The Peralta Stones

HOLA Mike (and everyone)
As you are speculating, I will present another speculation which could explain why stone for the maps, and why they were "dumped" along the trail instead of at the last treasure site.

They chose stone for the maps as it is cheap and durable, and could be left buried in the ground without much danger of it rotting or otherwise decomposing.  I still think paper or leather would have been much better on several grounds, but perhaps the person making the maps didn't have any?

So a party made the stone maps (from material which came quite some distance away) and was using them to find their way to the treasures when they were sudenly attacked by Indios - then either in the excitement of the fray, with the mules bucking and becoming frightened causing the stone maps to be lost from their packs, or later after the Indios had either killed all of the party or scattered them, the same Indios then find the stone maps in the packs on the mules and see no use for them so dump them on the spot.  Alternatively, the mule carrying the stones breaks loose during the attack, and runs away (a frightened horse or mule can be extremely hard to hold on to) only to shake the pack loose later on, perhaps days later.  This scenario would mean that it is likely the search party did not succeed in finding the treasures and were either killed or ran back to Mexico.

All of this is pure speculation of course as we have no evidence to support it, not even an old rotted mule pack saddle found nearby which would have helped a great deal.  I don't think my scenario presented above is correct, or Tumlinson ought to have found at least some treasures. 

Oroblanco

Roy and Mike,

I have always thought that the Stone Maps, assuming they are authentic, were never meant to be moved from the place where they were found.

Whoever created them, safeguarded the mines/treasure by only carrying a paper map showing where the tablets were buried.  Since they have been difficult (for some) to decipher, that (possible) plan seems to have worked well.

On the other hand, if they had paper maps they could be destroyed by fire, Apache, stolen or even lost.  They would have left trail signs, known only to them, to point out the location of the Stone Maps, once you were close.

In other words, they left a hard to find, indestructible waybill. One set of instructions to the location of the Stone Maps, which showed multiple locations, might be much simpler than trying to describe or remember all of the points on the maps.

I believe that makes, at least, as much sense as Jesuits, or any other Spaniards, using a set of secret symbols and markers to map out their mines/treasures.  Coded messages from the King of Spain, at that time, were a total joke.  Everyone was reading them with little effort. 

Take care,

Joe

[including the LaFrance family]

Bill96,

You asked:  "CJ, you seemed to state pretty clearly that you believe the stones were created in the late 40's. Do you dought Tumlinsons's story of finding them in 1949 ? This would seem to be just after they were created."

I do doubt that story.  It seems more likely that the Stone Maps were purchased by Tumlinson's father, who believed them to be authentic treasure maps.  Why the story?.......I have no idea, other than a plan for future profits from the maps.  You have the pamphlet as well as the Time Life article, and probably others.

I also don't believe the Priest/Horse "Map" was any part of the Stone Maps as there were no early pictures of them, that only came later.  I believe they were created to confuse and mislead.  It seems likely that they were created by Ted DeGrazia, with the help and knowledge of local Dutch Hunters.  He may have also been the original source for the trail maps, but that seems less certain.

The Stone Maps take you over the lofty ridge, that is the main mountain and drop you down into West Boulder Canyon.  On the way, you will pass by Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars.  On the west side of West Boulder, towards the top, you will find another cave/mine, which has been sealed.  It is also marked on the Stone Maps.

Because of the people who associated with Ted DeGrazia, including the LaFrance family, the ties seem very obvious with the maps.  Ted was also friends with Chuck and Peggy Aylor.  That would seem of no consequence, unless you have read Tom Kollenborn's "A Ride Through Time".

In it, he writes about Chuck's great love for Shakespeare and how he would often break out with passages from the man's work.  Tom mentions that this was his favorite passage:

"Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me. You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it speak. '..Do you think I am easier to be played on than a pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me, you cannot play upon me. "
Hamlet. Scene II ~ W.Shakespeare

Perhaps a coincidence, but added to the other things I have found, it all makes a convincing picture.  The maps were made by someone who had spent many years in the Superstitions, and that describes Chuck Aylor pretty well.  Assistant to the artist?

I will add to the evidence over the next several days.

Just for the record, much of what I write concerning the Stone Maps is simply opinion.......based on 40+ years of research and boots on the ground.  What is fact, is how the maps relate to the topography of the mountains.  It's as I have laid it out, to the exclusion of any other place.......period!

Take care,

Joe

CJ,
I love shakesspeare! and that is an interesting connection. Are you suggesting that the stones may have been purchased by the "father" of Travis Tumblison? and Travis never dug them up but made up the story to cover up the purchase?,  do I understand this correctly? I would be in complete agreement about the Horse/Priest map, but created to confuse and mislead who?why? I have always wanted o know more about Ted De Grazia, this was not all just to do with his "buried paintings" was it? it had to be much,much more.
I cannot be convinced that someone was lugging around these heavy stone maps looking for buried treasure. It would be like me dragging around a VW because someone had scratched a map on the hood. I would COPY it onto a piece of paper and leave the VW at home, who in their right mind carries around a hundred pound map unless they were moving it from one storage spot to another and maybe got interupted and had to bury them.
I live a few miles down from Vallecito, beautiful country.
Bill                     

Bill,

Pretty much in agreement with you here.  They were not meant to be moved around. 

Too many people were seeing the original trail maps, and eventually the entire world.  That covers quite a few Dutch Hunters.  Waltz's followers are world wide.

There is quite a bit of information out there about Ted DeGrazia.  I have a signed copy of his mistress's book about Ted.  Gives you a lot of insight into the man.  Once you see the connections he had with people who claimed to ride with Pancho Villa, it opens up another world of speculation about Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars.

There are many things that tie DeGrazia into the Horse/Priest map, not the least of which is his name carved into the rock.  Circumstantial, but just another log on the fire.  Hard to find a single Stone Map fan who can bring themselves to look into that fire.

Take care,

Joe

The stone tablets were buried shallow in the hottest part of the desert.  Nobody can date them.  Screw science.

They are an infield post office box or they were and the original carver was the King of Spain's most gifted witching Jesuit Monk.  That's a self portrait of him on the stone.  Pedro Peralta added his name as graffiti years later.  They cover the entire Western United States through the gold districts;  look on the topo of the West and mark every major mother lode.  Everywhere gold visible to the naked eye could be seen in those days.  There is one site in particular in this entire region referred to as the "Heart";  It is the richest place of them all.  The tip of the "Witch's Hat" is "Don's or "Kings" peak Utah, and the southern border is Des Buttes Arizona where the graphical features of this big man the "Don" refers to his "Two Boots".  Ever seen a large painting of a Don being followed by little men in sack cloth, peons as tall as his boots?  Knife to heart means that it is so rich at the heart zone mine, that you can carve it out with a knife.  Each Site across the West has some resemblance to each other one from the next as nature repeats herself on unlimited scales wherever pure gold exists.  The marker sets you may locate at each site, are instructions in how to find the gold in and around the next neighboring mountain as all of the sites are chained together.  The markers read the same wherever you go according to the Early Big Hat Jesuit Mason's Code of Triangulation.  A knowing soul would use sign to find the tablets and from there use his chart compass to make himself a set of scale paper maps from the stones.  Thus many paper maps leading to the same mines.  A knowing soul could also make a paper map from any set of mine site makers and use it to back track back to the location of the tablets at their burial site.  The witch faces east.  The mine refered to as the "Heart" is where the stones were originally carved;  not where they were buried.  It fits like tracing paper in every phase and scale.  All of the other mine sites along the chain in any direction are a reflection N, S, E, W of the heart.   The Dutchman ain't nothing to brag about by early Jesuit standards.  Those crafty boys had more gold than they knew what to do with and spent most of their time looking for new sites while crews followed behind hiding the others down the trail.  As you well know;  it is a perfect system yes?

I would like to add my 2 cents to this thread, I have a map titled Pima Land, and the Legand shows Spanish towns,Missions, Presidio,Indian villages,Vistia,Watering places,Ruins,and Places. Map dates run from 1687 to 1711. My "guess" is where the Peralta stones were found was at one time 1 of the legand places listed on the map. Map shows Tayopa spelled as  Provincia de  Topia,and Sinola as Cinaloa. I have other imfo on the so called golden statue, but need to do retro research again before posting it.
Just adding to this fray as my time permits. 
 

[Ed Adams]

Mr. Fork,
 
Very interesting take on the Stone Map story.
 
Back to my original question, which you never answered.  Your story about George Adams finding a sandbar packed with gold....and eventually taking an Apache arrow for his troubles.  As I mentioned, I know something about your familie's history and have no doubts about your own knowledge of their story.
 
My question remains:  Why didn't Emma Adams put a single word of your story in her fine memorial book to George Mason Adams and Martha Louise Devey Adams?    It tells the family history in great detail and with all of the excitement and color of that era.  The story you have told us here would have been a wonderful addition to her book.
 
There is no plausible reason for leaving that story out, just as it makes perfect sense that you would tell it here.  It would be enlightening to hear some explanation of why the story was "a closely guarded secret".  Since Joe and Martha told the family the story, why doesn't Emma mention it in her book?
 
In any case, the story is a great one but bears no resemblance to the original written by Richard Patterson and first published in the Socorro Chieftain in 1876.  It was published again, as a booklet, in  the 20s.  I doubt either of those can be found today but John D. Mitchell put the story in his "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest" in 1933.

J. Frank Dobie published the story around 1939,  in "Apache Gold & Yaqui Silver".  That book was originally copyrighted in 1928.  My own copy is a first edition from 1939 and is signed by Dobie.  The story has morphed all over the place since the first published account in 1876, but yours might just be the real thing.  Arizona is one of the "new" stories.

The original tale places the date of the discovery as 1864.  Four men survived that find, one of them being Ed Adams.  I believe George Adams would have been eight years old at that time.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Such a map might refer to early Santa Fe region and beyond.  Many of these early maps appear to focus on certain areas, but in reality cover large territories by a few know regular water sources rather than settlements.   Not to pry, but is the map available as published or otherwise?  

Cactus Jumper,

     Very good questions indeed.  I remember the same conflicts in my studies and knowing how legends can become murky with time have more or less accepted the family version based on hunts we made together back in the 1980's.  Most all of the old folks in the family have passed now and It would appear that the locations of certain Spanish markers are know to only a few of us now.  The last time I visited the region was back in 1986 at a time when my personal understanding of the Mason's system was still in it's infancy.  Since that time I have learned a great deal more here in Utah along some of the main mineral belts.  Their marker grouping is the key and is the same on every gold bearing mountain they set monuments upon.  One has to wonder why such a story has been left out if known about of course and my only conclusion to this would rest on a couple of different angles.  The first being that Adams knew that if his family had any idea of his find, some of his cherished nephews would soon be on the trail into Apache territory and more than likely never be heard of again.  Their mothers and immediate families would never forgive him of this if it happened.  The second and just as likely reason being that they were all Mormons.  Upon settling in the Utah territory, the Mormon leaders frowned heavily on any of the church members leaving the farm to look for treasure.  They expected their sons to marry young and to carry on the tradition of the elders as priests and fathers of large families.  Of course time proved that Brigam Young was a greedy half cocked old --deleted-- who premeditatedly poisoned the Ute Indians with booze made from rotted trash and went back on every agreement he ever made with them.  He really wanted all of the Spanish/Ute gold and real estate for himself and this is really why he commanded the fathers to shoot their own sons in the back if they had ideas of leaving the farm for any reason.  He dealt with competition in blood.   In any event, I believe they were all onto the same location along the Salt River.  A present factor that many overlook is the fact that the tablets do not say Peralta anywhere on them and in reality refer to an existing treasure already amassed, stored at the mission in Santa Fe and relocated somewhere beyond the reaches of the Black River.  This took place in and around the late 1700's due to the Pima uprisings.  All weigh bills use coded reference to locate the sources of the initial ore, but their main focal point is to get to the goods in the vault(s).  Germans whoever they were, had found the Peralta's most recent Arizona digs and the only clue that even ties the tablets is the hint of 1847 which was more than likely added to the stones beyond their date of conception.  Personally, I would refer to them as Jesuit tablets since the Peraltas only inherited the existing trail.  These were Indian mines forced out of the natives by the monks.
  

[the "Heart"; It is the richest place of them all.]

Twisted Fork wrote

There is one site in particular in this entire region referred to as the "Heart"; It is the richest place of them all.

A lot of folks have had this idea, but if it is the same "Heart" place in the Superstitions that I am familiar with, it is not that promising for any kind of minerals - at least not compared with several other areas Mrs O and I have prospected which are elsewhere, in AZ, AK, YT, CO etc.  If I may ask, why do you say it is "the richest place of them all"?  Thank you in advance, and if you would rather not say I will understand.
Oroblanco

Spanish love comes from the heart...........It is the richest kind.  Ask any Don.




They are also saying that if you find my mine through my secrets (of the heart) it will be as a knife to the heart to loose such a love as this.


I get the impression that they believed that most of the Rocky mountains and surrounding states were formed all at the same time more or less as one ore body and that the site of the heart is the source of all things pure.  I would say that the gold running across to the East from Nevada is the main shoulder of the Don's body with King's peak (Don) being the top of his crown.

Mr. Fork,

Thank you for your reply.  It would seem you misunderstood my post.  I am not really interested in the mechanics/markers for the Lost Adams Diggings as I am not in that hunt.  I am interested in the pioneer history of Arizona and more specifically, at this moment, the Adams family.

I made some points in my post which I hoped you could address.  The fact that originally it was Ed Adams who was the principal person involved in the Lost Adams legend.  The fact that, according to the original story, that George Adams would have been eight years old when the sandbar was found.  Finally, the entire story of who, how, why and when it was found is completely different than the story that was passed down to you.

Have you ever read the original story?  If not, perhaps you should.

Joe Ribaudo

I remember reading several different versions other than my own in the archives at the Phoenix library, including the one you have brought to light.  All of them were different from each other and were in need of being dismantled and cross referenced.  Perhaps legend has mixed up to different characters over one and the same location.  There is only one or two locations in all of Arizona that even come close to fitting the bill.  Your biggest stumbling block will be in trying to find said area according to available water on the trail as it is the defining limitation to where their animals could travel to in the first place.  Nearly all of the springs vanished permanently when they built Roosevelt Dam due to back pressure against the hydrothermal faults reaching far into other territories.  As for the family version, they held the gold with their own hands and this was from the horse's mouth to my ears, shortly before the old timer Sponseller passed away.  I still remember playing with his father as a little boy and he was as hard a core real life Arizona cowboy as they come.  After Adams was wounded by the Apache, he was to scared to ever go back and soon moved out of the area.  The story version I first spoke of was word for word from the mouth of these old timers.  Adams left a detailed map with Joseph Sponseller at the time of his marriage to his daughter Martha.  It covered the location of a particular canyon along the Salt.  Outside of this he would only say that it was 3 days ride and down river on the Salt from the Show Low Calvary Saloon.  The key land mark was that it was filled with more cactus than anywhere else he knew of.  The problem with legends are that it is possible that only one single reference amongst the story may bear any accuracy in relation to pointing you in the right direction.  Have you seen in a schoolroom where one person whispers into the ear of another, and then in turn each student whispers what they heard into the ear of the next until there is now comparison to the original voice spoken by the time the story gets to the other side of the room?  Add to this booze, horse play, greed, liars, story tellers, whores, and last but not least, 150 years.  Oh ya, and don't forget the blazing Arizona heat, delirium and the intervention of ghosts in the minds of mad men.  People write books because there is money in it,  At this point I figure I will hold on to my first hand trail experience and the horse's mouth;  the gold is where you find it brother;  don't let the hugh rattle snacks bite O.K.  Any more questions?  When you get close, use the stone tablets.

Good evening ghost dog:  A slight correction.  Topia is in Sinaloa and has a paved road to it.

 It is NOT Tayopa, sorry.   The location of Topia has never been lost.


Don Jose de La Mancha

Mr. Fork,

Once again, many thanks for your reply.

I have most of the stories of the Lost Adam's Diggings, and now I have yours to add to the collection.  As I noted earlier, the story is quite old.  I believe, if there was ever any truth to that legend, the location has been found long ago.  I am much more interested in what you can add to your families' history.

To be honest, I already know a great deal, but had never heard some of your stories.  Here are a few facts:

George Mason Adams did not raise cattle......for a living.  He raised sheep.  They were often on the Mesa, that being Mesa Rondonda.  They had a few cows, but that was usually the extent of their cattle interests.   George and Martha were very brave people, and he never moved from their home because of Indians.

Martha once physically held an escaping Indian, who was on horseback, until the menfolk came to her aid.  No shrinking violet there.

Other than accidentally shooting himself when he was sixteen, over the years, George suffered seven broken ribs, both collar bones broken, one arm broken in two places, a broken shoulder blade and a skull fracture.  No other mishaps are mentioned.  I believe those injuries were recorded by Katie Pearl Adams Penrod, in 1953.

Depending on your age, I have probably read the history of your parents.  If you tell me their first names, I will tell you what I know about their history.  What do you know about the deaths of George and Martha?  I would be interested in any information you would care to share.  Do you have any of the older family pictures?

This is what happens when you ask me if I have any "more questions".

Thanks again,

Joe Ribaudo

Questions are alright..........

I was refering to the Sponsellers as the owners of the cattle ranch.  They ran cattle on government land along the Salt beyond Show Low.  As for my family, they want nothing to do with any of it as it is with the descendants of the Sponsellers.  They ran for their lives out of the canyon in question back in the early eighties after seeing a bearded man with long brown hair dressed in a robe who stood on a rock sticking out of a slope to their side.  The tablets lead to this spot and their is evidence that it was once canyon Fresco before the spring died.  This being looked down at them and their diviner lost all of her power like hitting a switch.  Then he turned about face and vanished before their eyes as though he was stepping into another realm.  My cousin said he has never seen old fat people run so fast in all of his life.  The two of us returned to the area two weeks later and finished out a sequence of Spanish markers leading to the draw from above.  My cousin freaked out and would go no further.  On the slope below, I located five yucca plants arranged in the form of a cross.  Three in a row vertical 2 feet apart, and one on either side same spread.  This is the dirt patch plugging the portal that leads into the buried funnel from below on the mountain.  On the tablets it is carved as a safe, marked 11 with a cross at it's side in parentheses.  The being stood just above here, in between two Spanish markers of similar form, 8 paces apart to form 11.  I am a black sheep.....Baaaaaaaaaa

(and Hell no , the being wasn't Moroni)

Mr. Fork,

Once again, thank you for your reply,

The information that I have, which comes from the children of Joseph and Martha Sponseller, indicates that they were, primarily, sheep ranchers.  At one time they had almost 5,000 head of sheep with the larger part being American sheep and the rest consisting of Mexican sheep. 

At the same time, they did have 40-50 head of cattle, but that seemed a minor part of their ranching.  They did not live in Show Low, but had their ranch in Taylor, AZ, which is close by.

The Stone Maps are not that difficult to read, and are confined to the Superstition Mountains, with Bluff Spring Mountain being the easternmost boundary.  I believe I posted pictures of my map on this Forum.
Anyone who is familiar with the Superstitions should be able to see the obvious connection with the Stone Maps.

On the other hand, anyone who believes they know of another area which is depicted by the Stone Maps, will likely not see a connection at all.

If there is anything you feel you may not know about your family, and are curious about, I may be able to help.  At the same time, I would be interested in any, unpublished, information you would care to share, like you have done in your past few posts.

Many thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

One day when all of you are on the edge of starvation due to the numskulls ass kissing in office and ZOG domination (Kazars), numerous Jesuit treasures shall be uncovered across the West, in an effort to feed those who are worthy.  Thanks, but I could not stomach another Mormon session of genealogy listening to perverted Masons brag.  There is no such thing as a Jew. The gold is where you find it.

B,

You wrote:

[I cannot really say, for absolutely sure, that anything has really been "authenticated".   That is an assumption based on someone looking at it (who is knowledgeable, to be sure), but, never-the-less, not really "authenticated" - as such.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't people who are trying to get a hand-written, "yes, I saw it, I examined it, and here are my conclusions" authentication, and they HAVE been looked at by more than one person. (for different reasons).]

The people I mentioned did not, and could not, have authenticated or conclusively proved anything concerning the Stone Maps.  They were asked for a qualified opinion based of a cursory examination of the artifacts.  They did that, and their reasoning was compelling.......at least to me.  If you have not read the article, I will have the magazine at the Rendezvous and you can judge it yourself........assuming you haven't already purchased or seen a copy.

The maps have been examined by many people and some of them were qualified to judge them, in some manner.  Those who are said to have authenticated them as to age, have never put their name to the bottom of a written report.......that can be produced today, or was made public at any time in the past.

The Stone Maps have resided in a museum for many years now.  After all those years, no one at the museum, that I have talked to believes they are (historically) authentic.  As I mentioned, the last conversation I had with someone from the museum, a few weeks ago, produced the ringing endorsement of..........."crazy maps".

It may be that the museum has never truly examined the tablets with an eye toward authentication either, but they all have a definite (negative) opinion.  Due to their own self interests, they seldom will make a public statement to that effect.

Take care,

Joe

[ZOG]

Mr. Fork,

You wrote:  

"One day when all of you are on the edge of starvation due to the numskulls ass kissing in office and ZOG domination (Kazars), numerous Jesuit treasures shall be uncovered across the West, in an effort to feed those who are worthy.  Thanks, but I could not stomach another Mormon session of genealogy listening to perverted Masons brag.  There is no such thing as a Jew. The gold is where you find it."

I would imagine your post is a blending of very little concerning "The Peralta Stones" and a great deal that does not belong on this particular forum.  One might conclude that you would approve of branding the forheads of all Jewish people, so that the non-Jewish folks could recognize them on sight.

Would that be correct?

While the "genealogy" you reference concerns a Mormon family, it is also, according to you, your own family's history.  It is the combined recollections of a great many direct ancestors of George Mason Adams.  That family has many accomplishments and a pioneer history that should be something you would be proud of.

So far, I have done nothing that resembles a chronological genealogy of George's ancestors.  Rather I have provided some small vignettes of events in their lives, that bear on your own comments.  I should think that you would welcome that small slice of history for your family.

From what you have just written, I can see that I am wrong.

Now and then, I am castigated for being a self appointed "history monitor", or just being unable to mind my own business.  Along those lines, I imagine many of you can remember times in your life when you look back and kick yourself for something you left unsaid.

Being a history buff, I can't help but look back a few years and observe the terminal silence that has taken place at different times and places around the world, and the catastrophic results of people minding their own business.

IMHO, the consequences of doing that here seem very small.  The problem is, that left alone, these types of comments seem to fester and grow into something much larger than the people who post them.  That mirrors what takes place in world history.  Here it just grows more and more ugly, in the world it grows tragic.

While Jeff does a fine job of monitoring this forum, that should not relieve the rest of us from calling a spade a spade......when we see it.  After all, in a sense, this is our collective home.

Joe Ribaudo

How many people do you know of who have ever lived in Judea?  As a historian, the term Jew is only a couple of centuries old.  Jesus was a descendant of Levi through his mother.  The Apostles were from Galilee like Jesus, except for Judas the deceiver.  Israel left the Holy Land and the Northern barbarians known as the Kazars moved in.  If you are interested in what Jesus thought of them, read the New Testament concerning him voicing out against the Pharisees, their children and generations.  If you would like to gnaw on some real history concerning the house of Israel and the Jesuit i.e. Westward expansion, read about what God thinks of the real tribe of Judea;  the pioneers of Utah in Jeremiah 17: 1-7.  King James.

Enclosed is a 300 year old true Spanish Jesuit monument called the Ship Weavers Needle.  It sits a topped the no longer lost Jesuit mine "Josephine."   It is one of the richest mines in the world and is the location of where most of the gold shipped to Spain came from.  No, it's not in Arizona.  Don't expect me to be proud of a line of child molesters.  My how legends and people who like to run their mouths can get out of hand.

twisted fork,by your mention of child molsters,you must be refering to the  most recent activities of  the   modern Catholic church,and their payout of millions of denro to their cherished parishineers. But tell me how does this relate to a bunch of graffiti marked stones in this thread,unless of course,the images on the rocks are secret porno codes. Your logic is as twisted as a spoon.

Hey Real D.T., I"m sure you are correct, I will have to bone up on my Espanol,but I am sure the Opa part of Tay refers to the Indians of the same name  Opatios or something close to that.

Mr. Fork,

If you are trying to become some kind of modern-day Benjamin Freedman, you will first need to learn how to spell Khazar.  Few people are going to pay much attention to the warnings of an anti-Semite who can't spell well enough to show that he knows his history. 

Beyond that, your Biblical genealogy is a little shaky as well. Does this mean you think the tattooed foreheads is something you could get behind?

I would really prefer going back to extolling the virtues and adventures of George Mason Adams and his descendants.  He, of course, as a Mormon believed he was Jewish.  That would mean that you might also have Jewish blood in your veins.  In that, lies your other similarity to Mr. Freedman.  Funny how these things work out.

Joe Ribaudo

Ghostdog,

"Hey Real D.T., I"m sure you are correct, I will have to bone up on my Espanol,but I am sure the Opa part of Tay refers to the Indians of the same name  Opatios or something close to that."

There is no Native American Tribe who's name begins with "Opa".  You will need to find another source for the name.

Joe Ribaudo

Hey Guys,

The Josephine is supposed to be in Utah. I believe that it exists, but I highly doubt that twisted fork has found it. He doesn't even have a rudimentary knowledge of the relationship between the Jesuits and the Spanish Crown.

A little history lesson here:

    See, since 1687, it was officially illegal for the Jesuits to either mine or have any knowledge of mining. While the official Jesuit Precept wasn't issued until 1747 (because of many violations of the law), it was a steadfast law as far as the King of Spain was concerned. That being said, maybe Mr Fork can explain how the Josephine was the largest source of gold shipped to Spain from the New World??


Best-Mike

[I am totally lost with where you are going with this.]

Well I am more than a little confused.  Where to start?

Twisted Fork wrote

One day when all of you are on the edge of starvation due to the numskulls ass kissing in office and ZOG domination (Kazars), numerous Jesuit treasures shall be uncovered across the West, in an effort to feed those who are worthy.  Thanks, but I could not stomach another Mormon session of genealogy listening to perverted Masons brag.  There is no such thing as a Jew. The gold is where you find it.

Huh?  No such thing as a Jew? Edge of starvation? Numerous Jesuit treasures to be uncovered in order to feed those who are worthy?   

Twisted Fork also wrote

How many people do you know of who have ever lived in Judea?  As a historian, the term Jew is only a couple of centuries old.  Jesus was a descendant of Levi through his mother.  The Apostles were from Galilee like Jesus, except for Judas the deceiver.  Israel left the Holy Land and the Northern barbarians known as the Kazars moved in.  If you are interested in what Jesus thought of them, read the New Testament concerning him voicing out against the Pharisees, their children and generations.  If you would like to gnaw on some real history concerning the house of Israel and the Jesuit i.e. Westward expansion, read about what God thinks of the real tribe of Judea;  the pioneers of Utah in Jeremiah 17: 1-7.  King James.

Well I do know a few folks who live in Israel, which area includes much of what was Judaea in ancient times, one is a friend I have had some interesting history discussions with. I also have a friend who lives in Lebanon, formerly Phoenicia the sometime ally of the kingdom of Israel/Judaea.  As for the term "Jew" well we know the Romans called them a similar name for their land of Judah, and refer to them in a law dating to 1 BC, <Edict of Augustus on Jewish Rights> and this is where the term "Jew" came into use,  so I am totally lost with where you are going with this.  

Cactusjumper wrote

There is no Native American Tribe who's name begins with "Opa".

I think you have forgotten one - the OPATAS, whose territory may have included a sliver of area within Arizona.  Famous for a lost silver mine named for them too.  I believe this tribe still exists, but mostly in Northern Mexico.
Oroblanco

[is]

Roy,

You are, of course, correct.  On the other hand, I said "there is no......."  While my statement is correct, the Opata completely slipped my mind.  Since I have read some of their history, I have no idea why I came up blank.

Perhaps my mind was elsewhere.......

Take care,

Joe

If the tribes had not been driven away from the Holy Land and moved to the North therefore settling Europe amongst barbarians, perhaps you may be a Judean today yourself.  I take it that since you were probably born in America, that you are probably know as an American.  To be Judean means that you were born in Judea.  When Juda was driven from their homeland, Kazars moved into their homes and offices and took on the existing roles the conquers hired them to do.  What you see today are a mixed blood of Rome known as the children of Gog and Magog who originated in old Russia.  You are dealing with Rome, the church founded on 7 hills and those who wait for their Messiah the Anti-Christ.  Israel is scattered to the four corners of the earth.

 Getting back to the tablets, they are Jesuit; the sons of enlightenment who spent many years protecting the Christians from said individuals through cloak and dagger in the hood.  The same Kazar individuals mentioned have been trying to track down and infiltrate the Tribes according to the instructions of the Talmud and their Roman lords.  Jesus referred to them as vipers.  We find the Jesuits here in the Americas first hand before the known explorers and this is why they controlled the gold mines from day one.  This is also why some of the Indians already spoke French and Spanish as the natives first loved them in Christ and as they saw the monks as worthy of handling the sacred gold they sought after in the name of Jesus.  This the idea of keeping it out of the hands of the Kazars who where even then trying to infiltrate their church ranks behind the bankrolls of so called "Jewish" Merchants who by the way premeditatedly started the slave trade here with the children of Cain under the same motives; to undermine the House of Israel with a passion.  As you see to this day, the Holy Spirit and it's servants the monks did a fine job in hiding and preserving the richest and deepest gold deposits in the world.  The childlike script used on the tablets still has your brains cooking.  You and your ancestors are all victims of a communist scam know as Judeo/Christianity.  Look at America today and open your eyes wide.

[NOT]

Cactusjumper wrote

You are, of course, correct.

Hey it is NOT often that I can find something Cactusjumper forgot!  <How does that saying go - even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while?   >  

Ghost Dog's mention reminds me there was something I read concerning Tayopa and the Opatas, wish I could remember it.  Real de Tayopa are you following this thread?  If so, can you recall this connection between the Opatas and Tayopa?  Thank you in advance,

Twisted Fork wrote

What you see today are a mixed blood of Rome known as the children of Gog and Magog who originated in old Russia. You are dealing with Rome, the church founded on 7 hills and those who wait for their Messiah the Anti-Christ. Israel is scattered to the four corners of the earth.

Maybe you haven't read some of the fairly recent DNA studies done on modern Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese and other Middle Eastern peoples?  I think you might be surprised at what they found.  I am still lost for any connections to the Peralta stones here, but anyway...

Twisted Fork also wrote

The childlike script used on the tablets still has your brains cooking. You and your ancestors are all victims of a communist scam know as Judeo/Christianity. Look at America today and open your eyes wide.

If you are referring to me, those "Peralta Stones" do not 'cook' my brains, though they did seem puzzling at first.  I think the Copper Scroll is a much more interesting 'treasure map' than the 'Peralta stones' for that matter.  As for me and my ancestors being "victims" of a communist scam known as Judeo/Christianity, I don't really think you know me or my ancestors that well if you have concluded what you posted.  I also do look at America today, and some of what I see really turns my stomach.

Twisted Fork, I have another question for you, purely speculative - what if it could be proved that the so-called "Peralta Stones" were a fraud?  How would that fit the picture you have painted?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

If you were one of my fellow Born Again Christian brothers, I would take you into the wilderness and show you where they are.  When the New World Order Police come and take away your guns, you will be looking into the eyes of the servants of the Kazars.

Twisted Fork wrote

When the New World Order Police come and take away your guns, you will be looking into the eyes of the servants of the Kazars

I am not sure where you have been getting all of this amigo, but nothing would surprise me anymore.

http://missinglinksmovie.blogspot.com/

Here is a place to start.  Now who was it that voted for change?

If you have video capture software, you can copy the high quality FLV at the bottom of the page.  A good Mozilla Add on is called "Video Download Helper" and can be acquired under the tab...... tools, add ons, browse all add ons.  Select show all add ons, on the page.  It's free. An animated icon will appear at the top of your browser tool bar. Start the FLV Link,  click on your new Downloader Icon and select the movie.  

Joe:
  Suspicions confirmed by "missing links" author name.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=521063

Regards:SH

And a post by someone using the handle..."Prothink"...copied from that site
QUOTE...
"Just a disclaimer from me personally. You will notice that I do not have a link section on my page any longer because I am now at a stage where I don't feel like I need to piggyback any elses work. I myself do not trust anyone out there unless I personally know them and know them well. I do however know John very well seeing how we worked on the ONLY (should I again say ONLY) movie pinning the Jew to 9/11. http://www.911missinglinks.com As far as I am concerned, the rest can bug off, including all of our detractors. No one had the balls or ambition to make that type of film. John just put out ANOTHER great film that is worth checking out and it should be started as a new thread in fact:

http://www.concerningthejews.com/

I would like to others so dedicated to do suck work.... "
...

Regards:SH

Good morning   BETH & oro: You posted -->

Real de Tayopa are you following this thread?  If so, can you recall this connection between the Opatas and Tayopa?  Thank you in advance,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI, yes, of course. Tayopa is in the Guayajiro territory.   From Alamos in the south to Yecora to the North.

The Opatas tend to overlap them.  They extend from mid Sonora to Arizona.  Nothing precise.

Both groups are alive and well today.

Don Jose de La Mancha

And a post by someone using the handle..."Prothink"...copied from that site
QUOTE...
"Just a disclaimer from me personally. You will notice that I do not have a link section on my page any longer because I am now at a stage where I don't feel like I need to piggyback any elses work. I myself do not trust anyone out there unless I personally know them and know them well. I do however know John very well seeing how we worked on the ONLY (should I again say ONLY) movie pinning the Jew to 9/11. http://www.911missinglinks.com As far as I am concerned, the rest can bug off, including all of our detractors. No one had the balls or ambition to make that type of film. John just put out ANOTHER great film that is worth checking out and it should be started as a new thread in fact:

http://www.concerningthejews.com/

I would like to others so dedicated to do suck work.... "
...

Regards:SH

Ya Buddy....  Was unable to gain access on this link, is it just my system?  Cool beans, more info more of everything good.

Twisted:
  The second link gets a "forbidden" message now for me as well.It worked fine this morning.....

If you read Post #9 at the first link,though,you will find statements that are in the same vein as those in the "forbidden link"
The last post also has a link to the "forbidden" page that still works.

Are you promoting this video and the producer,Mikey Delaney , to the rest of us here at T-Net?
On the anniversary of 911.
Is "Stormfront" one of your research sources?
This Mike Delaney aka "prothink" seems to be a little loony toons IMO.Just like that Mikey Moore butterball.
Seems like the "Kazars" are frequently discussed on that site as well,and with that same spelling.
I didn't bother looking for any reference to the Mormons,but I suspect that they are on the hate list as well.
A lot of questions,I know.But I'm asking anyway.

SH.

Some Hiker:

I've been hearing about this stuff for years now but have only recently taken a more serious look into the subject since the new puppet clown was elected.  I have friends that are hard core voices in the mix and all of us were Mormons at one time in our past.  I live in Salt Lake City and have watched first hand as the effects on our society due to ZOG and their ACLU preventing any kind of sensible border control.  It is my personal interpretation of the matter that they are planning to turn the world into a ghetto and then flood the streets with Afghani Heroin as a final blow to all of us the house of Israel.  Vietnam was just that as they napalmed the jungle water ways and planted poppies in it's place.  The communists were trying to take over the Heroin market so they beefed up the supply in an effort to destroy their profit margins.

 The Mormon church is still inviting people from all over the world to come to America as active members, well knowing there are not any jobs for them.  This place was over run 3 years ago.  Finding a job here now is next to impossible.  Immigrants have taken over the lower management of all of the staffing services and when placement rarely does become available, guess who they send out?  To make matters worse, they are giving out double shifts to them at other companies and to as many of the same characters as possible.  In other words, the new folks in town are thriving and the locals are dying.  The Peralta tablets are beautiful works of art that I have used to locate numerous Spanish digs in and around the Uinta Mountains Range.  Most are hard to get to and are out of reach if one cannot even afford the time and largely expense in an effort to raise them from the grave.  On the other hand, the Mexicans are taking over the job market, but this white boy knows where their ancestors got the gold from.  How due you spell irony?

Mr. Fork,

Just wondering why you are grousing about the Mormons and the Mexicans getting all the hours and jobs, when you know where all that gold is?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

I was waiting for that......

The terrain is so rough and remote that you can't get near most of them with a horse;  foot travel only and ropes up and down hundreds of feet of shear cliffs,  several of them are over run with bears and record size mountain lions, three are on hand me down patented land that belongs to old folks who have no idea of what they have or a widow who is unable to get much further than arm chair prospecting and won't get involved unless she can see for herself, the forestry feds require 3 to 4 million dollars in bond up front before breaking ground beyond a square yard, two are in elk sanctuaries,  two are in an eagle sanctuary, and last but not least my favorite, Mormons who refuse to do their own treasure hunting home work climbing up my back side with the usual 21 questions;  What are you doing up here?  Are you alone?  Do you come hear often,  Where do you live?  Is that your truck we saw coming in?  Whats that gear in the back of your truck?  When will you be back to camp?  Your not poaching are you?  Have you ever heard of my uncle Bob?  He used to look for gold mines up here.  Can we tag along with you? 

It's getting to the point now that a guy has to go at night when the predators are hunting too.  Otherwise, I know right were the crap is.

Evening T Fork: it sounds as if you are getting good elementary base work for looking for lost Jesuit mines in Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha

I would love to do just that, but I hear that many of the mines are already known of by the families of small local farmers and that it is a good way to get ones skull ventilated.  A lawyer I knew back in the 70's in N.Hollywood worked with a guy off and on who used to go to Sunday market with a friend and his sawed off double barrel and a floor safe on a dolly.  Farmers would come into town and sell them nuggets torn from out of the rock for cash.  He then sold them piece by piece to the highest bidder.  It became too dangerous and he eventually had to give it up.

The place that interests me the most at this point is New Mexico.  I've never been much of a miner, but more rather a hunter in study of real trail sign in the field.  There truly is a system to it and it is quit accurate everywhere.  The maps vary depending on the Don, but the geometry is the same.  The Peraltas loved billiards.  Another Don might appreciate military field hardware, another the stars and yet another table games, ball games or board games.  Either way, the math is the same;  just different reference from the same points.  I discovered this in realizing different marker sets surrounding the same mine on the same mountain.  One Don set his up on the west side, 20 years later, another on the south side and so on.  The most common sets if no other is that of the Jesuits who reference the stories of the walk of Christ, through the streets and on to the place of the skull and the cross. To descend into the depths, to rise again and the reappearance to civilization with riches from the high place.  It's all about the walk and hunt to me;  a place to bruise the serpent in the wilderness. 

Roy,

I also wondered why make treasure maps out of stone rather than wood, parchment, or leather. The only explanation (other than hoaxing), was that the stone maps were not taken away. They were left hidden near whichever trail the family took. That way, nobody in Mexico would have any idea where the mines were.

They would have been picked up on the way North, and redeposited on the way home. Stone would hold up much better than any other material. When the last odf anything valuable was removed, the stones would have been discarded on the way back South -or- when the mule carrying the stone maps broke away during the Apache Attack, it either kicked the saddle loose or was removed by the Apache before eating the mule.

Best-Mike

The ideal is to spread a sheet of paper over the stones and to lightly brush over them with a piece of charcoal.  Then with key Masonic guidelines, one cuts them into pieces and reassembles the parts into the now focused paper map.  They were kept there on purpose to point out a position to the North of their burial as the paper map continues, and on to yet other mines on either side as far North as Ogden, Utah.  Reference the PAX Monk pictograph with the  the sheep herders cane.

Some interesting bits I came across, A fine  statue made from alms of Nuestra Senorade los Remedios was brought from Mexico to mission Dolores ,well guarded,then moved to mission Remedios where installed.
A ruin near Vah Ki now called Casa Blanca is suppoidly related to the Montezumas. These ruins were called casa grandes by the Indians,and they were scared of them thinking they were cursed. Several of these ruins are near where 2 mountains join together in a tight gap.There is a Indian legand of a large stone jar filled with precious stones buried in this area.

If there is spiritual fear there, it is because of the wandering dead, still obsessed with the goods.  This can be a handy help in finding treasure.  If your hair stands up during a hunt, giggle some;  maybe the spirit will lead you straight to it.  This is divination at it's best and is better known as "Time Divination."  To be drawn.

Mr. Fork,

"If there is spiritual fear there, it is because of the wandering dead, still obsessed with the goods."

I have spent many nights in the Superstitions, if that's where "there" is, and have never felt anything but comfort from the "wandering dead", who enjoy sitting close to the campfire.  We are old friends.

It's very hard to follow your posts, when you don't address them to anyone.  It's almost as if you are replying to yourself.....most of the time.

When you were doing your divining, did you happen to conjure up what kind of reception you would receive with these kind of posts?  Does herb become the one who does the writing......and thinking?

Joe Ribaudo

I seldom use herb unless I am after the gold in this world;  that is what a Hebrew Priest would tell you it is for if you can find one that isn't asleep in the grave.  I really don't even need a willow anymore as my pull towards a site begins within 20 miles of the location wherein upon arrival, I am now able to just walk straight to that which the Holy Spirit has on it's schedule for that particular day;  like a magnet  My motor is running in pursuit 24/7, whether it is in the works or not;  I am only human you know.  Jesus is in the spotlight and you are a spirit audience.  Satan is the peanut gallery with gum under his shoes and Jujubes on his gown.

Mr. Fork,

'You are a spirit audience and the Messiah is in the spotlight."

Since you are the one doing the "speaking/writing", does that make you the "Messiah"?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

All of the born again are a voice in the wilderness;  let he who has ears, hear.

Isn't there more evidence to support the realities of the tablets, then there is to have cause to dismiss them?  The Jesuits are real, the Peraltas are real, gold is real, the Dons probably weren't on vacation in Arizona, Waltz was real, The military trail was originally Spanish, were talking about the Peralta land grant and their family became extremely rich on cattle they purchased with gold digs,  Indians don't lie, they would rather clam up,  Some folks just give up to easy I'd say.  The more you do your homework the more likely are you to expand your mind and your search.  That's just my impression of it.

[are you saying that you have a spirit guide, a familiar spirit whom aids and-or guides you to help find lost treasures?]

Cactusjumper wrote

When you were doing your divining, did you happen to conjure up what kind of reception you would receive with these kind of posts? Does herb become the one who does the writing......and thinking?

and
Twisted Fork replied

I seldom use herb unless I am after the gold in this world; that is what a Hebrew Priest would tell you it is for if you can find one that isn't asleep in the grave. I really don't even need a willow anymore as my pull towards a site begins within 20 miles of the location wherein upon arrival, I am now able to just walk straight to that which the Holy Spirit has on it's schedule for that particular day; like a magnet My motor is running in pursuit 24/7, whether it is in the works or not; I am only human you know. Jesus is in the spotlight and you are a spirit audience. Satan is the peanut gallery with gum under his shoes and Jujubes on his gown.

Hmm let me get this straight Twisted Fork, are you saying that you have a spirit guide, a familiar spirit whom aids and-or guides you to help find lost treasures? Thank you in advance,

Twisted Fork also wrote

Isn't there more evidence to support the realities of the tablets, then there is to have cause to dismiss them? The Jesuits are real, the Peraltas are real, gold is real, the Dons probably weren't on vacation in Arizona, Waltz was real, The military trail was originally Spanish, were talking about the Peralta land grant and their family became extremely rich on cattle they purchased with gold digs,

What you have covered there is a very complex set of items; for the stone tablets it is a matter of opinion whether there is more evidence to show they are real than they are frauds, some would say yes they are real, others will say no they are frauds.  Several experts who did examine the stones, however briefly, stated their opinions that they were modern forgeries. The Jesuits were real, but today they energetically deny any involvement in illegal mining or hidden treasures in America.  The Peraltas were real, but the mines they had were in Mexico and near Black Canyon AZ, not in the Superstitions.  The Peralta land grant was one of the most massive frauds ever attempted in history, if you are interested in this look up the Reavis land grant fraud
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Reavis

I am not sure about the old military trail being originally Spanish but this is possible.  Waltz was real, the gold found under his bed was real.  It is a veritable minefield of fact mixed with fiction amigo, difficult to separate sometimes.
Oroblanco
 

There is still reason to believe that they mined in Arizona.  From what I understand, they were based in Sonora and one must wonder why they are and have been such a prominent part of Arizona history going back long before the tablets were ever known to exist.  Personally, the terms "experts" in this day and age is as wide an angle as choosing which toilet paper to by.  What credentials do they have to support anything historical that goes anywhere beyond theory.  Most believe that the pictographs of the West were done by the natives, when in reality most of them are really treasure maps drawn by the monks.  Native Americans would no sooner carve into an ancestors face as they would a mountain face as they believed all things have a soul.  Not to get back on Mormons again God forbid, but they have an entire University system that claims to be experts on American history after 150 years of what they call award wining archeology in the field and lab, thus proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that the book of Mormon is more than real in explicit detail;  even in the light of international world sciences that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don't know their butts from shinola.  Sorry guys, Joseph Smith lied to you big time when he tried to sell your hillbilly ancestors on the scam that the Native Americans were Hebrew and really the lost tribes of Israel.  More than efficient criminal DNA technology has already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are in fact Orientals and their is no debate on this from any college in the world.  Experts huh?  14,000,000 fine dressed clean shaven  church members can't be wrong? What if the world really is less than 26,000 years old?  Stone ages, but what about custom clay mixes or are the tablets stone or what?  Clue me in please.  This bearded longhair wants to know...............

Roy,

The Peraltas that had mines in the Bradshaws were not from the exact same family. The Peraltas that mined the Bradshaws had gone with De Anza to the Californias in 1776. After 60 or so years there, they kind of struck out, and were on their way back to Sonora when they found some rich gold deposits in the Bradshaws, and stayed for a while to work them.

The Peraltas whose family history (the history comes from both the Gonzales and Peralta Families) shows that they had mines in the Superstitions were from South of present day New Mexico (the exact name of the town eludes me). This is the same family (the main owners were the Gonzales Family) that had one rich gold mine somewhere in the Anza-Borrego Desert Area. That is where Adolph and Erwin Ruth come into the story.

The family history goes that the Peraltas were the main mine owners in the Supers, while their good friends, the Gonzales', were given part ownership of a couple of their mines. Because they had much less work, the Gonzales Group was finished up much quicker than the Peralta Group. The head Peralta told the Gonzales' to go ahead and wait for them at a certain Indian Encampment while they finished their work for the season. The Gonzales' left, and shortly after that, is when the massacre happened. The Gonzales Family History states that the Peraltas in Mexico blamed the Gonzales for the massacre because they left before the Peraltas (even though they were told to). The families for the most part never spoke again (except for a few members). Neither the Gonzales nor the Peralta Families ever went back North of the new border, because they considered it cursed. The Gonzales Family had mine maps in their possession for many years until about 1904 when Erwin Ruth saved a Mexican friend named Gonzales from an almost certain death in Mexican Government hands with a bribe, and was offered the maps as a sort of Thank You.

Best-Mike

[Juan de Grijalva (Grijalba).]

Mr. Fork,

"Personally, the terms "experts" in this day and age is as wide an angle as choosing which toilet paper to by.  What credentials do they have to support anything historical that goes anywhere beyond theory."

Your own "expertise" shows a decided lack of knowledge in historical facts.  Your ability to "judge" other's credentials is questionable, at best.

There are many members who post here who show obvious historical knowledge and the ability to research any topic.  Your own "skills" have only produced disjointed, historically fictional (unsubstantiated) posts.  In that regard, you are obviously holding hands with bowman, or are actually him.......with a slightly better proofreader.

My own research into the Stone Maps has taken me back to Juan de Grijalva (Grijalba).   I found that he had sent back a great deal more treasure in the first ship than in the second that returned at a later date.  While that could be explained by many factors, it does (at least) raise the suspicion that he may have held back a personal cache.  

Moving along, I found an account of Blas Peralta, who was from the Arispe district.  That would be the Peralta family of LDM legend.  I believe his son married the daughter of Don Salvador Julian Moreno, who had fallen on hard times.  Not being at home right now, I could be mistaken about who married who.

"In 1765, Moreno burdened his estate with a capellanía -- a lien that generated an annual interest payment of 5 percent -- to benefit his son Joseph Maria Buenaventura Moreno, who was studying for the priesthood at the Colegio de San Yldefonso in Mexico City. The principal totaled 4,000 pesos: half that amount came from the legacy (which Don Salvador and Doña Beatriz had matched) of Juan Joseph de Grijalba, a secular priest and family friend."  That lien kept the Moreno estate solvent for the next 30 years.  The Peralta lands were adjoined by holdings owned by Juan and Pedro Ballesteros.  That name may be familiar to you, but I have my doubts.

This is but a very small slice of the history that manages to find its way into the LDM legend.  The connections are nebulous, to be sure, but it's amazing how the same names, attached to treasure, seem to repeat themselves over the centuries.

I noticed you are now calling Waltz by his real name, which shows you have learned something by joining this topic.  Not bad considering the time you have put in here and your resistance to facts.

Joe Ribaudo

Well I see you two have done your homework and I can't question your sources at this point but still do not doubt that you are correct.  As a matter of fact, I have a Jesuit spirit guide who for one reason or another, still wanders the old military loop , walking from state to state, mine to mine as though he is damned in some way.  It's not like I can just talk to him and expect an answer at whim, but he has appeared to me once on the slope of an ancient Aztec gold mine here in Utah.  One day in a near foggy, crackling atmosphere that sometimes precedes a late summer mountain rain, I stopped to catch my breath for a few moments.  I was using a willow and following a strong pull on an exact course of 58 degrees compass, from a certain Spanish carved tree that dates back to the early 1700's.  As I gazed up the mountain trying to see through the mist pockets, I suddenly noticed a rather tall and plump fellow standing a bit off to my right and around 25 feet ahead of me.  It only took a second to realize that he was semi-transparent as well.  On his face was a kind and friendly smile as he stood on the slope above, standing in much the same stance as I.  He wore an out fit of crimson red;  a skull cap, a long sleeved vest like coat, a blouse with small ruffled edges and a full length skirt that went to 4 inches off the ground and he was wearing sandals.  Along the edges of his coat, sleeves and cap, there was an embroidered looping trim of gold 1 inch wide and a cross around his neck.  As I stood with my staff, so did he.  After gazing at him for near to 10 seconds, I adjusted my footing and hold on the slope as it was quite steep.  As I moved, so did he exactly.  and in my great surprise at the moment he gave me a great big grin for you see he was fully animated.  I grinned back with a chuckle and adjusted my footing again only this time taking a step up closer towards him, and again he moved as I exactly.  He grinned again and I about did an uncontrollable summer salt.  I turned at that moment to a friend just down the slope below me quickly speaking under my voice "Did you see that?"  They said what?  I turned back as I spoke out loud "That!" and in the same moment the Monk slowly faded from view with an even bigger smile on his face than before.  

This is how I treasure hunt and he has taught me many things in the wilderness that cannot be bound up in books.  He has bumped me from danger more than once.  First we go straight to the mine.  In the trips following, my past experience and his thoughtful approach leads me through various marker chains from the inside out and beyond.  This guy knows the whole system everywhere.  I figure he was pushing 60 years of age from the looks of him at which time he must have passed.  I haven't seen him since with my eyes, but he comes to me when another trip is in order and I never come home empty handed without finding direct visual contact of works done through his supervision by the hands of those under him.  

These are ancient work sites that predate the Peraltas and the gold that went back to Spain was collective from tunnels as far North as the mapped King's peak and possibly into Idaho.  Evidence of them have been found here in Utah, dating back to the early 1600's.  This means that they easily had some where in the area of 400 years on the trail in and around Arizona.  The Native works are the best.  Thanks for the info guys, hope we can figure more to share.  The Bowman Blind?  Well thats a matter of opinion. 

??

Quote:
    "He wore an out fit of crimson red;  a skull cap, a long sleeved vest like coat, a blouse with small ruffled edges and a full length skirt that went to 4 inches off the ground and he was wearing sandals.  Along the edges of his coat, sleeves and cap, there was an embroidered looping trim of gold 1 inch wide and a cross around his neck."

Is this the guy?
Cummon,Confess....

SH.

Very similar other than it wasn't so ornate.  The coat had no collar and there was a matching vest underneath with buttons.  The gold trim was only around the edges of his sleeves, his cap and the open edges of his coat.  The trim was about an inch wide like a looped scroll.  He also wore a golden rope around his waist that hung down some ways.  The colors are the same though.  There appeared to be a lacy white shirt collar showing at the neck line.

[very wide net]

Twisted Fork wrote

There is still reason to believe that they mined in Arizona. From what I understand, they were based in Sonora and one must wonder why they are and have been such a prominent part of Arizona history going back long before the tablets were ever known to exist. Personally, the terms "experts" in this day and age is as wide an angle as choosing which toilet paper to by. What credentials do they have to support anything historical that goes anywhere beyond theory. Most believe that the pictographs of the West were done by the natives, when in reality most of them are really treasure maps drawn by the monks. Native Americans would no sooner carve into an ancestors face as they would a mountain face as they believed all things have a soul. Not to get back on Mormons again God forbid, but they have an entire University system that claims to be experts on American history after 150 years of what they call award wining archeology in the field and lab, thus proving beyond any shadow of a doubt that the book of Mormon is more than real in explicit detail; even in the light of international world sciences that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they don't know their butts from shinola. Sorry guys, Joseph Smith lied to you big time when he tried to sell your hillbilly ancestors on the scam that the Native Americans were Hebrew and really the lost tribes of Israel. More than efficient criminal DNA technology has already proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they are in fact Orientals and their is no debate on this from any college in the world. Experts huh? 14,000,000 fine dressed clean shaven church members can't be wrong? What if the world really is less than 26,000 years old? Stone ages, but what about custom clay mixes or are the tablets stone or what? Clue me in please. This bearded longhair wants to know...............

It seems that I have hit a nerve.  You cast a very wide net in this post and I must beg your indulgence in order to attempt to address your several different points.

Yes the Peraltas mined gold in Arizona and silver in Sonora, just no record of them ever owning anything in the Superstitions.  I have researched Arizona history and have not found the Peraltas to have been all that important or influential, in fact it is a bit of a "hunt" to find records mentioning them at all.  

Most of the pictographs in the American West are drawn by MONKS?  Have you any way to show some evidence to back this assertion up?  If not, I will continue to trust that the vast majority of pictographs found in the American West are in fact drawn by Amerindians, though there are a handful which appear to have been done by foreign visitors.  

You don't like the opinions of those several experts who examined the Peralta Stones and stated they were modern frauds?  This could be a personal bias on your own part, for I have to wonder just what your reaction would be if they had pronounced them to be utterly genuine?  Would you still hold them in such contempt?  

Back on the Mormons again?  I don't know what bone you have to pick with that religious group, but since I am not a member of their church I can't really say just what they are responsible for.  I do suspect that those original gold plates very well could have been quite different in origins and meaning from what Smith deciphered, (the site where he found them is not far from my boyhood home, along the Susquehanna river in NE PA) I have not been able to either examine them or see photos of them so cannot say for certain.  I have not seen a lot of harm done by the Latter Day Saints, which is more than I can say for a few religious groups.

You state that the Amerindians are absolutely Orientals and DNA backs you up so there is no debate?  Apparently you have not heard about DNA Haplogroup X, a minority of Amerindians who have absolutely undeniably European ancestry. The History Channel ran a program not long ago titled "Ice Age Columbus" if you have a chance I suggest you see it, you might be surprised.  A side note here but Thomas Jefferson and William Penn thought that the Amerindians were in fact some of the Lost Tribes of Israel, and there are cultural parallels found among them.  This of course does not prove the book of Mormon to be true.  Check out
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/features/dna2.htm

The world is less than 26,000 years old?  Have you studied geology Mr Fork?  Just my opinion but any serious lost mine hunter or prospector needs at least a basic understanding of geology, and once you have it those extremely young ages proposed for Earth become impossible.  Are you aware that the true age of Creation has been calculated by religious scholars using the clues hidden in the bible, and their figure is virtually the same as the scientific age?  The error comes in when folks try to get the age of the world by adding up the years of the Patriarchs, when no where in the bible does it say that this will give you the age of the world.  Remember, "with the Lord a day is a thousand years" and this appears twice, if you do the math you don't come up with 26,000.

Back to those stone tablets - do you know that one of those experts who examined them found unmistakable marks made by an electric drill bit?  I am fairly sure they didn't have electric drills in the southwest in 1847.  

I will take it as a "YES" that you do have and make use of a Familiar Spirit, which you have mentioned several times including one which you identify as a dead Jesuit Priest.  As a self-professed Born Again Christian, you must already know what the bible says about using familiar spirits right?  If not, check out
 
1 Samuel 28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...?search=1 Samuel+28&version=KJV
1 Chronicles 10:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...=1 Chronicles+10:13&version=KJV

Good luck and good hunting Twisted Fork, I hope you will find the treasures that you seek, and that you will tell your Spirit Guide to go back where he came from..
Oroblanco
 

These so called experts examined them after they had already been in the hands of white men;  God only knows what may have transpired with those clever rascals.  Ever heard of a bow drill?  Ship builders and Masons been using them for a little while now I think.  Good for setting pegs in timbers too.  Picking at the mix you have covered, God destroyed the earth at least once and therefore it makes it impossible to determine just how old it really is.  If I told you how the pictographs worked, I would be showing you where my stash is in a predetermined number of locations.  Well over 200 tribes of the Native Americans have been studied and all of them are of oriental decent.  If you should study both sides of the fence in regards to Mormonism and Masonry, you will soon find out for yourself that Smith was a crock.  Further study of the Bible will reveal to you that when God kicked Cane out of the homeland, he sniveled in fear over the fact Quote: "But the other men will kill me."  Looks like traditional views get scraped again.  The earth was already populated when God placed Adam the only father of Israel on the earth.  Looks to me like there was a previous creation through Satan of whom The Father gave this world to as King.  Our King the Christ's time has not yet come as he is bringing his kingdom with him from above after Satan's kingdom is destroyed by fire.  It is a literal formation described in Revelation.  As for me the treasure hunter, I am a born again Christian;  this means that I am sealed in my forehead with the promise I shall not suffer death like the majority.  In Christ, a promise is a promise.  I am not a necromancer nor do I serve wicked Kings.  I do not worship the Devil and have and always will make every effort to burn Satan at his own game, with his own tools and in his own back yard.  Gee, I thought I was being nice in a mention of where the real no longer lost Dutchman is.  Father said all things must first be revealed.

Mr. Fork,

"These so called experts examined them after they had already been in the hands of white men;  God only knows what may have transpired with those clever rascals.  Ever heard of a bow drill?  Ship builders and Masons been using them for a little while now I think."

Interesting......seeing you denigrate the professionals who examined the Stone Maps.  You follow that up with an "expert" opinion of the bow drill, and who used them and when.  Do you have any sources that you use as a basis for either opinion.

Having had conversations with two of the three professional who examined the tablet, and were willing to put their names at the conclusion of their opinions, I feel slightly more qualified to judge their motives and expertise in the matter than those who only read the article.  On the other hand, I would probably bet money that you have never seen that article.......right?

After fifty trips into the Superstitions, perhaps you would be willing to share a few photos with us.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

Nope, sorry guys but that would be cheating.  It's enough that you have motorized vehicles, roads, the ability to carry mass quantities of water, and 10 different versions as to where the mine is.  I found and figured the mine site with the tablets by camping in the area for 3 weeks to start, using a very powerful dowser to get close, one that was never wrong once in 34 years, and I didn't carry a camera because I was poor and scraping just to be there.  Found it in 82', haven't been back since 86.  The forum of the fool tells you where it is.  The proof is in the pudding, go see for yourself.

Mr. Fork,

All this success with finding lost Spanish mines, and you still have to save up for a month, just for gas money.   See anything wrong with that scenario?

Joe Ribaudo

Sorry I didn't explain myself clearer.  That was about 28 years ago.  One time, I rode a Kawasaki 100cc Enduro nearly 500 miles and lived on 4 large pieces of beef jerky and water for four days in the desert to get my mind right about the mine.  The motor blew out one of it's two rings from out of the tail pipe, but it still got me home.   Knowledge is power.  Gold is power.  Knowledge of where tons of gold bullion is accessible from is a danger to your health and that of your community due to the corruption of Roosevelt's government, that took the control of your money out of the hands of the people and gave it to ZOG;  better know as the Federal Reserve.  You can bet that all of that crap about setting aside national parks for your enjoyment , was really a scam to keep you the American public from getting your hands on all of the natural resources they contain within their boundaries.  Nature reserves my butt.  Wasn't it special as to how they baffled you with Roosevelt's big grin and his bragging about how wonderful his hunting excursions were?  A big hurra, bully my boy.  Now that's entertainment.  Thank Jesus all of the gold is God's.  A curse on those who have brought Christian America to the edge of the sword.

Evening Twisted fork:  I will not get into a religious discussion with you, simply because after yeah many thousands of years fighting, nothing has been settled, despite uncounted millions of dead simply because of minor differences.

But I do want to get into it with you on this spiritual guide business.

For some reason I never had a single doubt that I was supposed to find Tayopa ??  Why?  It just wasn't logical, hundreds had failed before me over the centuries, many have died.  No. it was not a  hope, but a firm belief???.

As things developed, it turned out that I was effectively just a tool,  apparently I was/am being coached and helped  by who or what?  Every time that I was stumped or needed a bit of financial help, the answer always arrived.  However, It was never more than I needed to continue to the next step, but it did arrive.  Eventually I became so complacent knowing that it would come to pass, that I just relaxed and waited for it to arrive.  It still is working out that way.

Is this what could be called a spiritual adviser, or am I simply more intelligent and psychic that I hope,  and can cause these things to happen, even while I know the answer subconsciously??

I am interested in your opinion, but without any religious overtones.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Good evening Twisted Fork:  A side thing, but bow drills are useless for making side cuts - routing - as would be required in making the tablets.  They 'can' drill holes fairly efficiently and also start fires.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Well honestly Jose, I would say you have a friend in the Holy Spirit.  A willing spirit guide is readily available in any one of these locations where the dead hold secrets and could be of assistance to your perception, but there is reason for caution if they should try to make themselves too familiar.  If you start to hear a voice talking to you beyond the quiet voice you know as your God, test that spirit like a pest.  Corner them in control and ask them just what it is that they want and what are they doing here in the first place.  You may begin to fell drawn in a particular direction or begin seeing your surroundings in a different light.  Legends speak of seeing through the eyes of the dead and finding trails that once were but are no longer as you experience a panorama of their memory.  This may only last within a single canyon and only upon the first visit and I know from experience that when you return to that canyon a second time, it will look much different from years of erosion.  This can happen without you even realizing it as a spirit may be sent under the control of the Holy Spirit as a guide that helps only you right from the start and blinds and drives away all others in any number of ways causing them to loose interest promptly.  The experience is similar to being downloaded and the program being run at a required time.  For the most part as humans, we cannot do otherwise, as this world is far more spiritual than it is material.  It pays to be a good listener with patience.  Sounds like there is something out there with your name on it.  There are times and places to be alone for your eyes only.  

A bow drill could be set in a clamped and slotted jig with a little imagination;  those were smart boys.  Hope you guys got a gander at those other maps before they vanish into thin air.

[very]

HOLA amigos,

Twisted Fork wrote

Picking at the mix you have covered, God destroyed the earth at least once and therefore it makes it impossible to determine just how old it really is.

Well amigo that "mix" you refer to is my attempt to reply to the mix of various different subjects you posted. ;)  The bible states that the world was destroyed with a FLOOD which killed off LIVING things on land, without utterly destroying the planet. The Lord is not wasteful with his creation.  I suggest you read a little on Geology, it is very helpful in seeking lost mines and ledges, and there is no real disagreement between Science and God, only among some preachers who apparently are misreading or misunderstanding scripture and/or science.  The laws of science are the laws of Nature; the laws of Nature are the laws of God.  The ancient Hebrew word for "nature" is the same word as for "god".  We fall into what seems to be contradictions when we forget these little facts.

Twisted Fork also wrote

If you should study both sides of the fence in regards to Mormonism and Masonry, you will soon find out for yourself that Smith was a crock.  Further study of the Bible will reveal to you that when God kicked Cane out of the homeland, he sniveled in fear over the fact Quote: "But the other men will kill me."  Looks like traditional views get scraped again.  The earth was already populated when God placed Adam the only father of Israel on the earth.  Looks to me like there was a previous creation through Satan of whom The Father gave this world to as King. 

Well amigo I have studied these very subjects you speak of, possibly in greater depth than even you have. As I mentioned earlier I suspect that the gold plates found by Smith could have been genuine and still be completely NOT related to the Bible in any way.  There was a nautical civilization in the ancient world who DID make and use gold sheets or plates to record important documents (like treaties) but they were very far from being Jewish or Christian (at least not for centuries later) so my suspicion is that Smith found a record of one of their visits, possibly a treaty or transfer of realty that they wanted recorded.  I have no way to verify or disprove my suspicion, as we are not allowed access to those plates not even photographs. 

As for Cain being outcast and the reference to other people, you may be mistaken about attributing these other people to Satan, for within Genesis we are told of the first creation of Man, (ordinary people, Gentiles) and later of the creation of Adam and Eve, whom are in effect the first Hebrews but not the first "men".  Check out

First humans created
Genesis 1:27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...search=Genesis+1:27&version=KJV

Adam and Eve created, AFTER humans were already trotting around
Genesis 5:1 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...?search=Genesis+5:1&version=KJV

You didn't think the Bible was simply repeating the story did you?  If it were just a repeat of the story, then the male children of Adam and Eve could not have found wives to marry since there were no other people.  I really am not sure where you are getting some of your views as stated, but a re-read of the scriptures could change some of your views. 

One other thing amigo - in case you didn't know, our mutual friend Real de Tayopa is famous for being the man who found (and now owns) the famous and long-lost Tayopa mines in Mexico.  I look forward to reading his book when he releases it, quite an adventure-filled life.  He has provided photos, maps, latitudes and longitudes, along with certified assay reports on the ore samples he brought out.  If you got the impression that I am "picking" on you for your claim to have found the Lost Dutchman, be assured that I grilled Don Jose even worse back when I first learned he had found it.  (I had plans or more correct, HOPES to go and look for Tayopa myself one day, so was very shocked when I heard about him!) 

My apologies to our readers for drifting so far off-topic AGAIN.  To try to tie this back in to the Peralta Stones, if something spiritual has guided you to find something, there is really no way to prove it. 

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.   
Oroblanco

 

In an attempt to leave Mormonism for what it is worth, I was raised in it and know very well what the works of the devil are compared to those of the Holy Spirit.  Documents surfaced back in the 50's that were long forgotten and found on accident deep in the storage of their vault.  There were pages of practice notes in Joseph Smith's own hand writing that he and Sidney Rigdon used to compile the scam know as the book of mormon.  The plates were brass and made by their buddy Oliver in his blacksmith shop back on the farm.  Smith's own wife Emma, told the parents of his numerous brides that he married behind her back, that it was all a scam and this was after Joseph denied saying anything about polygamy right in front of all of his brides and their families during a meeting in the forest.  Emma found out about the brides and cornered him right in front of them.  Emma found out from a newspaper article over the concerns of the new commandment of polygamy and so Smith and his buddies burned down the print shop that night in anger of Emma cornering him.  The governor had him thrown in Jail with his pals and the parents and families of his own brides rose up in a mob and killed him for conning them.  The details of Emma cornering him at the meeting were on church documents as the minutes were kept.  He burned down the paper print shop on the night of the same date.  There is piles of other evidence just like this.  It was and is a crock.

Jesus came from the blood of Adam;  He was of the house of Israel and the tribe of Levi.  What else matters with the others who did not attend our alters?  We are chosen of the house.  Science is a slippery rock at best and the quickest way to get into trouble is to walk arm and arm with men.  Your salvation is your thing alone.  The monks who made the so called Peralta tablets were experts in all things due to years of works in the monasteries of Spain.  Many of which were child prodigies of vision and skill beyond your imaginations.   They were hand picked to oversee the King's treasures in the New World.  Go figure..........

[We are chosen of the house.]

HOLA amigos,

Twisted Fork,
Without addressing the rest of your post, as it seems this has been a waste of both our time, I do have to ask you about one statement.

Twisted Fork wrote

We are chosen of the house.

Whom do you include in that "WE" of this statement? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

Those who settled Europe from the Holy Land and their descendants.  I am Scottish sir and of a royal house.  So were the Spanish.

To further your education on Joe Smith's scam,  look into the Italian witch that wrote the first edition of the Satanic bible, that Smith and his brother got out of the Mason's library Palmyra Chapter 12.  In it, you will find the story of Mormo, God of the Gouls and his followers the Mormons.  "They who seek after the dead"  The cult first rose up in Europe, 200 years before Smith and they locals killed everyone of them, their animals and burned their farms to the ground, after they were caught in the forest with a kidnapped baby of which they had hung upside down and cut the throat of to drain into a goblet, that which was then passed around between them.

[very]

HOLA Twisted Fork (and everyone)

Well thanks for the 'education', and now I know we have very different ideas and views on many things amigo.  I am tempted to ask how you make the connection between Smith's reported angel Moroni and Mormo, which really just looks like it is spelled similarly to what the Latter Day Saints are referred to, but doubtless it makes perfect sense to you.  I notice that you state you are Scottish rather than American, and that you made no mention of the Christians of other lands such as Africa, Asia, etc but again it must make perfect sense to you.  I am respectfully in disagreement on this point and quite a few others you have stated, and wish you good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the truth one day.
Oroblanco

12 tribes of Israel.....White people....Ouch!

Surely your referring to the "Other Men" Cain mentioned, who have every right like all men to approach our Lord and Savior should they desire to do so, but as the book of book clearly portrays, you are talking about my ancestors enemies and if any of them made it onto the Ark, it was two by two;  male and female, according to the standards and law of the day.  Where do you think racism was spawned in the first place?  We are all unique animals in the wilderness.

[it was two by two]

Twisted Fork wrote

but as the book of book clearly portrays, you are talking about my ancestors enemies and if any of them made it onto the Ark, it was two by two;  male and female, according to the standards and law of the day.

Are you absolutely certain of this amigo?  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...?search=Genesis+7:2&version=KJV

Twisted Fork also wrote

Where do you think racism was spawned in the first place?

In ignorance.

Twisted Fork also wrote

We are all unique animals in the wilderness.

 

Like it said............and to further it's description, God's people have never been eaters of men;  Cain's worst fear.

Roy,

"Racism" and "ignorance" all in the same post.  Somehow that seems very appropriate in this particular conversation.

Very nice,

Joe

[God's people have never been eaters of men]

MUCHAS gracias amigo for the kind words! <blush> Once in a while I find an acorn.

Twisted Fork wrote

Like it said............and to further it's description, God's people have never been eaters of men;

Where do you get these ideas amigo?  Are you absolutely CERTAIN that "God's people" have NEVER been eaters of men?  Better re-read your scripture amigo!

"So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...h=2%20Kings+6:28-30&version=KJV
 
Oroblanco
 

I think if you read through the "entire" text again, you will find that it was an unnecessary act and that they should have had faith and waited.  You will know them by their works;  your salvation is not based on your bloodline, rather than by the quality of your spirit.  Kazars or Pharasees as an "example,"  are not of that bloodline nor do they have the inherent qualities to be spiritual in Christ.  There is a reason why there were Angels with flaming swords at entrances to the Garden of Eden;  it wasn't to keep the beasts in that were with Adam and Eve, but to keep the unclean beasts out.

[If anything I have said is offensive to anyone, my sincere apologies as NO offense was intended.]

Twisted Fork wrote

I think if you read through the "entire" text again, you will find that it was an unnecessary act and that they should have had faith and waited.

Are you dodging what I just pointed out to you?  You stated that God's people were NEVER eaters of men, and I showed you this is incorrect.  It is easy in hindsight for us to say yes, they were in error, yet they were not punished for their error as in their eyes, with a powerful enemy outside the walls and no help appearing, the situation seemed hopeless to them. 

Now I find discussion of scripture interesting, and politix less so, and neither subject is really within the scope of this forum.  I have half-expected to see our posts go "poof" when one of the moderators should spot how far off topic we have gone.  I was NOT trying to irritate you by pointing out places in the bible that conflict with what you have said, just wanted to point out that some of the things you have been saying are incorrect, at least in the words stated.  I am fairly familiar with the bible amigo, I hope our banter on it has at least encouraged you to read the bible some more.   

My apologies for this very-far-off topic discussion we have had, I will try to refrain from posting any more religious-based or political based posts.  I have no idea how to tie this back into the subject at hand.  If anything I have said is offensive to anyone, my sincere apologies as NO offense was intended.
Oroblanco

Well, I think we brought up the topic of the Jesuits some where along the line and every bit of this ever widening thread is right in line with how they the monks thought about the world, the other men and their tablets.  Like I said, salvation is a spiritual experience and the very reason God titled those Folks his chosen people (who just happen to be White) is because there are more lovers in Christ and they cannot do otherwise; it is inherent, it is written and they are set apart;  get over it.  The entire reason why these treasures are set aside for them is because all of the gold is God's.  If someone else gets there hands near it, they just might be asking for it.  I would again like to thank the Peraltas for all of their hard work in Jesus, you hope.

TW,

The problem with trying to get a conversation going on the Stone Maps, is that those who have actually researched the subject......over many years, have discussed it to death.  Personally, I have disclosed everything I have discovered over the last forty years, or so.

In those discussions, we have had to contend with every twisted blind fork that cames along.  It's like the game....Wack-A-Mole.  Every time you put the mole back in his hole, another pops right up.

Here is the Stone Map Trail, laid out on a topographic map.  I have posted it a number of times.....in a number of places, and no one can find a single (reasonable) fault with it.  The Stone Maps are, amazingly, to scale.  No need to decipher it, just need to be able to read a map.  The maps show specific locations (old mines) and landmarks.  Almost every LDM story is  woven into those maps.



The best way to get the conversation going, is to ask a specific question or make a statement of what you believe to be "fact".  Perhaps a good conversation could be started by discussing why my map is wrong.  With so many people claiming to have figured out the maps, I expect the error of my ways being pointed out, will come fast and furious.

Take care,

Joe

Folks are quite free to share anything and everything they can find in relation to these often questioned works of art.  The more we can dredge up the better it gets.  It doesn't hurt to know all you can about the characters and their motives behind the use and need of producing these works in the first place.  Knowing how they thought, how they lived, the characters of all of their enemies whoever they are and their perception of their God, all contributes to us the hunters in figuring out the strategies of covering their tracks, which is your first real stumbling block.  There is an easy way to go about this and then there is blunder of which they counted on seeing in you as part of that strategy.  Where you track and search instinctively through first impression is there greatest strength and the best of their allies.  Call it a carrot, a bread trail, the distraction of decoys or the path of least resistance of which the combined effort would most likely lead you into the hands of the Apache if not abandoned starvation itself.  This system was and still is vividly a well laid military operation.  The tablets are in a code within a code within a code, according to the code these Monks learned and lived back in their homeland Spain.  The constant threat of French occupation created institution, carefully devised and carried out in fine detail these plans were an act of self survival and defense against all comers.  He who has the Gold rules.  They were so good at it, that not even the King's new Zionist party the Franciscans, were ever able to crack it.

Hello Mr. Fork, I  still have a intense interest in the Supers,Peraltas and Aztec trails.The map you posted in Blue I have seen before but can't recall where. In the book Thunder God"s Gold,by Barry Storm, states the Dutchman,Waltz said you could see the "military trail" from the gold cave,but could not spot it from the military trail.In another chapter he writes about another prospecter in the late 1920's who found a bell shaped opening that went 13 rope latters  down,and writes again  about a" hidden valley",with German old style dynamite fuse"s and Spanish muskets laying around.He also says the Indians covered up most of the lower elevation mines,but left the higher ones open.The Peraltas put axe head type stones high up in the Sagoro"s as trail markers and used this like a modern day highway. Its my opinon the "stone tablets"are trail markers ,but not to treasure, {unless they were in Gold or silver}.

The blue map is named "Chad's Map"  Much of what you have mentioned sounds correct in my memory.  These were the first books and legends I remember reading long ago as well.  I remember somewhere it was said quoting Waltz, that the December sunset would shine into the mouth of his mine.  This caused me to wonder whether if he was speaking about a pit mine with portal below, or a mine site or vein with more than one entrance as this was a common method used by Spanish miners I have come to realize here in Utah.  The term mine used to apply to a mountain that may have had several different and separate tunnels, and still retain the title of being a mine;  like a river with different pockets far apart from each other.  Waltz was of course German and leaned towards the remains of the old world in translations.  The site I have been referring to in the "played as fools thread,"  has a concealed tunnel in one canyon, and a funnel with an entrance entering from the side, lower down on the slope;  all concealed at this time.  I have learned that the tablets were a landmark yes and were never intended to be removed from their location.  They were positioned where they were so as to mark off one's first step in triangulation leading North up onto the Salt.  One would lay the tablets on the ground and stretch out thin paper over them and then charcoal trace out the reliefs,  These sheets could then be used as overlays and folds similar to old Mason Pirate Maps.  From what I gather, the "Old Spanish Military trail" ran over to the giant  "S"  turn in the Salt River next to Black Mountain, and then up river.  This " S " can be found in the back bottom edge of the swirl of the skirt, on the "Witch Priest" who is holding a divine cross in his hands on the tablets.

There is a very famous wall painting from way back, of a group of Spanish Dons and such on horse back.  The horses have rings for hooves and a white priest is painted as thought he is standing on the hill above them with a staff.  I believe this party is passing South by the witch hat shaped peak "Black Mountain" and the view is of the west slope looking East.  The peak is just South of the Giant " S " in the Salt River.

 I have also come to realize that each Don made his own maps based on the graphics he copied from a hand picked palm sized stone, as viewed through his miner's glass.  Each mountain has such a record storage from every Don that took possession of it over hundreds of years.  It can be found on the surface over the heart section of the rich contact of the lode below ground.  The section is first cleared and manicured of most fragments.  It will stand out because you will notice individual stones sitting here and there on little shelfs;  stones that are not native to the slope and surroundings or they may be worn differently as though they came from the stream below.  These are natural scaled down models of the mountain and amazingly enough, one with an eye glass will see the same graphics on these stones as are used on the paper maps.  They can even show you naturally where the gold outcrop was before the tunnel was started.  How's that for prospecting?  Nature repeats itself on many scales.  Every mine has such a map deposit and every mountainous mineral zone has a cornerstone position for it's records like the legend box on a road map.  Thus the tablets:  "Study the Map"  "Study the Heart"

[the very reason God titled those Folks his chosen people (who just happen to be White)]

Twisted Fork wrote

Like I said, salvation is a spiritual experience and the very reason God titled those Folks his chosen people (who just happen to be White)

I respectfully disagree on this (among other things) and suggest we keep our discussion to the subject at hand?  I am sure there are religious and or political forums where that kind of talk is most welcome but we have very much bent the rules here.   

Cactusjumper wrote

Perhaps a good conversation could be started by discussing why my map is wrong.  With so many people claiming to have figured out the maps, I expect the error of my ways being pointed out, will come fast and furious.

Well I took the bait and studied your map theory over an hour with a magnifying glass, and could not spot any glaring problems.  What I didn't think of is that it is TOO perfect a fit.  Map makers of the 1800's were not that good, especially in scales and distances.  So okay, if it is made in the 1930's-40's then the art of cartography is markedly better, but is it logical to expect that a person making the maps would get it that correct?  Doesn't that fact <too much accuracy> strike you as peculiar?  Thank you in advance, 

Oroblanco
 
 

Dear OroBlanco;
At least our esteemed associate, Twisted Fork, is giving the Jesuits a well-deserved break:
They were so good at it, that not even the King's new Zionist party the Franciscans, were ever able to crack it.
 
Your friend;
LAMAR

Welcome back my Esteemed friend  Lamar.    Just remember, there were two separate groups. the ones that did very excellent work and actually helped the Indians, were not the mining group. In fact didn't even know of them.

I still think that the stones were created to further the gigantic land  grab by supposedly establishing  a prior claim.  Unfortunately, the actual location where they were to be accidentally found, was lost / incorrect, so they were not recoverd in time to be of any use in the court claim, so they were abandoned and their existance was simply forgotten.  They lay there until our modern  gentleman accidentally found them.

The ability and topigrafical knowledge did not exist among even the titled personel in the days of the supposed early mining, especially the early Spanish miners, unless they were Jesut.  To have brought in a profesional would have meant another would be privy to the locations, one that could effectively pinpoint it later for personal purposes or for another.  

Twisted Fork, most early Spanish mining utilized fire to help ventilate the actual workings. So they built shafts for the rising heat to escape thus drawing in enough fresh air to allow the miners to work.  For this reason, you almost always will find a separate shaft in old Spamish mines of any depth.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Mr.R.D.T., Are you saying in effect the stone tablets were used as a sort of boundry markers to show land grabs. Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same. This is not a attack on your interesting theory. I realize it is not easy being the King of Tayopa.

Mr.Fork thanks for your long response it was very good imformation.

[years]

Roy,

I originally placed the Stone Maps on a Topo' around 40+ years ago.  I was a pretty excited lad, and completely convinced I had discovered the path to Jesuit treasure.  My eyes were full of dollar signs, and my thought process did not really extend into the mechanics of creating such a map.  At the time, the perfection seemed a solid verification of my conclusions.  In fact, I traced the trail (from a picture of the Stone Maps) off of the ridge and laid it on a Topo'.........it fit perfectly, including each and every turn all the way into West Boulder.

That being said, anyone who has spent years in those mountains could easily hand draw a very accurate map.  I did it a number of times as a callow youth.  I believe that Tom Kollenborn, Ron Feldman, Clay Worth, Bob Corbin, Dave Leach and any number of old time Dutch Hunters could hand draw a very detailed map.  My guess is that a number of the younger pups could do it as well.

Should you come to the Rendezvous, you will meet many of those old timers and youngsters.  If you have ever wondered about a certain place in the Superstitions, had a question about some part of the legends or history, there will be one or more people there who can give you a qualified answer.

It was a long time dream of mine to create such an event.  Others have taken that dream and made it into a reality.  My sharp and caustic manner would never have allowed the Rendezvous to grow into the place to be.  I am more than good with that.

None of us are growing any younger, so our chances to meet.....face to face, with the friends we have made on the Internet are growing scarcer with each passing year.  Some, like Cubfan (Paul) realized that and bit the bullet.  This will be his third year at the event.  This will be Gossamer's second year.

I can't name all of the old timers who will be at this years event, without their permission, but I am fairly certain that no one will be disappointed.  I know I won't.

Not to denigrate my friends who have come to another conclusion, some with good cause, but my own research into Jesuit history has convinced me that Jesuit treasure is in the same category as the Seven Cities of Gold........A dream that just won't go away.

Take care,

Joe 

hi Cactus my buddy:  you posted -->

 my own research into Jesuit history has convinced me that Jesuit treasure is in the same category as the Seven Cities of Cobola.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HMM, how do you explain Tayopa, among others?  And Yes, the 7 ciudades de Cibola do exist. They are in the Valle de Conajaqui in Sinaloa next to the Durango border.   It is  Mexican national treasure site now, and the UN has it in it's sights.

Incidentally can you explain why the resident Jesuit at Yecora was so excited when he saw my logo about Tayopa?  When I said "yes. I have it" , he practically gave me an 'order',  that the next time that I passed through Yecora, that  I was to stop at his home and talk about Tayopa all night.  He said that he had a huge pot of the best coffee in Mexico.

Don Jose de La Mancha

good morning Ghost Dog:  Hmm did you know that I once saw one?  He was huge, about 90+# and black.  He appeared on top of a vertical cliff to my left, then ran across the small mesa to the right to above another vertical cliff, where he simple disappeared.  The Local Indians told me that he was a ghost dog, they are always huge and black.  They show you where there  a treasure or a vein.  Actually he did run over the junction of the rich AU vein for the Bonanza and the San Francisco claims??

Are you one?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You posted -->

Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simply because they would be using an old law to bolster the claim,  since they couldn't produce a valid series of documents from many different departments  -  The Mexicans inherited a fetish from Spain, copies, copies, copies, and more copies -   It would have been almost impossible to falsify the necessary documents.

The custom and effective law they were trying to take advantage of, was the old law of continuous occupancy, whether legally there or not.   If one stayed continuously on a parcel of land for 10 years without being served a legal order of eviction, the land was theirs for claiming.

So if they could show a nebulous claim by way of the Stones, they had  a chance of winning.

I can only assume that they had the stones made, then commissioned an employee to take them out to the superstitions, bury them at  a predetermined spot,  to be later, casually found by a Paid, independent  person, to be produced in court as evidence of prior residency /ownership. due to the 10 year law.

Unfortunately the one that did the burying wasn't to sharp and buried them where there was no specific land mark nearby, so they were never found in time for the trial.  Afterwards they would have been simply another Albatross, with possibly other legal complications.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
.
You also posted -->

 I realize it is not easy being the King of Tayopa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
Sigh, you are sooo right hehhehehe  Heavy hangs the head with a crown.  but when did I earn that title?     I still haven't produced physical proof in here yet??
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Until I saw the Dutchman in here, my only contact with the Superstitions was July 56, when I was returning in a Stearman from the Spruce Budworm project in Canada, I decided to fly down Roosevelt Lake to sight see.  I entered the north end in beautifully clear weather, but inside of a few minutes a huge cumulus formed, dropped down to cover the mountains of the surrounding Superstitions, then commenced to rain like h---.  I couldn't climb up to get clear, so was committed to fly about 20 ft above the winding east road following it out .

By the time that I managed to exit the southern entry of the Lake, into the clear weather again, I had about 2 ft of water sloshing around inside of the cockpit.  Despite two slow barrel rolls, it was still draining when I finally landed at Phoenix and taxied to the Marsh Aviation hanger.

Soo yes, the Superstitions themselves mean a lot to me, I almost became one of the lost ones.  I am sure that if I hadn't survived, that some how I would have been entered into the story as another victim of the Dutchman legend.  hehehe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Gold]

 Don Jose, my friend,
 
You have misquoted me.  I wrote "The Seven Cities of Gold".  That was a myth long before the Spanish arrived in the New World, or before Coronado gazed "across the sandy bed of the river", three miles from the Zuni pueblos.

I am unable to explain Tayopa nor the "Sinaloa" Seven Cities.  I know a bit about Tayopa, but nothing about the latest claims for the Seven Cities of Gold.

It's more than possible that you have attached more importance to your encounter with the Jesuit, than it deserves.  An intelligent man, knowing the stories of Jesuit treasure and Tayopa, would have a keen interest in someone who states he has found......either.  If that man happened to be a Jesuit, the interest might be expected to be intense.  That does not verify the claims of  such a mine or any treasure.

Considering the things that have been attributed to the Jesuits of that era, it seems inconceivable that the order would have "lost" this mine in the first place.  They were inveterate and detailed record keepers.......somewhere.

Since the priest "had the best coffee in Mexico", can you tell us how the conversation went when you surely visited him to sip a few cups?

Thanks Don Jose,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
 Strictly as an aside, the fables of Sinoloa, Cibola and the Seven Cities have been floating around Spain for at least three centuries before Columbus first set sail and claimed the New World. This should tell you exactly how *factual* or *real* this particular fable is, my friend.

It seems that the story of a city of gold did not exist until the Conquistadores brought it with them from Spain. Nowhere in pre-Columbian history can one find a single reputable reference of any such city or area in the New World and it was not until that Conquistadores started grilling the natives about the Seven Cities that they sort of concocted a story to fuel the imaginations of the Conquistadores.

It's all pretty funny in retrospect. The Consquistadores would come upon a native settlement, then enquire through intrepretors, in which direction did the fabulous city or cities, lay. As one chronicler happened to note, it seemed that the natives were leading the Spaniards in one huge, roughly circular shaped pattern. In other words, the natives couldn't tell the Spaniards where the city was, because it only existed in the minds of the Conquistadores.

It must have been a great source of humor for the nativies, because they managed to rid themselves of the foreign invaders without having to resort to war, although it was only a temporary reprieve, as things turned out. The American Indians were doomed to have their societies irrevocuably altered with the arrival of the European colonists and as time past, virtually every inch of the vastnes of the New World was explored, and much like Atlantis, over time the fable of Sinaloa, Cibola and the Seven Lost Cities of Gold slowly faded away to become Spanish bedtime stories.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

That is exactly the history of the Seven Cities of Gold, as I have read and understand it.  Believe we have gone over that a few times here, so I didn't get too detailed in my post.  On the other hand, you have recounted that history, in a short post, better than I could.

Your friend,

Joe

Good afternoon gentlemen: I had a long post to answer both of you, but I was called away before I posted it, when I came back it was gone - while I was away, Norton came on, scanned ,  and restarted my computer -  something about a porno thingie from Lamar?     Hehhe  sorry my friend,  couldn't resist, but it did disappear.

About the seven cities of Gold/Cibola, which are the  same, identical thing, yes, you are 100% correct.   However, it was utilized by the King to stimulate exploration in the new lands without the Royal treasury financing the expenses. The ones that did explore, paid their own expenses in return for a charter or concession from the king regarding anything of value that they might find and lands.

By a curious coincidence Estaban, in the final stages of his remarkable journey, did pass by The  7 ciudades of Cibola, and only seeing it from a distance, glowing golden in the sunlight, used it as a base for his claim to fame.

SO, YES, the 7 ciudades de Cibola in question in Mexico do exist and are known today.  I agree that they are not the original ones, but they WERE what most of the early explorers were after.  "Estaban's Cities".

Don Jose de La Mancha

The scale of the title "city" in the mind of a Native may simply be a larger than usual village, or the location of the main chief or the most powerful and well know shaman of each tribe.  Of course with the previous posts being the more than likely scenario about Cibola, It is quite possible that the legend refers to 7 villages or encampments below 7 rich mines of pure gold.  In the old West, the Utes were ruled by 12 brothers;  the most powerful and warlike was Wakara.  (1800's)  A Shaman of the 16th century was remembered even in Wakara's day.  The gold of 7 mines exists in the Ute legends to this day.  These mines belonged to the ancestors (Aztecs), for the Utes had no use of the gold other than as as a spiritual icon.  This famous Shaman encountered the first Spaniards in a village at the South end of Utah lake in the year 1562.  They were two scouts sent ahead of their party from the now Colorado river.  As one of these two scouts roamed around the Native encampment, he noticed a young brave emptying out his medicine bag on a fur that laid in front of him.  From the bag rolled out a large pure gold nugget amongst other objects.  Immediately the scout approached the Chief and Shaman about the nugget.  The Shaman took the stage making a big and negative scene making it quite clear to the two Spaniards that the gold was taboo and belonged to God.  The Spaniards fired their weapons in an effort to frighten the already confused tribe who thought they may be looking at two angels riding heavenly beasts.  Still the Shaman refused until one of the scouts killed a brave with his thunder stick.  The Shaman then bowed and agreed to go to the mine of the Ancestors where they believed that God dwelt at the time of the creation;  he would return with a basket of gold, if the two beings would wait behind.  Upon his return the next day, he set a basket of the shiny metal at their feet and motioned for them to leave in peace.  Of course the two Spanish scouts had other plans and immediately mounted their horses and headed off in the direction of the Shaman's fresh tracks.  They as well returned the next day with both horses packed up with more gold and at the sight of this the Natives went wild.  The two pointed their thunder sticks at the Utes, but upon the effort nothing happened as their powder was wet from an early morning rain on the trail back.  At this the tribe pulled them from their horses and unloaded the packs of gold.  The two were then allowed to leave empty handed and turned away back to their party.  The Shaman spent three days returning the gold to the mine on his back before sealing the entrance once again.  No Ute dared speak of the locations of the mines least the Chief may have had them put to death and only these 12 brothers centuries later retained the knowledge of their locations.  It is Ute legend that the old Shaman was entombed in the mine of the ancestors.  Of course we all know what happened next due to two frantic Spanish scouts.

My buddy Jose the Cactus jumper,  you posted -->

An intelligent man, knowing the stories of Jesuit treasure and Tayopa, would have a keen interest in someone who states he has found......either.  If that man happened to be a Jesuit, the interest might be expected to be intense. That does not verify the claims of  such a mine or any treasure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\

Agreed Joe, but if it happens to be a Jesuit, in the actual area of Tayopa, who   'KNOWS '  that they never mined or accumulated any values, . it would be most unusual wouldn't you think?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You also posted -->  Considering the things that have been attributed to the Jesuits of that era, it seems inconceivable that the order would have "lost" this mine in the first place.  They were inveterate and detailed record keepers.......somewhere.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree  100%, there undoubtedly  'are'  records somewhere, but where ?  I believe that 99% of the present Jesuit hierarchy are not privy to them, most honestly do not know that they were involved in mining.   Those that do know, do not talk of them, Why?   Is it perhaps that some day they intend to recover them themselves? 

One can only speculate, but I suggest that you attempt to get a copy of the records of the Society's  attempt to take North America away from Spain with the help of the Dutch.  This was the  real reason for their expulsion and disfavor with the King.  This may be a bit difficult.

However I have now traced most of the route by which they shipped precious metal from the Tayopa zone North / East to one of the bays below Matamorros for trans shipment to Rome.

My assoc. had an audience with the then no 2 of the Society, who when asked about this, laughingly admitted it, and  said  "Yes we did, but we don't do that sort of thing anymore".

 My assoc. was an un ordained Jesuit, he found that he liked females more than the vows, which is one of the reasons that he wrangled the Audience.  The schooling, not the females., sheesh.

You should have been privy to some of the data Father Charles  Polzer and I exchanged  before he unfortunately left us. He finally said, "ok when you open Tayopa I will dance the first dance"in celebration..

Regarding the Jesuits  they were infamous for having very deep pockets for court intrigue, where did they get this money,

What was the Jesuit priest doing climbing around on Tayopa where he fell to his death in the later 1800's.?  This is when there was only one Indian family within 20 miles.  This spot is now known as the Cerro de la Cura.


As to the meeting with my friend in Yecora, that must remain in confidence, but yes, Mexican hill coffee is excellent, especially when sitting around an wood stove burning aromatic pitch pine..

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Twisted Fork;
Here is  the historical timeline pretaining to the tale of Cibola, my friend:
Quivera and Cibola were two of the seven fabulous cities of gold that first originated when the Moors conquered Merida, Spain in 1150 AD. Columbus discovered America is 1492 AD, which means the fable of Quivera and Cibola predates the discovery of America by 342 years, therefore nobody could have possibly known of the existence of Cibola, Quivera or the other golden cities in the New World because no one had discovered the New World yet.

There is also a very good reason why the story tellers chose the westerly direction in their tale of the Seven Bishops of Merida. It's simply beacuse the other three cardinal points, that being North South and East, had already been thoroughly explored and mapped, which left only the westerly direction as the only remaining unexplored direction. During the time when the story first began making it's rounds, pretty much everyone felt that the world was relatively flat and if one were set off in a westerly direction then they'd fall off of the edge of world.

Now, if one were to do a bit of research, one would quickly discover that Merida, Spain was naught but a sleepy country hamlet without a single Bishop in the region, much less being the home of seven Bishops. As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop.

There were never any riches housed in Merida, church owned or otherwise. It's simply a fable, dreamt up by medieval bards and recited as poems in front of crowds of noblemen, purely as a form of entertainment, in much the same way as they would sing praises of the mighty knight Roland, Arthur, or other chivalric knights of old.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[do]

HOLA amigos and I also Welcome back our friend Lamar.

This reply is another long-winded one, so I beg your indulgence.

Lamar wrote

At least our esteemed associate, Twisted Fork, is giving the Jesuits a well-deserved break:

With one of his Spirit Guides being what he described as a dead Jesuit Priest, it is understandable! 

Cactusjumper wrote

Should you come to the Rendezvous, you will meet many of those old timers and youngsters.  If you have ever wondered about a certain place in the Superstitions, had a question about some part of the legends or history, there will be one or more people there who can give you a qualified answer.

I do wonder about Circlestone, and may one day hike in to take a peek at it - with many questions about it such as who or whom built it, what was the purpose, when was it constructed and when was it abandoned etc.  No "treasure" connection of course but still an interesting bona fide Superstition mountains mystery.  We are trying to work it out so we can attend, but I detest to make promises I can't keep so can't say anything definite - yet.   

Real de Tayopa wrote

And Yes, the 7 ciudades de Cibola do exist. They are in the Valle de Conajaqui in Sinaloa next to the Durango border.   It is  Mexican national treasure site now, and the UN has it in it's sights.

I would like to you explain why this site is identified with Cibola, if you have time?  There is a site in AZ right on the border with NM which "fits" the descriptions given by Coronado perfectly, though they are in ruins/abandoned today, and the site you are proposing seems to be very much too far south to fit with Coronado's timeline of his march north.  Thank you in advance.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

You posted -->

Why would they do that when they could make maps and legal documents to show the same
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Simply because they would be using an old law to bolster the claim,  since they couldn't produce a valid series of documents from many different departments  -  The Mexicans inherited a fetish from Spain, copies, copies, copies, and more copies -   It would have been almost impossible to falsify the necessary documents.

The custom and effective law they were trying to take advantage of, was the old law of continuous occupancy, whether legally there or not.   If one stayed continuously on a parcel of land for 10 years without being served a legal order of eviction, the land was theirs for claiming.

Under this Pre-emption law, I believe there was also a requirement for the claimant to have made certain improvements upon the land so claimed, including but not limited to a water source (as in an improved spring or dug well) corner monuments of stone or wood, a habitation which has been continuously occupied for some period of time, clearing of some area of land, etc.  On these grounds Reavis was not well supplied with evidence, but his concentration of false documents served him well enough, or well enough up to a point.  A claimant could always say that their improvements had been destroyed by hostile Indians etc.

Real de Tayopa also wrote

Good afternoon gentlemen: I had a long post to answer both of you, but I was called away before I posted it, when I came back it was gone - while I was away, Norton came on, scanned ,  and restarted my computer -  something about a porno thingie from Lamar?     Hehhe  sorry my friend,  couldn't resist, but it did disappear.

Hey everyone reading our discussion - keep an eye out for this kind of crap, and it often comes with an email address from someone you know so you THINK it is legit when in reality it is spam of the worst kind.  The folks doing this know how to use a fake return email address (using someone from your own list) and load your computer with crap, maybe even illegal kiddie-porn etc.  Just a reminder to our readers to keep on the lookout.

Lamar wrote

Now, if one were to do a bit of research, one would quickly discover that Merida, Spain was naught but a sleepy country hamlet without a single Bishop in the region, much less being the home of seven Bishops. As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop.

Not trying to "correct" you here amigo as you do have it correct, just wanted to add that some have proposed there were originally seven priests, not bishops, and the exodus to escape the invading Moors did take place (sailing west) - after which the arriving Moors, finding no treasures then assumed that vast quantities had been removed with the fleeing priests and Christians.  Just a possible origin for a very old legend, in which a somewhat mundane (but still must have been a terrible event to live through) flight of Merida and nearby villagers from hostile Muslims grew into a treasure tale that eventually led to much greater adventures as well as greater tragedies.

Lamar I have a totally off-topic question to ask you here too, and you probably know the answer - do you remember the name of the person assigned to be Bishop of Vinland?  No connection to our discussion here, just have been trying to find it and without the name of the bishop it is tough.  Thank you in advance. 

Please do continue gentlemen, this has gotten interesting! 
Oroblanco