me because I was the sergeant of Captain Don Luis, and because I was so persecuted by them. So because of this and because the fires of rebellion were getting very hot, I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards. With this purpose I went to the ranch of Don Bernardo de Urrea to look for my horses, and then I returned to get my children with whom I went to Agua Caliente. Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, "You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts." I then went to the San Luis Valley to live with my foster parents, the Romeros. However, the truth is, when I said good-bye to Captain Don Luis, he told me, "Go, Brother. Take your children because the Fathers are after you. Stay in the San Luis Valley among the Spaniards, observing the forces that they have so that you can provide me with information about them when the time is right. I will secretly notify you of that proper time through a relative, to the end that you can come join us in Tubac. I will wait for you there." However, I did not go there, nor did he send for me to come. And I did not have intention of going there because I wanted to stay among the Spaniards -- and this is the truth. Before the time referred to is when the Indians were rigorously harassed by the way the Father and the mayordomos treated them. They had not resolved to rebel until the said quarrels transpired. They were also irritated because Juan María Romero, Father Joseph Garrucho's mayordomo, and Joseph de Nava seized some Indians and were taking them to the village of Arivaca to turn them over to Padre Garrucho to punish them. One of the Indians, a relative of Captain Don Luis, seeing that one of those to be punished was his son, shot an arrow at Juan María Romero, wounding him in the arm. Although it was not a serious wound, they lanced the Indian and turned the others over to Padre Garrucho to punish them further. And, the Father also chastised them. All of this I declare: since the Fathers have not always been friendly, and since he was the only one who could remedy everything, to tell you the truth, Sir, I boldly spoke to the aforementioned Captain and said, "Brother, we must all meet together and go see the Lord Governor." To this he responded, "I have already seen that the Lord Governor loves us very much, Brother, and for him I am sorry, but we must say, "Sir, we have had enough!" because I am outraged."

<Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa María Suamca, November 29, 1751" (AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35)

Chihuahua made no mention of the pregnant woman whom had been kept in the stocks by Fr Tomas Tello SJ until she died, but Tello was among those padres who paid the "ultimate" price.

Note 1 - Mistreatment by the Padres is a common complaint amongst Amerindians, for anyone a member of the Mission whom was seen as "lazy" could be whipped for this infraction, or put into stocks, and other corporal punishments.  These punishments were nothing out of the ordinary for the day in any European land, but to Amerindians un-accustomed to such treatment, it was nothing less than abuse.  The Mission Indios were expected to WORK, and they seem to have interpreted this work as being done as SLAVES for the Padres; for confirmation we have the letters of Franciscan missionaries who replaced the Jesuits.  Fr Garces wrote that the people were happy that they were not going to be forced to work for him.

I should also point out that Mission Indios were NOT free to leave the mission, once they had been baptized.  *^{see note 2}Anyone who did so, was then an Apostate of low order.  Being so "trapped" in this "cage" may not seem too bad to us, with a reliable food supply and other benefits of "civilization" but to formerly wild and free people this was certainly not freedom.

Extract from letter of Fr Garces quote

The Tugsones gave me to understand that they have not wanted any other priest than me, having understood the goal I impose on them that the priest does not come so that they might work for him, etc., with which they are rather happy. <snip>

The Jesuit fathers of San Javier, with all their cows, fields, horses, etc., were occupied with labors, but with my stipend I shall not be, good sire. I commend it to God who alone is able to bring you here, but may it be as soon as possible that we may together enjoy this carefree existence. Here they call one room that of the captain. Thus it has been and shall be, and not for a poor house of St. Francis have they to leave. I await news, and if God aids our arms and some captains or troops are in Pitíc, I should like to know it.

God Our Father, etc.

FR. FRANCISCO GARCÉS

San Javier. July 29, 1768.

 

In another letter written the same day, Garces wrote

These missions of San Xavier and of the Tugson are quiet. The Indians are content to see that our King wants them as people and not as slaves. As regards doctrine: in the Tugson, none. They have not prayed nor have they a fiscal. In San Xavier, a little less than none, because they do not know it either in Spanish or in their own language.

They have never known it in their own tongue. This is not the worst, because here it has never been possible to assemble the married adults, not even on most occasions our own partisans. Consequently, with great diligence I succeeded in gathering the young people, but few married persons among them. I did not employ violent means to overcome their resistance because things are as they are, and so that I might test other methods.

If the reports of the Franciscans are to be believed, the Jesuits, for all their claims of success in proselytizing, had failed miserably in instructing the Pimas and Papagoes in the basics of Catholicism, let alone other education.  Garces felt the Jesuits were too busy with their other labors.
 
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side.  "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana


*Note 2 Extract of letter of Jean De la Pérouse, after visiting Franciscan missions in California; while this may seem irrelevant it is descriptive of virtually all Spanish & French missions. 

Corporal punishment is inflicted on the Indians of both sexes who neglect the exercises of piety, and many sins, which are left in Europe to the divine justice, are here punished by iron and stocks. And lastly, to complete the similtude between this and other religious communities, it must be observed, that the moment an Indian is baptised, the effect is the same as if he had pronounced a vow for life. If he escape, to reside with his relations in the independent villages, he is summoned three times to return, and if he refuse, the missionaries apply to the governor, who sends soldiers to seize him in the midst of his family, and conduct him to the mission, where he is condemned to receive a certain number of lashes, with the whip.

<from Jean F. G. De la Pérouse, A Voyage Round the World Performed in the Years 1785, 1786, 1787 and 1788 by the Bousole and Astrolabe (New York, 1968) vol. 1, p. 442.>

Oroblanco
 

Roy,

It was a tough world back then.  If people were to survive, they needed to be cruel.  It worked the same for both sides.  Anytime such a system exists there will be those who fail to exercise their power in a way that will not get someone killed.  It worked the same for both sides.

Charges and counter charges were flying back and forth after the rebellion.  The governors, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, the Indians......you name it, they were all blaming someone else.  It seems likely that the society and times may have had something to do with the uprising.  I don't believe it can be laid on any single doorstep.

It is not so simple as you paint the picture.  The Jesuits only slowed  the inevitable end for the native population down a bit.  Those who assimilated came out best in the long run.  Those who didn't, are now begging for scraps on every street in Mexico.  In the best of worlds, it would be different.  Unfortunately, we don't live in the best of worlds.

Take care,

Joe 

Dear gollum;
You profess to having deeply researched the Jesuits, especially how they interacted with others in the Primeria Alta region. Fair enough, my friend, but perhaps it may behoove you to research the inner workings of the Roman Catholic and the responsibilities and duties of Her members.

You wrote:
Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.

Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).

My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.


First, the church adornments are not purchased by the parish priests, rather the adornments are funded 100% by the parish patrons. Always. The embellishment and maintanence of all parish churches relies wholly on it's congregation to provide forit . It's the priest's duty to inform the patrons when the monetary needs have been met and when they haven't. Also, if the congregation wishes to add something to the parish church, say a new stained glass window, bids are gathered and then funds are raised by the members of the congregation. I've personally been a part of many of these fund drives in the past, so I've a pretty fair idea about how they work, my friend.

The Jesuits didn't say to one another "Hey! We need to adorn this church! Let's grab some picks and shovels and dig up enough silver and gold to make this thang happen!" It doesn't work that way, although it'd be nice it did. No, what the Jesuits did was exactly the same as all other clergy have done since the beginning of the Christian church. They exhorted the members of the church to dig deep into their pockets and provide the necessary funding and/or materials and/or labor to meet the projected goals.

In other words, the adornments were procured thru licit and acceptable means. What happened to them after the Jesuits were expelled is anyone's guess. I harbor serious doubts that the Jesuits secreted them away somewhere, as when the Jesuits returned they had to start from scratch all over again. In other words, if they would have hidden the adornments, what would have been stopping the returning Jesuits from recovering them? Please remember the Order was suppressed but it was never dissolved, therefore it would have been quite simple to maintain the records of where the treasures lay hidden in the archives of their European monasteries until such time that they could return and recover them?

I tend to agree with Cactusjumper in that they were mostly likely robbed by the locals. It seems to be the most likely conclusion and the temptation must have been very strong indeed. Also, not so much as a chalice or candlestick has ever been recorded as being recovered to date, therefore it seems highly unlikely that the Jesuits managed to stash the treasures of their churches somewhere. Also, if they would have done so, they would have taken a huge risk as surely the incoming Franciscans and Dominicans would have used that action to levy further accusatons at them. The Jesuits weren't a bunch of 1gnorant European peasants who had just walked in from the cabbage fields, my friend. They knew the laws inside and out and they knew what the reprecusions would have been for an action such as that.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
I tend to agree with this statement:
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side.  "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana


The Spaniards should have just tried to completely extreminate the natives with gunpowder, whiskey and smallpox, and lacking that, offered the Indians the choice of living on a reservation or being executed. Oops, wait a sec. That's what our government did, wasn't it? It seems that Mr. Archibald has a very selective memory when it comes to the treatment of the indigenous peoples, doesn't he? He should look take a close look around his own backyard and see just how the North American Indians have thrived in Montana before he makes a statement such as that one.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[seems]

Lamar wrote

The Spaniards should have just tried to completely extreminate the natives with gunpowder, whiskey and smallpox, and lacking that, offered the Indians the choice of living on a reservation or being executed. Oops, wait a sec. That's what our government did, wasn't it? It seems that Mr. Archibald has a very selective memory when it comes to the treatment of the indigenous peoples, doesn't he? He should look take a close look around his own backyard and see just how the North American Indians have thrived in Montana before he makes a statement such as that one.

Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system?  We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher.  Lower birth rates can also be documented.  What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits?  The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government.  At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them.  (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)

Isn't it funny, that Jesuit Father DeSmet, whom courageously worked amongst the hostile and dangerous Plains tribes, should also have discovered a secret gold mine, the location of which he kept secret until his death?  We know so by his own personal letter written to his brother.  Some Jesuits were interested in the minerals of the country, though we can only guess their motives to be for the greater good, they were human beings.  I must respectfully disagree with mi amigo Cactusjumper about the Pima revolt, at least from the view of the Pimas involved, they had been mistreated by the Jesuit fathers.  I would also point out that the punishments meted out were more severe for Indios (as noted by De La Pérouse) than would be found in any European country.  To the Spanish and Jesuits the revolt must have seemed an unreasonable reaction, but it was bad enough to the Pimas to cause these peaceable folk to rise in rebellion and risk everything.

I must admit that I didn't even desire to get back into this, but like some others here it is irritating to have blanket denials of misconduct when we know differently.  Today the Society of Jesus denies ever having any mines and/or treasures in the American Southwest, but such denials have the effect of making the Society appear to be lying, when compared with the evidence, however thin.
Oroblanco 

Dear gollum;
You profess to having deeply researched the Jesuits, especially how they interacted with others in the Primeria Alta region. Fair enough, my friend, but perhaps it may behoove you to research the inner workings of the Roman Catholic and the responsibilities and duties of Her members.

You wrote:
Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.

Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).

My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.


First, the church adornments are not purchased by the parish priests, rather the adornments are funded 100% by the parish patrons. Always. The embellishment and maintanence of all parish churches relies wholly on it's congregation to provide forit . It's the priest's duty to inform the patrons when the monetary needs have been met and when they haven't. Also, if the congregation wishes to add something to the parish church, say a new stained glass window, bids are gathered and then funds are raised by the members of the congregation. I've personally been a part of many of these fund drives in the past, so I've a pretty fair idea about how they work, my friend.

The Jesuits didn't say to one another "Hey! We need to adorn this church! Let's grab some picks and shovels and dig up enough silver and gold to make this thang happen!" It doesn't work that way, although it'd be nice it did. No, what the Jesuits did was exactly the same as all other clergy have done since the beginning of the Christian church. They exhorted the members of the church to dig deep into their pockets and provide the necessary funding and/or materials and/or labor to meet the projected goals.

In other words, the adornments were procured thru licit and acceptable means. What happened to them after the Jesuits were expelled is anyone's guess. I harbor serious doubts that the Jesuits secreted them away somewhere, as when the Jesuits returned they had to start from scratch all over again. In other words, if they would have hidden the adornments, what would have been stopping the returning Jesuits from recovering them? Please remember the Order was suppressed but it was never dissolved, therefore it would have been quite simple to maintain the records of where the treasures lay hidden in the archives of their European monasteries until such time that they could return and recover them?

I tend to agree with Cactusjumper in that they were mostly likely robbed by the locals. It seems to be the most likely conclusion and the temptation must have been very strong indeed. Also, not so much as a chalice or candlestick has ever been recorded as being recovered to date, therefore it seems highly unlikely that the Jesuits managed to stash the treasures of their churches somewhere. Also, if they would have done so, they would have taken a huge risk as surely the incoming Franciscans and Dominicans would have used that action to levy further accusatons at them. The Jesuits weren't a bunch of 1gnorant European peasants who had just walked in from the cabbage fields, my friend. They knew the laws inside and out and they knew what the reprecusions would have been for an action such as that.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe if you read my post a little closer, you would see that you basically parroted what I said. I stated that the Jesuits paid for their adornments through commercial enterprises (agriculture and cattle ranching), bequeathments from dying patrons, bequeathments from Jesuit newbies, AND FROM TITHES. I thought that pretty much covered all legitimate forms of Jesuit Income. I just thought that I did miss one other form of legitimate income: stipends from the Spanish Government (even though they were not much, and payment was rarely made in a timely manner).

I don't claim to know everything about the Catholics (in general) or the Jesuits (specifically). What theories and beliefs I have (about their hidden wealth), are based solely on inconsistencies between their published manuscripts and written history. I tend to believe what the people who were there stated. More so, than those who came a couple of hundred years later, who had an agenda to push. In case you are wondering what I meant by that, someone else had stated a theory to me a while back, that I am agreeing with more and more: That Jesuit Historians' (like Father Polzer SJ) had an agenda that loomed over all their writings, that was to get Padre Kino Cannonized.

Best-Mike

There was an old rag still available for reading in the public archives in Phoenix back in the early eighties that I remember brushing through that held a page or two concerning the Pimas going into Santa Fe.  I believe the source of the information came from the Indios who claimed that there was a basement section of the mission in Santa Fe that held somewhere in the amount of 24,000 pounds? of gold ingots and much more silver.  Two weeks before the uprising, the monks gathered up all of this bullion as well as a large collection of adornments;  including a hollow life size staute of a Saint that was filled with gold dust.  All of these articles were loaded into ox carts and moved to a Kiva for safe keeping.  The last that was seen of this treasure and the monks was when they disappeared from sight as they journeyed West along the Black River from out of the Santa Fe area.  They were never seen nor heard from again.

It is also interesting that someone mentioned the name "Don Luis".  Also at the same point in time when some of my first dowsing and map work began in the field in Arizona, a spirit guide that I came to know for the several years that I was in the area, introduced himself to me as one "Don Luis".  Though I never saw him, his information of an automatic fashion, directed my willow and subconscious readings to numerous authentic sites both in Arizona and Utah.  He is the one who taught me about the map stone bread trail associated with each concealed portal originating as an Indian mine.  He left my presence permanently after a near death experience with a rather large and viscous female lioness that tried to jump me after walking a little to close to her two cubs as I passed a thicket on the trail back to the truck.  Working with him required no thinking on my part as it was as though I were being lead along in a state of half sleep, half awake;  my feet just seemed to know where to go and many things that came before me on the trail were as some sort of timeless memory.  One day I was hunting like anyone else and the next thing I knew I was walking straight to each Spanish marker every trip, every time.  I long as I didn't allow greed to come to mind, the spirit continued like there was something sacred about it all.  Don Luis was his name.  10 years it lasted.           Go figure.       

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system?  We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher.  Lower birth rates can also be documented.  What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits?  The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government.  At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them.  (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)


I deny nothing, my friend. Instead, what I tend to do is to allow history to speak for itself. Simply think of *integration* a bit and think of how many native Americans you happen to run across on a daily basis in North America and then think how many you happen to run across in Mexico, Central and South America, my friend. There honestly is no basis for comparison because Latin America is chockful of native Americans at virtually every level of society, whereas, even though the North Americindians culture has been somewhat preserved, albeit in a highly corrupted form, they are not truly a part of the mainstream society.

The conquest of the Americas was imminent and nothing or nobody could have halted the advance of other cultures and the only real question is, how well did our European ancestors assimilate the natives into our own culture in order to insure their continued existence. The Jesuits weren't overly concerned with preserving the natives ancestorial history, they were much more concerned with keeping the natives alive so they would not be faced with genocide from the secular colonists.

To put it bluntly, most colonists and settlers wanted to exterminate the native American culture and this is evidenced many, many times in the writings of the day. The Jesuits preserved the native Americans as a people and not so much as a culture. Of course the natives' own religious beliefs and deities had to go, there was simply no other way around that fact. It all stemmed from the belief system that the Western European society system was the best and that all others should either adapt to it or perish along the way. The Jesuits, knowing they could not fight the European settlers and stand a chance of winning, instead chose to assist the natives in becoming more Eurpeanized.

The Jesuits succeeded in their labors and this can evidenced in the survival of the native American peoples of today. Their cultures may have disappeared but their bloodlines have carried forward and it's my very humble opinion that we all owe the Jesuits a huge THANK YOU for their heroic efforts in this regard
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
I find it odd that Fr. DeSmet was ordered westwards from Missouri in 1845 AD by Bp. Rosati, only after Bp. Rosati had recieved many pleas, PLEAS mind you, for a *blackrobe* from the Nez Perce and the Flathead Indians. It would seem that the *blackrobes* were much more popular among the natives than some of our modern historical writers would like for us to believe, my friend. The natives knew back then that their only true hope for continued survival was to adapt to the missionary life, which was far better than the alternatives, those being starvation or getting shot.

Also, as a point of fact, Fr. DeSmet did not discover a gold mine, rather he discovered very rich gold deposits, the exact location of which he never devulged, and the reason he cited for refusing to divulge the location of the deposits was because he didn't wish for anyone *to disturb his children*, that being the Amerindians living in the Black Hills region of North Dakota. He spoke of the Black Hills deposits publicly only once in his lifetime, that being at a banquet which was given in his honor at St. Louis University, in St. Louis, Mo. (a Jesuit funded and run university, by the way) around 1866 AD. He took the secret with him to his grave. That was a very honorable man, in my very humble opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ladies & Gentlemen? No one is responding to my post in which I indicated involvement of the Jesuits in mining
 
Remember, these were NOT the Mission Jesuits, but a secret group, answerable only to Rome.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
I am sorry, my friend, but I must have overlooked your post regarding that issue. The reason why I feel unqualified to reply to it is because I do not believe that such a group of Jesuits ever existed.

First, the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal were the spiritual subjects of the Roman Catholic Church and as such, if the church needed financial support from these these kingdoms, the Vatican had to but ask. And so, stealing from the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal would have been paramount to stealing from themselves, my friend.

Next, the very logistics of such an endeavor would have been mind-boggling, even in those days. A great many people seem to think that the Vatican is the home of intrigue, but in truth the Vatican is naught but a huge sieve. Information of a sensitive nature does not stand the slightest chance of remaining a secret within the Vatican's walls. The reason for this lies in the tenants of the faith, that being, to tell the truth, always. It was because of secret rituals and doings that got the Templars dissolved and the Vatican has always insisted on transparency among Her members, and most assuredly among Her religious Orders.

Also, the Jesuits were not the most popular kids on the block, as far as the others Orders were concerned. All a member of the Domnicans or the Franciscans had to do was to smell a whiff of a conspiracy and it would have been shouted throughout the streets of Europe faster than one could utter "Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam". Even the Cardinals and the various Popes were not overly friendly to the Jesuits or their cause, as the Jesuits tended to stir up trouble and thus they were often looked at with some suspicion and even a bit of hostility at times.

Also, there exists no surviving evidence of this ever having occurred, nor can one draw any parallel lines from existing evidence to support this theory.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth]

Don Jose,

Perhaps the reason there has been no discussion about your "secret society" among the non-secret Jesuits in the New World, is because there are no facts to research.  That's the nature of such a group.......it's secret!

Because the evidence for Jesuit mining and treasure is so circumstantial and.....thin, something else is needed to explain the "invisible" hands that had to be working in the background.  The slightly understood "Laymen" working within the Society Of Jesus makes for the perfect fall guy(s).....as long as you don't dig too deeply into the details.

History, as it is being taught in America, is changing every day.  A long existing fable, that Americans purposely introduced disease into Native American Tribes, is being placed in school textbooks.....as fact.
There are letters, the originals still exist, which clearly expose the truth about this lie.  I have no doubt that many here believe the story.

There is no need to supply me with the sources and details, as I have read them.  I won't believe them a second time around either.  To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth.  While there are bad apples in every barrel, the Jesuits in the New World did more good than evil........much more.

Mange, in his diary, details the advancement of the natives in every aspect of what the Jesuit's were said to be teaching.  He was not alone in detailing that successful education.  "To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth."

On the other hand, you may all be correct.

Oops, I see I am just behind Lamar with my reply.  Please go back to the bottom of the previous page to read his reply.

Take care,

Joe

  

Gentlemen,

Here is a site related to fake gold bars:

http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.pdf

The Gold that Mike shows on his site, as well as here, was brought into this country by a Mexican, in an effort to sell it.  If it were authentic, it would be worth much more than the price of the gold.

Joe Ribaudo

Dear cactusjumper;
I tend to agree with the overall concensus that the bars which were reputed to have been a part of a Jesuit treasure cache were indeed fakes, most likely produced with the intention of defrauding some poor gullible buyers. The people who verify the authenticity of historical caches such as that one certainly know their business!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ladies & Gentlemen? No one is responding to my post in which I indicated involvement of the Jesuits in mining
 
Remember, these were NOT the Mission Jesuits, but a secret group, answerable only to Rome.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Oh they were real alright;  they are the very reason the mines are still hidden throughout the West and why you can't find them.  These were the hand picked prodigies of the Pope, having been raised in the monasteries of Spain and assigned specific commissions that concerned no one but the Pope and his political ties to numerous Kingdoms.  The butterball version you see is for public posterity and designed to keep the stupid, stupid.  Their silence was a requirement compared to agents in the field who are never acknowledged dead or alive. The topic here is gold and lots of it.  Secret assassins undermining evil worldwide.  They knew no barriers amongst men in the service of their one King the Pope;  representative of God himself.  This is why they were feared by all Royalty.     Masters.....

  Ok in reply sort of to post 521 above,Gollum , here is a section from a map showing the Martydom of Father Saeta, dated 1695, made by Father Kino. Useing a magniying glass I can determine that the lettering is quite different and distinct from   what I believe are modern letters  showing on your gold or silver ingot. True the ingot and map were not made by and inscribed by the same persons, but the lettering should be in the same time peroid, and very similar.    

Ladies & Gentlemen? No one is responding to my post in which I indicated involvement of the Jesuits in mining
 
Remember, these were NOT the Mission Jesuits, but a secret group, answerable only to Rome.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Oh they were real alright;  they are the very reason the mines are still hidden throughout the West and why you can't find them.  These were the hand picked prodigies of the Pope, having been raised in the monasteries of Spain and assigned specific commissions that concerned no one but the Pope and his political ties to numerous Kingdoms.  The butterball version you see is for public posterity and designed to keep the stupid, stupid.  Their silence was a requirement compared to agents in the field who are never acknowledged dead or alive. The topic here is gold and lots of it.  Secret assassins undermining evil worldwide.  They knew no barriers amongst men in the service of their one King the Pope;  representative of God himself.  This is why they were feared by all Royalty.     Masters.....

Mr. Fork,

You seem to be speaking with some authority on this subject.  Can you tell us your source for this knowledge?

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo