The Peralta Stones

Hi my friend  Gullum:   You lightly passed over the reason for the expulsion being because of the ´plot´.  This is ´precisely´ why the order was to be secretly implemented.  If they were involved in a plot, but no great overt act had yet taken place, you would want to catch ALL of the participants at once, since any survivors could then prematurely trigger the revolt, IF it had progressed far enough. Apparently it hadn´t.

As for simply expelling them for mining, that information and the mine locations could easily have been accomplished by the King´s spies who were everywhere.   They certainly had the resources, authority  and time to do so.

The Mission priests were not involved in the plot, also they were expendable in order to keep hidden the fact that the Jesuits had a secret line into the King´s quarters and privy councils.

You are also forgetting the testimony of my x assoc. who actually had an audience with the then no.2 of the Jesuit Heirachy in Rome, who when he was brazenly asked about it, smiled, and replied  ¨Yes, but we don´t do those types of things any more¨.

As for being expelled by other nations in other lands earlier, that is another story, and for another reason.  In fact it may actually have been the basic reason for developing the plot with the Dutch.  This would have left them a foot hold in Spanish North America, independent of Spain.

Much work remains to be done  on inaccessible fields in Rome, Belgium, and Dutch Royal Archives.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Mike, nice web page/ Just curious about the original stones on the bumper,
do you happen to know the size and approximate weight . Also where did get your smaller copies.  What do you think the holes in the stone represent/thanks in advance.

The larger stones are about 17 x 33 x 3 inches. Not sure of weight. The stones in my pics are actual size. They belong to a friend of mine though. They were cast from the originals and have some amazing details that you can only see at certain angles in the right light. Some of the icons on the stones have been mostly sanded away (on purpose) over the years to hide clues. They show up in my friend's castings.

Best-Mike

Hi my friend  Gullum:   You lightly passed over the reason for the expulsion being because of the ´plot´.  This is ´precisely´ why the order was to be secretly implemented.  If they were involved in a plot, but no great overt act had yet taken place, you would want to catch ALL of the participants at once, since any survivors could then prematurely trigger the revolt, IF it had progressed far enough. Apparently it hadn´t.

As for simply expelling them for mining, that information and the mine locations could easily have been accomplished by the King´s spies who were everywhere.   They certainly had the resources, authority  and time to do so.

The Mission priests were not involved in the plot, also they were expendable in order to keep hidden the fact that the Jesuits had a secret line into the King´s quarters and privy councils.

You are also forgetting the testimony of my x assoc. who actually had an audience with the then no.2 of the Jesuit Heirachy in Rome, who when he was brazenly asked about it, smiled, and replied  ¨Yes, but we don´t do those types of things any more¨.

As for being expelled by other nations in other lands earlier, that is another story, and for another reason.  In fact it may actually have been the basic reason for developing the plot with the Dutch.  This would have left them a foot hold in Spanish North America, independent of Spain.

Much work remains to be done  on inaccessible fields in Rome, Belgium, and Dutch Royal Archives.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Look Here Dean Hoser de la Munchkin,

That Jesuit-Dutch Relationship was only lightly covered because I have yet to find any documented evidence of such a plot. I believe your story, and I also think the idea is plausible. I just won't devote a lot of space to it yet. I am still waiting to hear back from Leiden University (Netherlands) History Dept. I have spoken to a couple of very eminent Jesuit Historians who have both denied ever hearing anything about that.

Best-Mike

Mike,

I am in complete agreement with you here.  There should be some real evidence of this plot......somewhere.  It's possible that the Jesuits would have buried their end of any documentation, but that does not account for the lack of historical documentation from other contemporaneous sources.

I have a source who is very qualified to give an opinion on this question.  I will ask her.

Take care,

Joe

Mike,

I am in complete agreement with you here.  There should be some real evidence of this plot......somewhere.  It's possible that the Jesuits would have buried their end of any documentation, but that does not account for the lack of historical documentation from other contemporaneous sources.

I have a source who is very qualified to give an opinion on this question.  I will ask her.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks Joe,

I seriously doubt that the Dutch would find any reason to lie about the subject, that's why I wrote directly to one of their most prestigious universities.

I will say that Sr. de la Munchkin is not the only person I have heard that story from.

Best-Mike

GOLLUM MIKE MCCHESNEY WROTE"""""After that, we can implant the 80 foot satellite dish in your anus!"""""""       MODS PLEASE BANN THIS GUY! GOLLUM MIKE MCCHESNEY

AAAAAWWWWWW. Poor widdle crackpot. Poooooooooooor widdle nutjob. Whats a matter? When someone responds to your request for violence, you get all defensive? Pooooooooooor widdle baby.

Mike

Relax  Mike, when the time is right --------!

I have only located 7 of the clandestine missions for shipping the metal from the Tayopa complex to Rome so far.  they stretch one days travel apart, to just below Matamorros.   I need an ultra light to finish the job, or a tremendously efficient  statellite connection, and, the patience of our Biblical JOB.

¿Heck, can you offer me any authentic data from the Jesuits themselves which ´proves that they were mining anywhere´, let alone in Tumacacori ?      They deny it flatly.  The fact that I have found, and own Tayopa, is another story.

Don´t forget that the Belgiums also had a late, unsuccessful  hand in the Tayopa story.

Keep it up, and you will have to walk to Tayopa, not ride a nice, comfortable mule.

Don Jose de La Mancha   (ya igerent southern Californian )

HOLA amigos,
Don Jose' out of curiosity have you ever considered comparing the Peralta stones with the sites in Mexico?  I wonder how the landmarks etc would line up? 
Roy

Roy,

Why confine your comparisons to the area around Tayopa?  Why not Brazil, Nevada or Alaska?

Just curious......

Take care,

Joe

Relax  Mike, when the time is right --------!

I have only located 7 of the clandestine missions for shipping the metal from the Tayopa complex to Rome so far.  they stretch one days travel apart, to just below Matamorros.   I need an ultra light to finish the job, or a tremendously efficient  statellite connection, and, the patience of our Biblical JOB.

¿Heck, can you offer me any authentic data from the Jesuits themselves which ´proves that they were mining anywhere´, let alone in Tumacacori ?      They deny it flatly.  The fact that I have found, and own Tayopa, is another story.

Don´t forget that the Belgiums also had a late, unsuccessful  hand in the Tayopa story.

Keep it up, and you will have to walk to Tayopa, not ride a nice, comfortable mule.

Don Jose de La Mancha   (ya igerent southern Californian )

I have another story regarding those Mission Waystations. These don't go to the Gulf of Mexico. They go to the Pacific to ship goodies via the Manila Galleons to Jesuit holdings in the Far East. I'll PM you in a bit.

Best-Mike

Roy,

Why confine your comparisons to the area around Tayopa?  Why not Brazil, Nevada or Alaska?

Just curious......

Take care,

Joe

Well AZ was long a part of MX, and there are other theories around the Peralta stones which are not all in the Superstitions.  Brazil was Portuguese territory so it seems fairly illogical to try to fit a set of stone maps found in AZ (or MX, as one version goes) to that location, Alaska likewise was not a Spanish territory but Russian, so also would be fairly illogical; Nevada however could be construed as once part of Mexico, what particular set of landmarks might fit there I could not propose.  Tayopa does have several landmarks and distinctive topography around it, I was curious if Don Jose had ever done such a comparison just for 'sheets -n- grins' so to speak. 

Sorry if my far-out theoretical question came across the wrong way.
Oroblanco

Roy,

As you well know, there was a strange relationship between the Russians and the Jesuits.  The Brazil connection speaks for itself.  If we make a slight regression back to the Stone Maps being Jesuit.......

Take care,

Joe

Cactusjumper wrote

there was a strange relationship between the Russians and the Jesuits

Actually I had not even considered that, and strange is a good way to put it.  There were Spanish explorers venturing north too, just I didn't think to make that connection.  Brazil too - I didn't even think of the Sacambaya mines which were supposed to be Jesuit, and again very distinctive topography there too.  Just exploring some alternative ideas, though I do agree the Superstitions are the best "fit" and most logical related to the Peralta stone maps, it is fun sometimes just playing around with wild ideas.
Roy

Don Jose,

[have only located 7 of the clandestine missions for shipping the metal from the Tayopa complex to Rome so far.  they stretch one days travel apart, to just below Matamorros.   I need an ultra light to finish the job, or a tremendously efficient  statellite connection, and, the patience of our Biblical JOB.]

How does one know that a mission was built and used for the purposes you cite?  Is there something special about these particular missions?  Is it possible they are not missions, and have another reason for existing?

Could they have been waystations for the Spanish miners, used for transporting their product to Spain?  If not, why not?  Why do you assume these building locations were "clandestine""

Thanks in advance,

Joe

I am kind of with Joe here. I don't believe that the missions themselves were "clandestine" but part of their purpose might have been.

Say a large hidden underground storage vault in a mission on the very edge of the Spanish Frontier.  I think Don Jose de la Munchkin now understands why I believe some of the things I do. Although circumstantial evidence is always only that. When there is a lot of it pointing in one direction, I logically look in that direction.

Best-Mike

LADIES & guys: First, I don´t believe that by any stretch of imagination, that the stones can be made to fit the Tayopa zone - sorry.

Second,  Gully, many were set up in areas where there were no converts to be had, nor good land for farming & ranching, ¿mining ? but curiously enough, one days loaded mule trip apart all the way to Matamorros  -  this hasn´t been verified  ´visually´ yet.  This is my next job..   Most so far loocated have had concealed underground chambers.   After reading some of my previous posts on this  --   ¿Your conclusions?

Beyond this questionable bit of data, I am starting to tread into still restricted areas, so will ´rely´ on the  5 th  .  NOT work on a 5th like Gully.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[NOT work on a 5th like Gully]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

NOT work on a 5th like Gully

HAY now sheesh amigo speaking for myself only here, but I have found that I do many things far better after ingesting copious amounts of la juice of la agave plant, fermented and distilled of course; this includes fighting better, ride better, driving better, looking better, seeing better heck with enough of it I am downright BULLETPROOF!     
Oroblanco

It's always the case, that when someone is blind drunk, they think no one else can see them either.

They don't call it ta kill ya for nothing.

Joe

[doesn't]

What?  You mean my invisibility ala Cuervo doesn't really work?  I thought that with at least eight shots, once you took off all your clothes it was "presto" instant invisibility.  I am glad you told me amigo, as I was planning to demonstrate it at the next Dutch hunters annual rendezvous.  Hoo boy that could have been bad.  

Roy,

I'm sure that Beth would probably confirm that your "instant invisibility" does work......at least partially.

Joe

 

Don Jose,

"The fact that I have found, and own Tayopa, is another story."

What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far?  Have any pictures from inside?  That would be interesting to see.  Will you be mining anytime soon?

Take care,

Joe

One tequila
Two tequila
Three tequila

FLOOR!

Then, just step on over him!!!   


B

Who IS that who said "don't you know sarcasm when you hear it" - I think it was Lucy, from Charlie Brown.   

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor?  Can you give me a little background/history on the plot? 

Thanks,

Joe

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor?  Can you give me a little background/history on the plot? 

Thanks,

Joe

Hey Joe,

While I have heard about it from more than one source, there is no documentary evidence to back it up.

The story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World. Raping and pillaging people and natural resources. They were supposed to have been working behind the scenes to hand over the New World to the Dutch, who would have been better overlords than the Spanish.

Like I said, I have written the University of Leiden (Netherlands) about the subject and am waiting for a response.

Best-Mike

Evening  Joe:  Gully wheezer posted --> there is no documentary evidence to back it up.
==============

Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?
******************************************************************************************************************

Gully wheezer  you posted -->  the story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World.
===============

Actually ORO provided the correct answer, they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world..
******************************************************************************************************************

Joe  you ask --->  What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far?  Have any pictures from inside?  That would be interesting to see.  Will you be mining anytime soon?

A) Nothing yet, but I am not pushing very hard, just setting things up.

B)  Tayopa is still completely closed up.  It will remain that way until both I, and the authorities are ready to move.  There will be no premature
activity.  Once I make a positive move, the entire  area will know and try for a piece of the pie. I have to be completely protected by then. A simple mining claim title isn´t sufficient with a treasure.

C)  I probably will never mine Tayopa, but will go after the three large deposits.


Don Jose de La Mancha

Thanks Mike.

I have seen the story in a number of places as well.  Each and every time, where they don't admit that the plot was nothing more than a rumor, the author has an axe to grind.....Jesuit wise.  It was a rumor to discredit the Jesuits, but the king himself gave it no credence.

In order to suggest that the Jesuits were involved in mining and hoarding vast treasures, you must first attack their character and historical record.  Any Jesuit historian who does not confess that the order was guilty, becomes a liar.  That means all of them.

IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity.  There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side.  No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad.

Take care,

Joe

Don Jose,

Thanks for your reply.

Sounds like they are waiting for you to.......expire.

Your comments on the Jesuit/Dutch plot, are typical of the story:

[Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?] and [they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world.]

Where is the evidence for either bit of conjecture?  All story and no substance.  My Superstition treasure story has more "evidence" to sink your historical teeth into than this rumor.

It seems difficult to prove.....either way.  That being said, I don't believe it should be presented as historical "fact".

Take care,

Joe

[odd]

HOLA Cactusjumper and everyone,

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor?  Can you give me a little background/history on the plot?  

Thanks,

Joe

As far as I know, no - no documentary evidence to support this "rumor".   I would not be too quick to dismiss it however, when you look at the historical background - it is clear that the Society of Jesus was on shaky ground in Spanish America by 1765, having seen them thrown out of all Portuguese dominions in '59 and all French dominions in 64-5 (it took a while for such a vast region so some were not expelled until '65) so it would be perfectly logical for someone in the higher ranks of the Order to be at least sounding out the possibilities with other powers.  We could also note that on their official suppression by the Pope, that Prussia and Russia became safe-havens for them, and consider that Prussia was very much Protestant and Russia really Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic - very odd places for Roman Catholic Jesuits to be 'hiding out' if you think about it.  

Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white" as in your expression of "good Jesuits, bad Jesuits" when this may not  be the most accurate way to describe the situation.  Who would ever accuse Father Kino of evil, for instance; on the other hand who would stand by every action of say Father Keller?  In an organization the size of the Society of Jesus, which certainly did get involved in politics in many lands (resulting in a series of expulsions) we ought not be surprised to find, even at quite high levels within the Order, some amount of "conspiracy" or political plotting even a plan to betray a whole colonial domain to a different nation.  The Society of Jesus and its members held loyalty to God and their leader far above  any petty state or monarchical family.  It has been repeatedly pointed out how Jesuit padres worked to protect their "flocks" of Amerindians against the "evil" Spaniards and Portuguese who sought to enslave and exploit them; would it be SO far-fetched to consider that some Jesuits may have looked to the Dutch as possibly LESS evil colonial powers?  I could be mis-interpreting how you are viewing things, if so then my apologies for making assumptions.

The most interesting 'leads' that I found concerning this plot were the relations between the Dutch and the Jesuits in the Far East, where the Dutch saw their national interests lay, far more so than in the Americas.  As I said, thus far I haven't found any document which would prove this plot, but it is interesting; at times these two parties were antagonistic toward each other, again at other times they appear to have been downright cordial.  It is also factual that Dutch pirates (or privateers, depending on the view) did operate in the 'Spanish lake' and even in the Sea of Cortez without any obvious port of call where they could safely land, buy provisions, get fresh water, make repairs etc; also these same Dutch pirates did raid Catholic missions along the coast, yet seem to have (mostly) missed hitting the Jesuit missions.  This activity of course is a century before our period we are discussing, but curious when we talk of a plot.

Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.  

If I do run across a document which would prove this plot to be factual, I will share it.    
Oroblanco

PS - <Danged brain fart again> whoops forgot to add, that this Dutch-Jesuit plot may well be linked to the popular uprisings in Spain itself in which the Jesuits were implicated.  If they were supporting a popular revolt against the King of Spain (not PROVEN of course) then it would not be a large step for them to be supportive of turning over the Spanish colonies to another state.

I suppose I could excuse this by claiming it was that darned advanced case of senility setting in, but some will point out that would be exaggerating the onset quite a bit.   
Oroblanco

Has there been any recent scientific examination of the stones to determine if they have been altered since their creation? 

Thanks Mike.

I have seen the story in a number of places as well.  Each and every time, where they don't admit that the plot was nothing more than a rumor, the author has an axe to grind.....Jesuit wise.  It was a rumor to discredit the Jesuits, but the king himself gave it no credence.

In order to suggest that the Jesuits were involved in mining and hoarding vast treasures, you must first attack their character and historical record.  Any Jesuit historian who does not confess that the order was guilty, becomes a liar.  That means all of them.

IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity.  There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side.  No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Your post isn't entirely correct. I have come, over the years, to the conclusion that the Jesuit Fathers' daily jobs in maintaining the missions was a job that took up most of their time.

I have said this time and again: If you take the time to research KNOWN history (things that are absolutely known for a fact to be true beyond any doubt), you can tell a lot about actual possibilities of the different unsubstantiated stories.

In that light, if you take the time to read all the accounts of everyday mission life on the frontier, you will see that the average Jesuit Father really didn't have the time to supervise or work at any mining activities. In Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain" the Fathers had very strenuous requirements to do EVERY day. Something like mining would have taken up much too much time. It would have also meant one of two things:

1. Many Jesuits (German Jesuits in particular) have openly admitted to committing the sin of breaking their vows of obedience by going against ecclesiastical precepts against mining or having either direct or indirect knowledge of mining.

2. Jesuit Hierarchy lied in all their dealing with the crown, when they made deals and agreed not to engage in mining activities in return for free reign in Pimeria Alta.

If you actually read books by and about Colonial Jesuit Life, you will find that Jesuits were masters at finding and exploiting loopholes in the rules they were obliged to live by. Back to my beliefs about Jesuit Mining:

The biggest loophole may have been left by the King of Spain who did not know the makeup of the Jesuit Order. While the Jesuit Fathers themselves may have been restricted from mining activities, there is a portion of the Order that was under no such restriction. I give you THE JESUIT COADJUTOR. The coadjutor IS, more or less, a civilian who has professed his allegiance to the Jesuit Order. These men are free to conduct businesses for profit. They could own mines. They could hold public office. They could be members of the military and police. They could do anything they wanted as long as they remembered they owed their allegiance to the Order of Jesus. Do you know why I think the King of Spain didn't know about the makeup of the Jesuit Order? Here's why: When the King had all the Jesuits arrested during the night of 25-26 June 1767, ONLY the Jesuit Fathers were arrested! Not one person who wasn't a Jesuit Father was arrested. If Charles III had been on the ball, he would have had spies watching the Order and learning about their true relationships with officials and military types they dealt with. He would have known that the Jesuit Order consisted of more than just the Fathers.

Best-Mike

Has there been any recent scientific examination of the stones to determine if they have been altered since their creation? 

AZDreamer,

That might be impossible. At least two of the stone maps are copies.

Best-Mike

[No doubt it existed]

Roy,

"Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white"..."

"IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity.  There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side.  No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad."

My argument has never been "black and white".  I believe I have always maintained that the Jesuits, in the final analysis, were just human.  I just don't believe they did anything that included extensive mining.  Mexico is my only frame of reference here.

[Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.]

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians.  Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist.  What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions.  I was once a believer as well.  I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical. 

Take care,

Joe

[No doubt it existed]

Roy,

"Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white"..."

"IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity.  There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side.  No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad."

My argument has never been "black and white".  I believe I have always maintained that the Jesuits, in the final analysis, were just human.  I just don't believe they did anything that included extensive mining.  Mexico is my only frame of reference here.

[Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.]

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians.  Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist.  What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions.  I was once a believer as well.  I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical.  

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

The best evidence that the Jesuits were up to something akin to what they were being accused of can only be found (so far for me) in a letter from the Marquis D'Ossun. After the Jesuit expulsion, he was granted an audience with King Charles III. In a letter to the French Crown he states that King Charles personally told him:

He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be prejudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, opened his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters)......

If those charges were indeed true, then it makes the story very believable. It also gives the reason for the Jesuit Suppression.

If you read about the Portuguese suppression of the Jesuits, you will find they were found to be doing the exact same thing; fomenting rebellion against the Crown. And while I haven't researched too deeply the Jesuit Suppression by the French, I believe you will find the same thing again.

..............and in England, there is always the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. This seems to have been a trend for the Order during the Colonial Period.

Best-Mike

Evening  Joe:  Gully wheezer posted --> there is no documentary evidence to back it up.
==============

Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?
******************************************************************************************************************

Gully wheezer  you posted -->  the story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World.
===============

Actually ORO provided the correct answer, they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world..
******************************************************************************************************************

Joe  you ask --->  What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far?  Have any pictures from inside?  That would be interesting to see.  Will you be mining anytime soon?

A) Nothing yet, but I am not pushing very hard, just setting things up.

B)  Tayopa is still completely closed up.  It will remain that way until both I, and the authorities are ready to move.  There will be no premature
activity.  Once I make a positive move, the entire  area will know and try for a piece of the pie. I have to be completely protected by then. A simple mining claim title isn´t sufficient with a treasure.

C)  I probably will never mine Tayopa, but will go after the three large deposits.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist]

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians.  Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist.  What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions.  I was once a believer as well.  I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical. 

I am not stating that NO incriminating documents dying the Dutch to the Jesuits exist, just that it is unlikely.  The class of documents you have just alluded to, those from the "enemies" of the Jesuits (they seem to have viewed anyone who opposed them in any way as "enemies") are the same type a Jesuit apologist would insist that we throw out because it IS from the their "enemies".  Kind of a catch-22, a great defense for a Jesuit apologist.  Many a criminal has tried a similar strategy in court, with not so good results.

You also have reached the conclusion that Mike and I are "predisposed" to Jesuit treasure beliefs, which is your own conclusion.  I never lock the door on historical questions, and for some time accepted and believed the Jesuit apologists version of events.  <Conrotto included a fair summation of their dismissal of any and all claims of ever being involved in any mines or treasures>  The "school of treasure hunting" is rather like a roller coaster, at least if a fellow keeps an open mind to possibilities and probabilities, and is willing to look at all the evidence he can find before jumping to any conclusions.  I only rejected  the Jesuit version on reviewing the records and finding new "tidbits" that should not be there if there never were any mines or treasures.

Jesuit instigators were implicated in uprisings in Japan, resulting in their being expelled from the empire of the Rising Sun.  Some of the padres managed to stay by dressing in disguises and sending Spanish sailors in their places, dressed in monks robes.  Even after being rounded up again and shipped out, some slipped back in.  This has little bearing on their activities in Mexico and Arizona, but is indicative of how they would operate under "hostile" conditions.  The Spanish king failed to include those "lay brothers" of which we have no hard numbers in Spanish America.  Those lay brothers are the men whom would have been in charge of mining, smelting and smuggling.  As far as I know, no diary has ever been found of one of these non-priest members of the Society of Jesus from the colonial frontier and made public. 

I don't know a good way to tie this back in to our subject matter, other than to say that IF the Peralta stones were made by Jesuits, then I would guess the makers would not have been priests but rather lay brothers and-or neophytes (native Amerindians studying to become priests under the padres at the various missions) as the neophytes in particular we are indebted to for preserving the archive of Jesuit records from frontier Sonora that we DO have.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

bump <just trying to keep this from sliding off the page>

 These Stones show maps of mines,dwellings,smelting area and a Storage vault, as well as a treasure that was hid under an overhanging cliff, that was full of church reliquaries. All these places are north of Weever's needle.

 The priest stone says, "Look for the map,Look for the land formation". The features in the map, can be seen in the land. All it is, is a big loop and ends up at a convergences of rock and two fault zones.

 The Horse map, is also made from what is seen in the land formation. The ring (circle inside of circle) above the hores's mane is the location of the Vault. The line coming from head nose area, is the location of the church treasure. The "5" with the 5 dots around it, is a land formation and the dots around it are peaks, The two rings below the line and above the river line, are mines.

 The Trail stones are maps, yes. but made in a way, that you need to use the bottom stone to see where to get to. The top Stone is a map that shows you what you will see around the area once you get there. The heart stones (two), each showing something else. (1) just shows the land formation that the mine is on. (2) showsall the formations,mines,dwellings,smelting area and the gold Cave. It shows a vault, 4 mines, a place where water flows over gold, a place of worship (land formation), a crater and other formations that are in that area.
 
 What has been shown as being the trail that is seen on the two stones of the heart map. IS INCORRECT. although it does bring you to a cave and signs of a dwelling and it does take the same course like the stone trial, it fails to show ALL the other markers that are on the stones.

 I have found ALL the markers, landformation, mines and dwellings...Everything.... And they are all in the exact place as shown on the Stones. So I know for a fact, that the other trail that was made to follow the stone maps, is WRONG!!!.

Good morning Bear:   Very Interesting, more.

Don Jose de La Mancha

OK.... you want more.......
 Let me show you how to follow the Priest map, which could very well be the LDM.
 First start at Weaver's needle. Head east and follow the canyon there, northward. Passing to the east then north of Black top Mesa. Just before you hit the next canyon you will be passing through the part of the canyon that is, the bottom of the priest's robe. Now heading north down the next canyon, you will come to the southern edge of Battleship Mountain. To your right as you head there, you will see the sleeve of the priest. Now cross to the other canyon that is to the east, once on this canyon, head south through the narrow winding cliffs, This part is the priest's Hat, then further south you will see the large cross that the priest is holding and just after making the turn around the hill that hold the cross, you will see Weaver's needle, this is the ring on the map after the curved line. Then the stone cross will be seen, just as you come to a side canyon on your right, then take that canyon and after turning up it and heading back northwards, you will once again see weaver's needle (second ring), on your west side, you will see a large heart shape made from the mountain's shape. On your east side, you will see a large "8" shape in the hill side, followed by a large "n" and then a "P" on the top of the last hill. By now, you should be looking north at the three red hills and beyond that, Four peaks make one....
 I have added a pic that may help you out.@©

Hi QBear:
 Although treasure hunting via Google Earth can be fun,nothing can compare with the experience of actually hiking the terrain and viewing/photographing the terrain that the sat views represent.Having been out there for the last six days in a row,with seven more days to go,I am doing so.Some sat views of objects on the ground are recognizable when viewed on site.Some are not.....
Here are a couple of pics taken this past week and some clipped bits of google earth views in the same area.The final pic is a boulder at the base of a rock face visible from the beginning of an old marked trail that ends at the heart seen in the sat view,which is a heart shaped mound of broken rock.The sat view of the heart,in the middle of the right hand lobe,features a "P".

Regards:SH

This prayer seems very appropriate.

Sorry about the duplications....I might delete and redo the post later......SH.

Sorry about the duplications....I might delete and redo the post later......SH.

   No sweat time you definately have plenty of time Why do they call Magic Johnson Magic Johnson

 Somehiker;-

 Yes; I know that google earth viewer is not presice, when it comes to actually being there. This is why I had to get help from phoenix, in order to help me in my quest. With google and my friend's help, I know I am right. Soon, I will prove to you all, without question. Till then, i will answer any questions or remarks that may arise from this.

 By the way.... Did you happen to go see the place that I mentioned on the priest map? No? Then don't knock it till you try it.

Yes; I know that google earth viewer is not presice, when it comes to actually being there.

 I see the spot marked on your pic, This is the place marked on the bottom part of the trail stones, this is the place between the numbers "3" and "18" on that stone, however, this is not the vault. This is just one of the mine areas, what about the others? have you found the rest? I HAVE!!!

 I will add, that your pic........shows the vault that is on the stone maps.   Do you see it?

Somehiker;-

 Yes; I know that google earth viewer is not presice, when it comes to actually being there. This is why I had to get help from phoenix, in order to help me in my quest. With google and my friend's help, I know I am right. Soon, I will prove to you all, without question. Till then, i will answer any questions or remarks that may arise from this.

 By the way.... Did you happen to go see the place that I mentioned on the priest map? No? Then don't knock it till you try it.

QBear:
  The best place to see the priest,exactly as depicted on the Priest Map,is from a place on the mountain across the historic canyon where the Priest Trail begins....at a Garmin gps altitude of 1847 feet ASL.Here is a photo,of his hat,shot last tuesday,from the center of the cross at 2119 ft. gps altitude.On Google Earth very little is visible,even when you know exactly where to look.Probably just a different priest than the one that you have discovered.
Regards:SH.

 Nice pic. Yes it is not the same priest ;)
 here is your pic with the 2-3 and 18 can be seen. take a look.

 i do think you should take a look at my priest's hat, if you would please.

QB,

Sorry, but what you are calling a "hat" is a natural stream that took countless years to form. While natural landmarks were used, you are missing ALL the rest of the engraving. In this case, it is just what we call "convenient erosion."

Best-Mike

Hi Mike:
  It's not a very good photo....but it's not a google earth view..heehee ...then again,I was doing a panoramic view at the time.Had no idea,till recently,that he might be hiding in plain sight.If you compare him with the image on the priest stone,it's pretty easy to sort it all out.
I should have a better one later this week,taken from the saddle that is closer and more to the right than where this was taken a couple of years ago.The face is visible upper left,the cross below and right,the cross in the rectangle next,and finally the wavy rockface edge that makes up the bottom of his robe.

Regards:SH.

 Gollum;

 Yes, your right, it's a stream. Like I keep telling you all, The Stone maps were made by using LANDFORMATIONS, not by marks carved on rocks.
 I am not well and before I die, I will find a partner to help me and if not, then I will give my information to the museum there in phoenix and after that happens, then none of you will be able to go there, cause I'm sure once this information becomes public knowledge, then the area will become protected and blocked off till all is removed from there.
 For your information. I had a person that said he would help me, So i gave him directions to one of the caves, he then went and found this cave to hold gold ingots, he sent me a letter saying thanks and telling me of what was found and that was the last i heard of him. So i Know for a fact that i know i'm right. I tried to show you all, what i have found, and none of you will even take the time to go look. I feel sorry for you all.
 I am a man of god, I don't lies or tell stories of things I know nothing about. I came here looking for help to show the world what i found. Instead of help, I get people trying to disprove me. Whats funny about it, is that they themselves don't know how to read the stones, but assume that I don't know how either. AGAIN I feel very sorry for you all.

 My real name is David William Muise, remember this name, I'm sure you will see it again in the near future.

These Stones show maps of mines,dwellings,smelting area and a Storage vault, as well as a treasure that was hid under an overhanging cliff, that was full of church reliquaries. All these places are north of Weever's needle.

 The priest stone says, "Look for the map,Look for the land formation". The features in the map, can be seen in the land. All it is, is a big loop and ends up at a convergences of rock and two fault zones.

 The Horse map, is also made from what is seen in the land formation. The ring (circle inside of circle) above the hores's mane is the location of the Vault. The line coming from head nose area, is the location of the church treasure. The "5" with the 5 dots around it, is a land formation and the dots around it are peaks, The two rings below the line and above the river line, are mines.

 The Trail stones are maps, yes. but made in a way, that you need to use the bottom stone to see where to get to. The top Stone is a map that shows you what you will see around the area once you get there. The heart stones (two), each showing something else. (1) just shows the land formation that the mine is on. (2) showsall the formations,mines,dwellings,smelting area and the gold Cave. It shows a vault, 4 mines, a place where water flows over gold, a place of worship (land formation), a crater and other formations that are in that area.
 
 What has been shown as being the trail that is seen on the two stones of the heart map. IS INCORRECT. although it does bring you to a cave and signs of a dwelling and it does take the same course like the stone trial, it fails to show ALL the other markers that are on the stones.

 I have found ALL the markers, landformation, mines and dwellings...Everything.... And they are all in the exact place as shown on the Stones. So I know for a fact, that the other trail that was made to follow the stone maps, is WRONG!!!.

Awesome !    Looks like you have it all figured out.............. Congratulations David!
Hope the person cut you in on his gold find.
 
GG~

Gollum;

 Yes, your right, it's a stream. Like I keep telling you all, The Stone maps were made by using LANDFORMATIONS, not by marks carved on rocks.
 I am not well and before I die, I will find a partner to help me and if not, then I will give my information to the museum there in phoenix and after that happens, then none of you will be able to go there, cause I'm sure once this information becomes public knowledge, then the area will become protected and blocked off till all is removed from there.
 For your information. I had a person that said he would help me, So i gave him directions to one of the caves, he then went and found this cave to hold gold ingots, he sent me a letter saying thanks and telling me of what was found and that was the last i heard of him. So i Know for a fact that i know i'm right. I tried to show you all, what i have found, and none of you will even take the time to go look. I feel sorry for you all.
 I am a man of god, I don't lies or tell stories of things I know nothing about. I came here looking for help to show the world what i found. Instead of help, I get people trying to disprove me. Whats funny about it, is that they themselves don't know how to read the stones, but assume that I don't know how either. AGAIN I feel very sorry for you all.

 My real name is David William Muise, remember this name, I'm sure you will see it again in the near future.

Interesting - so what exactly was found in the cave as it's not clear if there were gold ingots or that it was just a cave that ONCE STORED gold ingots.

You might understand many of the responses here if you were to put yourself in the shoes of a typical reader of the forums.  At least several times a year someone such as yourself appears on this forum alone (not to mention all the other sites that other people post on) to claim absolutely, without a doubt and 100% positive that they have discovered the LDM and/or other such treasures in the Superstition Mountains.  Each claimant shows a number of vague photos or google earth images with their own interpretation and expect everyone here to "oooh and ahhhh" over their ability to have solved the search for treasure. 

The funny thing is that each person's "solved" area is different from the next, and nobody ever has any gold or factual evidence to back up their claims.  There are avenues that can be taken to compare gold ore found with known (or at least strongly suspected) samples of Dutchman ore which would conclusively prove a match - to date either that's been done and kept quiet by the finder, or it's never been accomplished.

There are 2 ways the Lost Dutchman (or any other massive amount of gold ore or treasure) will ever be found in the Superstitions. 

1)  It will be found and illegally removed in way manner or another and outside of a few select folks, nobody will ever know.  This would be done by a treasure hunter motivated by $$.

2)  It will be found, photographs taken and "proven" beyond a shadow of a doubt by someone who's in it for the glory - they will likely gain little or no $$ from the venture, but their names will forever be associated with the discovery.

Good luck with whichever option you choose to take.

I'd suggest that as a man of God, you may want to look into a treasure trove permit, otherwise you and anyone else who removes something of value from within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness are breaking the law and would face some serious consequences.

Good Morning Paul,

Somehow, I don't imagine Mr. Muise has any worry's about obtaining a treasure trove permit.  You would first, at least, need to enter the dreaded Superstition Wilderness Area to get the proverbial ball rolling.

Perhaps you were hinting that David, as a Christian, might want to consider that he  "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

I could, of course, be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 So true;
 This treasure and the mines, are not mine to claim, nor do I want to claim any treasure that is there. This treasure belongs to the people of Phoenix, I don't want to take it from them, I just want the legend to become fact. The only thing I want to do is give the locations of all these mines and vaults, to someone that will do good with it, not so that they can horde it all for their own profit. This treasure belong in a museum, the mines should be opened and the public should have the right to visit and explore these mines as a tourist attraction. They are a huge part of phoenix's history and should be shared with them and for all the world to see. This is why I am looking for a partner to help record this find and to do it with the best interest of phoenix.
 The last thing I want, is someone to go to these locations and take all that is there, for their own profit. Many people died searching for these mines and vault, either they were the ones that owned the mines or they were looking for it. Too many deaths have come from the search of these places, most of the time, it's because the people that DO know where these places are and don't want to share this find with others, so they kill to keep this secret, Well it's time to stop this from continuing. The only way to make this stop, is to show everyone where they are, that way they can't keep everyone out, and they can no longer rob the treasures that these places hold, just for their own benefit.
I myself could go down to phoenix and take what I want from these places and leave without anyone knowing, but this is not what I want and It is not right for me or any other person to do. I heard that they want to shut down the Lost dutchman's trail, because of lack of funding. This find will stop this from happening, It will in fact, bring more people to the area.

I get so confused...

you say...

The last thing I want, is someone to go to these locations and take all that is there, for their own profit.

And yet a couple posts back you say this...

I had a person that said he would help me, So i gave him directions to one of the caves, he then went and found this cave to hold gold ingots, he sent me a letter saying thanks and telling me of what was found and that was the last i heard of him.

Then you also say...

I myself could go down to phoenix and take what I want from these places and leave without anyone knowing,

So what's stopping you from taking a camera or video camera to document the treasures in all of the locations you've discovered - not vague photos, but real honest to goodness high quality photos of the gold/treasures you believe are there?  From that point it should be quite simple to use those photos to convince the Forest Service, museums, local and/or national news organizations, etc... that you have REAL UNDISPUTABLE PROOF.

The really difficult part comes when you want to try to claim treasures - if all you want to do is prove them to be real and claim the credit for doing so, it seems as though there are alot of ways to do that fairly easily.

David,

Here's a thought.  Perhaps you can time your Grand Opening for July 4th., which is the same time as Santa Fe New Mexican's soiree.  I assume it will be an evening affair, as fireworks should be the order of the day.
This way you guys can kill two birds with one stone......so to speak.

In addition, you can combine the costs of hot-dogs and drinks, which will save you both money.  After all, when your motives are altruistic, as your's are, there is no reason either of you should suffer financially. 

I, regretfully, won't be able to attend, as I always wash my dog on that date.  She's quite old and really looks forward to her bath.

Thanks for giving us all a heads up on the great news.

Sincerely,

Joe Ribaudo

I have often thought about that moral dilemma if I came across the the "big one" would I tell the world and just donate it all to a museum. I have never heard of a treasure hunter that was just in it to help people and make the world a better place. I would be happy to donate an important find but first I want to be compensated for it, why would the people of Phoenix be entitled to anything, I dought that most of them have any idea of the history of the superstitions.
If I could get in and out with my pockets full, no one would ever know and I could live just a little easier, be able to make my truck payment, help my children  and maybe even by that big screen TV.
Profit is a good thing.
Bill           

Perhaps you could contact Geraldo Rivera to do the honors, he could use the redemption after the Chicago Al Capone Vault incident.

............Just Kidding,  

You could always contact the Arizona State Archaeologist with your story. Only you may first want to see if anything is still there.
After all, whom ever made the stone maps in the first place (or others) may have already taken the treasure years ago.

David, I see that your heart is in the right place and I wish you all the best.
GG~

Perhaps you could contact Geraldo Rivera to do the honors, he could use the redemption after the Chicago Al Capone Vault incident.

............Just Kidding, 

I have to admit Goodyguy - that's EXACTLY the first thing that popped into my head when I started trying to come up with scenarios as to who to contact with sensational news like this .

Bill96 - I don't know European laws, but I've read numerous accounts of folks finding "treasures" over there and the government paying them a fair $ as important historical items.  It seems to be sort of a win-win situation from what I've seen.

It appears to be 180 degrees different here in the U.S.A. - dunno if the same sort of thing would work here, but it seems like a reasonable idea.

David,

Here's a thought.  Perhaps you can time your Grand Opening for July 4th., which is the same time as Santa Fe New Mexican's soiree.  I assume it will be an evening affair, as fireworks should be the order of the day.
This way you guys can kill two birds with one stone......so to speak.

In addition, you can combine the costs of hot-dogs and drinks, which will save you both money.  After all, when your motives are altruistic, as your's are, there is no reason either of you should suffer financially. 

I, regretfully, won't be able to attend, as I always wash my dog on that date.  She's quite old and really looks forward to her bath.

Thanks for giving us all a heads up on the great news.

Sincerely,

Joe Ribaudo

I hadn't been following SFNM's posts much lately - for some reason I was thinking his "get together" in the Superstitions was supposed to be in April sometime.  I may be mistaken however as I didn't exactly put it on my calendar.

I just thought it would be nice to have one or two of you guys down there, to join forces with me. Since you go looking for these same mines yourselves anyways. I guess it's the adventure you're more interested in. My mistake to think that there was anyone around Phoenix, that would like to see the legend come to be a reality. Maybe put their name in the history books while their at it. Perhaps even give you the thrill of finding all the mines, just by following the directions that are right there in front of your faces. Even better then that, I can show you where they are all at and all you need to do is head right to them.
 I don't get you guys?!?!?   I offer you, a great opportunity and you don't even bother to open the door.

 I don't want the treasure or the mines, I just want phoenix to get, what many have sought after for years, some lost their lives in search of them.
 To prove the stones to be real. To be remembered that I did something Honorable and good for the people of Arizona. Not to be remembered as the guy that took it all to Canada and lived on high, off the treasure.

This legend is a big part of phoenix's history. many lives lost in trying to prove it's existence or just after the gold. It's time for this tale to become a legacy for phoenix, don't you think?

David,

"It's time for this tale to become a legacy for phoenix, don't you think?"

I'm glad you asked.  Can't speak for everyone else, but I would say NO!  There are Dutch Hunters who have spent sixty or seventy years in those mountains looking for the LDM.  They have spent their time and money without much return, money wise, to speak of.  Phoenix and Apache Junction have reaped the benefit of having those Dutch Hunter's dollars support their economy, over the years.

I have been going in those mountains for 52 years without making a dime for it.  For over thirty years I have been on the Stone Map Trail, and you want Phoenix to get whatever might be found in there?  I have spent thousands of dollars just at the OK Corral, and still have to pay for their books.
Don't reckon I owe anyone anything.

I know you're just having some fun here, boring time in school or something, but thought I would give you an answer anyway.  You will need to sharpen up your imagination a bit, or we will all loose interest in baiting you.  That's pretty hard to do for a guy who's never been in the mountains, but there is plenty of written material here for you to draw from.

Any idea how much money you have spent in our local economy, Dutchman wise? 

Joe Ribaudo
 
 
 

cactusjumper;
 I am sorry you spent so much time and money searching for this place. Spending all your free time in the Mountains in search of something you never found. You of all people should know what I'm trying to do here. It's time for these life long trips into the mountains in search of treasure but never finding it or those others that never come back out alive. Way too many deaths in those mountains. Time to show these places and stop these quests from taking up most of their lives. After being hidden for over a centry. This is the modern age, tourism is the money maker of today. Show these places to the world, let them all come to see the fabled mines of the Peralta Family.
 I am way past school years my friend, I hit 42 on January 16th. I have been across Canada many times, working and prospecting, I traveled from Crowsnest pass up to Fort MacMurrey working for various companies.
 I do believe that I said that I never have been to Arizona, so the answer to your question is $0. If you don't mind me saying, I don't see how this matters.
 I didn't put all this on this forum, just for fun, but if you think that you know better, then I would suggest that you don't bother replying to this post. I will stand firm to the locations of all these places. There is someone out there that will hear my call, I just need to have patience.

Thunken and listening.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I agree with Joe. I think Quinan should time his Grande Expose` to coincide with Kemm's Unveiling. I could make a call and get The Jim Rose Circus Sideshow to put in an appearance.  Maybe even get Cirque Du Soleil in on the action! A FUN TIME FOR ALL!

Best-Mike

THE DATE:  Is supposed to be April 20th.

B

[greed]

cactusjumper;
 I am sorry you spent so much time and money searching for this place. Spending all your free time in the Mountains in search of something you never found. You of all people should know what I'm trying to do here. It's time for these life long trips into the mountains in search of treasure but never finding it or those others that never come back out alive. Way too many deaths in those mountains. Time to show these places and stop these quests from taking up most of their lives. After being hidden for over a centry. This is the modern age, tourism is the money maker of today. Show these places to the world, let them all come to see the fabled mines of the Peralta Family.
 I am way past school years my friend, I hit 42 on January 16th. I have been across Canada many times, working and prospecting, I traveled from Crowsnest pass up to Fort MacMurrey working for various companies.
 I do believe that I said that I never have been to Arizona, so the answer to your question is $0. If you don't mind me saying, I don't see how this matters.
 I didn't put all this on this forum, just for fun, but if you think that you know better, then I would suggest that you don't bother replying to this post. I will stand firm to the locations of all these places. There is someone out there that will hear my call, I just need to have patience.

Hola amigos,
I am not intending to "attack" you Quinan Bear, just that it seems to me that you are not a treasure hunter.  It is not about getting rich.  It is the search, the quest, and the adventures this leads you into.  If you remove the possible large financial gains from making a big discovery, then the whole exercise is futile.  I doubt very highly that most of the Dutch hunters you feel sorry for, for their having spent time, money and efforts in their search, would think that a moment of that time or one cent of the money was ever really WASTED.  A non-treasure hunter doesn't realize that even finding NOTHING is in fact making progress towards the goal of finding that treasure, in being able to rule out some place. 

I see this attitude fairly often, and it strikes me as a peculiar misconception among the common folks about treasure hunting and treasure hunters.  If you have never gone on a hunt for treasure, you can't understand what it is all about.  It is about that near-miss when a coiled rattler you didn't see just punctured your pantleg but missed your hide, or that beautiful solitude you can only find in the wildest places, or even the hot campfire coffee and bacon sizzling in the pan as the Sun makes his appearance for another day in the desert (or the northlands) and the howls of the wolves & coyotes that serenade you at night.  There is very much more to it than just running around thinking of getting rich quick.  In fact, for anyone who thinks that is what it is all about - greed - I invite you to get a good, sharp number 2 shovel and a pick you can handle, and we will soon see if you think that is what it is about after a couple of weeks time out treasure hunting. 

Besides, the gold and silver has real value and to get it into circulation would be good for the person who finds it, for those he buys things from and hires to improve his home, maybe get a new pickup, heck even a new pair of cowboy boots will mean more wages for the person making them.  It does no good for anyone to sit in the ground, slowly but surely dissolving into the environment, and even less good to be locked away in the basement of some museum where no one but the rare archaeologist will ever see it.  So I must agree with our amigo Cactusjumper, the treasure certainly doesn't belong to the citizens of Phoenix (after all, many of those who died in the quest were not even temporary residents there) nor any other group or person whom has not contributed a moment of time or a thin dime towards the search to find it.  Treasure belongs to him who finds it, this has been common law for centuries despite modern attempts to erase it, it is the just law of the land.

The search for lost treasure is a type of experience which is in itself, a type of treasure, and a type which you can literally "take with you" and it can never be taken away from you.  Quinan Bear I hope you will make the trip to Phoenix (Apache Junction) and take yourself up to check out the very sites you have pin-pointed.  Whether it turns out to be treasure or just pretty scenery, I will bet a silver dollar you will never regret having done it.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope I did not offend anyone and if so my apologies for no offense was intended.  I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,
I am so glad to see you back old friend.
I find I must agree with your thoughts. You guys have made me go back in time so many times it is almost like we have done this together.But the friends we make along the way have made the difference. I will have been at this game for 40 years this year and find a fine bit of reminscing quite often eases the aches.

There are animals that grow so used to you being in a given area that they actually consider you part of the group.
I have some Desert Bighorn Sheep that stay close and even investgate with me. The ewes bring the lambs down to show them off.. I considder them friends. A true friend is a treasure.

Gold and silver are just a bonus when the treasure finds you

Roy,

You have said what I was thinking but not going to write, only much more eloquently.  When someone says they feel sorry for me over the time I have spent looking for something I never found, I realize they have no idea what I was looking for......or finding.  A good treasure hunter needs the soul of a poet and the heart of a hopeless romantic.  With those gifts, he will find all that he seeks.

Thom,

Those pictures are a wonderful reminder of what we all live for.  One of the treasures we are all looking for.  They are seldom seen by those in a hurry.

Many thanks to you both, and Mike.

I was glad to see Roy posting again.  We were getting worried.

Take care,

Joe

 I know all about the thrill of the adventure and the beauty of nature. I also know, that if it.s not me that will reveal these locations, someone else will.
 I'm not stopping you from your treasure hunting, I was just trying to shed light on a tale that has been going for over 150 years. I see that your not interested in the truth. You just like to go on about your adventures and finds, hoping that one day you would find "the big one". best of hunting to you.

 Like I said before, I know I'm right. If you don't believe me, then don't. No sweat off my back but don't try to turn this into a joke, just because you would rather debunk the idea and do whatever you can to try to get me or others that do believe, to not go looking for this treasure. All so that you yourselves could be left alone to find this treasure and keep it for yourselves (typical Americans).
 
 You all talk like you know better. Have any of you found any of these mines? have you found the Vault? You keep dreaming about it. once I give this information to the government, they will take the time to go look, they Will find what it is I have been trying to show you guys. They will go to each and every place that I will tell them to go and then they will take what is there and they will surely make these areas "off limits" to you all. After that, the area will never be the same, you will all lose the opportunity to go treasure hunting in these areas.

 I came to you with the best of intensions, a kind hearted offer and offered you all, friendship. Instead of getting a warm welcome I got teased, mocked and laughed at. Well the jokes on you.
 For those of you that do hear me and think that I am right. Here is one place to go to, to find one of the mines in the area. once in the area, just look for a clump of trees in a ravine that head up the hill to the east, the mine is in these trees, just at the top of the tree line.

I just thought it would be nice to have one or two of you guys down there, to join forces with me. Since you go looking for these same mines yourselves anyways. I guess it's the adventure you're more interested in. My mistake to think that there was anyone around Phoenix, that would like to see the legend come to be a reality. Maybe put their name in the history books while their at it. Perhaps even give you the thrill of finding all the mines, just by following the directions that are right there in front of your faces. Even better then that, I can show you where they are all at and all you need to do is head right to them.
 I don't get you guys?!?!?   I offer you, a great opportunity and you don't even bother to open the door.

 I don't want the treasure or the mines, I just want phoenix to get, what many have sought after for years, some lost their lives in search of them.
 To prove the stones to be real. To be remembered that I did something Honorable and good for the people of Arizona. Not to be remembered as the guy that took it all to Canada and lived on high, off the treasure.

This legend is a big part of phoenix's history. many lives lost in trying to prove it's existence or just after the gold. It's time for this tale to become a legacy for phoenix, don't you think?

Dave, I thrive on the thrill of the hunt, the research, the preparation, the hiking, the camping, just being on the trail of solving an elusive mystery is captivating and exciting.  I am one of the few who are not in it so much for the money as for the thrill of the adventure itself.  

Actually anything I derive after covering expenses goes to Charity ( a promise I made to myself years ago after being on the receiving end of a charity that changed my life.) Of course most of the time I don't cover expenses. But the times that I do come out ahead and am able to help make a dieing child's last wish come true is an overwhelming reward that keeps me keeping on.

Right now I am unable to join forces with you, but could think of nothing I would rather do if my present situation wasn't preventing it.
I sincerely hope that you find a worthy partner(s) to assist you in your honorable endeavor.

May all your troubles be small and your treasures great!

Sincerely,
GG~


Keep your cool and wait for the right partner. Try not to get discouraged by the doubters.

Any reason you don't want to address the comments/questions I put to you in this post?

I get so confused...

you say...

The last thing I want, is someone to go to these locations and take all that is there, for their own profit.

And yet a couple posts back you say this...

I had a person that said he would help me, So i gave him directions to one of the caves, he then went and found this cave to hold gold ingots, he sent me a letter saying thanks and telling me of what was found and that was the last i heard of him.

Then you also say...

I myself could go down to phoenix and take what I want from these places and leave without anyone knowing,

So what's stopping you from taking a camera or video camera to document the treasures in all of the locations you've discovered - not vague photos, but real honest to goodness high quality photos of the gold/treasures you believe are there?  From that point it should be quite simple to use those photos to convince the Forest Service, museums, local and/or national news organizations, etc... that you have REAL UNDISPUTABLE PROOF.

The really difficult part comes when you want to try to claim treasures - if all you want to do is prove them to be real and claim the credit for doing so, it seems as though there are alot of ways to do that fairly easily.

For what it's worth, I live 2700 miles away from the Superstitions, so I'm not available to help you out - even if I chose to.  If I lived in the area and had time, I would give you the benefit of the doubt and as long as it didn't prove to be hazardous to life or limb I'd check out a couple of your theories for you.

Once again however, you currently fall into the same category of the many other folks who've come on these forums claiming the EXACT same things over the years with no proof of anything.  How someone can make claims like that and then be so incredulous when everyone doesn't rush to bow down to them and jump at the opportunity to help is beyond me.  There are SO MANY different avenues one could take to truly prove something like this beyond the shadow of a doubt, and yet none of those avenues are ever taken.

Best of luck to you - I'll be the first to tip my hat if you've discovered anything more than a number of the already multitude of prospect holes dug out there over the years.

GoodyGuy;
 
 I thank you for your kind words and don't worry, I will hold out for that partner/s because I believe in what I'm doing.
 I am a true man of nature, I know how to read the land to get to my destination. I was a trapper when I was younger, my father started taking me when I was 8. He showed me how the trees would change when snow covered them and how to look at the big picture to see the land without the trees. For 13 years I would travel the woods, trapping from November till February. I have seen the beauty and enjoyed the wilderness. I have prospected this land since I was 15 and know the formation of the bedrock with it's faults in many areas around these parts as well as many in Alberta while I was up there.
 Look at this as a way to improve the trails and lands around the Superstitions. You can still take your trips into the wild beauty of the mountains. This way, if these places are known, they can be used to protect them and to give people the chance to see the mines,dwelling,smelter and vault of The Peralta Family. You would start at the place that shows you all that is on the Stone maps, from there you would travel the journey marked on the stone and arrive at the mine and do this with your family and friends with less effort then what your doing now. If needed, the some mines could be worked to pay for expences, while others opened to the public to visit. This way the land will be protected and the economy will benefit.  
 
 One Point that I never seen anyone bring up is... The Apache saw this place as secret burial sites... They killed to save their ancester's resting place from being disturbed. These places should be marked as well, so that they may rest in peace. There is more to these mountains then most people realise, I think the apaches were right to try and keep others out, but it will never be . The best they can do is show people where these burial sites are so that they will not be disturbed.

Who ever said it was an Apache Burial Site?

The place is sacred to the Apache because it belongs to their Gods. They likely thought that because of all the strange booming sounds coming from somewhere inside the range. When they couldn't identify what was making the booming sounds, they assumed it must have been the "Thunder Gods."

Best-Mike

Mike,

There was not much in the Apache physical world that was not considered "sacred".  The Gan were not considered to live in only one mountain range, but seemed to be in them all.  For anyone interested in the Apache spiritual culture, I would highly recommend Keith Basso's "Wisdom Sits in Places: Landscape and Language Among the Western Apache".

You can't read :read2:the Apache understanding into your consciousness, but Basso gives you a clear path to a better understanding of their ways and beliefs. 

Take care,

Joe

I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there are numerous specific areas in the Superstitions that are sacred to various Native American tribes.  It's not at all difficult to believe there may be burial sites, sites of important individual or group accomplishments, etc... hidden never to be discovered.

Thom,

Think I posted this picture before, but I never get tired of this kind of meeting:



Perhaps he was just too young to be afraid.

Take care,

Joe

Quinan Bear, Ladies, the few gentlemen that might frequent this room, along with the other bums.  I have hesitated entering into this conversation for many reasons, not the least is that I have never looked for the LDM, and except for flying over it once in  Stearman, I Have never visited it, or the area, let alone on foot.

However, I have had a similar experience.  We, in here, while tracing the migration of the Aztecs, found the location of Atlantis. Like you, we used  Google sat. services.   It is just about where ancient legend places it.  It was posted in here, but, except for a very few posts, it has not even been acknowledged.  

I am a duly elected member of the 'Explorers Club',  I submitted the data to their forum, and to date, no-one has seen fit to even ask me any questions.      www.explorers.org

I frankly put it down to being 'jaded', ho hum!    With so many places in the entire world having been reported as the actual location of Atlantis, the few people with perhaps a 1/2 interest,  are naturally, quite sceptical when another site is advanced.  So they ask questions, and more questions which probably cannot be answered without physical  proof, so they soon start questioning the source of the data, in this case you.

Unfortunately, we all react negatively / defensively when we, and our motives, are questioned which in turn leads to a further distancing.

I can see no differences between the Atlantis report, and your post of having solved the LDM puzzle, both are presently without viable proof.  They both require putting the reader into the orig. viewers point of view.  As you know, this opens a a new can of fish - as a  crude example look at the politics in Canada  -  forget the US - it is almost beyond reasonable / logical explanation, mostly emotionable.
 
Then to throw in the non profit or recouping of expenses, or even supposedly giving it all to a city, most of whose residents  have arrived within the past 20 years, and you have lost many more.

Personally, I 'do' know what many in here feel, in the end the successful conclusion of a search is almost reward enough.  There are many and possibly cross confusing reasons for this, however to just give it to people that probably have never looked for the LDM, knew of it's existence, or even cared, sits  badly.

Then again, from personal experience, many feel cheated in a distant way by not having found it  themselves and subconsciously show it in their posts to you.  In my case I had extensive correspondence with a gentleman in the UK .   The moment that he found out that I had already found our mutual target, all correspondence ceased immediately. To this day, despite numerous attempts, he will not talk to me.  I can definitely understand this.

Fortunately the posters in here are above this, stillll.

So it is with the LDM, the attitude is     "not again"?     sigh.   Can you blame them??

So just relax my friend, and if you feel up to it, post the data piece by piece, copyrighted - ©@ -  of course.  

You will really find that most in here are quite reasonable people, that I enjoy calling  "my friends", as you wll also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Real de Tayopa;

 Thank you Tayopa.
 Did you happen to visit the Indian tank that I posted for the location of the mine that the Jesuits had blown the above cliffs to cover its entrance? It would be nice if that treasure could be dug up to show proof of its existance.
 I was always told to stand firm in what you know to be right and that is exactly what I plan to do. Many people have many opinions, I must say from reading up on what you post and your replies, that you have my respect Sir. I know that my understanding of how people thought back then, is different then what others think, but is it too wrong to think they I have a solution that no other thought of and that it may be the right solution to solving the Stones. This is what their affraid of. I said it once and I'll say it again, My name is David William Muise and you will come to know this name for what I will show the world...

Quinn,
Here is another thought, I think people would have a lot more respect for you and your claims if you were actually out doing some leg work. At this point your are just a guy in front of a computer claiming to have solved some of the biggest mysteries in the southwest without ever leaving home and you are dismayed that no one will take you seriousley. If Mel Fischer had just sat home and simply tried to tell everyone where one of the greatest ship wrecks of all time was because he had located it on google earth, it may never have been found. Mel got respect because he got out and made the search himself. If you are not willing to make a minimal effort youself for something that you are so convinced is true I do not think you will get much of a following even if you are right.         

Bill 

[any]

Bill,

It's really more than that.  It's amazing how many of these (I have found exactly where everything is) folks sound like the exact same person, only using another identity.  What they also have in common, is no real time in the Superstitions.

Something they all fail to recognize is that we have been all over there "find" or know people who have.  In this case, we are talking about Clay Worst, and I doubt David has any idea who that is, or his history in the mountains.

Since he has no problem showing everyone exactly where his "find" is, maybe he should show us a topographic map with the Stone Maps laid over it, like I have done.  Showing the correlation between the two maps will likely give him a little more respect, and possibly bring him a partner.

So far, the only person I have ever seen do that is.......me.   It's no trick to find a hat here, the cross there and other parts of the maps in any mountainous terrain.  The trick is to find them in the correct sequence, matching the entire map to the land and in the correct spatial perspective.

How do you find a "vault" with a Google satellite picture?  These guys have no idea how ridiculous their claims sound to those who are familiar with the mountains.  If they spent some time in there, they might.

In the past, we have humored these guys for much too long.  Bowman carried on for many months getting farther out with each passing day.  It's something to do while things are slow, but almost no one takes them seriously. 

Take care,

Joe

 I believe I did in fact, show you an area that did match that of the priest stone, I even pointed out where the mine was. Now I'm sure you didn't bother to go out there and see for yourself, So how could YOU be so sure that I'm wrong.
 Yes, I have never been there personaly, but there are other ways to see what is out there, other then actualy going, such as photos and maps of various types like, geographical, magnatomic, topographical and lets not for get Google earth viewer. I studied what I needed to and it didn't come from a book that was writen by a guy that never found what is it he writes about.

 I could show you the true location of where you need to be to see the entire map that is on the stone and exactly as it is on the stone, with all the markers as they are seen. Why should I ? Why should I give you this, when I have given you the location one of the mines and you laugh ? Sorry, but a kind person that show interest will be given this information and it's not you.

Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?

David,

I thought we were done but there is always some hope that, assuming this is not just you joking, something will get through to you.  I didn't really expect you to get what I and others were saying, and you didn't disappoint me.

You are coming here, among people who have have not just been in the Superstitions, but have soaked her in through our pores.  A number of us have sat by a lonely campfire with no company but the coyote choir and, for me, the ghosts of my friends, ancestors and those who's stories I know so well.

Now comes David, who tries to tell us he knows how we all feel about our mountains, comparing them to the great Canadian wilderness.
Having hiked and hunted in the great forests of Colorado, Wyoming and Alaska, I can't say they hold a piece of my soul like the Superstitions.  Having never been there, you can't imagine what I mean.  No doubt you have the same feelings for your mountains, but we are not telling you we know more about them than you do.......based totally on satellite pictures and maps.

You are going to need a great deal more than that to convince us that this is more than another wanna-be having a good time.  You have been given as fair a shake as the "evidence" you have presented deserves.  You are obviously looking for agreement here, and we are all looking for something we can agree with.

Some people need to be slapped with reality and truth early on.  If you actually believe what you are posting, you are one of those people.

What is there in this picture that convinces you that you are looking at a mine?



Joe Ribaudo

Salvor6,

"Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?"

Until Summer hits Arizona, things slow down on the forums.  Boredom sets in, and those of us who can no longer get into the mountains, speaking only for myself, get bored with the lack of Dutch Talk.

I have other reasons for talking to folks like David.  Don't want him to start taking himself too seriously
and doing something stupid, like going into the Superstitions by himself.  Big heads are a dangerous load to pack into those mountains.

Take care,

Joe

[the lost Lemon mine?]

Hola amigos,
This is a VERY long reply so I must beg your indulgence.

Thank you Thom, Joe and everyone for the concern and kind words.  I believe that many of us here are 'sons of the same father' and cut from the same cloth.   There is a connection that never goes away nor even dims with time.  I am sorry for not keeping in touch better, just been rather busy recently.  I will try to stay in touch better, and you know that if there really were a problem Beth would sure let you know.   Now back to our subject matter.

Quinan Bear wrote

I know all about the thrill of the adventure and the beauty of nature. I also know, that if it.s not me that will reveal these locations, someone else will.
I'm not stopping you from your treasure hunting, I was just trying to shed light on a tale that has been going for over 150 years. I see that your not interested in the truth. You just like to go on about your adventures and finds, hoping that one day you would find "the big one". best of hunting to you.

Like I said before, I know I'm right. If you don't believe me, then don't. No sweat off my back but don't try to turn this into a joke, just because you would rather debunk the idea and do whatever you can to try to get me or others that do believe, to not go looking for this treasure. All so that you yourselves could be left alone to find this treasure and keep it for yourselves (typical Americans).

You all talk like you know better. Have any of you found any of these mines? have you found the Vault? You keep dreaming about it. once I give this information to the government, they will take the time to go look, they Will find what it is I have been trying to show you guys. They will go to each and every place that I will tell them to go and then they will take what is there and they will surely make these areas "off limits" to you all. After that, the area will never be the same, you will all lose the opportunity to go treasure hunting in these areas.

I came to you with the best of intensions, a kind hearted offer and offered you all, friendship. Instead of getting a warm welcome I got teased, mocked and laughed at. Well the jokes on you.
For those of you that do hear me and think that I am right. Here is one place to go to, to find one of the mines in the area. once in the area, just look for a clump of trees in a ravine that head up the hill to the east, the mine is in these trees, just at the top of the tree line.

Hola amigo David <Quinan Bear>,
How would you take it, if I were to show you some satellite images and tell you this is exactly, precisely the location of the lost Lemon mine?  Would you believe me?  Would you fuel up your outfit and head for the mountains?  Your attitude shows a remarkable lack of understanding of how your statements come across.  This seems to be a pattern too - for as has been mentioned, you are not exactly the first person to start posting statements and satellite photos claiming to have found the LDM and coincidentally have worked out the Peralta stones.  Like several of your predecessors, you act insulted and affronted that so few of your friends here have NOT immediately started congratulating you and gone packing up to see those sites.   

You have said you were a trapper as a boy; so was I.  You mentioned that you have gone prospecting all over Canada; well I can't say ALL over Canada but a fair portion of the Yukon, Ontario and even a bit in BC and Alberta, where I could not legally file a mining claim if I did make a find but sometimes when you see streaks of black sands the legalities of the matter grow fuzzy for a real prospector.  Are you aware that some folks feel sorry for you, as a prospector, since you waste your life tramping over the mountains and soaking in ice-cold streams panning for gold?  They figure that you must be driven solely by greed, that you only wish to get rich quick.  Are you crestfallen if someone else finds a good mineral deposit, right in the same general area where you have gone but found nothing worth bothering with?  Do you see what I am getting at here?

I for one would absolutely LOVE to see someone, anyone in fact, find the Lost Dutchman gold mine if only to be able to rub the noses of the naysayers in it - for there are plenty of folks who say it never existed.  I am not buying it when someone tells me he (or she) has found it, but has not even a speck of gold to show for it - for remember, it is a GOLD MINE.  The "Vault" of treasure should be easy to prove up with photos.  How exactly does a person see a vault, which would be underground, from a satellite image?  Even if you could see an outline of a square or rectangle, which is possibly indicating some kind of underground room - how would you know it is a treasure vault and not just an old outhouse pit? 

I really hope you will make the trip and go see for yourself whether your sites are what you say they are or not.  I doubt that you will bother to make the effort, and will likely respond by making some more deprecating remarks about "us" treasure hunters and suggesting that we live in a dream world rather than run the risk of finding out your theories are wrong. 

I have one more question for you amigo and will not bother you further - do you suppose that the Lost Dutchman/Peralta is the only lost treasure or lost mine that "greedy" treasure hunters search for?  It is arguably the most famous or infamous, but hardly the only one.  If it were found this moment, and tourists were to then start having guided held-by-the-hand trips to go and see it, do you suppose that treasure hunters would then have nothing  left to search for, and by extension, no reason to even BE a treasure hunter any more?   There are many, many more lost treasures for us to seek amigo, more than a non-treasure hunter could even believe.  Just within Arizona, are over 300 lost mines and ore ledges which have never been rediscovered, literally thousands of them scattered all over the western US, Canada and Mexico; as for treasures the list is astounding - if I were to try to list them all here it would take me days and days to get it done and I am a fairly fast typer.    You may choose to disbelieve this or think I am just blowing smoke - but in a fair percentage of the lost mines (for example) there are recorded assays, sales of gold or silver receipts, eyewitnesses who saw and/or handled the ores or placer gold, and newspaper accounts.  I am going to have to do up a "photo essay" to demonstrate just how easily such a thing as a gold or silver mine can be LOST - and as a prospector you should appreciate it.  Besides, it is a very small step from being a prospector to being a treasure hunter - a prospector looks for valuable mineral deposits, and many a lost mine is indeed a valuable mineral deposit, just that someone else found it before you and then the location has been lost. 

The Lost Dutchman gold mine is factual.  Whether it is found or remains lost, it continues to generate income for local businesses.  At least a half dozen different folks have claimed to have found this mine in the past year, and every one has a different spot and of course, NO gold to show, when it is a gold mine.  David I would hope to be among the first to congratulate you and shake your hand if you find the Lost Dutchman mine, but it is going to take more than some satellite photos.  A sample of the ore can seal the deal in a scientific way, so that even the majority of the skeptics can't argue it.  What you do with the mine(s) and or gold if you find it, is your decision to make - but first you have to find it.

Salvor6 wrote

Cactus jumper, Oroblanco, Gollum and Somehiker, I have read the posts of these idiots like SFNM, Blindbowman, Twisted Fork and others for the last few years. They have been very entertaining but nothing else. Lets see some real proof that they found the LDM but most of them have never even been near there! Why do you put up with this crap?
 

Well amigo I think most of us try to keep an open mind to the possibility.  It is to be expected that someone who finds it, will be excited about his/her find, and may well decide to tell the world about the discovery.  The finder will have earned a place in the history books, for sure.  All of us have some 'quirks' about us, some of us even have some 'wild ideas' that most people don't agree with, so we try to welcome all fellow treasure hunters and are willing to hear them out.  With some of these claimers, as in Blindbowman for instance, even though his claims and theories were pretty far out, at least they were interesting and almost forced us to go back and research the backgrounds of the theories.  With others we have no such interesting (if wild) background to research, just posting "I found it now give me all the respect and honors I am due" and often enough these same fellows are insulted that so few people are ready and willing to grant that respect and honors.  I half-suspect that several of them are in fact the same person, using different internet ID's for whatever reasons.   Anyway it costs nothing to be respectful and hear someone out, and perhaps the next one will have a sample of gold ore that matches the ore from Jacob Waltz - you never know!

To our next claimant to having found the LDM/Peralta treasure(s) - please, consider how it sounds when you tell the world about your discovery (or -ies, plural) and try to think of what it will take to prove such claims, like a sample of the gold ore, photos of the treasure vault etc.  Without such evidence, some of us are just not going to agree that you have indeed found the LDM/Peralta treasures.
 
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[I absolutely LOVE those photos amigos]

PS (as if my last post were not long enough) I absolutely LOVE those photos amigos, and yes that is really what gets a person "hooked" in this business or avocation, the 'friends' we make along the way!     Can anyone put a dollar value on that?

My point exactly.
Welcome back old friend.

What is there in this picture that convinces you that you are looking at a mine?

QUINAN BEAR; JUST PASSING YOU SOME IMPORTANT CONTACT INFO:  "THIS MAN CAN HELP WITH GETTING YOUR DISCOVERY OUT." (Nicolas Cage's own production company:
"Saturn Films")

9000 Sunset Boulevard

Suite 911

West Hollywood, CA 90069

Phone: 310-887-0900

 

Nicolas Cage's Agent:
Richard Lovett

Creative Artists Agency

2000 Avenue Of The Stars

Los Angeles, CA 90067

Phone: 424-288-2000

 That place is where it is located, yes.
 It is not by looking there, that made me believe there was one there. It was the Stone map of the Priest that lead me there. The curve shape of the small valley that runs east up over the hill, is the curve you see just next to the ring and cross. So you come from the large cross, then turn right, then you hit the mine (the ring), then you see the cross in stone, another turn left then the heart (which I assume is where the other mine is) then you will see "8-N-P".
 It's a Shame that you would rather debunk the very thought that I'm right, rather then give me the benefit of a doubt and actualy looking at what I am saying. That's O.K., I will defend myself in what I believe.
 If you were to forget about the mine that is there and looked at the convergences of three faults, how there is clearly different rocks meeting at this conjunction as well. You see, I looked at WAY more then just the way the land looked from Google, I did take the time to study any information that I could from USGS. I am more then just a treasure hunter, I'm a man of the earth. If your looking for a vein of gold, you need to know how the vein got there. I don't need to tell you of what I know or how I came to my conclusion, since you don't even believe me.

 Have A nice Day...

 Just wanted to add;
 The lost Dutchman and the peralta Family both hid their mines to look like nobody was ever there. So if you think that your gonna go there and see a mine entrance, your not.
 The Peralata's removed all trace of them being there.
 None of these mines will be seen, just by walking up to the area and seeing it.

 I found these areas by looking at the stones and my photos and map. I searched till I found all the markers on the stones. I made sure that each marker matched the stones. When I found the heart, I looked for all the markers that where on the Heart stone. I found the Crater, Place of worship, smelting area, Where the water flows over gold, 4 mine sites, the over hanging cliffs, the flat areas, the highest point..etc....  I found everything that i shown on the stones and they are all where they are supposed to be, compaired with the stones.
 This is why I claim to have solved the stones. Not just one stone or some of the stones, but ALL the stones. along with ALL their markers.

 Believe me or not, mock me if you wish. I'm not here to put any of you down or to claim to know more about the Superstitions then you guys that have actually been there. All I said was that I figured the stones out and that I wanted help to document them. Although you don't believe or want to help, I still do get replies from people that do believe and that will help.

 So you see, with or without your help, I will show the wolrd these sites.