The Peralta Stones

Good evening my friends:   k will start with -->

I was merely joking in mentioning Lamar, he is completely innocent of the  suggested remarks.   he he he   appology  Lamar.  A routine idle time scan always restarts the computer after, and in doing so I lost my beautiful post, snifff.
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Oro you posted -->

I would like to you explain why this site is identified with Cibola, if you have time?
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I always have time for you ORO.   Simply because they covered their homes with iron pyrites, which is known as fools gold.  There were also 7 pueblos in the valley complex, and they had an enormous amount of figurines and statues of Buffalo.  In every respect, they fit the description in every way, except for the Gold.

 The valley is rather isolated in a very rugged section of the country. Easily bypassed in the past.
 Most have no idea just how broken up and rugged the  Mt range country of Mexico is.  It is said that when Cortez was explaining to the King about Mexico,  he was quiet for a moment,  then took  a piece of parchment, crumpled it up into a very small piece, then opened it up and spread it in front of  the king  saying "that is Mexico Sire".  A very accurate description.

Esteban just happened to pass by and saw them glittering in the sun, so his story wasn't a complete fabrication, however, it did set off the massive search for them since they did fit the legendary lost cities..   Unfortunately they all bypassed it and went far, far, to the North. as we now know, even Estaban on his return.   After due research, the United Nations is seriously considering them as a world heritage.  They were instrumental in accelerating the exploration of North America.
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You also posted -->

Under this Pre-emption law, I believe there was also a requirement for the claimant to have made certain improvements upon the land so claimed, including but not limited to a water source
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ORO,  under the Spanish/Mexican law just grazing your animals on the land is possibly enough.  Naturally a home is a far stronger factor.
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Question, was the American Bison known in the old country prior to Americas last discovery ??  How did the   Siete ciudades de Cibola - the seven cities of the Buffalo   get started if there was no knowledge of Cibalo / Buffalo then?  To whom do we owe the first knowledge of them which means that America was visited long before 1492 , possibly even earlier than the vikings and IRISH?  Hmm  where did the Blue eyed Mayos of Sonora, Mexico  originate? 

ROY, you do have blue eyes no?  Nah, sorry, there can't be any connection since they predate you, stilll??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Lamar,

My friend, I think you are using World History Book ver. 0.2. We are currently on ver. 7.0. HAHAHA. It is now generally accepted fact that Leif Ericson discovered America in 1001 CE when he founded the settlement of Vinland (Newfoundland). It is even possible (though unproven) that his father (Eric the Red) may have visited this same area earlier than that.

Best-Mike

Some of the oldest mummies in the West have red hair and are as tall as ball players.

Dear gollum;
Yes, it's been firmly established that the Norse were early explorers of the Western hemisphere and that they most likely set foot upon North America proper at some point in time preceeding Columbus' discovery, however Columbus remains the first documented discovery, therefore this is the discovery that most scholars use. Seeing as how the norse were not profilic writers, we cannot credit them with the discovery of the New World, nor did they leave behind a vast amount of historical evidence.

We cannot even properly credit Leif Ericson with the discovery and settling of L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, due to the conflicting physical evidence which has thus far been uncovered. It seems the settlement in question was founded by an as yet almost unknown culture, known as the Dorset people, which precceded the Norse by at least 200 years. The odd thing about the Dorsets is that they may, or may not, have been influenced from the people of the European mainland.

During the late Dorset period, several artifacts have been uncovered which show a distinct northern European influence, which may, or may not, be coincidental, however it is believed by some that a group of European explorers may have arrived in the upper Atlantic region of North America some two to three hundred years prior to Leif Ericson.

Also, no one can postively identify the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement as being the same settlement that's described in the Norse Icelandic sagas, Grœnlendinga (the sage of the Greenlanders) and Eiríks saga rauða (the saga of Erik the Red) both of which relate that Leif Ericson was the son of Erik the Red.

Above and beyond all of this conjecture, we are still faced with the reality that no written evidence exists which depicts the Norse as having set foot upon North America proper, therefore the person most often credited with the discovery of the New World remains  Christopher Columbus.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Real de Tayopa;
The earliest version of the tale of Cibola refers to a single Bishop as having fled the Moorish onslaught from Merida. As time passed, the one Bishop grew into multiple priests, Bishops, and even a king or two, until there existed seven different Bishops, which each one having established His own city in an unknown land far to the West.

The word *Cibola* was intrepreted by the Spaniards as a vague(very vague, as it turned out) area in what is believed to be modern-day Northern New Mexico. The natives seemed to describe to the Spaniards a great treasure which lay to the North known as Cibola. To the Spaniards this could only mean a city of gold, whereas to the natives it meant another type of entirely different treasure, the vast buffalo herds, which the natives owed their existence to.

This may very well be the reason why the natives seemed to have been leading the Spaniards in a huge random circular pattern. The Spanish thought they were searching for an immovable object, whereas the natives assumed that the Spaniards were trying to find the buffalo herds, which followed a North/South annual migration route.

Before the arrival of the Conquistadores, the word or name Cibola did not exist in the Spanish lexicon. Prior to having been called Cibola, the fabulous golden city was known by the Spaniards as Quivira.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
I believe the first Bishop of Vinland was named Eirik. Most of the earliest Bishops of the Icelandic settlements were descended from a man called Thorfinn Karlsefni and his wife, Gudrid. It is unknown whether Eirik was the offspring of Thorfinn Karlsefni, however there is some evidence which suggests a possible relationship.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Boxed in with a slant between two markers combined, I think you'll find that the tablets and their witch priest, concentrate on an area between these two river  points.  The large sweeping "S" in the river and the hood shaped turn farther East.  "Black Mountain" topo center (south east of the "S") represents the two topo rings one within the other, carved in between the number group, on the second tablet face. 

Topo Reference 1........

Topo Reference 2........

Tablet Face 2........Topo Rings, Hat Peak

Further Reference........"A Man of the Cloth,"   "1 of 6 Soul Survivors,"   "All Hands Lost"      Topo Rings again.     "On the Trail from the Heart"

Twisted,

I wouldn't put too much effort into connecting the maps with the circle-in-circle symbol. That symbol is part of the mathematical equation. All the figures in that equation were added to the stone maps at some date later than their original manufacture. Probably by a different cutter even. There are several markings on the stone maps that are carved shallower than the original carvings.

There are actually a few places on the stone maps that contain equations that are likely encoded trails. One of the equations is sanded almost completely off. This may have happened due to weathering or by a previous owner (either Tumlinson or Mitchell) not wanting anyone else to have all the info.

A good friend has a set of castings, and the equations are visible if lighted correctly.

Best-Mike

Good morning Ladies & Gentlemen:  Briefly going  back to The 'Grand Quivera /  Siete ciudades de Cibola'.  I believe that Cortez's conquering of Mexico was a situation made to order to utilize this old legend for stimulating exploration into vast unknown regions against fierce Indian tribes at minimal expense to the Crown.

The critical icing in the cake of history was Esteban's discovery of the actual Siete Ciudads of Cibola in Sinaloa, however he apparently never set foot inside of them,  for what reason, we will never know.    However his description fit the original story so well that it set off waves of exploration parties,  both legal and illegal.  They are being given credit for the actual exploration movement, so historically, they are  very important.

By itself, the original legend could never have done this, just as the conquest of Mexico would never have occurred as it did, without the physical presence of Gold..

The factor that favors the Pueblos in Sinaloa as being the  critical ones for nortern explorations is that they were physically seen, and did fit the description almost exactly.  None of the others come close.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The modern day Gold rushes are good examples of the effectiveness of this factor.

p.p.s.  Look at what the Peralta (?) stones have accomplished in a far smaller scale.

..... There is a site in AZ right on the border with NM which "fits" the descriptions given by Coronado perfectly, though they are in ruins/abandoned today, and the site you are proposing seems to be very much too far south to fit with Coronado's timeline of his march north.  Thank you in advance.  Oroblanco

Presumably you are referring to the Big Lue Mountains near N33deg02'48", W109deg01'35" - an interesting area for sure and near the site of a recent massive search and rescue mission to locate a lost "Lost Adams Diggings" pilgrim.  Easy to get lost in those canyons, I guess.

However, regarding the "Cibola" legends, it is known that Estevanico left a crude carving of his name near the Frying Pan Canyon pictographs (extremely interesting carvings, structures and legends there, by the way) near N32deg27', W107deg41', and, presumably, the carved cross taller than a man found on the escarpment just east of the Kneeling Nun landmark near N32deg46', W108deg,03' (very close to the famous "Map Cave" pictographs and other carvings at about N32deg44', W108deg0').  It all leads the way to the mountain known as Santo Nino de Atocha, aka Monte Christo, aka "____" on today's maps in the Pinos Altos Range.  This is where Estevanico took the Franciscan Marcos de Niza in 1539.  This is the site of the cavern filled with wire gold a foot in diameter.  This is the site of a "harvest" led by a "Royal Engineer/mapper", carried out by German miners and protected by "European soldiers" ca mid-1500's. 

As far as Marcos de Niza is concerned, for reasons having to due with either a conflict in loyalties (the "harvest"), or to avoid witnessing another Peru, or both, Marcos led the idiot Coronado to Zuni in 1541 (oops - wrong turn off the Gila River at the Rio San Francisco!) and returned to Mexico "in shame" while the Expedition wandered all the way to Kansas and back empty-handed.  Is this gold-laced cavern "Cibola"?  Maybe.  Might be "Chicomoztoc" too.  Of course, I could be mistaken. 

good morning my Friends:  Twisted, a  question, what does the large hole in the stone represent?  as for the smaller ones on the river'  they are obviously placer occurrences since most are where a river placer would occur and their feeds.  As for the very small one at the right, bottom   I have my own ideas, but I have yet to hear of an explanaton.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"Pit Mine"        

 "Black Mountain" is also the Natives "Horse Pizzel"   and topo ring off from the Rio.  Imitation rock monuments are pictured closer the the water and or two flat topped buttes.

As masculine dominance was always in the forefront back in the day, with such macho art, one must ask   "Wheres the Horse's Pizzle"  ?

3 mines to the E.  Shackle the burros where the Rio sweeps as the horse's "tale."    "I pasture to the North of the "     R10 = Veer right 1 degree from the alignment of each infield triangle, to pin point each mine.  The triangle with the 5 in the middle of it refers to the month of the Witch's Equinox.  The caches from each mine are revealed by Apex shadow cast on this day.   A-PAX

Notice the pock mark above the rock pick shaped  "T"  in the group DE SANTA FE;  compare it to the mark where the missing pizzle should be.  The double LL above the rock pick shape  "T"  represents two barrel cactus.  You looking at some variation to the Gun sight  Mine one in the same.  Does the pizzle not resemble a guns front site?  If a canon was fired systematically from "Black Mountain" it would eventually land a "Round" around a "Round Pit"  Every thing is a reflection of a reflection until the image comes into view.

[blue]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

I believe the first Bishop of Vinland was named Eirik.

THANK YOU amigo I could NOT recall the name, and now with a name to search, just checked that (google) you are absolutely correct!  Thorfinn Karlsefni is the person named in the Icelander's Saga as the "discoverer" of America too, (if memory serves)  in conflict with Leif Eriksson's claim.  I can not get at my own books (yet) but can see them in the front of the moving truck, which drives me crazy sometimes.   

I have to ask you one more question too - you wrote

As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop

you mentioned that a bishop is never appointed by the church unless there is a basilica or cathedral, correct?  Do you know when this requirement came into effect? Thank you in advance. <Not trying to "trick" you here, just did not know this tidbit you mentioned.>

Real de Tayopa wrote

ROY, you do have blue eyes no?

Not exactly, more green - however on certain days they do look blue, brown, grey and other colors.  Depends on the light and backgrounds. 

Springfield wrote

Presumably you are referring to the Big Lue Mountains near N33deg02'48", W109deg01'35"

You are correct amigo, as usual! 

Oroblanco

Many of the children in MY extended family have blue/green eyes, mostly starting out with blonde hair until they were in their late teens +, then turning darker.  (different part of Spain)

B

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
My father, who is from the Northern part of Spain, was born with the blondest hair and blue eyes. When he was 12 his hair turned from white blonde to coal black and it remained that way till his passing. My mom, also from the same region of Spain as my dad, started out life with light red hair, then hers turned to brunette by the time she was in her late teens. It's a very common occurrance for that part of Europe.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
Having a cathedral or basilica as the seat of a Bishop is not a requirement, per se, rather, it started out as a trend around the 5th century AD in the East. With the increased number of Christians in both the East and West, the diocesial system of governance became the norm and as the various dioceses grew, so did the need for basilicas and cathedrals. Cathedrals are simply churches, usually built on a grand scale, and almost always follow a certain floorplan, but once again, this is not always the case. There exists many churches which are in fact larger, grander and/or more oppulent than their cathedral counterparts in the same diocese.

It has become a tradition for Bishops to use diocesial cathedrals as the Office of His Diocese, but once again, this is strictly a tradition and is by no means a hard and fast requirement. A Bishop may control a diocese without a cathedral or basilica being present, but this is not typical. On the opposite tack, a cathedral or basilica will always have an appointed Bishop of some sort as the diocesial leader, unless the seat is vacant at the time and is awaiting an appointment from Rome, in which case the Office will be manned and maintained by a senior priest and usually that is someone who is in line for a Bishoporic.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Mr. R.D.T., next time I am in the wilds I will keep my eyes open for a ghostdog, that said I have had visions from time to time but mostly of a indian or groups of indians and other enities I cant really describe. When that happens I do get the shakes. Anyways I will not call you king again until your corination .Also your thoery on the P.S.,sounds as good as any.
I too would like to know about the hole in 1.Do you think it might be a sight hole when alighned properly with the front imfo on the stone at a certain time of day showing a distinct location.

HIO Oro: Then I guess that you aren't responsible for the  Mayos  blue eyes.

Berth . Spain?  sheesh pore Oro.   I know,  being married to a Latina, my Tiger,  who has developed an accurate coffee cup throwing ability.    Of course, as is common in nature, I have developed an equally uncanny ability to dodge.

Lamar mi buddy,  That change seems to be a norm., I was born a blue eyed blond, it turned darker later, then back to it's present extremely Blond (err White) color of today.   sigh

Oro, my eyes change color depending upon my mood.  If I feel in a very loving / smoochy  mood, they are a  deep blue,  If I am getting ready to shoot you,  they go flat grey ??  This gives my Tiger an unfair advantage.

So far it hasn't been passed down.  Blue is an extremely regressive color and is dying out.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Good morning Ghost Dog, my new friend:   You posted -->

 I will not call you king again until your corination
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Sigh, I often wonder when that might be? When I was first on the trail, for some reaason, I always assumed that as soon as you found a lost mine, etc.,  you merely filled up a wheelbarrow and took off for the Bank.  It doesn't seem to work out that way in real life.

Also, I haven't been called "MR" since I left the USAF.   Friends do not call each other "MR"--- hint.

Can the hole indicate the actual site of the Mine?  I like the sight hole idea also.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Columbus discovered America is 1492 AD, which means the fable of Quivera and Cibola predates the discovery of America by 342 years, therefore nobody could have possibly known of the existence of Cibola, Quivera or the other golden cities in the New World because no one had discovered the New World yet."]

Dear Lamar,

You wrote:

"Dear Twisted Fork;
Here is  the historical timeline pretaining to the tale of Cibola, my friend:
Quivera and Cibola were two of the seven fabulous cities of gold that first originated when the Moors conquered Merida, Spain in 1150 AD. Columbus discovered America is 1492 AD, which means the fable of Quivera and Cibola predates the discovery of America by 342 years, therefore nobody could have possibly known of the existence of Cibola, Quivera or the other golden cities in the New World because no one had discovered the New World yet."

If you assume that the story is true, which I don't, it follows that the natives would have learned the story from the people who fled from Merida, when they arrived here. 

Take care,

Joe

[trend around the 5th century AD]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Having a cathedral or basilica as the seat of a Bishop is not a requirement, per se, rather, it started out as a trend around the 5th century AD in the East.

Thank you Lamar, for the info and for clearing up that it is not a requirement but common practice.  I had thought it odd that Greenland actually had a cathedral, but since they had bishops now it makes sense.

Real de Tayopa wrote

Oro, my eyes change color depending upon my mood.

I have that very same problem - though when really angry (which is never, of course!) I get yellow-gold streaks that will remain for a day or so.   

Ghostdog - concerning that conspicuous hole, it is my opinion that this is the most important feature on the map, that you are to take a stick and stand it in the hole, with the map oriented so that the Sun would make it cast a shadow on the map - this shadow then indicates the actual site of the treasure, which is otherwise NOT indicated on the map. The secret lies in the correct length of the shadow-stick, and what time of day to use it!  All the rest of the markings are really for orientation and to mislead anyone who might get the maps.    Just a personal opinion of course.

Lamar wrote

Quivera and Cibola were two of the seven fabulous cities of gold that first originated when the Moors conquered Merida, Spain in 1150 AD.

and Cactusjumper replied

If you assume that the story is true, which I don't, it follows that the natives would have learned the story from the people who fled from Merida, when they arrived here.

I find it interesting that this Cibola legend originates in Merida, which is not on the coast.  I am tempted to link this with Plutarch's Life of  Sertorius story in which the Roman general is tempted to go to the "Isles of the Blest" which he learns of from local seamen.  However it is odd that such a story of ships sailing off to the west to found new cities, should originate in a city which is some distance from the coast.    Curse those unfathomable Moors! 
Oroblanco
 

OERO:  I was just opening the site to post that very same thing.  sigh.  However, one would have to know the day and the time.  Since most did not have the ability to accurately tell time in those days they used the sun's mid day zenith to use as the time marker. This was  easily established.

However, I have a  different idea on the whole, incluidng using the sun in the afternoon, say the setting sun on a certain day...O----------------------> X

There are undoubtedly marks on the stone that would then make sense.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Great Minds Think Alike]

Don Jose' wrote

OERO:  I was just opening the site to post that very same thing.  sigh.

Well you know what they say - "Great Minds Think Alike"!    Oh, wait a minute, maybe that saying goes "Sick Minds Think Alike"! 
Oroblanco

Roy and Don Jose,

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that the small hole represents an entrance into a larger hole/cave.  After you have given that some thought, you might want to read the Harry LaFrance cave of gold bars story.  By one of those rare coincidences, that symbol is very close to Harry's path out of the mountains.

Good hunting,

Joe

I had not considered that possibility Joe - but as I know of no cave in that area, the connection did not seem apparent.  It would be perfectly logical, yet aren't caves more commonly indicated on maps with symbols rather than such a graphic hole?  Of course that would be making an assumption the map makers followed convention...

Roy,

I have not seen a lot of Spanish stone maps, so I have nothing to compare them with.  On the other hand, the most common maps from that period would be on paper.  If they were hiding the Kings Royal Fifth, I would not expect they would be using the accepted symbols, codes or methods of concealment.

Just some random opinions from inside the box.

Take care,

Joe

I wonder what the diameter of that hole is?  Anyone know?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
Many people, Catholics included, get a particular mental picture when they hear the word *cathedral*. They picture a sprawling oppulent structure, with huge doors, intricate carvings, huge stained glass windows, etc. This is an inaccurate depection my friend. The seat of the diocesial Bishoporic always designates at least one church, and sometimes more, as a cathedral. This may be nothing more than simple chapel, yet if it is designated as the seat of the diocese it then garners the title of Cathedral.

Also, if a diocese is large enough, then there may be more than one church designated as a cathedral. In this case, the multiple cathedral assume the title of *co-cathedral*.

If a church was at one time the seat of a Bishoporic, it then assumes the title of *proto-cathedral* and if a parish church is a temporary cathedral, it assumes the title of *pro-cathedral*.

Several dioceses which are connected to one another geographically may also be have a metropolitan Bishop appointed. This is known as a metropolitan diocese and the seat carries the title of Metropolitan cathedral.

Confusing, isn't it my friend? :-)
Your friend;
LAMAR

good morning my Friends:  Twisted, a  question, what does the large hole in the stone represent?  as for the smaller ones on the river'  they are obviously placer occurrences since most are where a river placer would occur and their feeds.  As for the very small one at the right, bottom   I have my own ideas, but I have yet to hear of an explanaton.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The final "heading" from the outfield apex, shoots from a single barrel cactus, off into the distance to a point in between two barrel cactus.  The single cactus is the big knife and this line passes over the pit and used to pass over the stone head that Waltz said he pick a face on, just above the pit.  This hole also resembles the "head" of a barrel and a shadow it casts below.

[infield apex]

Mr. Fork,

Very well done indeed.  On the other hand, you have left out the single most important factor in the entire puzzle.

What of the solar azimuth angle of the shadow created by the infield apex as it falls across that very same cactus at 4:00 on August 14th.?  Without that calculation, you end up in.........Peoria.

Nice post!

Joe

[infield apex]

Mr. Fork,

Very well done indeed.  On the other hand, you have left out the single most important factor in the entire puzzle.

What of the solar azimuth angle of the shadow created by the infield apex as it falls across that very same cactus at 4:00 on August 14th.?  Without that calculation, you end up in.........Peoria.

Nice post!

Joe

Hey, I've been to Peoria - it's not such a bad place

[A note on the images of the Peralta Stones we have been discussing here, I am of the opinion that these images are not of the originals but of castings]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Many people, Catholics included, get a particular mental picture when they hear the word *cathedral*. <snip>
...Confusing, isn't it my friend? :-)

Yes indeed.  What I find most curious is that case of Vinland.  Our experts and historians state flatly that it was a very short lived-colony, which lasted a few years at most.  (Nine years max viz Diamond's Collapse) so if it was discovered around the year 1000 or 1002, why should the Church have dispatched a Bishop to visit the colony over 100 years later in 1117 AD?  Why too would the Church then assign a Bishop to that same supposedly long-abandoned colony a short three years later (1120 AD) who is said to arrive there a year later?  (Eirik Upse) This simply doesn't make sense, if it were truly an abandoned colony in a matter of a few years, as our historians claim - at least in my opinion.  How can this be reconciled?  Are we to assume that the Church made a foolish error sending a Bishop to Vinland in 1117, then an even larger mistake by assigning a Bishop to head the empty colony a few years later?  What do you think?  Thank you in advance. 

A note on the images of the Peralta Stones we have been discussing here, I am of the opinion that these images are not of the originals but of castings - good castings but the little details seem to be missing.

Cubfan wrote

Hey, I've been to Peoria - it's not such a bad place

Would you consider Peoria to qualify as a "treasure"?   
Oroblanco

Roy,

This is a copy of the original picture of the Stone Maps:



These pictures are of the stones in the museum:




Take care,

Joe

MUCHAS GRACIAS Joe!

Don Jose, la Hombe de la Mancha wrote

Berth . Spain? sheesh pore Oro.

I thought she would have responded to this, but since it seems she missed it I will.  Her maiden name is LaFortune, (French) but also with Irish ancestry; her first husband had Spanish roots. Her second husband has a rather different  mix, but also including ancestors from the Emerald Isle.  
Oroblanco
 

 :dontknow:Wow those stone maps are huge and heavy and old, my view is they were meant to be found and deciphered. Their must be more stone maps connected to this puzzle still buried somewhere.Is it possible their is a map room somewhere,like a library ? 

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation, and while I am NOT stating that they do not lead to the LDM, or anywhere else for that matter, there are not representitive of an old set of stone carvings. I've placed the time of the stone carvings to be somewhere around the 1930s, and carved by a person with a very poor knowledge of the Spanish language, Spanish writing style and Spanish art depictions.

 For one example, we can study the numbers carved upon one of the stones. The numerals 1, 2, 3 and 7 are plainly American and not Spanish or Mexican. The numeral 1 is always represented as looking very similiar to a long upside-down V, so as not to confuse the numeral with the lower case letter L. The numeral 2 is not stylized as it would be in either the Spanish or Mexican style. The numeral 3 should have the lower portion substantially larger than the upper portion, so as not to confuse it with the numeral 2 and the 7 always has a crossbar between the bottom and top of the upright leg, so as not to confuse it with the numeral 1.

 Again, this is not to state that the stone maps do not represent the path to the LDM, merely that they are modern carvings and as such, your view of the maps should be based upon this knowledge. For all anyone knows, the maps could very possibly be leading the way towards an entirely different treasure cache.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ghostly,

Google "Latin Crosses". They are two crosses and a heart that also fits the heart hole in the stone maps. A lot of people claim they are fakes, but the guy that found them swears they are authentic.

As a matter of fact, read this article by Jim Hatt:

http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html

Best-Mike

Mike,

The guy who found the Stone Crosses was Michael Bilbrey.  He also found a cure for cancer, which he promptly sold to many desperate people.  If Jim Hatt wants to believe in the credibility, reliability and basic honesty of such a person, it is his reputation that is being tied to Bilbrey's.

That's nothing against Jim Hatt, as many people believed Bilbrey.  I, obviously, am not one of them.

Michael Bilbrey spent his time in prison for selling his snake oil.  You may choose to believe him or not on the Stone Crosses.  I can tell you that he has tried to raise money with them on a number of occasions, the last that I heard of was up in Holbrook.

Take care,

Joe

Would you consider Peoria to qualify as a "treasure"?   
Oroblanco

Well, ok you got me there :p

[infield apex]

Mr. Fork,

Very well done indeed.  On the other hand, you have left out the single most important factor in the entire puzzle.

What of the solar azimuth angle of the shadow created by the infield apex as it falls across that very same cactus at 4:00 on August 14th.?  Without that calculation, you end up in.........Peoria.

Nice post!

Joe

One must pay attention here,   You shoot a compass quad from the single cactus to find the funnel, the shadow only falls on the cache which is a little funnel full of gold taken from the big funnel.  It is a mock up in short range, as to how to find the Dutchman at long range.  A right angle separates them.  The big knife barrel cactus is the axle of the clock.  The long hand is on 23 minutes before 11.  The short hand is centered on 11.  This is your right angle sir, so you see you really don't even need the shadow.

[not]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation

Wow this is getting scary, when I find my self in total agreement with you again and again.  Lamar you are not a simple man, are you?  These danged Peralta Stones have been the source of much disagreement and little in the way of treasures. If we can tie Harry LaFrance and his cave of gold bars to them, then that makes ONE treasure.  We have several good suspects for whom created them, and virtually no record of any ancient origins.  Where, we might ask, is there any mention found in any of the Peralta (or Gonzales, Parillo, etc) stories of any of them ever having made or having possession of any stone maps?  I know plenty of folks disagree with Lamar and myself on whether these are genuine OLD treasure maps, but everything about them is wrong.  If this were an antique we would be laughed out of the experts shop for its flaws.  When we are examining stone inscriptions, symbols petroglyphs and so forth, if it looks WRONG it is generally wrong.  I have posted much on this before, but as Lamar has pointed out with the numerals, the inscription looks NOTHING like any truly OLD Spanish or Mexican inscription.  If you want to see what the real thing looks like there are good photos online.  We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see.

All that said, it is still possible that they may well lead to treasure(s) or mines.  The treasure might be something very different from gold bars or chests of coins, but very valuable nevertheless.  I just cannot accept that these are any older than the 20th century, and believe that they are intended to LOOK like they date to 1847.   


Cubfan wrote

Well, ok you got me there

Hey buddy I had not pulled your leg in quite some time, thought that was a perfect opportunity! 

Mike my apologies for posting such a negative reply here in your thread, where I promised not to post such.  I will refrain from doing it again
Oroblanco
 

Follow the Ghosts of the Horse Soldier, they know of her where abouts and why.

Hi All and to all, In responding to replys to my last post , I have done research on the Peralta stones, and  I believe,the  stones in topic #438 this thread are the real deal.  True the date 1847 is not 1647,and more post modern.  I think there are more inscribed stones  yet to be uncovered that will put together a full map. The fact that some were sold for $100.00 does not make them snake oil. Its possible the inscribtions on the stones were copied from other imformation at a latter date{copyright?1847?,and thus the modern writeing} Anyways thats my take on these interesting stones.

Dead men tell no tales, but stone tablets do.  Their whole world lays there before you.

..... We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see .....

For truth-seekers, this realization is usually a long process.  Many never get it.

..... We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see .....

For truth-seekers, this realization is usually a long process.  Many never get it.

Both of those are two of the most well spoken truths in regards to treasure hunting

Dear Oroblanco;
Please forgive my delayed reply to your question, my friend. It seems that with the sudden flurry of activity on this particular thread, I must have overlooked your question. Once more please excuse my faux pas.

Yes indeed.  What I find most curious is that case of Vinland.  Our experts and historians state flatly that it was a very short lived-colony, which lasted a few years at most.  (Nine years max viz Diamond's Collapse) so if it was discovered around the year 1000 or 1002, why should the Church have dispatched a Bishop to visit the colony over 100 years later in 1117 AD?  Why too would the Church then assign a Bishop to that same supposedly long-abandoned colony a short three years later (1120 AD) who is said to arrive there a year later?  (Eirik Upse) This simply doesn't make sense, if it were truly an abandoned colony in a matter of a few years, as our historians claim - at least in my opinion.  How can this be reconciled?  Are we to assume that the Church made a foolish error sending a Bishop to Vinland in 1117, then an even larger mistake by assigning a Bishop to head the empty colony a few years later?  What do you think?  Thank you in advance.

The answer to the question lies in the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church during the era in question and it started with the Bishop St. Ansgar. On order to fully understand the situation, we must realize that Northern Europe was sparsely populated and even somehwat uninhabited in some of the more remote areas. Also, pagan beliefs were rife amongst the Northern Europeans and Christianity teetered on the brink of oblivion in the face of the traditional heathen beliefs. In the midst of all of this, Christianity suffered debilitating blows with each succeeding generation and many Christians were returning to paganism, at least in a partial context.

St. Ansgar (or Oscar, in English) was born in 801 AD in modern day Denmark and was schooled at the famous Benedictine monastery, Corbie Abbey in Corbie, Picardy, France. During St. Ansgar's formative year, the Roman Catholic Church concentrated on converting Saxony (now a part of Northern Germany) to Christianity. Once paganism was eliminated in the Saxony region, the focus of the Church turned to Jutland (now modern day Denmark). Young St. Ansgar was sent to Westphalia, along with several other monks, with the purpose of establishing a mission there and converting the pagans.

This particular mission was spearheaded by none other than the famous Frank King, Charlemagne and it was from this noble king that the Westphalian mission of St. Ansgar recieved unlimited support from the secular invaders, which included political, financial military and manpower resources.

After St. Ansgar converted the whole of Saxony to Christianity, he was sent by Louis the Pious, son and successor to the throne of Charlemagne, to convert the unruly Swedish pagans.  St. Ansgar proceeded to Birka with his assistant, the friar Witmar and converted heathens to Christianity for about 6 months, when he was summoned back to Louis' court at Worms, where he was appointed as Bishop over the Archbishoporic of Hamberg.

He was consecrated a Bishop in 831 AD and received the Pallium from the hands of Pope Gregory IV. Part of his mission was to convert the Northern barbarians to Christianity, and in light of this, the official title of the Archbishoporic was "The mission to bring Christianity to the North" with St. Ansgar as it's head.

He was the Bishop of Hamburg until 845AD when the Danes sacked Hamburg, after which the Church decided that the Archbishoporic was unrestorable and they therefore combined it with the Archbishoporic of Bremen. This union was approved by the Papal See in 864 AD.

This is all well and good, however it does little to answer your question, however what DOES answer your question is the fact that the Northern Missions included that elusive country known only as Vinland. The earliest that Vinland was recorded was in 1075AD by Adam of Bremen and he was tasked with recording the mission of the North.  His definitive body of work, Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum (The Deeds of Bishops of the Hamburg Church) was completed around 1075 AD and so scholars give this date as the first time Vinland was mentioned in text.

The fact, however is that Adam of Bremen had access to the entire library of Bremen and as such, he recorded events and place names from much earlier times and it would seem that the area known as Vinland was known to exist at least as early as the 8th century AD and possibly longer.

Seeing as how Vinland fell under the mission of the Archbishoporic of Hamberg, and later the Archbishoporic of Hamberg-Bremen, it only stands to reason that there was always a Bishop appointed to that region, even though the area may have been known to exist only on paper.

The existence of the area known as Vinland is not in dispute as it's supposed presence in well known, yet the actual location of Vinland has been disputed for decades. If one were to believe that the Vinland Map were genuine, then Vinland would undisputedly be modern day Greenland.

There is another, more secretive reason, for the designation of little known, or unknown areas as parts of dioceses in the Church. It seems that Church officials noted that a person tended to revert back to pagan beliefs and worship if they were left to their own devices and even more so the further they strayed from the altars of Christ. With the appointment of clergy to all areas, whether known or unknown, settled or not, this gave the impression that even though a person may have been far away from the church, the presence of God was always nearby.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear group;
To continue on the discussion of the Peralta Stones, if they are copies of an even older set of stones, then the person who copied tham must have committed the same grammarical errors as the person who carved the originals stones. The grammarical mistakes tell me that the persons who carved the stones was:
1) Not a native Spanish speaker, or even a semi-native Spanish speaker
2) Was educated in US schools
3) Did not grasp the intricate workings of the masculine-feminine words forms common throughout many European derived languages
4) Tended to spell words phonically instead of gramatically
5) Used a modern text style
6) Used a modern caricature style
7) Used incorrect Latin text and place names (this is on the stones which were supposedly discovered later)
Did not have a firm grasp of Spanish lexigraphy or symbolistic renderings
9) Had a passing knowledge of, or was advised by, someone who spoke at least fairly passable *Spanglish*
10) Utilized modern instruments and purposely chose a stone material which was easy to carve.

Once again, this is not to state that the person who carved the stones meant to deceive others, as there always exists the possiblity that the carver was attempting to lead the finder of the stone carvings to a different treasure or area.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Buenas dias mi esteemed amigo Lamar: What you have posted is even more in line with the 1800's period of the Land grab attempt than ever.  Just a  failed attempt due to timing and the actual finding.

Don Jose de La Mancha   

Lamar and Don Jose:
   Although I gather that some may suspect that a certain James Addison Reavis was the creator of the "Stone Maps",and have their reasons for that conclusion,I,myself,have found that the evidence seems to point elsewhere.As far as I have been able to ascertain,Mr.Reavis was considered a bit of an expert in the creation of old spanish documents and,I believe,could have created something far more plausible and supportive of his claims if he were responsible for the fabrication of the stones.
http://wesclark.com/jw/baron_az.html
As for the other Reavis---Elisha Marcus---I can imagine no motive.In fact I doub't that Elisha would have wanted the place to be overrun with treasure hunters.Then again,maybe he wanted the target practice...
   My own theory that DeGrazia may have been the maker is based on several characteristics common to the stones,and to DeGrazia's works,as well as a number of things that I have found and photographed out there.One such clue,perhaps,is the presence of a number of charcoal sketches on the wall of a small shelter,once described as having been created with "campfire chalk".I'm pretty sure,though,that the were instead marked with a product known as "artist's charcoal",a rusty tin containing stubs of same being present at the time,still bearing the Tucson supplier's label.One member of this site has visited,but must have overlooked the tin box at the location.Another clue is a rock with nails and their arrangement,which is duplicated on two of the stones.More of these "markers" can be found elsewhere,undoubtedly driven by the same person.A "little dipper" arrangement of low stone walls matches a symbol on the map stone as well.

Regards:SH

Hi SH - you and CactusJumper share a hypothesis concerning Mr. DeGrazia's possible place in the Stone Maps history.  You guys might want to share a few things in private and see if you can link your ideas together for even further proof.

I've seen Joe's maps and heard some of his theories, and while I can't say for certain that he's correct, there's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence on his side.  I'm just not versed enough in the Stone Maps or even the mountains themselves yet to see everything Joe has shown on his maps, but I do think his theories are more than reasonable.

I'd love to hear the conclusions you guys come up with if you get your heads together on this!

Paul,

I have left that bit of research behind me.  Unfortunately, it was taking me to a place I didn't want to be.  I have always looked for the truth, and let the chips fall where they may, but have decided to let others look for this particular set of answers/truths.

I have posted my conclusions and reasoning a number of times, but find myself getting tired of turning over that last rock.  If SH, or you, want to pursue the creator of the Stone Maps, I wish you good luck and good hunting.

I am more than willing, at this point, to accept whatever evidence Azmula presents as gospel.  The Stone Maps are a wonderful story.......no matter who's telling it.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe - not sure I understand what you mean about that part of your research taking you places you didn't want to be, but I certainly can respect it.

I really don't have a "horse in the race" so to speak regarding the Stone Maps - the interpretation and provenance of them just seems to be too convoluted for me to get that interested.  Perhaps if I lived in the area and could spend much more time in the mountains I'd find myself looking at them more closely.

We'll have to see what Azmula puts together regarding the "author(s)" and history of the stones early next year.  I believe he has some excellent connections down in Mexico and has spent a very long time researching them - it'll be interesting to hear his conclusions and see if his evidence is enough to convince me that he really does have the "truth."

Maybe we can talk more about this stuff at the rendezvous.  I've been trying to put together a list of things I want to do, and sadly I have at least 3 weeks worth of hiking and exploring and only 1 week to do it in - will just have to set some of it aside for another time yet again .

The misspellings are intentional to make for a game of slang charades, slowly painting the true picture in one's mind.  One is supposed to instinctively head in the direction of mineral sign and a water way is first on the list. It also helps to follow the dowsing instructions included.

Paul,

I look forward to explaining it to you at the Rendezvous.  Hope all is well back there.

Take care,

Joe

Mr. Fork,

"It also helps to follow the dowsing instructions included."

Could you explain what the "dowsing instructions" are?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

Dear Mr. Fork;
Mr. Fork,

"It also helps to follow the dowsing instructions included."

Could you explain what the "dowsing instructions" are?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

Yes, please explain the instructions to us, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

The dowsing is the cold water shower he has to take in between the electro shock therapy !!!!


furness

The tablets take you from their burial site, onto the Salt River and up to the large main sweeping S turn.  Just South of this a little ways is Black Mountain;  this little peak is recognized as the "two circles one inside of the other" as viewed both on the topo and as carved on the tablets.  It is also the witch hat on the dowsing witch priest who holds the power of the cross and faces East up river.  A dowser of such abilities (which was common in those days) is instructed to stand on the top of Black Mountain and to aim his wand East up river to feel the pull of consecrated man made markers that were blessed with oil for that very reason;  so that a man of the cloth would be drawn to them.  To be divine as was John the divine;  the ability to see truth amongst a myriad of illusion.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Dear Twisted Fork;
You wrote:
The tablets take you from their burial site, onto the Salt River and up to the large main sweeping S turn.  Just South of this a little ways is Black Mountain;  this little peak is recognized as the "two circles one inside of the other" as viewed both on the topo and as carved on the tablets.  It is also the witch hat on the dowsing witch priest who holds the power of the cross and faces East up river.  A dowser of such abilities (which was common in those days) is instructed to stand on the top of Black Mountain and to aim his wand East up river to feel the pull of consecrated man made markers that were blessed with oil for that very reason;  so that a man of the cloth would be drawn to them.  To be divine as was John the divine;  the ability to see truth amongst a myriad of illusion.

Thank you my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Every once in a while I will take a look at the different forums relating to treasure hunting. This particular forum concerning the "Peralta Stone Maps" has caught my interest and I had a few thoughts for all to ponder. The following comments are based upon actual events that took place in the field and can be verified by close friends and my partners.

The Priest Stone simply states; study the map, study the heart. We all admit that the stone maps are indeed maps. The problem that we encounter is to identify the right location where these maps were designed to be used. Study the heart? Which one? The one on the heart tablet, the stone heart insert (back and front), the recessed area which the stone heart fits into, the word coazon or the hearts found constructed by the hands of men on the actual hillsides 14 miles away on the north side of the river. Everything relating to the heart must be used in context and once you have found the heart you must study it and its surroundings carefully.

The two hearts on the hillside were very difficult to find as they were designed not to be seen accept at a certain time of the year when something that rarely happens takes place, rain. Once the area in question is hit by a good soaking rain something happens on the side of the hillside. Two bright green hearts measuring about 600 feet in height suddenly appear and stick out like sore thumbs against the subdued background colors of the hillside. It turns out that a particular type of Canadian Rye Grass was planted in the interior portions of the rock outlined hearts. Once you have seen them all lit up in green you will never forget their location, but if you try to point these hearts out to someone in the summer they will never see them. The hearts are the calling card that the the "Group" was looking for, so study your materials on monuments and eye catchers and do what they did 500 plus years ago traveling the old river trails looking for the signs. I will return to this forum and add some more of my observations to this topic so as to enlighten those who are interested.

Hi Ellie,welcome to the thread,and thanks for your imputs on the Peralta stones, I have never heard or read of the Canadian green grass angle. Is it possible you could ID your source imformation,like say a book,other stone tablets,old diary, archive records,,letter,etc..Thanks in advance and looking forward  to your response.

thanks ellie, looking forward to reading more of your posts.  thanks much.   ron

Hi Ellie:Though it's not Canadian Rye Grass,this zacate borreguero (sheep grass) has a similar appearance when it's not so dry.
This ring of grass,on a hilltop,surrounds a low pile of small stone chip which,in turn,is surrounded by a circular area of more stone chips.When you stand on the spot that I marked with a scuff of my boot,and look to the west,across the rock at the top of the ring,you will see a large geological feature that appears to be the model for the ponytail on the horse map.At dawn,other features may appear as the rising sun projects the shadows of the surrounding terrain and illuminates other more solid objects.Ears,mane,eye etc,etc.Someday I will have to do a time-lapse set of photos from this place.

Regards:SH

I wouldn't be surprised if Ellie had some photos of the hillside hearts.

The only documentation that relates to this area was written in two reports; one by an archaeologist from the Arizona State Museum in Tucson and one from a certified geologist who lived in Glendale, AZ. It cost us a little over $10,000.00 US dollars
to pay for their services and they believed we were throwing our money away chasing giant hearts and horses drawn in the desert.

I could have really used that money back then, but I was dedicated to prove out what we had found. In order to move ahead with the project we had to provide written documentation to the State of Arizona that Colonial Spain did in fact inhabit the deserts of Arizona north of the Gila River. These two reports were our proof that these colossal symbols were in fact made by the hands of men.

As we travelled to the site on some of the roughest 4 X 4 roads in the world we explained our finds to our highly educated guests,
their responses of laughter filled the air. They were truly sorry for making fun of us , but it could not be helped. As we rounded the last corner I pointed out the largest heart and the huge arrow pointing at it and they both gasped in complete amazement.
The geologist mouth dropped to the floor and the archaeologist was stunned as she stood in disbelief. For the next 3 hours the geologist walked those hills writing his report, he was convinced that the three hearts, the arrow and the horse were made by the hands of men. The same holds true for the archaeologist and to this day she believes 100% that the huge symbols were made by the hands of men. I had no doubts although I was still naive. Debbie brought a botanist friend with her on the trip and she was the one that identified the grass as a Canadian Rye. During this time we tried to raise some money by getting help from investors. Its funny in a way, no one believed us, even with the written documentation.

Will write more later.

EB

I wouldn't be surprised if Ellie had some photos of the hillside hearts.

I have literally hundreds of photographs and will post some here shortly. I have to meet up with my partner and pan some ore that I brought home yesterday. Have a great day and stay out of trouble.

EB

Good morning: the one factor that bothers me is erosion, both eliminating and redepositing soil.  Over a century or so, this would radically modify the terrain.

Down here, a similar climate, I have lost and re found locations, even a still closed up mine, simply because in a few years, or even one huge storm, the land was modified by the weather.

The Superstitions have terrific local storms by it's nature. any one of which can raise cain with any soil markers.

I believe that I have posted here of almost being another victim to the Super's  by a terrific Cumulus Nimbus storm while flying south over Roosevelt lake.

However, I must add that up in Tayopa, they had a giant sun as a marker.  Two years of searching for this final bit of physical proof failed.  Even the local Indians did not know of it.

Then one day , while doing color separation on photographs of the area,  I found it.  It was so obvious that I felt foolish.  The color separation had cut through the plant growth.  It is approx. 50 meters wide and easily visible upon entering the canyon from the East.  

The Jesuits had merely scraped out to bedrock on a section at the foot of the cliff, an 80* slope,  a circle of approx. 50 meters in diameter.  It was a ring with the ring width of perhaps 15 ft. The bare area forming the ring was probably easily visible.

Ellie, the only thing that I would like to add is that it probably was not what they planted, but what they might have done to the area.  Have you had the soil in these areas checked for some type of growth inhibitor?  

Incidentally , I very much like the out of the box thinking Ellie, go go.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hey Don Jose,

As soon as I get the geology report scanned i will attach it to a post. It will answer your question regarding erosion.

Attached is a picture of what we call the R-rock. There are a number of different symbols on this rock out crop. How many can you find?

EB

Oops; The previous photo posted far to large. I will have to redo this post and properly reset the photograph.

EB

K elle luv.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Great  imformation Elle and S-hiker, truely a eye opener, amazeing ,I always thought there was more details than I could dig up on the Superstition mountain ranges regarding there human history.Looking forward to reading your future posts... :icon_thumright:gd 

EB,

Very interesting posts.  Can't wait to see some pictures of the grass hearts.

Like Don Jose, I wonder about erosion of the hearts.  Beyond that, why wouldn't they grow beyond the boundaries.  An outline of rocks will not normally stop the spread  of wild grass.  Do you know the exact type of Canada Rye Grass that creates the image of the hearts?  If they are rock outlined, why can't the hearts be seen year round?

Please share what you can.

Joe Ribaudo

These pictures were taken around forty years ago:





I have the original 8 X 10s that were taken by my uncle, Chuck Ribaudo.

These are recent pictures of the same hillside:





It was not easy to refind this hill.

Joe Ribaudo

The grass will only grow within the outlines of the hearts. Some type of agent was put on the ground to inhibit any growth outside of the hearts (I will talk more about this later). The geological report will give some professional insight into these intaglios (as we have come to call them). What kind of Canadian Rye Grass I have no idea. It will stay green in color for only a few days to a week or as soon as the sun's rays of heat cause it to turn brown and die. Once that happens you can no longer see the hearts. The hearts were designed to be seen far away as the terrain allows due to your location on the river aproximately 14 miles away. Viewing is very limited in distance and angle due to the hearts position on the hillside (other ranges of hills and mountains cover the hillside which the hearts are located on). Imagine a corridor or line of sight that you look through like a spyglass. You must be located in a certain position/orientation on the ground to observe/see the hearts, this term is defined as a veiwing corridor.

Thanking you for the pics Joe.

Please note that pg.3 of the report is listed last, so start reading at page 3.

Find also attached photo of the R-rock.


Joe, you must know some of the older guys that have long since left this earth. We should get together some day and share notes. Do you know where the Horse of the Holy Faith is located?
If not I will tell you where he is.

I have many of these same photographs in my scrap book. All of the Heart Mountain pics that I have were taken with my 35 mm Canon AE-1. I can not find my CD collection that has the digital pics. So many years ago.

After viewing the photograph I can see that it is quite grainy. Stand back from the image until it starts looking better. You will see a shadow heart, L (or square), lightning bolt to the left of the heart, a large letter "R'' and the number four (looks just like this 4) that is integrated into the letter R. Note the three eye catcher rocks near the bottom left of the out crop. Also note their size as they are almost as large as some people. The number 9 with the crescent moon is very important. Never let anyone tell you that they never used the number nine or six. Another secret I must tell you all about;
the number 9 with the crescent is an actual three dimensional sign as it is not imposed on a flat surface of stone. The stone actually curves towards the back of the rock and is carved in such away that produces a near perfect image of a 9 with a crescent moon. There are many other signs produced this way. Now tell me this; how smart are the people that produced the Stone Maps?

EB

EB,

I will be at the Rendezvous the end of this month.  If you can make it, there will be plenty of time for us to talk, and I would be happy to do that. 

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Christians have been called witches for many hundreds of years because of powers that have been exhibited in their presence.  No other faith heals. The more focus that Christian followers spend with the Holy Ghost in mind, the more testimony is in remembrance of them.  Of course the Jesuits for the most part lived and breathed this conscientiousness continually throughout their entire lives.  They were obsessed with leaving sign en route both to and from these gold deposits of which in their minds belonged to God and the church;  power..  Therefore one will find sign along the trails whether it be 1 mile or 1000 miles away.  How else could a permanent record be retained?  One that was designed to fool even Mother Nature and her violent ways.  These days with our modern access to roads and the convenience we afford with our vehicles, easily forget what the true definition of  journey is.  Most folks see a sign somewhere and with little more thought on the matter assume that they are quite near if not right on top of the quest at hand.  People used to walk to get anywhere regardless of the distance.  When you say lets go on a treasure hunt, maybe a week of so comes to mind if that where compared to the old days you carried a rifle and the rest on your back.  6 to 8 weeks was probably more realistic then and of course their was the walk back as well.  Sign, distance, water, grub, maps and all of the rest were looked at from an entirely different view and they were not in some kind of worry over getting back to town in a few days.  All of this is to explain that todays weekend warrior is missing the objective that these signs work around and at the same time they are victims to the very design intended.  Your going to need a much bigger topo my friends;  extend those lines some and look at the big picture.  One must think like a Monk on foot with all of the time in the world to fool the treasure hunter, especially the ones who should locate their tablets.

A scene by the master's hand.
Men,some with hats.
Long hair.
And capes.

Regards:SH
Could the stone "Priest" be not a "witch" after all?
Could his pulpit be a pueblo?
Perhaps it's not a pulpit.
Or even a priest at all.
Or Navajo.
But could "1847" be a reference to the last Pueblo Revolt?

Hey Joe,

When, where and at what time is Rendezvous. As you probably know by now I do not get out much. I haven't shared any of this information until these last few posts. Looking forward to meeting you as I have visited other LD sites and have found that your work is well respected. Thanks for the photos of the Heart Mountain area which I am very familiar with, for the information found on this site will blow everyone away. Let's compare notes and we will come up with a plan.

In an earlier post I had mentioned that you must study the hearts; the "Heart Stone" has three (the two sided insert/heart stone and the heart cavity on the tablet itself). There are three hearts on the mountain side; two on the east side and one on the west, these are the easier of the hearts to find.
This number is of the most importance; thirty-three (33) the absolute truth. You have three hearts on the "Heart Stone" and three hearts on the mountain sides. Hey all, this is an absolute truth; the "Stone Maps" were meant to be used on this site. Stick with us and we will let the story unfold one piece at a time.

I also would like to post some pics and share my knowledge on the "Treasure Signs and Symbols" Forum. So many people have a real interest in signs and symbols. If they are going to continue to seek these items out I would like to share the rule book with those who are interested in getting out into the field and putting this knowledge to work. I am not in any way or manner going to give away the family store. As we have seen this day a small amount of knowledge was introduced on the web for all to see, however the signs and symbols are so complex it will take a lifetime to understand them all.   

Take care all.

EB

They are as complicated as a child's mind without the distractions of adults and that darn wisdom that keeps tripping us all up.  Like the good book says, you must first return to the form of a child.  There you will find the answers to God's many mysteries;  answers of which many things you already know.   Simplicity is the key.

  History note,that may or may not apply to some parts of this thread. The most common Sacrafice the Aztecs engaged in was Heart extraction,end. Question,comment,is it possible that some Jesuit padres were converted to a Indian way of thought,and comingled their beliefs with Indians and possibly also a new specie of offspring,thus leading to a whole new way of thinking for that time peroid...REmmember I"m 60,dont all pound on me at once, I also drive a taxi 60hrs a weekand need my focus.gd

Hey Old Dog,

Great comment!

If you like to read and you can make the time i would like to see you procure a copy of "The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico" by Bernal Diaz del Castillo. It will rock your world pertaining to the life and times of the Aztec and Templar world of the 1500's. Make no mistake the Jesuits were there with these Templar Knights (or Conquistadors if you wish) to find the Seven Cities of Cibola (or have you ever thought of the seven ships that disapeared from the harbor of Rochelle in France)? I know there were more, some went to Scotland, some went to Great Britain, some went to Ethiopia and I will bet money that one or two showed up at Oak Island. You also have Victorio Peak and the Aztec kingdom because they were there before Cortes and the Aztecs were waiting for their return.The King (Carlos III) had sent his personal confession Jesuit Priest ( Frey Juan de la Garcia?) to control all monies, baptisms, lands, schools and universities as the Jesuits were there en mass.

If any of them developed a liking for this peganism in was due to their personal nature or they had an Aztec wife who led them to follow in worship. Look at what happened to the Israelites who took up as their wives the conquered people that they should have destroyed. the whored themselves out to false gods and later their nation faced the penalties. The Knights were not perfect and they acted no less different than we do today. Do you not see us as living in the days of Noah? History repeats itself, any of you disagree?

EB

A good historical account of the story of "The seven ships of Alexandre Auffredi"
http://www.francemonthly.com/n/0406/index.php
It doesn't really explain how or why they sailed to different continents,or how they managed the logistics for all to arrive back in port from points all over the map seven years later,but it does name the "riches" that they returned with,all of which were traded from the ports of western and northern africa.

Regards:SH

It wouldn't surprise me if a number of galleons were loaded with treasure and purposely sunk in shallow waters off of any one of the coastal ports along the gulf.  I remember reading where some of the Monks hooked up with organized piracy after the King put them up as criminals.  There are likenesses to the tablets that have some resemblances to the construction of Oak Island of which I still feel was just an elaborate distraction if not a trap built with slaves in an effort to keep the crown busy in vain.  This same geometric map codex was used by the KGC and every other group of Masons walking in secrecy with stolen loot.  Other than the loss of life due to world war, I find it hard to see where knowledge of these simple childlike map codes came into being as a lost art and why it has become such a mystery in itself.  Any one of the Pirate captains of historic fame as well as the hierarchy of the KGC would have been able to translate the tablets with ease. 

Dear Ellie Baba;
You wrote:
If you like to read and you can make the time i would like to see you procure a copy of "The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico" by Bernal Diaz del Castillo. It will rock your world pertaining to the life and times of the Aztec and Templar world of the 1500's. Make no mistake the Jesuits were there with these Templar Knights (or Conquistadors if you wish) to find the Seven Cities of Cibola (or have you ever thought of the seven ships that disapeared from the harbor of Rochelle in France)? I know there were more, some went to Scotland, some went to Great Britain, some went to Ethiopia and I will bet money that one or two showed up at Oak Island. You also have Victorio Peak and the Aztec kingdom because they were there before Cortes and the Aztecs were waiting for their return.The King (Carlos III) had sent his personal confession Jesuit Priest ( Frey Juan de la Garcia?) to control all monies, baptisms, lands, schools and universities as the Jesuits were there en mass.


First, the Knights Templars were disbanded in 1312 A.D. by Pope Clement V, some 200 years before the first Conquistadores arrived in the New World, which means there were no Templars amonst the Conquistadores.

Next, the first Jesuits did not exist as an Order until 1537 A.D. and they did not send any missionaries to the New World colonies until after 1609 A.D. which meant that they were not a part of the Conquistador parties.

Next, the Franciscans use the title "Fray" and the Jesuits use the title "Brother". Next, the Spaniards did not use the words "DE LA" (OF THE in English) in association with surnames (or last names) and as such, the words "de la" are only used in conjunction with a place name. Garcia is a surname therefore DE LA would not be associated with the name.

Next, I've studied the text of Bernal Diaz del Castillo and nowhere did he state that the Conquistadores were accompanied by either Templars or Jesuits. He did however, state the names of the Franciscan and Dominican friars and priests who accompanied the Conquistadores, because those were the two primary Catholic missionary Orders at the time.

Next, king Carlos III was never on friendly terms with the Jesuits, seeing as how it was he whom had expelled the Jesuits from Spain and her colonies in 1767. In the years preceeding the Jesuit expulsion, King Carlos III was at first cordial to the Jesuits and becoming increasingly more hostile towards the Order as time passed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

EB,

I assume that everyone who is interested in the "Montezuma Treasure" has read the account of Bernal Diaz del Castillo.  I have two copies of the book, one for reading and the other a collectors edition.  There are many accounts of Aztec life and the subjugation of the native population of Mexico, and I have enjoyed reading and learning about that interesting period of history for Mexico.

Our own treatment of our native population pales in comparison to what the Spaniards did in Mexico......and South America, to name just two places.

Is it your contention that "Montezuma's Treasure" is the treasure that was hidden in the wall where Cortez and his men were first quartered?

Using 2,000 warriors to move that treasure into Arizona.......or any other place in the United States, seems like a stretch considering the dangers they were facing at home.  By the time they reached our country, they would be ravaged by smallpox which was killing more natives than battles were.

The Spaniards were very good at extracting information, including the hiding places of gold.  Gold, while it was of value, was not the most valuable treasure for the Aztec's.  I don't think gold was a major factor for them in fighting the Spanish invasion. 

Have you found a single historical reference to "Montezuma's Treasure" being spirited out of Mexico?

Lamar,

Your post was spot on and, of course, historically correct.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

.... Have you found a single historical reference to "Montezuma's Treasure" being spirited out of Mexico? ...

Only in TH magazines and on internet forums.  It's my opinion that North America may have been a major source of the Mexica's gold, based on pre-migration knowledge. 

Thanking you for correcting my information. I apologize for the misinformation pertaining to the book. I have so much info in my head that I will need to go back to my notes and documentation referring to the claims that I have made and make them available to the forum. There is so much material to go through and most of it has not been scanned so it is not available on my computer. It has always been something that I was going to do. I spent some time at the Brophy Jesuit College a number of years ago and found some information pertaining to the Jesuits and their work in the New World. The Templars were decomissioned by the Pope and King Phillip the Fair. However the group stayed in touch they just became parts of different organizations. The Templars and the Jesuits were very close to each other and worked together hand in hand. Father Kino made three trips to Heart Mountain and there on the river was the "Village de Manje", dedicated to Manje by the local native population.

I spent a number of hours with Chuck Kenworthy discussing the Heart Mountain area and the documentation that he had in his possesion which came from the Archives located at the Vatican. The Holy Child of the Atocha and the Horse of the Holy Faith were
witnesses to the sites location. The treasure found on the Atocha by Mel Fisher was due to the fact that Kenworthy had given this documentation to Mel Fisher. The treasure itself was loaded on a barge that had navigated down the river and was placed in the hold of the Atocha near the Sea of Cortez.

Everyone seems to believe that the Horse Tablet has the name of Pedro written on it. If you examine the original Stone Maps found at the Mining and Mineral museum here in Phoenix, AZ. The actual word is Pedico= belonging to a beloved child, or sodomy (Defined in the following Latin, Greek, German, Portuguese and other languages). Ped meaning foot, pedico also meaning shoe or hoof. Look at the horse's left rear hoof and you will be able to see an anchor incorporated into it's design.

I am rambling on again, take care.

EB

EB,

I don't' believe Chuck Kenworthy had anything to do with Mel Fisher finding the Atocha.  I would suggest you read "The  Search for the Atocha" by Dr. Eugene Lyon for a good history of that search.

As far as I know, Kenworthy never provided any original evidence for any of his claims that he received information from archives, in Mexico City or Spain.  Everything was unsubstantiated.  Having seen his presentation on the Stone Maps, I am not impressed in the least.  In fact, Kenworthy confused himself during his explanations.

If you would like a few quotations from Dr. Lyon's book, pertaining to his discovery of the information that led Fisher to move closer to the coast, and success, I will be happy to provide them.

Take care,

Joe

Dear group;
I harbor serious doubts that Mr. Charles Kenworthy will ever be proclaimed as a fount of knowledge pertaining to early Jesuit activity in the New World colonies.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi Group,

This has nothing to do with Joe or Lamar, for they are entitled to their own opinions. I just wanted to tell you a little about the treasure hunter I had befriended.

My Father always told me that you had to walk in the other guy's shoes before you pass judgement.
Did you all know that Chuck's father was also a treasure hunter? I knew more about Chuck before I ever met him. Much of the talk then was as it is now; not real good. My Father passed away some time ago and my Mom and I were having dinner at the Village Inn in AJ. As we walked down the aisle
Chuck was sitting at a table by himself and he recognized me from one of his book selling events. He asked us to sit down and have dinner with him. My Mom knew her stuff when it came to the Dutchman and she and Chuck really hit it off. We had a number of dinners together and all we ever talked about was the treasure. Guys and Gals, he was just like us. Searching for the truth and the proof that out there somewhere was a pile of loot or a lost gold mine. Chuck did have a drinking problem as some folks do, we know a few of them ourselves, we would say, "This guy really knows his stuff, but he drinks to damn much". Understand that Chuck was not in the best of health in his last years and he knew for some time that the cancer was killing him. Chuck Kenworthy was a friend and fellow treasure hunter, and yes you had to watch him for he was a tricky little son of a gun. if any of you know Salvador DelGadillo he is slow when it comes time to judge someone. He respected Kenworthy, but he didn't care for him. If it wasn't for Chuck I wouldn't have learned the basics of monuments, signs and symbols and so on. Yes, he had problems, who doesn't. I will never forget those days for we talked for hours and hours, and I do miss him.

Later,

EB

From the horses mouth;  just to look at the carving for a while leads to a sort of animation in your mind as does a child's imagination with a comic book.  The horse is telling us where his pasture is and the main feature is the horse without his gear.  Maybe theres water there like the tail that sweeps as a river and bends a certain way.  He appears to be shackled and branded with sign.  He pastures to the North and looks to the South.  The horses Master is a miner and his horse watches him in the distance.  Just a distance if there were anything heavy to carry and probably quite near by.  The background of the horse is empty and probably in the open as open pasture would be.  The view of  that of the artist's, sitting on a special rock at the edge of the pasture. with the horse and the open view behind him.................

EB,

My comments had nothing to do with Chuck Kenworthy's character, or even what he may have believed.  Nice to see you defending your friend.

Take care,

Joe