The Peralta Stones

Ok in reply sort of to post 521 above,Gollum , here is a section from a map showing the Martydom of Father Saeta, dated 1695, made by Father Kino. Useing a magniying glass I can determine that the lettering is quite different and distinct from   what I believe are modern letters  showing on your gold or silver ingot. True the ingot and map were not made by and inscribed by the same persons, but the lettering should be in the same time peroid, and very similar.    

Do you REALLY think that handwritten script from the hand of Father Kino is going to look anything like what would be cast into ingots? Not likely.

Below is a picture of one of the Atocha Silver Bars. The lettering on it does not look much like any I have seen hand written either. Are you saying that this 82 Troy Pound bar is a fake. It is a well known and documented Atocha recovery.

Lamar,

As usual, you light brush off something that doesn't fit neatly into your world of Jesuocity (my word). I know for a fact (as I have stated time and again), that the finder could have in no way afforded the $500,000 necessary to perpetrate a fraud. Also, they sold the gold for its content, and did not get anything over current spot gold price. That would tend to negate your belief in them being fakes. After all, buying a bunch of gold, and making it worth more than its' gold content is the only reason to perpetrate this type of fraud.

When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know.

Best-Mike

[I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards.]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

The Jesuits succeeded in their labors and this can evidenced in the survival of the native American peoples of today. Their cultures may have disappeared but their bloodlines have carried forward and it's my very humble opinion that we all owe the Jesuits a huge THANK YOU for their heroic efforts in this regard

Thank you?  For what?    According to the Franciscan fathers who followed on the heels of the Jesuits, they found the Indios utterly un-instructed in much of anything, other than they expected that they would be forced to work for the padres.  In fact if we examine the Amerindian areas most influenced by the Jesuits, do we see people living in prosperity, or people living in poverty?  The Jesuits may have been successful in "protecting" the Indios from the "evil" Spaniards who wanted them for slaves, but what does it say when these same Indios were running away from the missions, in order to go to work in the mines?  Even in the case I mentioned earlier, the Indio testified, quote

So because of this and because the fires of rebellion were getting very hot, I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards. With this purpose I went to the ranch of Don Bernardo de Urrea to look for my horses, and then I returned to get my children with whom I went to Agua Caliente. Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, "You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts."

<Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa María Suamca, November 29, 1751" (AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35>
 

...our history revisionists and Jesuit apologists seem to wish to deny and gloss over the fact that the mission system was rather brutal, strict and virtual enslavement for the Amerindians who were baptized into it.  I do not see any justification in granting a huge THANK YOU to the Jesuits for their work, based on the results.

Lamar also wrote

Also, as a point of fact, Fr. DeSmet did not discover a gold mine, rather he discovered very rich gold deposits, the exact location of which he never devulged, and the reason he cited for refusing to divulge the location of the deposits was because he didn't wish for anyone *to disturb his children*, that being the Amerindians living in the Black Hills region of North Dakota. He spoke of the Black Hills deposits publicly only once in his lifetime, that being at a banquet which was given in his honor at St. Louis University, in St. Louis, Mo. (a Jesuit funded and run university, by the way) around 1866 AD. He took the secret with him to his grave. That was a very honorable man, in my very humble opinion.

In his own letter written to his brother, he refers to it as a "mine" and this is how it is commonly referred to among history books.  The fact that he made the existence public knowledge in 1866 certainly did nothing to help hold back the "evil white men" from entering the Black Hills, in fact it encouraged them to do so.  Several expeditions were organized in that period, of which none were successful.  The first "proof" of gold in the hills came not from father DeSmet nor the Custer expedition but from the Dakota Indians, who brought nuggets in to trade at a fort.  Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.

I would also point out that the gold regions of the Black Hills lie mostly in South Dakota, with a small adjacent region in adjoining Wyoming, but none in NORTH Dakota.  (Still don't know why they divided these two states north-south, when east-west would have made perfect sense and was what the Black Hillers even asked for.  Politicks...... )

Now Lamar has denied that the Jesuits were involved in gold and/or silver mining.  Here is what the info page for the city of Cananea Sonora has to say, quote

The mining activity within Cananea has a lengthy history. The registry dates from 1760, when Jesuit missionaries discovered abundant deposits of gold and silver, resulting in the beginning of mining operations in Cobre Grande (The Great Copper mine). Mr. William Cornell Green was the founder and creative mind behind The Cananea Consolidated Copper Company.

http://www.gotosonora.com/cananea-son-mx.htm

Or how about this, quote

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests.  Mining in Sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards.  The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged  in the extraction and refining of silver  ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel.  According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even acquire knowledge of mining.  But apparently, ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres.  Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose' at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity.  During the late seventeenth century annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries.

   <pp 62, Sonora: its geographical personality
 By Robert Cooper West, 1993>

We could debate whether the Jesuits were a positive or negative influence on southwestern history probably ad nauseum.  I think we can lay the wholesale denials of Jesuit mining to rest once and for all however, and we ought to also lay to rest the idea that there were many thousands of Jesuit mines and/or treasures scattered literally all over the American (and Mexican) west - there was never that much activity.  It has become common practice to refer to ancient mines as "Jesuit" when most were actually just Spanish, and some were even owned and operated by the Indios themselves (the southern Pimas and Opatas especially were active and successful miners).  The Jesuits were the religious leaders and have thus become "tied" to many more mines than they truly had any kind of ownership or management of, because they were perceived as the masters by the Indios from whom most of our treasure legends originate.  As with many parts of history, the truth lay between the extremes we are offered. 
Oroblanco
 

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
In his own letter written to his brother, he refers to it as a "mine" and this is how it is commonly referred to among history books.  The fact that he made the existence public knowledge in 1866 certainly did nothing to help hold back the "evil white men" from entering the Black Hills, in fact it encouraged them to do so.  Several expeditions were organized in that period, of which none were successful.  The first "proof" of gold in the hills came not from father DeSmet nor the Custer expedition but from the Dakota Indians, who brought nuggets in to trade at a fort.  Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.


No, Fr. DeSmet did not refer to his discovery as a mine in the letter he wrote to his brother, my friend. Fr. DeSmet was from Fleming, therefore his native tongue was Dutch, which is the language that the original letter was written it. It would seem that some ill-informed American mistranslated the original document.

Next, you wrote:
Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.


That only pertained to the pre-suppression Jesuits and it did not include those Jesuits whom were a part of the Society after the Order's restoration. Plus, that rule only pertained to Jesuits in the northern missions of New Spain.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Gollum;

You wrote:
As usual, you light brush off something that doesn't fit neatly into your world of Jesuocity (my word). I know for a fact (as I have stated time and again), that the finder could have in no way afforded the $500,000 necessary to perpetrate a fraud. Also, they sold the gold for its content, and did not get anything over current spot gold price. That would tend to negate your belief in them being fakes. After all, buying a bunch of gold, and making it worth more than its' gold content is the only reason to perpetrate this type of fraud.

When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know.


And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Ladies & Gentlemen: A few thoughts.

A)  It is known that I have found and own Tayopa, a mine that was supposedly run by the by the Jesuits.  It is claimed in here that this was impossible because the Jesuits simply did not mine.  This is not true since there were orders that if Jesuit acquired a mine by inheritance, or other means, he could continue working it  until there was an opportunity to dispose of it.  This is not an outright ban, but a specific loophole.

Tayopa was an exceedingly rich operation, it was never registered in the mining archives as required.  No civilian could ever hope to keep it's location secret for long, but a group that were united into a common cause could, and did.

If someone had accidentally stumbled upon Tayopa and found that it hadn't been registered,  he could simply file on the property at the nearest mining agency and own it legally. Obviously he wouldn't, if he found that it was being operated by the Society.

The Indians up there told me that their ancestors claimed that the Black robes told them that all metals such as Gold and Silver belonged to mother earth, and as such, only they could borrow them from Mother earth.  This was backed by an horrible, undefined, curse to those that disobeyed.  Even today, the remote Indians still believe this.  I personally have known some that did, and shortly after died, a psychosomatic  factor obviously, but still lethal.

B)  As I mentioned, why was the Resident Jesuit in Yecora so insistant in having a meeting to discuss Tayopa after learning that I had found it?

C)  I refer you to my last post in which several questions were asked and still are unanswered, merely brushed aside.

D)  Lamar can you give me a complete listing of ALL of the missions or locations staffed by member of the Jesuit Society in northern Mexico from the Sea of Cortez to Matamorros within the dates of 1700 - 1769? They need not be 'ordained' personnel, probably weren't, but trusted members perhaps such as yourself, but nevertheless, members of the Jesuit Society. 

To blithefully ignore, or write off any evidence,  due to lack of confirmation From Rome is illogical, since the very nature of the subject is kept hidden by the authors themselves.

This will do for an opening.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Lamar my friend, and you are my friend, despite our minor differences:You posted this to My other friend Gully -->

"And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May I point out that this presupposes that they all came from the same mine or mineral zone.  Hence your request, while logical, is basically pointless.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"

Lamar my friend, and you are my friend, despite our minor differences:You posted this to My other friend Gully -->

"And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May I point out that this presupposes that they all came from the same mine or mineral zone.  Hence your request, while logical, is basically pointless.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"

Don Jose,

I don't believe you can pre-suppose anything about Lamar's questions.  There could be more than one reason for his asking each of those questions.  Your points are valid, but may not reflect Lamar's points.  I have no doubt he will address this himself.


As for the Jesuit interest in your find, that seems more than natural to me, as I have mentioned to you before.  After all, it has been claimed that the mine is Jesuit and you have stated the same thing.  Like it or not, Tayopa and the Jesuit history in Mexico are tied together forever.  The truth of that connection is not really important to what you are doing.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Mike,

"When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know."

It seems to me, that if Kenworthy believed the bars were authentic, he would have crowed like a rooster.  They would have been submitted for analysis and advertised as artifacts.  Because they have completely disappeared, I believe Chuck knew he couldn't carry on with his claims and let the story die a natural death.

Just another usless opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Yes, what Cactusjumper posted is the truth, I have many more reasons for waiting verification of the caches than meets the eye.
First, if one of the caches is false, then that can eliminate the Jesuits as possible culprits. On the other hand, if any of the caches were to be authentic, they could possibly be used to implicate the Jesuits, and more importantly, it would behoove all interested parties to remember that "When it rains, it pours" so to speak. In other words, the veracity of the cache would lend some credence to the theory that there are even more as yet undiscovered caches. This in turn, would give cause to devoting time and effort in locating and recovering said caches.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits were usually paid in silver, so a large number of gold artifacts with priests names on them would be indicative of........something.  Fraud would be my guess, but It's possible the Jesuits had gold mines and wanted to make sure that no one thought that the gold ingots did not belong to them.

I suppose it would be akin to someone murdering their ex wife and carving their name in her forehead.  A bit macabre, but effectively marking ownership of the deed.  While Jesuit treasure hunters have claimed the Fathers were clever enough to hide their mining activity from the public......for centuries, they were stupid enough to sign the evidence to their crime.

I suppose anything is possible.

Take care,

Joe

good morning Lamar, my friend:  you posted-->

"First, if one of the caches is false, then that can eliminate the Jesuits as possible culprits".
~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps you may wish to rephrase that ?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"

Dear Real de Tayopa;
If the caches are fake, then obviously the Jesuits could not have been involved, which they were not. Common sense tells us that the Jesuits are innocent of any and all charges levied against them as individuals or as an Order.
Your friend;
LAMAR

god morning Lamar MGF:  You posted-->

"Common sense tells us that the Jesuits are innocent of any and all charges levied against them as individuals or as an Order"
~~~~~~~~~~
Common sense does not hold up in a court of law as you well know, However common sense as applied to Tayopa, indicates that only they could have operated it clandestinely.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
You wrote:

Common sense does not hold up in a court of law as you well know, However common sense as applied to Tayopa, indicates that only they could have operated it clandestinely.


Yes, however we are not in a court of law and the Jesuits are not on trial, my friend, therefore we can use common sense to our heart's content.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[not]

Cactusjumper wrote

I suppose it would be akin to someone murdering their ex wife and carving their name in her forehead.  A bit macabre, but effectively marking ownership of the deed.  While Jesuit treasure hunters have claimed the Fathers were clever enough to hide their mining activity from the public......for centuries, they were stupid enough to sign the evidence to their crime.

Is it so strange, if you consider that it was probably intended to be shipped on Jesuit ships?  According to the Jesuits' own letters (the "Relacions") they had their own ships.  In such a case, ownership marks would be logical, so long as the goods were never seized by the secular authorities. Also, we know that the Padres were often entrusted with monies and valuables belonging to the secular authorities as well as lay persons, so ownership marks would not be unusual if these valuables were stored together.

This argument does not prove the Kenworthy's bars were genuine, but the fact that he did not publish his find strikes me as very odd if they were false.  Compare this to Milton Rose, who presented fake bars and published his finds.  It does not make sense to keep it private unless they WERE genuine and he did not want anyone trying to make a legal claim against him.  For me, the bars remain a mystery, but leaning towards their being genuine.

I also tend to take people at face value, until proven otherwise - and the BS artists never take long to show their hand.  Besides, as the old saying goes, "we are just what we pretend to be" at least to those around us.  For instance if a fellow dresses as a cowboy, acts like a cowboy, then most people take him to be a real cowboy -  for all intents and purposes he IS a cowboy, until he should prove that assumption false.    <And NO I do not pretend to be a cowboy!>
Oroblanco
 

Dear Oroblanco;
I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[against]

HOLA mi amigo Lamar,

<Lamar wrote>

I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.

First, the references to having their own ships are found in the Jesuit Relacions, in letters written by Jesuit fathers.  It appears that you have leapt to the conclusion this means some kind of a "private navy" when in context it seems to be saying their own HIRED ships, not ships built or manned by Jesuit priests.  It is not in error to say "our ship" if it is a hired or leased vessel, but is a different situation than having a private navy, as the Vatican had.  I realize the Papal navy was a quite small squadron, and likely spent most time in the Mediterranean but I suppose it is possible that a Papal ship made the voyage to America.  Do you know of any instance in which a vessel of the Papal navy crossed the Atlantic?  Thank you in advance. 

Second, why should the Vatican have had any proscriptions against the hiring or leasing of ships, when the very needs of the missions and produce to be sold were being transported?  I see no good argument against such a pragmatic approach, especially when the missions were in dire need of such things as food, tools, medicine etc or that at least in some cases, the missions were being charged exhorbitant prices for shipping out their produce to sell in Europe.  (Several letters complained of this and even listed the ridiculous fees being charged by the ship owners.) I must confess, this objection on your part mystifies me. 
Oroblanco 

Mike,

"When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know."

It seems to me, that if Kenworthy believed the bars were authentic, he would have crowed like a rooster.  They would have been submitted for analysis and advertised as artifacts.  Because they have completely disappeared, I believe Chuck knew he couldn't carry on with his claims and let the story die a natural death.

Just another usless opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Just shows that you didn't know CK. While he may have had a big ego, he was also a very intelligent person. A very intelligent person with a lot of money, who was also smart enough to know that if he publicized his finds, there would be legal and fiscal issues that he would have  to address. Also, from my understanding, there is a LOT of information that he never put in his books. You always have to remember that he had founded Quest (a Treasure Hunting LLC). He shared some of what he knew, but kept back some of the more important stuff.

Best-Mike

[I PROMISED TO BUILD THE CHURCH AT MY EXPENSE"]

Dear Oroblanco;
I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.

Also, for a Padre who was as poor as Kino was supposed to have been, maybe this statement should raise a couple of eyebrows:

After the dedication ceremonies, Minutuli rode to San Ignacio, where Kino joined him and accompanied him to his Mission of Tubutama. The Dolores Missionary (Kino) had prepared for Minutuli's arrival ~........................ ~ "We made plans for a good and spacious Church and House. I PROMISED TO BUILD THE CHURCH AT MY EXPENSE"

Quote from Father Kino SJ to Father Minutuli SJ, regarding the bvuilding of a new church at Tubutama, from: "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" pg 140 by Father Ernest Burrus SJ.

Best-Mike

Dear Gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.


My friend, are you REALLY unaware that Caborca happens to be situated in a DESERT? And being a desert, to the very best of my knowledge, there are no large TREES, as trees require a substantial amount of rainfall annually in order to grow, prosper and become TIMBER, which was of course the principle building material in the construction of ships during that era. What were they going to build this ship out of, adobe perhaps?

It would perhaps been a bit more plausible if the author chose to accuse Fr. Kino of comissioning a ship to be built further south along the Pacific shore where there actually exists enough tree growth to support the building and outfitting of a ship.

I've been to Caborca and I've seen the dust devils rising a couple of hundred feet above the ground. As far as I am aware, the area surrounding Caborca has been this way since at least since the very first colonists arrived and it's only been in very modern times that irrigation has allowed for the agriculturists to produce substainable crops.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Oroblanco;
The Vatican did maintain a fleet of leased ships from at least 857AD until 1870 AD, when the main port of Civitavecchia became a part of Italy. The Papal fleet was most usually a part of the merchant Navy and was overseen by an appointed official from the Vatican.

In reality, the Vatican did phyiscally own some vessels of war, the most notable being the HHFS San Paolo and the HHFS San Pietro, both with 30 guns and both being decomissioned about 1779 AD. As an aside, HHFS stands for His Holy Father's Ship.

With extremely rare exceptions, the Papal fleet plied the trade routes of the Mediterranean and they were used to support the missions at Rhodes, Malta, Crete and Cyprus.

As far as the ports of the New World are concerned, the Papal ships did not attempt an Atlantic crossing until at least the early 1700s, when they dispatched several Papal envoys. Before this time the Vatican relied on Spanish, Portuguese and French commerical and military ships for the bulk of their traffic to and from the New World colonies.

The primary reason why the Papal fleet seldom plied the Atlantic was due to the size of it's ships. The Papal fleet consisted of mainly Mediterranean style cargo galleys which were much better suited for the Med than the rough, inconsistent waters of the open Atlantic. 
Your friend;
LAMAR

[While he may have had a big ego, he was also a very intelligent person. A very intelligent person with a lot of money, who was also smart enough to know that if he publicized his finds, there would be legal and fiscal issues that he would have to address. Also, from my understanding, there is a LOT of information that he never put in his books. You always have to remember that he had founded Quest (a Treasure Hunting LLC). He shared some of what he knew, but kept back some of the more important stuff.]

Good Morning Mike,

[Hey Joe,

Just shows that you didn't know CK. While he may have had a big ego, he was also a very intelligent person. A very intelligent person with a lot of money, who was also smart enough to know that if he publicized his finds, there would be legal and fiscal issues that he would have  to address. Also, from my understanding, there is a LOT of information that he never put in his books. You always have to remember that he had founded Quest (a Treasure Hunting LLC). He shared some of what he knew, but kept back some of the more important stuff.
Best-Mike]
__________________________________________

It's true I didn't "know" Kenworthy.  Never met the man.  On the other hand, I have read his books and seen the tape of him explaining his conclusions on the Stone Maps.  During that talk, he became totally confused by his own figures.  The numbers made no sense, including to Chuck.  That told me that his conclusions were not based on any natural progression of logic.  IMHO, It was less than impressive.

The portion of your post that I highlighted are a spot on description of Bernie Madoff.  Everyone who met him thought he was a great guy.  You can draw your own conclusions to any parallels.

Take care,

Joe

[large]

Thank you Lamar, I was unaware that any vessel of the Papal fleet had ever crossed the Atlantic, but did not research such incidental voyages as transporting an important emissary.  I would think such voyages would be rare indeed, and likely not capable of hauling along cargoes of seed wheat, barley, flour, bolts of cloth etc.   At least not a large cargo of such common goods, I would expect.

I wonder if anyone has ever compiled a history of the Papal navy?  Might make for an interesting project, if a person had access to the necessary records.  Just musing, of course.
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
As far as I am aware, a complete and comprehensive history of the Papal fleet was written by a Dominican Brother around 1888 AD or somewhere along that time line. Let me try and chase him down and see if I can pinpoint the Brother's name, volume title and date it was published.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Good morning Lamar:  You posted -->

My friend, are you REALLY unaware that Caborca happens to be situated in a DESERT?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is quite true, but it was common practice to designate  a Missions's area of influence, rather than the precise location of the actual missions buildings and grounds in correspondence such as this..

So,  In practicality & actuality, if not a precise locality,  Gully's remark or quote is quite correct.

It was also asked if data on the Vatican Navy is available, yes it has been chronicled various times

Don Jose de La Mancha

CJ,

     Same influences as the Templars.  More on the level of sacred than soldiers.  Folks largely refuse to accept spiritual intervention of the dreamers or automatic revelation and the like in a modernised  world;  Such is the source and reputation of this kind of soul.  Will the man who assassinates the Anti-Christ be viewed as a saint or a sinner?  Is this something the Pope would appreciate or condemn?  Thou shall not commit murder;  not thou shall not kill.  Would it be the works of God or the Devil?  Many through history have been viewed as the coming Monster of Prophecy, and the wealth and power of the church as being the only power against his rise.  Hoods with blades, not unlike the apostles.  The Jackals going forth that precede armies in the overthrow of evil tyrants and their families.  Assassins in the shadows, taking from one ear to the other.  Why do you think that Christians are now viewed by our government agencies as terrorists?  It goes with the territory brother;   Communism.  Like a monkey and his tin cup on a leash, held by a Kazar who whimsically grinds out your entertainment.  After a servant of God takes out the Anti-Christ, he will rise again as Kong.  The Jesuits were watching for him in the turmoil of their times;  hearing the echo as he approaches.

[respectfully disagree with this statement]

Twisted Fork wrote

Why do you think that Christians are now viewed by our government agencies as terrorists?

Well again I must respectfully disagree with this statement which sounds rather like nonsense put out by various right-wing  fringe groups.  Do you have some kind of proof to support this statement?  Your statements viz killing an Antichrist, do you have someone in mind to fill that bill?  I would point out that it would be very easy for a person to mistakenly identify someone as an Antichrist in targeting that person for elimination, and thus open the door to a real one. 

Mr Fork I doubt you will provide any proof requested, however I am getting a pretty clear picture of your views.  Have you entertained the possibility that you could be in error?
Oroblanco

 

Dear Gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.


My friend, are you REALLY unaware that Caborca happens to be situated in a DESERT? And being a desert, to the very best of my knowledge, there are no large TREES, as trees require a substantial amount of rainfall annually in order to grow, prosper and become TIMBER, which was of course the principle building material in the construction of ships during that era. What were they going to build this ship out of, adobe perhaps?

It would perhaps been a bit more plausible if the author chose to accuse Fr. Kino of comissioning a ship to be built further south along the Pacific shore where there actually exists enough tree growth to support the building and outfitting of a ship.

I've been to Caborca and I've seen the dust devils rising a couple of hundred feet above the ground. As far as I am aware, the area surrounding Caborca has been this way since at least since the very first colonists arrived and it's only been in very modern times that irrigation has allowed for the agriculturists to produce substainable crops.
Your friend;
LAMAR

The author you choose to denigrate is the eminent Jesuit Father Ernest J. Burrus SJ (I know the double references of Jesuit and SJ are overkill, but I am making a point).

WOW! I am amazed that there is something about Jesuit History that you are TOTALLY Unaware of! I once again reference Father Ernest Burrus SJ's excellent work "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" 1971

First Quote /page# 22-23, (nothing to do with Caborca, but regarding Jesuit Shipping):

Afte conferring with Atondo, Kino retraced his steps to Guadalajara and in early June he visited Rosario near the harbor of Mazatlan. He was soon in the saddle again; this time in order to ride back to Nio for the blessing of the three new ships: the Almiranta (a frigate with the high-sounding name of San Jose Y San Francisco Javier), the Capitana (another frigate, named La Concepcion), and the Balandra (a sloop).

Let's see, maybe Lamar can tell us who may have been referenced by using the name SAN FRANCISCO JAVIER?? HMMMMMMM provacative, I must say!

Next we go to pages 67-71 (specifically regarding KINO'S BOAT at CABORCA:

pg#67

The Missionary himself was not with Manje at the time the harbor was found (Santa Sabina), as he had remained in CABORCA to work on the boat.

pg# 68

Kino had returned from the first expedition on the eve of Ash Wednesday, as we have seen, and attended to his charges at Dolores and dependent missions until Tuesday, March 16, of that same yearof 1694, when he set out a second time with Manje. Kino's main purpose was to build a boat in sections, and haul them overland by oxen to the Gulf of California in preparation for an exploratory sea voyage.

I will only include some relevant quotes, as there are over twenty pages in this book alone dealing with Kino's Boat at Caborca. In case you thought it was just some little dinghy, this last quote will give an idea of the planned size of Kino's Boat pages 184-185:

The next day, March 21, was the Fourth of Laetare Sunday in Lent, but Kino was so anxious to get started on his boat, that he selected a huge Cottonwood. Inasmuch  as he wanted to obtain the largest plank possible from the tree, he had his crew dig down deep along the roots. They then tried to topple down the giant. Despite all the pulling and pushing, the tree refused to budge. Agile Manje climbed to the top branches, fastened the rope thrown to him; and, before he could descend, the impatient crew gave the rope a mighty tug. Down came the giant Cottonwood with Manje dangling helplessly in its' top branches. It landed with a mighty crash, the smaller branches flying into a thousand pieces. The crew got out of the way in time~~...............~~Manje was a scrupulous in measuring timber as he was in counting natives: "The trunk was cut thirty-eight feet long in order to secure a clean keel from stern to prow, not counting the bows and stern posts, which would be eighteen cubits". This would make the boat about sixty feet long.

So, once again, before making a statement that attempts to ridicule me, you might want to make an attempt at researching for yourself. It seems as though your knowledge of Caborca is as thin as your knowledge of Father Kino's Boat.

Your post upset me somewhat, because we usually get along very cordially (even when we completely disagree). I'm not used to you being so flippant. It seems that you are not even the same person that I usually debate with.  

Best-Mike

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation, and while I am NOT stating that they do not lead to the LDM, or anywhere else for that matter, there are not Representative of an old set of stone carvings. I've placed the time of the stone carvings to be somewhere around the 1930s, and carved by a person with a very poor knowledge of the Spanish language, Spanish writing style and Spanish art depictions.

Again, this is not to state that the stone maps do not represent the path to the LDM, merely that they are modern carvings and as such, your view of the maps should be based upon this knowledge. For all anyone knows, the maps could very possibly be leading the way towards an entirely different treasure cache.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi to my friend Lamar,

You are pretty close on the date although the stone maps will not lead you to the LDM, but other caches. Attached are two photographs; one of the Trail Map and the other of a photograph I had posted on the forum entitled, “How sure is it that the LDM is in the Superstitions”. See topic 241 posted Oct. 13, 2009. I had stated a number of times that the Stone Tablets were meant to be used in a specific location. The photograph contains two (circled) of the four symbols found on the Trail Map Stone (highlighted in black). The other circled areas indicate areas of interest as the area is covered with all kinds of symbols and strange anomalies. Some of the shadow art images are not yet in full phase. See satellite (Rose) interpretation on topic #176 Oct. 09, 2009. Notice 3 peaked symbol (M with inverted V) adjacent to a reversed 3 (three). This symbol is located next to the tip of the heart insert located on the Heart Stone.
These Stone Tablets were most likely made in the early 1900’s and are a second or third release. Any comments regarding insight or ideas are welcome.
Have a great week and I am looking forward to Rendezvous!
EB

OroBlanco,

     Go and join the F.B.I., so that when you go through your training in the field and they teach you that all organised Christian faiths are on the terrorists list, maybe a little light will go on in your head.  It's a fact bro.  I have seen video clips from briefcase cameras of it being done in the classroom.

The Kazars anxiously await the evil one's arrival knowing that he will destroy the dome of the rock and make way for their bloody goat sacrificing alter known as the Temple.  They do not accept Jesus as the slain lamb nor his body as the temple like our none liberal brothers before us the true Jesuit.  They now control your money, your food, your laws, your cops and your very life.  Our ancestors have fallen for the scam we have know as Judeo Christianity.   Jesus was a Levite and from Galilee like the fisherman less Judas;  see their way and end in him. The Good Shepard warned us all of these vile serpents in the grass.

  The Jesuits did all that they could do to undermine the gay lifestyles of these mindless liberals who have existed without heritage, opening the door to their own destruction.  The Pharisees were not and are now neither Hebrews nor of the 12 tribes;  they are impostors living in a tradition of their forefathers who were Russian barbarians, that did and do thrive on the invasion of homelands.  You would have thought that they had learned something from Nazi Germany, but obviously they have not and history will indeed repeat itself.     Study the Map   Study the Heart

Good morning my friends:  Gully you posted -->

"WOW! I am amazed that there is something about Jesuit History that you are TOTALLY Unaware of"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lamar, my friend, this leads to the obvious & natural remark / question  -

"perhaps this is why you have no information on the mining and plot with the Dutch either"? - - - - -or do You, but are witholding it!

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation, and while I am NOT stating that they do not lead to the LDM, or anywhere else for that matter, there are not Representative of an old set of stone carvings. I've placed the time of the stone carvings to be somewhere around the 1930s, and carved by a person with a very poor knowledge of the Spanish language, Spanish writing style and Spanish art depictions.

Again, this is not to state that the stone maps do not represent the path to the LDM, merely that they are modern carvings and as such, your view of the maps should be based upon this knowledge. For all anyone knows, the maps could very possibly be leading the way towards an entirely different treasure cache.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hi to my friend Lamar,

You are pretty close on the date although the stone maps will not lead you to the LDM, but other caches. Attached are two photographs; one of the Trail Map and the other of a photograph I had posted on the forum entitled, “How sure is it that the LDM is in the Superstitions”. See topic 241 posted Oct. 13, 2009. I had stated a number of times that the Stone Tablets were meant to be used in a specific location. The photograph contains two (circled) of the four symbols found on the Trail Map Stone (highlighted in black). The other circled areas indicate areas of interest as the area is covered with all kinds of symbols and strange anomalies. Some of the shadow art images are not yet in full phase. See satellite (Rose) interpretation on topic #176 Oct. 09, 2009. Notice 3 peaked symbol (M with inverted V) adjacent to a reversed 3 (three). This symbol is located next to the tip of the heart insert located on the Heart Stone.
These Stone Tablets were most likely made in the early 1900’s and are a second or third release. Any comments regarding insight or ideas are welcome.
Have a great week and I am looking forward to Rendezvous!
EB

I think you will find that these two peak carvings are two separate views of Black Mnt. as it is approached from two different directions.  N.E. up river from there, one will find this area;  the river turns are the key.  The Hat shape peak is mirrored in placement.  It is reference and not literal as there are numerous styles of hats.  When you are at the correct location along the river, you will see the hat peak above from the base of Fresco.  There is spill from the funnel, along one side of the river.  Fresco once a flowing spring, it placed it there into the river via it's stream.  Watch out for the Apache.  Both the tablets and the maps focus here;  you will have to see it to believe it I'm sure.  No forgeries here dude;  don't listen to fairies, OK?

Here is one collector to find for some juicy reading;  only the cover survives in my possession.

[I think I have a good idea where you stand.]

HOLA amigos,

Twisted Fork wrote

OroBlanco,

Go and join the F.B.I., so that when you go through your training in the field and they teach you that all organised Christian faiths are on the terrorists list, maybe a little light will go on in your head. It's a fact bro. I have seen video clips from briefcase cameras of it being done in the classroom.

The Kazars anxiously await the evil one's arrival knowing that he will destroy the dome of the rock and make way for their bloody goat sacrificing alter known as the Temple. They do not accept Jesus as the slain lamb nor his body as the temple like our none liberal brothers before us the true Jesuit. They now control your money, your food, your laws, your cops and your very life. Our ancestors have fallen for the scam we have know as Judeo Christianity. Jesus was a Levite and from Galilee like the fisherman less Judas; see their way and end in him. The Good Shepard warned us all of these vile serpents in the grass.

The Jesuits did all that they could do to undermine the gay lifestyles of these mindless liberals who have existed without heritage, opening the door to their own destruction. The Pharisees were not and are now neither Hebrews nor of the 12 tribes; they are impostors living in a tradition of their forefathers who were Russian barbarians, that did and do thrive on the invasion of homelands. You would have thought that they had learned something from Nazi Germany, but obviously they have not and history will indeed repeat itself. Study the Map Study the Heart

Join the FBI?  Sheesh your posts are getting even more far-out amigo.  It sure looks like it is you whom have been spoon-fed a load of erroneous, misleading "material" from sources that have their own agendas, which have nothing to do with what the USA was founded upon nor Christianity.  I won't trouble you any further with more questions, I think I have a good idea where you stand.

Mike, thank you for those references on Father Kino's "boat" which judging by the size, some might refer to as a "ship".  I am not sure why Lamar took such a negative stance concerning Jesuit ships, his objections are the first I have ever seen against the Jesuits having hired (and even built) their own ships.    Is there some shame or proscription against having hired ships <or for that matter, owning vessels outright>, in the Society of Jesus?  I do not recall ever running across such rule or any kind of restriction, other than the general rule about "commerce", that is pursuit of profit but even this rule was not always strictly enforced due to the various needs of the situation and times.  As Lamar has stated he is NOT a Jesuit, and in effect "guessing" as to what the Society might respond to our various subjects, we are left wondering what the Society would say?  

I have a question for anyone reading our discussion, does anyone have a link to a site which shows some of the various livestock (cattle especially) brands used in the Spanish Colonial period, for the southwestern region?  Thank you in advance,  
Oroblanco
 

Mr. Fork,

As you may know, I collect books.  Your cover is very interesting, and I have never seen it before.  Paul Bacon designed the cover for the first edition, first printing of "The Killer Mountains".  Did someone else design the cover you have?

I was lucky enough to pick up one of those first printings.  Curt inscribed it to his Mom:



Congratulations on having that unusual cover......at least unusual to me.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Twisted Fork wrote;

I think you will find that these two peak carvings are two separate views of Black Mnt. as it is approached from two different directions.  N.E. upriver from there, one will find this area; the river turns are the key.  The Hat shape peak is mirrored in placement.  It is reference and not literal as there are numerous styles of hats.  When you are at the correct location along the river, you will see the hat peak above from the base of Fresco.  There is spill from the funnel, along one side of the river.  Fresco once a flowing spring, it placed it there into the river via its stream.  Watch out for the Apache.  Both the tablets and the maps focus here; you will have to see it to believe it I'm sure.  No forgeries here dude; don't listen to fairies, OK?

The Stone Maps are applicable to a number of different locations or I should say depositories. The tablets are telling us where to focus our search which is on the north side of the RIO. EL Caballo de Santa Fe, Yo pasto al norte del rio. This statement is very specific and you must locate the Horse of the Holy Faith. I have seen these maps more than once and I would choose to put my cards on the table with the stone maps because the Holy Horse's statement is 100% accurate! I have witnessed seeing this same horse at least three times in three different locations; Holy Faith Horse #1 is located on the face of the Supers facing southeast, his eyes are focused on the cross. Holy Faith Horse #2 was found buried in a 33 foot basement sized hole that we had excavated due to certain information relating to the stone tablets. His skeleton, standing erect was facing a particular direction and his eyes were looking towards the Horse of the Holy Faith #3 on the north side of the river. We have now formed a geometric symbol (which at this time I cannot discuss). Found in the hole with the Percheron (a breed of work horse from the Perche Valley in Northern France) was a large heart fashioned from a metal band and a number of other objects identifying the Architects. We had taken the bones of this large animal to a Veterinarian to have the bones identified. It was also found that the bones contained a large amount of arsenic; guess what number represents arsenic on the periodic table? The number is 33. So what is with the threes? As some of you know the Father, Son and Holy Ghost represent the Trinity, the number three (3), the truth, 33 is defined as the absolute truth. Most of the symbols found on the stone maps can have three different meanings and only one is correct. There are three different planes of truth, physical, spiritual and the breath of God (the soul). Father, Son and Holy Ghost; the Father (God) breathes into us our soul which takes place at conception. God knew us as we were being knit together in our mother's womb. Adam the first Spirit, for the spiritual precedes the natural, caused us to be separated from God. Christ the Life Giving Spirit brings us back to God thru his sacrifice once and for all defeating death. For where O death is thy victory, where O death is thy sting? All souls are mine saith the Lord and unless ye are born again ye will be condemned. The Spirit of Christ will cleanse the soul of sin thereby we shall receive eternal life, but we must be born again. What? Shall I enter back into my mother’s womb? The Great Architect has a procedure that we must follow to find the greatest treasure of all. The Stone Maps have a procedure that we must also follow to find the treasure. There is no room for error; For you must work out your salvation with fear and trembling. I go 18 places and the trail is dangerous. I have never listened to fairies and I need to pay more attention to my God. I have not been listening to him either.
EB

[We had taken the bones of this large animal to a Veterinarian to have the bones identified. It was also found that the bones contained a large amount of arsenic;]

Ellie Baba wrote

Found in the hole with the Percheron (a breed of work horse from the Perche Valley in Northern France) was a large heart fashioned from a metal band and a number of other objects identifying the Architects. We had taken the bones of this large animal to a Veterinarian to have the bones identified. It was also found that the bones contained a large amount of arsenic; guess what number represents arsenic on the periodic table?

I don't know if you are a 'horse trader' but in the 'good old days' a rather nasty practice done by unscrupulous horse dealers was to give an old horse rather large doses of arsenic just before selling it.  The arsenic had a short-term effect of acting rather like a tonic, making the horse seem to act healthy and strong, but shortening its life dramatically.  Finding horse remains that turned out to have a large amount of arsenic in them would indicate to me that we have the results of an unscrupulous horse trader.  This is only one of many such tricks employed in the horse trade, some of which are still done (doping horses going to auction, races etc). 
Oroblanco
 

I'm going to interject here that the Spanish that you say is very specific is also very mispelled.

Seems like a terrible oversight from what you seem to be attributing to a divine annotation.

B

Ellie,

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the excavation and items you found.  While you have described them, "A picture is worth a thousand words".  Don't you agree?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

Ellie,

It would be interesting to see some pictures of the excavation and items you found.  While you have described them, "A picture is worth a thousand words".  Don't you agree?

Thanks in advance,

Joe

Shadow of the Sentinel, by Warren Getler & Bob Brewer
See photo on page 34. Story found in "Off to Arizona", Chapter 14, pg. 199.

See you at Rendezvous.

EB

A boxed in section of river turns;  hard to go any further once one finds it.  Once there, one will find a pasture, and the first signs of gold in the area;  a placer site deposited from the funnel in canyon Fresco.  The closest flat ground to hobble the animals near the mine is this pasture and it is North of the spring.  The forest of small green trees is no longer present due to the spring all but drying up since the building of Roosevelt Dam.  The spring once poured into the Salt thus flowing across the river and building a rich sandbar in a cubby section opposite the pasture.  Same legend of the lost gun site mine only in it they approached from the North East.  One might rope down into the pasture area if not willing to take the long way around  into the area.  The smelter and arrasta used to be at the North East end of the pasture, next to to the wall at waters edge.;  it was removed back in the 50's in an effort to further conceal the location.  The original discoverers of the site are now all passed away and they were never able to pinpoint the mines.  I picked up where they left off.  I found an old burro shoe just below mine #2 to the South West, in a sandy flat where the animals were hobbled there.  If you read all of Waltz's remembered comments, you will find that he was describing two different mines in the same area;  one that was a funnel and another that you had to drop down to from a bolder.  It is only possible for the setting December Sun to shine into one of them at any given time and it is not the funnel.  Mine number two is down river and was formed thousands of years ago at a time when the Salt was higher up on the mountain;  it is a sedimentary vein running for miles and formed from the water grinding away at what was once a huge outcrop sticking up out of the river.  This became the funnel which is now high above the river in these days.  The vein runs under sedimentary mountains formed over millennia, as other mountains washed down and buried the spill.

Hi Joe:
 Paperback reprint.............http://www.amazon.com/Killer-Mountains-Curt-Gentry/dp/0891740201

Regards:SH

I'm going to interject here that the Spanish that you say is very specific is also very misspelled.

Seems like a terrible oversight from what you seem to be attributing to a divine annotation.

B

Hello B,

The words were misspelled on purpose in order to form a word or phrase formed by reordering the letters of another word. For example; cobollo de Santa = coolest blonde. Its genius! They used Spanish words to produce English words.

EB

I guess we have a difference of opinion - you think its brilliant - I think its - not-so-much.

B

Hey Fork, Storm tells a story in his book Thunder God"s Gold, where a prospecter in the 1920"s squeezes through a rock crevice into a hidden valley.
The way he got out was useing a rope ladder attached to a rock wall on the inside.
I"m thinking from memory as I dont have the book in front of me that the location might be known as Garden Valley, a prehistoric region in the Supers.
Storm goes on to state this is a location of one of the Spanish lost mines that may predate the Peraltas but also a area they worked. Could this be the drop down rock area you are reffering to.

SH,

Thanks for the information.  I seldom get paperbacks, unless that's all that's available.  I was mistakenly thinking it was a cover from a hardback edition.   To be honest, I don't know that I ever heard there was a paperback reprint.  On the other hand, I must have run across it in my searches and just fanned it............Old age.

Thanks,

Joe

Hey Fork, Storm tells a story in his book Thunder God"s Gold, where a prospecter in the 1920"s squeezes through a rock crevice into a hidden valley.
The way he got out was useing a rope ladder attached to a rock wall on the inside.
I"m thinking from memory as I dont have the book in front of me that the location might be known as Garden Valley, a prehistoric region in the Supers.
Storm goes on to state this is a location of one of the Spanish lost mines that may predate the Peraltas but also a area they worked. Could this be the drop down rock area you are reffering to.

Ghost - Garden Valley is very large and open - easy hike to it from numerous directions and no need to drop down from anywhere.

[We had taken the bones of this large animal to a Veterinarian to have the bones identified. It was also found that the bones contained a large amount of arsenic;]

Ellie Baba wrote

Found in the hole with the Percheron (a breed of work horse from the Perche Valley in Northern France) was a large heart fashioned from a metal band and a number of other objects identifying the Architects. We had taken the bones of this large animal to a Veterinarian to have the bones identified. It was also found that the bones contained a large amount of arsenic; guess what number represents arsenic on the periodic table?

I don't know if you are a 'horse trader' but in the 'good old days' a rather nasty practice done by unscrupulous horse dealers was to give an old horse rather large doses of arsenic just before selling it.  The arsenic had a short-term effect of acting rather like a tonic, making the horse seem to act healthy and strong, but shortening its life dramatically.  Finding horse remains that turned out to have a large amount of arsenic in them would indicate to me that we have the results of an unscrupulous horse trader.  This is only one of many such tricks employed in the horse trade, some of which are still done (doping horses going to auction, races etc). 
Oroblanco
 

Hi Oroblanco,
Thanks for your comments as we all need to look at every angle while researching this material.
I am not a horse trader, but I am familiar with mining, geology and mineralogy.  Once the findings concerning the arsenic levels found in the Percheron’s bones were made known we had decided as a group that this horse was used in a nearby mining operation and had been drinking the contaminated water where the ore was either mined or processed. Three of our team members are some of the best horse authorities in these parts and one comment that we considered was the horse may have been poisoned on purpose before its burial. We were not there so we agreed on the mining theory as being the most relevant. The men that buried this animal and the other clues knew that someday that the horse would be exhumed because clues to one of the depositories would be found in this location. The Stone Maps had given us the exact heading and location to find the horse’s grave along with the other buried clues. See  “Shadow of the Sentinel” by Getler & Brewer, chapter 17, page 240 for more information.
Document from; epa/gov/arsenic/html
Welch, A.H., Westjohn, D.B., Helsel, D.R. and Wanty, R.B., 2000. Arsenic in ground water of the United States: Occurrence and geochemistry. Ground Water 38(4) 589-604.

Arsenic occurs naturally in soils, rocks, water, air, plants, and animals. Minerals that contain arsenic include arsenopyrite (FeAsS), realgar (AsS), orpiment (As2S3), and arsenolite (As2O3). Although elemental arsenic has several allotropic forms - gray, yellow, and black arsenic - only gray arsenic is ordinarily stable. Gray arsenic is a brittle, crystalline, semi-metallic solid that sublimes at 615C and 1 atmosphere. As much as 100,000 tons of arsenic is produced worldwide, with most of it is obtained as a by-product of the smelting of copper, lead, cobalt, and gold ores. The quantity of arsenic associated with lead and copper ores may range from 2-3%, whereas gold ores may contain up to 11% arsenic. Arsenic trioxide, As2O3, is the chief commercial compound. Elemental arsenic is produced by reducing arsenic trioxide with carbon.

One item of interest that I will mention is this; Our team of horse experts did recognize the arsenic poisoning due to the color of the bones (I believe a slight yellow tint) and this prompted us to send the bones to our friendly Vet for analysis.

Any observations or comments, whether they be positive or negative are welcomed from this or any other forums.
EB

  :coffee2:Well I have never been to the Supers ., what  Storm says is Garden Valley is a Prehistoric area with with many different types of terrain. He describes the valley as hidden from any kind of view and suken like a sink. About Storm, he started researching the Supers.and Waltz in the early thirties, he published a few books about both,in the 30"s and beyond. He did do extensive research by talking to old timers and family members both direct and through letter correspondence.. While all kinds of imformation can be embellished, I tend to give him the benifet of most doubts. I believe in Waltz,the Peraltas, & Ruth, were all real,and the maps and  ore they had were also. Storm relates a story of Waltz selling ore to a jewler/or assyer{dam wish I had my book with me} and the guy had a couple of rings made up for his children. As storm states and others the ORE was very UNIQUE and BEAUTIFUL,like none others had ever seen before. Others have found Rich Viens also ,like Wagner,who used to get off a stage coach somewhere outside of Goldfield, and have the stage driver pick him up 2 or 3 days latter,and he had a suitcase full of gold rocks. Storm also theorizes the Salt lake may have covered up some old mines. A Doctor who tended to some Indians,was taken by blindfold,and allowed to pick up as much ore as he could carry.Why all the conjecture about Waltz and the Peraltas on this forum all of a sudden ? Hey they were real just like I am.
Ruth wrote in Latin, I came, I looked,I found,located in the inside of his hat band..Ok I"m stretched,time for football.

Dear ghostdog;
You wrote:
Ruth wrote in Latin, I came, I looked,I found,located in the inside of his hat band..
Actually, what Dr. Ruth supposedly wrote was a note inside of his checkbook, explaining that he had located the LDM. At the end of the note he had supposedly penned:
Veni, vidi, vici
which, when translated into English is the first person perfect tense for:
I came, I saw, I conquered
It was reputedly first written by Julius Caesar in 47 B.C. The modern term for this phrase may be stated as:
Veni, vidi, visa
Which, when translated into English, may mean, "I came, I saw, I did a little shopping"
Your friend;
LAMAR

[A]

HOLA amigos,

Ellie Baba wrote, responding to Mrs Oro,

The words were misspelled on purpose in order to form a word or phrase formed by reordering the letters of another word. For example; cobollo de Santa = coolest blonde. Its genius! They used Spanish words to produce English words.

I realize your reply was directed to Mrs O, but your example left me puzzled.  First, why use Spanish words to produce English words?  I fail to see the reasoning for it.  Second, your example,

Cobollo de Santa

I presume you meant to write "Sante" as it is on the Peralta stones, but making the English words

Coolest Blonde

from this set of letters leaves you with a leftover 'A'.  What do you do with the leftover A?  Or is the phrase supposed to read 'A coolest blonde" or another arrangement?  I am mystified with this.

Ellie Baba also wrote

Thanks for your comments as we all need to look at every angle while researching this material.
I am not a horse trader, but I am familiar with mining, geology and mineralogy. <snip>

I did not mean to be a 'wet blanket' but we treasure hunters have a tendency to see what we wish to see, often assuming some POSSIBLE clue is a definite clue, when it can be interpreted in other ways.  As you know that arsenic occurs in water sources, you must also know that it is common even where there are no mines of any kind nearby - arsenic easily gets into the water supply where acidic soils and/or rains cause it to dissolve into it.  Anyway just my opinion, but I would not put too much into the finding of arsenic in the horse remains.  Draft horses were (and are) used for many other tasks besides working in mines, especially in farming, ranching, quarrying and logging.

Cactusjumper wrote

I seldom get paperbacks, unless that's all that's available.

I realize that you collect books, but for me, it is what is in the book that is of interest.  I doubt that our own little collection of books would impress you, as many of them were purchased used and a fair share of paperbacks which are generally less expensive.   I also do not judge the work of an author in one book by what he or she wrote in another, for many authors have written both non-fiction and pure fiction, with no "bleed" of fiction into their non-fiction.  I do not understand your denigration of the author mentioned earlier, due to his having done other books which have no bearing on our subject matter.  I guess we disagree on this point when considering resource material.
Lamar wrote

Dear ghostdog;
You wrote:
Ruth wrote in Latin, I came, I looked,I found,located in the inside of his hat band..
Actually, what Dr. Ruth supposedly wrote was a note inside of his checkbook, explaining that he had located the LDM.

Your statement is what many Dutch hunters interpret from Ruth's cryptic message,  but as I am sure you would point out, this can be interpreted in other ways, such as having "conquered" the desert, having found a particular marker site, or even something much more personal.  Just my opinion but I think we assume too much to conclude that Ruth found the Lost Dutchman, based on that brief Latin passage.

Lamar also wrote

The modern term for this phrase may be stated as:
Veni, vidi, visa
Which, when translated into English, may mean, "I came, I saw, I did a little shopping"

  LOL You continue to surprise me with your excellent sense of humor amigo!  Good one! 
Oroblanco

[A]

HOLA amigos,

Ellie Baba wrote, responding to Mrs Oro,

The words were misspelled on purpose in order to form a word or phrase formed by reordering the letters of another word. For example; cobollo de Santa = coolest blonde. Its genius! They used Spanish words to produce English words.

I realize your reply was directed to Mrs O, but your example left me puzzled.  First, why use Spanish words to produce English words?  I fail to see the reasoning for it.  Second, your example,

Cobollo de Santa

I presume you meant to write "Sante" as it is on the Peralta stones, but making the English words

Coolest Blonde

from this set of letters leaves you with a leftover 'A'.  What do you do with the leftover A?  Or is the phrase supposed to read 'A coolest blonde" or another arrangement?  I am mystified with this.

Ellie Baba also wrote

Thanks for your comments as we all need to look at every angle while researching this material.
I am not a horse trader, but I am familiar with mining, geology and mineralogy. <snip>

I did not mean to be a 'wet blanket' but we treasure hunters have a tendency to see what we wish to see, often assuming some POSSIBLE clue is a definite clue, when it can be interpreted in other ways.  As you know that arsenic occurs in water sources, you must also know that it is common even where there are no mines of any kind nearby - arsenic easily gets into the water supply where acidic soils and/or rains cause it to dissolve into it.  Anyway just my opinion, but I would not put too much into the finding of arsenic in the horse remains.  Draft horses were (and are) used for many other tasks besides working in mines, especially in farming, ranching, quarrying and logging.

Arsenic is highly concentrated in gold ores containing sulfides.

Hi Oroblanco,
A little more detail in my explanation will shed some light on the matter. One of the main issues people have a problem with concerning the Stone Maps is the misspelling of the Spanish words found on the tablets. They believe the creators of these tablets to be a bunch of uneducated buffoons, not the case. The reason that they are misspelled is due to the fact that an anagram can only be solved with the correct letters that are used in the original code. The fact remains that Santa is spelled exactly as depicted on the Horse Map, however you are correct it should translate to “a coolest blonde”. If the words in Spanish had been properly spelled the anagram (in English) would have been misinterpreted. The correction that you proposed to me as a result of my example did not make any sense to you. You did figure it out and now it makes perfect sense. If cobollo was spelled correctly as caballo we would never interpret the phrase to “a coolest blonde”, therefore the word must be spelled as cobollo. By the way you are not a wet blanket and I thank you for allowing me to help you understand the reasoning behind the Spanish to English concept. The Spanish words are misspelled for a really good reason. When the time comes I will be able to share the Spanish/English interpretations regarding all of the stone tablets. These Architects were no dummies, for if ever a conspiracy theory existed we will find them on the top of the heap. We must pay attention to the details, for the truth is right in front of us.
EB

Roy,

"I realize that you collect books, but for me, it is what is in the book that is of interest.  I doubt that our own little collection of books would impress you, as many of them were purchased used and a fair share of paperbacks which are generally less expensive.   I also do not judge the work of an author in one book by what he or she wrote in another, for many authors have written both non-fiction and pure fiction, with no "bleed" of fiction into their non-fiction.  I do not understand your denigration of the author mentioned earlier, due to his having done other books which have no bearing on our subject matter.  I guess we disagree on this point when considering resource material."

On the contrary, I have many paperbacks.  From the collecting aspect, I prefer hardbacks.....signed, if I can get them.  If the paperbacks are all that are available, I will purchase them.......for the content.  I have a number of the same books in both formats.  I consider my "library" quite small, but of pretty good quality.  I doubt you would be overly impressed.

I posted a copy of the description from a commercial site that was selling Hudnall's book.  At B's use of it for a source, I purchased the book.  I don't think I denigrated the author but tried to express that with that type of description, it was not the kind of book that I would normally gravitate to.......without someone's recommendation.  With B and yourself using it for a source, I consider that a recommendation.

Not having read the book, it was an unqualified opinion based on what the book was being marketed as.  It will arrive this Wednesday, and once I have read it, I may have a different opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Lamar,Oro and RDT,
Lamar-Thank you for righting my wordage me you are 100% correcto.I was actually thinking checkbook when I wrote hat band,and I knew I screwed up the Latin phrase. Did you know that when the sheriff"s posse found Ruths body it was decapitated and made to look like a animal  scattered the bones. A very unusual type of murder even for the Supers..Someone was sending a message.
Oro-Ruth had a original Perlta map and I believe he located certain monuments on the map matching the landscape that would lead him to a Peralta mine. Ruth was a engineer for the US Govt. in Washington,and had located some lost treasure before acquireing the Peralta map. He was experienced, but secretaive and paranoid which I believe led to his demise.
He should have never went into the Supers without a partner.
RTD-Interesting photos of mine markers,gives me something more to look for if I ever get into the mountains again.
eldunno for now

[definite clue]

.... we treasure hunters have a tendency to see what we wish to see, often assuming some POSSIBLE clue is a definite clue, when it can be interpreted in other ways.  .....

No truer words were ever spoken.  Much information is hidden in plain sight, assumed to represent something else or ignored altogether.  For the aficionados of the sport of gathering LDM 'documented evidence', consider persher codes and especially Baconian cyphers as related to early 'source material'.  The creators of these various treasure legends were superb observers and manipulators of human behavior, making the recent 'WMD' scam seem like child's play.  In this type of game, things are seldom as they seem (and of couse, why would they?).

Springf,and others I am not knocking anyones theory about codes or map designations,monuments etc, just stateing my own. Its possible those who worked the Supers that predate the PERALTAS being there used secret codes.
Its my belief a lot of the markers the Peraltas used have been defaced or done away with altogether, by other seekers over the years. I"m sure someone on this forum knows a lot more than been put out. The L.D.M.could be, being worked right now ,my guess. ..adios

LAMAR,

I have yet to see a reply from you regarding my response to your derogatory post concerning Father Kino's boat building project in Caborca. Please don't just ignore this like you seem to do every time evidence proves you wrong. I would like to know your opinion.

Dear Gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.


My friend, are you REALLY unaware that Caborca happens to be situated in a DESERT? And being a desert, to the very best of my knowledge, there are no large TREES, as trees require a substantial amount of rainfall annually in order to grow, prosper and become TIMBER, which was of course the principle building material in the construction of ships during that era. What were they going to build this ship out of, adobe perhaps?

It would perhaps been a bit more plausible if the author chose to accuse Fr. Kino of comissioning a ship to be built further south along the Pacific shore where there actually exists enough tree growth to support the building and outfitting of a ship.

I've been to Caborca and I've seen the dust devils rising a couple of hundred feet above the ground. As far as I am aware, the area surrounding Caborca has been this way since at least since the very first colonists arrived and it's only been in very modern times that irrigation has allowed for the agriculturists to produce substainable crops.
Your friend;
LAMAR

The author you choose to denigrate is the eminent Jesuit Father Ernest J. Burrus SJ (I know the double references of Jesuit and SJ are overkill, but I am making a point).

WOW! I am amazed that there is something about Jesuit History that you are TOTALLY Unaware of! I once again reference Father Ernest Burrus SJ's excellent work "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" 1971

First Quote /page# 22-23, (nothing to do with Caborca, but regarding Jesuit Shipping):

Afte conferring with Atondo, Kino retraced his steps to Guadalajara and in early June he visited Rosario near the harbor of Mazatlan. He was soon in the saddle again; this time in order to ride back to Nio for the blessing of the three new ships: the Almiranta (a frigate with the high-sounding name of San Jose Y San Francisco Javier), the Capitana (another frigate, named La Concepcion), and the Balandra (a sloop).

Let's see, maybe Lamar can tell us who may have been referenced by using the name SAN FRANCISCO JAVIER?? HMMMMMMM provacative, I must say!

Next we go to pages 67-71 (specifically regarding KINO'S BOAT at CABORCA:

pg#67

The Missionary himself was not with Manje at the time the harbor was found (Santa Sabina), as he had remained in CABORCA to work on the boat.

pg# 68

Kino had returned from the first expedition on the eve of Ash Wednesday, as we have seen, and attended to his charges at Dolores and dependent missions until Tuesday, March 16, of that same yearof 1694, when he set out a second time with Manje. Kino's main purpose was to build a boat in sections, and haul them overland by oxen to the Gulf of California in preparation for an exploratory sea voyage.

I will only include some relevant quotes, as there are over twenty pages in this book alone dealing with Kino's Boat at Caborca. In case you thought it was just some little dinghy, this last quote will give an idea of the planned size of Kino's Boat pages 184-185:

The next day, March 21, was the Fourth of Laetare Sunday in Lent, but Kino was so anxious to get started on his boat, that he selected a huge Cottonwood. Inasmuch  as he wanted to obtain the largest plank possible from the tree, he had his crew dig down deep along the roots. They then tried to topple down the giant. Despite all the pulling and pushing, the tree refused to budge. Agile Manje climbed to the top branches, fastened the rope thrown to him; and, before he could descend, the impatient crew gave the rope a mighty tug. Down came the giant Cottonwood with Manje dangling helplessly in its' top branches. It landed with a mighty crash, the smaller branches flying into a thousand pieces. The crew got out of the way in time~~...............~~Manje was a scrupulous in measuring timber as he was in counting natives: "The trunk was cut thirty-eight feet long in order to secure a clean keel from stern to prow, not counting the bows and stern posts, which would be eighteen cubits". This would make the boat about sixty feet long.

So, once again, before making a statement that attempts to ridicule me, you might want to make an attempt at researching for yourself. It seems as though your knowledge of Caborca is as thin as your knowledge of Father Kino's Boat.

Your post upset me somewhat, because we usually get along very cordially (even when we completely disagree). I'm not used to you being so flippant. It seems that you are not even the same person that I usually debate with. 

Best-Mike

Springf,and others I am not knocking anyones theory about codes or map designations,monuments etc, just stateing my own. Its possible those who worked the Supers that predate the PERALTAS being there used secret codes.
Its my belief a lot of the markers the Peraltas used have been defaced or done away with altogether, by other seekers over the years. I"m sure someone on this forum knows a lot more than been put out. The L.D.M.could be, being worked right now ,my guess. ..adios

Correct, or it could have been worked out many years ago for that matter.  Assuming there is still a sizeable quantity of "bonanza" gold ore in the Superstitions somewhere, I'm fairly convinced 99.999999% of us will never know about it if it's found.

Ghost - I noticed that you've mentioned Barry Storm's book a number of times in your discussions.  Keep in mind that while Storm holds a distinct history within the LDM community, "Thunder God's Gold" seems (in my opinion) to be at least as much an "adventure story" as anything else.  If you find yourself truly fascinated by the Superstitions as well as the LDM lore, there are a number of REALLY GOOD books out there that provide significantly more historical background on the legends than Storm's book.  Not trying to denigrate it at all, but I look at books like "Thunder God's Gold" and "Killer Mountains" as appetizers - a way to whet ones appetite for the main course so to speak.  

There are MANY books (some even good ones ) out there on the LDM, but personally I would recommend the following 4 to anyone truly interested in learning more - in no particular order:

"The Golden Dream" by Thomas Glover

"The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz" by Helen Corbin

"The Hikers Guide to the Superstition Wilderness - with History and Legends of Arizona's Lost Dutchman Gold Mine" by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart

"The Lost Dutchman Mine" by Sims Ely

If you start your library with these 4 books, you'll be laying a very firm foundation going forward.

Ghostdog,

Around 35....or so, years ago, we went into West Boulder with the intention of climbing the ridge that separates it from East Boulder, and Little Boulder on the north end of the ridge.  I had figured out exactly where the Stone Map Trail was, and wanted to find any monuments denoted by the dots/holes in the maps.

In particular, I believed there would be two monuments on top of the ridge where the trail turns to the north.
We found the monuments, the story has been told here before, and I didn't go back there until around 2000.
Instead I concentrated on the end of the trail in Little Boulder Canyon.

I have flown over that ridge in a chopper......close.  No sign of the six foot tall, eighteen inch square monuments.  We have searched the top of that ridge a few times since, and still nothing.  I have to assume someone found and destroyed the monuments.

How that relates to Ruth is supposition on my part.  I believe he left Quarter Circle  U and they took the trail to Freemont Pass.  At that point they worked their way northwest and up to the top of the ridge.  In doing that they would have passed a sealed mine, at least it was sealed in 2004, to their left.  I assume there were other monuments in the area.

Ruth could have easily made his way back to that mine, and was possibly murdered there.  On the other hand, it could have all happened just as the books have said.

Take care,

Joe

HOLA amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

I consider my "library" quite small, but of pretty good quality.  I doubt you would be overly impressed.

Hmm you seem to forget that you have already mentioned some of the books among your library, and I was ALREADY impressed!  Quantity does not equate with quality where books are concerned after all, right?  I have bought whole boxes full of books which were really about worthless except that one in the box happened to be a good one, which left me quite a few books to get rid of which were useless and/or of no interest to anyone in our family.  I may not be overly SURPRISED at your library, but I know that I was quite impressed at some of the volumes you mentioned in previous threads.  I hope to visit you sometime, and the chance of a visit to your library is a very large cherry on top! 

Ghostdog wrote

Oro-Ruth had a original Perlta map and I believe he located certain monuments on the map matching the landscape that would lead him to a Peralta mine. Ruth was a engineer for the US Govt. in Washington,and had located some lost treasure before acquireing the Peralta map. He was experienced, but secretaive and paranoid which I believe led to his demise.
He should have never went into the Supers without a partner.
RTD-Interesting photos of mine markers,gives me something more to look for if I ever get into the mountains again.

I am not sure I agree with your statement entirely, for Ruth certainly talked freely of his quest and mentioned his possession of maps to a group of prospectors (and/or "drifters") none of whom were known to Ruth, present at the Quarter Circle U ranch, which may well have led to his demise.  Tex Barkley (the ranch owner) practically begged Ruth to please wait for him to return, so that Tex could pack him in to the mountains as he had to leave for business, but Ruth could not wait and hired two strangers (Purnell and Keenan) to do his packing.  If he was secretive, he was certainly NOT secretive enough!   

I would point out here too - that Ruth did not claim that the mine he was hunting was the Lost Dutchman until some of the prospectors at Barkley's ranch told him that must be what he is after.  He went along with what they said, but before this never made that connection. 
Oroblanco

Roy,

"I hope to visit you sometime, and the chance of a visit to your library is a very large cherry on top!"

When the snow lasts just a little too long, you and Beth are more than welcome to pay us a visit.  There is a nice recliner in my office and you can read anything that strikes your fancy.  If that gets a little too close/quiet for you, there are four recliners in the front room.

Take care,

Joe

[Quiet?]

<Begin WHINE>
Quiet?    What is that?  (typed as yet another  train thunders into Edgemont rail yard, horns blaring, brakes screeching and railcars crashing together) I do seem to remember it once, but the memory of silence  has largely faded since coming here! 
</End WHINE>
Roy

PS - Four recliners?  By God, Joe I am becoming more and more convinced that you DO know how to live right! 

ORO???  sniff  and here I always thought that you and Beth were renovating a lonely line cabin up in the Mt's.

As for those make up trains, sigh.  during the  depression we lived with my grandfather in Tracy, Calif.   His cabinet shop was right next to the RR make up yard  sigh.

I can still hear them making up trains all night long. the engine taking up the slack, forward and backwards, was NOISY,  each car would independently go bang, clank all of the way down the line for perhaps 80 cars.

I FEEL FOR YOU !

Don Jose de La Mancha  (where the only sound is the air conditioner)

Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'

[Sorry for not keeping you posted]

Don Jose', Dueno de Real y Minas de Tayopa wrote

ORO??? sniff and here I always thought that you and Beth were renovating a lonely line cabin up in the Mt's.

As for those make up trains, sigh. during the depression we lived with my grandfather in Tracy, Calif. His cabinet shop was right next to the RR make up yard sigh.

I can still hear them making up trains all night long. the engine taking up the slack, forward and backwards, was NOISY, each car would independently go bang, clank all of the way down the line for perhaps 80 cars.

I FEEL FOR YOU !

Don Jose de La Mancha (where the only sound is the air conditioner)

HOLA amigo and gracias for the empathy - still trying to get used to the constant racket here, but slowly going deaf so it will work out one way or the other!  (heh heh)  Sorry for not keeping you posted with our peripatetic wanderings too.  Yes we were building a cabin in the hills in SE Arizona, <about six miles as the crow flies from the old Commonwealth mine near Pearce> right up until developers bought up all the land on all four sides of ours (we had bought an old homestead with no buildings remaining, surrounded by two large cattle ranches) and the utility poles and new homes started springing up at an amazing rate.  We moved to SW S Dakota, actually to a piece of land we owned some years ago with the idea we could put up a small home here while advertising the AZ land for sale, then be able to sell this as well and have more for the war chest to buy the place they cannot crowd in on.  As usual everything is taking far longer than planned or hoped.  I still hope to return to AZ but would "settle" for a secluded place even here in the land of cold.  I don't hate people, just hate living so danged CLOSE to them. 

Line cabins - hoo boy what sheer comfort amigo, nothing quite like living "close to nature" especially when that Wyoming wind decides to let you have it.  Even the leaky, drafty, poorly insulated camper is considerably more comfortable! 

You mentioned an air conditioner - such things <like our amigo Joe's mention of recliners> seem like it must be a far more comfortable life, or at least life-style.  Having had no real "roof" over our heads for over four years, at our age it seems to be getting harder and harder to "tough it out" even for this relatively short period.  Beth and I hardly ever do things the way most folks do though, so it is our own doing - please ignore my continual whining and griping, for no one forced us into this situation.  If things work out, we will be getting that home in the 'rub al khali' of our southwest, without going into debt.

My sincere apologies to our readers for the very far off-topic drift there, just been a rather bad week. 
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Line cabins - hoo boy what sheer comfort amigo, nothing quite like living "close to nature" especially when that Wyoming wind decides to let you have it.  Even the leaky, drafty, poorly insulated camper is considerably more comfortable!

Boy do you have that right!
That was one of the things that made me start my own business.
I got awfuly tired of the weather coming in doors.

[]I got awfuly tired of the weather coming in doors.]

Old Dog wrote
[quote]I got awfuly tired of the weather coming in doors.
[/quote[

ROFL  Oh my Thom now I KNOW you are "old school" and that you know exactly what a line cabin is!  Thanks for that one! 
Roy

Oro-I think your right, thas how I read it, sometimes when I"m tired I dont think I just write.
Cubfan and Catus,thanks for your imputs, I will buy some other books to read to get different insights.adios,for now

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'


Honestly I do not wish to get drawn into a senseless and essentially worthless, argument. Maybe the Jesuits were building a boat and maybe they weren't, however it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand and I neither have the time nor the desire to put forth the research effort to confirm or deny the allegations at this time. Also, I typically do not like to answer any questions until I am reasonably sure that I have all of the facts in hand. At this time I am in the middle of a fairly large project, therefore the Jesuit fleet question will have to remain on the back burner until further notice. Thank you for all consideration, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

There is no maybe, in this case.  The details of the building of the boat/ship are well documented.  There are times when it is best to admit your mistake and move on to something else.  I know that well, because I make more than my share of mistakes.

On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine.  It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located.  I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.

I am always impressed with your knowledge, but we all make mistakes.......more as we get older.

Take care,

Joe

[you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine.]

Cactusjumper wrote to our friend Lamar,

On that note, you are wrong about placers always showing up below a mine. It depends on how the mine breaches the surface, and exactly where and how it is located. I believe the picture I posted shows just such a situation.

In support of this statement, here is an extract, quote

The epithermal veins <in AZ gold deposits> have formed no placers of economic importance.

<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp15>
and

It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona.  The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.
When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it."

<Ibid, pp 244>

So Lamar my friend does this help to sway your view, as to lode gold deposits always having placers?  There are other sources as well to support our contention that gold lode deposits do NOT always have a placer associated, just as not all placers can be traced to source lodes.
 
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed.  May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion?  Thank you in advance, 
Oroblanco
 

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
Lamar...
We are all still waiting for your inspired responses to the questions you think you have quietly evaded.
your silence speaks VOLUMES. 'My Friend'


Honestly I do not wish to get drawn into a senseless and essentially worthless, argument. Maybe the Jesuits were building a boat and maybe they weren't, however it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand and I neither have the time nor the desire to put forth the research effort to confirm or deny the allegations at this time. Also, I typically do not like to answer any questions until I am reasonably sure that I have all of the facts in hand. At this time I am in the middle of a fairly large project, therefore the Jesuit fleet question will have to remain on the back burner until further notice. Thank you for all consideration, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to take the time and try to ridicule me regarding two subjects about which you knew nothing?

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to try and defame Father Ernest Burrus SJ; one of the most renowned Jesuit Historians of the Order in the New World?

What makes it senseless and worthless? Could it be the fact that you (yet again) stuck your foot in your mouth, and for whatever reason (as usual) choose to ignore it rather than admitting weakness? As many times as we have gone round and round, have you EVER known me to post information (referenced information) that was not accurate? I know I have posted things that I can't give conclusive proof for (personal confidences, etc), but when I do that I state openly and freely what I can and cannot publicly post.

Let's see.....what comes next? Could it be feigning hurt feelings, so you can once again try to redirect the subject? How many times have you done that? I mean really! We have gotten along so well in the past, even though we passionately disagreed about a subject. The main reason I keep pushing this is because your attempted offhand slight kind of took me by surprise.

Patiently waiting-Mike

Dear Gollum;
Please sit tight and keep holding onto what you got, my friend. I am in the middle of something else at the moment, and trust me, I have not forgotten about your queries. And so, allow me to finish what I am doing and thus I will be able to return to the discussion of boats, ownerships, etc. Thank you for your patience.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[Please disregard the question, it was pointless and useless as I already have my answer.]

Oroblanco posted a question for Lamar,

Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,

And Lamar replied

                                                                                                         

Please disregard the question, it was pointless and useless as I already have my answer. 
Oroblanco
 

Dear Gollum;
Please sit tight and keep holding onto what you got, my friend. I am in the middle of something else at the moment, and trust me, I have not forgotten about your queries. And so, allow me to finish what I am doing and thus I will be able to return to the discussion of boats, ownerships, etc. Thank you for your patience.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

Whats the matter? Waiting on an email from the Brothers? HAHAHA All you have to do is check out the book I quoted from:

"Kino and Manje: Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" by Father Ernest J Burrus SJ.

His book is a translated compilation of the diarios of Kino, Manje, Atondo, Salvatierra, and a few more. My quotes are exact and specific, omitting only unimportant information.

In case you think that the publisher may be questionable:

"Rome: Jesuit Historical Institute. 1971. 793pp. "

Best-Mike

re:boat , Groupo,I would like to add just a little about the boat building thread as I have the time, Kino wanted to build  a bark at Caborca, carry it in pieces with oxen and mules and put it together on the shores of the Gulf of Calif, to further explore the Gulf. The trunk of a Cottonwood tree was cut 38 feet long for the keel from stern to prow not counting the bows and the stern posts which would be 18 cubits. Manje was to be his partner.  For what ever reason a Father Munoz put a stop to the boat building project..from my end notes

Dear oroblaco;
You stated:
So Lamar my friend does this help to sway your view, as to lode gold deposits always having placers?  There are other sources as well to support our contention that gold lode deposits do NOT always have a placer associated, just as not all placers can be traced to source lodes.

If you will read my answer carefully on the subject, you will realize that sometimes lode deposits may not have associated placers and there exists only 3 possibilities for this cause.

1) The lode deposit which struck the surface is either very old or is situated in a zone where there exists a high level or errosion, or both. If the lode strike is ancient, then the placers may have been swept far away from the lode strike. Some examples of this are glacial movements and areas of high rainfall.
2)The lode deposit is very young and hasn't had time to shed it's superficial minerals. This can also occur in areas which suffer from high erroison. A good example of this type of deposit would be one which was uncovered after a recent earthquake or plate shift.
3) Prospectors had already located and recovered the placers. This is always a real possibility and which the lode searcher should be aware of.

Epithermal is the contraction of two Greek words, EPI meaning UPPER an THERMAL meaning HOT. THerefore the two words together stand for UPPER HOT, which adaquately describes what an epithermal deposit is, my friend. Epithermal gold deposits are formed at shallow depths of within 2 miles of the surface in the temperature range of 50C to 200C, and always in the periphery of volcanic activity.

The epithermal deposits in Arizona and Nevada were formed during the Phanerozoic era, which happens to be the era we are currently in, therefore one may assume these deposits to be youthful, therefore the existence of substantial amounts of placer deposits would be minimal at best.

Now, perhaps some wish to believe that gold sometimes falls from the sky and just appears on the surface of the Earth without any rhyme or reason however I think differently on the subject.

To sum all of this up succulently, if a lode strike has reached the surface of the Earth (it's not known as a strike if it hasn't by the way) for any extended period of time, then there will be associated placer deposits, however the placers are subject to movement, sometimes minor and sometimes major. I do hope this clarifies my statement to the clarity of fine glass, as I am growing weary of discussing basic geology over and over.

And you also queried:
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,


All I can say is that you would need to be able to present some very good physical evidence in order for my opinion to be swayed.
Your friend;
LAMAR


 
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed.  May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion?  Thank you in advance,  
Oroblanco[/color]

Dear Gollum;
You wrote:
It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to take the time and try to ridicule me regarding two subjects about which you knew nothing?

I was not attempting to ridicule you, my friend, merely rein in some of your unbridled enthusiasms. As we are all aware, at times you tend to paint the Jesuits in dark colors, which as you may have learned by now, is totally unacceptable. If you make an honest effort to redeem yourself in the future then I shall overlook your faux pas thus far, my friend.

It was sensible and worthwhile enough for you to try and defame Father Ernest Burrus SJ; one of the most renowned Jesuit Historians of the Order in the New World?

Even though Fr. Burrus SI, was a Roman Catholic priest, as far as I am aware he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are and his works are subjected to misinterpretations and erronous conclusions due to the lack of materials. This does not mean that a person is defaming another, merely that one is asking to be allowed ample time to study the relevant facts of the issue at hand, my friend. After all, the heretic Gallileo was not accquitted in a day. Again, these things take time and in light of this, patience really is a virtue.
Your friend;
LAMAR

good afternoon Lamar mi buddy --->   join me? 
One thing that puzzles me is that you posted -->

" he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 By this am I to assume that the Pope is not human, immortal, and is fallible?
***************************************************************

Speaking of the Pope, what is your opinion of the 'Papal Indulgences'?


As for all veins forming placers, obviously a very general statement.  What happens when a huge rockslide happens this winter that exposes a
here-to-fore hidden vein of Hi grade Gold?  For many centuries there will be NO appreciable placer formed.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
You enquired:
good afternoon Lamar mi buddy --->    join me? 
One thing that puzzles me is that you posted -->

" he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 By this am I to assume that the Pope is not human, immortal, and is fallible?
***************************************************************

Speaking of the Pope, what is your opinion of the 'Papal Indulgences'?


As for all veins forming placers, obviously a very general statement.  What happens when a huge rockslide happens this winter that exposes a
here-to-fore hidden vein of Hi grade Gold?  For many centuries there will be NO appreciable placer formed.

Don Jose de La Mancha
It all harkens back to the age-old discussion of whether the Pope is infallible or not, however this is most decidedly not the forum to be discussing this particular issue, my friend. Most conservative Catholics take the position that the Pope is in fact Jesus' Vicar on Earth and therefore is infallible in word and deed and that's about as far as I am willing to go with that point. This particular debate has been used by Protestant Christians as a point of contention in their spread of anti-Catholicism for centuries and it's a very old and worn out argument and one which I refuse to become a party to.

As far as Papal indulgences are concerned, once again I can only speak from my own point of view on the subject. I am not sure of your own knowledge of indulgences and how indulgences are viewed by the Roman Catholic church. Many people seem to think that an indulgence forgives a person of sin, however this is far from the truth. The sin itself can only be absolved through the rite of Confession to a Roman Catholic priest, however the temporal punishment for that sin remains and this is where the partial, or full indulgence comes into the picture.

Once again, may people are confused about indulgences and they seem to think that only certain indulgences are Papal, whereas in truth ALL indulgences are Papal. There exists both partial and plenary, or full, indulgences. Granting indulgences came under fire from Martin Luther during the Protestant Reformation, mostly due to alledged abuses and a general misunderstanding of indulgences. These issues have long since been resolved, however in truth most modern Roman Catholics do not have firm grasp of indulgences, their history and the purpose which they serve. As a traditional Roman Catholic I firmly and fully believe in indulgences and the salvation which they promise. Once more, indulgences were used as a topic in order to spread anti-Catholic sentiments by early Protestant Christians and that's about all I am willing to state on that subject, my friend.

As far as a storm uncovering a vein of ore, yes there will be no appreciable associated placer deposits, not only for centuries but most likely for several millenia. We must always bear in mind that our Earth uses a clock which is much older and slower than our own and a few hundred years in less than an eyeblink when one considers the age of our Earth is 4.5 BILLION years old.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar my friend and future coffee drinking buddy, I had no intentions to get  into a involved discussion on religion.  I was merely referring  to your remark which was very odd, inferring that a simple human vote could renderhim above human.   -->

he was never elected to the Papacy, therefore his works are neither infallible nor are they immortal. In other words, he was a human just as we all are"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
as for the new vein exposure,  i aologize, I missed your previous remark on that in yesterdays post.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Papal indulgences, I still have mixed emotions and thoughts  there.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[Lamar is incorrect in his statements,]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

To sum all of this up succulently, if a lode strike has reached the surface of the Earth (it's not known as a strike if it hasn't by the way) for any extended period of time, then there will be associated placer deposits, however the placers are subject to movement, sometimes minor and sometimes major. I do hope this clarifies my statement to the clarity of fine glass, as I am growing weary of discussing basic geology over and over.

I have addressed this subject in another thread, and I fully comprehend the opinion of Lamar that all gold lodes have placers, however for the benefit of our readers who may be reading our discussions but not actively posting,  Lamar is incorrect in his statements, for not all gold lodes have placers associated with them.  It depends on the environment the lode exists in.  Even an exposed vein or bed, if not exposed to weathering forces, or if the topography prevents any movement of any eroded materials, the lode will not produce a placer.  A Blind Lead* is a good example of a gold vein which will not (likely) produce any placer.  To anyone interested in the subject, and I presume if you are prospecting you are definitely interested, read some geology books for more information.  Don't take my word for it.  Here are the published words of professional geologists, as posted above

It is also true that some valuable gold lodes do not yield much or any, placer gold, and this statement may apply to all the lodes in an entire district, such as the Oatman district in Arizona.  The absence of placer gold should not, then deter a prospector if other conditions appear not unfavorable and, especially, if gold has been found in the district.

When no placer gold is found in a district, it is necessary to search for a lode or indications of the existence of a lode without the guidance of placer gold particles that have been shed from it."

<Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining, Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, The Arizona Bureau of Mines Bulletin 137, 1934, revised 1967, amended 1974, The University of Arizona, Tucson AZ, pp 244>

*A Blind Lead is a gold vein which has not become exposed to the surface, often being close to another gold vein to which it is not closely related.  A good book to serve as a reference of mining, prospecting and geological terms is Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, and Related Terms By American Geological Institute http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?ind...linkCode=qs&keywords=3540012710*

***Anyone interested in discussing the geology of ore deposits, both lode and placer, I would suggest starting a new thread and post an invitation or send a PM - I would be happy to join in.  I am not a geologist but have over three decades experience in prospecting and mineral exploration, and am still learning this very interesting and potentially profitable science.  ***

Lamar also wrote

And you also queried:
<Oroblanco asked>
Lamar you stated that it is your firm belief that the Lost Dutchman gold mine never existed. May I ask what it would take, to sway your opinion? Thank you in advance,


All I can say is that you would need to be able to present some very good physical evidence in order for my opinion to be swayed.

I am a little surprised  that you went to the trouble to answer my earlier question, as I had concluded there was obviously no possible evidence which could sway your opinion which was why you did not bother to post such an obvious reason.  Thank you for your reply,   As you have already shown strong doubts as to anything I <and several other members here with far more experience than me> might say, and the existing <known> evidence must not be enough for your conclusions to be re-examined, and I do not have the Lost Dutchman mine in my possession, I won't bore you further with more attempts to get you to change your mind. 

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco
 

Lamar,

I will only ask one question regarding two people on the subject of Papal Infallibility:

Do you find absolutely no fault with Pope Pius XII for providing escaping Nazi War Criminals easy passage to South America? Or maybe his Bishop Montini (later to become Pope Paul VI), who directly aided Father Dragunovic (Franciscans) in extricating the Comandants of the Concenrtation Camps of Sobibor, Treblinka, and Drancy?

How much stolen war loot wound up in the Vatican's Coffers after the war? Quite a bit. It is currently the subject of a major warcrimes lawsuit (2009).

Back to the subject:

As far as proof of LDM existence, there is ample evidence of it. You just need to read a couple of the well researched and annotated books on the subject. 

You stated:

If you make an honest effort to redeem yourself in the future then I shall overlook your faux pas thus far, my friend.

Okay okay okay.............Bless me Father for I have sinned. It has been 46 years since my last confession......................


How many Hail Mary's do I owe Faddah?

Best-Mike

Dear Gollum;
I firmly believe that the issue of the Pope's infallibility is a subject which we should not be discussing at any great length on this forum, lest the mods involve themselves in this thread. My personal beliefs on the Roman Catholic Church and her doctrine's are in fact PERSONAL and in light of this, I feel that my particular point of view may open a can of worms among other forum members whom hold beliefs other than my own.

Also, what the Roman Catholic Church may have, or may not have done immediately prior to, during, or after WWII, is a subject for historians and scholoars to discuss and debate at length my friend. I do personally feel that in WWII there were many guilty parties as well as many innocents and it's up to our Lord to decide the innocence or guilt of those so involved. I do know that, according to surving documentation,  a great many Roman Catholics perished at the hands of the belligerents and most of those strictly for their personal religious beliefs and the actions which they based their beliefs upon, yet we do not read of the Church attempting to extract retribution through the various national and international courts.

I do know of many Jewish people whom were aided by their Christian brethren, most notably the Roman Catholic nuns and monks of Europe. At the risk of their lives, these nuns and monks aided and abetted countless Jews and others whom were fleeing persecution at the hands of the Axis regimes, yet those are not the subject of debates. A great many Italian citizens also aided the Jewish population of Italy and Sicily and when caught, were remorselessly executed by the Nazis or Italian facsicists and yet these poor martyrs have become a mere historical footnote.

I also feel that WWII was a very personal war in that there existed good and bad on all sides of the conflict, therefore it is impossible to point a finger at any particular group and declare innocence or guilt based solely upon overall deeds and misdeeds.

If one may recall the ENTIRE Nazi era, one might soon understand that while the Jewish populations were the most affected, they weren't the ONLY group who were singled out and persecuted by the Nazi regime. I should now like to insert a quote from the source:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html

The Vatican, seeking accurate information, found helpers in unusual quarters. A large and unrecognised army of witnesses passed along secret reports and documents. This ad hoc Catholic intelligence grapevine had, as one of its leaders, Dr. Joseph Mueller, an anti-Nazi Munich lawyer known for his coolness and dependability. As an officer in the Abwehr (Military Counter-Intelligence), he was able to move freely between Munich, Berlin and Rome. In his Abwehr bag he carried sheaves of documents giving a detailed account of the campaign being waged against Catholics inside Germany, and, after the Anschluss of 1938, in Austria.

It was clear from Mueller’s documentation that clergy were being singled out for ridicule, humiliation and punishment. The famous ‘Currency’ and ‘Immorality’ trials which peaked in 1935 and 1936, resulted in the imprisonment and fining of hundreds of clergy.

The ‘Immorality’ trials sought to destroy the reputation of Catholic religious, aimed in particular at those working in primary and secondary schools. Priests, monks, lay-brothers and nuns were accused of “perverted and immoral” lifestyles — euphemisms for homosexuality and paedophilia. The Gestapo set numerous traps in order to furnish bogus evidence. The New York Times carried a report in May 1936 describing priests who had been summoned to hotel rooms after desperate messages to administer the last sacraments were received. When the priest entered, the ‘caller’ would turn out to be a prostitute, planted by government agents. Photos would be later produced in court as irrefutable evidence of corruption.

One notorious trial in 1936 concerned the Franciscans of the Rhineland town of Waldbreitbach. This was widely publicised and parents were warned in sanctimoniously penned editorials not to allow their children to enter Catholic schools if they wished to avoid corruption of the innocent. Even children themselves were encouraged to read the lurid accounts. In several cities, newspaper stands were purposely lowered so youngsters could read salacious and pornographic stories accompanied by cartoons in the pages of Der Stuermer (the newspaper controlled by Julius Streicher, notorious anti-Semite and anti-Catholic). Witness statements from children were produced in court by secret police whose testimony was not challengeable. Threats, bribes, brutal night-time interrogations and nervous breakdowns of the accused were reported in various newspapers outside Germany.

In the USA, protest meetings and marches were organised as news of the trials spread. In June 1936, a petition was signed by 48 clergymen. “We lodge a solemn protest against the almost unique brutality of the attacks launched by the German government charging Catholic clergy with gross immorality,” they wrote. “The good name of the Catholic priesthood is to be defamed, in the hope that the ultimate suppression of all Jewish and Christian beliefs by the totalitarian state can be effected.” This protest was signed by Rabbis Samuel Abrams of Boston, Philip Bernstein of Rochester and Philip Bookstaber of Harrisburg, along with 18 other Rabbis and 27 Protestant clergymen. The New York Times reported that Christmas 1937 would see “more than a hundred Protestant pastors and several thousand Catholic clergymen in prison.”

Although roving SA and Hitler Youth gangs were warned in general against turning prominent clergy into martyrs, threats and violence against priests became common. Sometimes, in the wake of local instructions, senior clergy would be intimidated. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich was shot at and Cardinal Innitzer’s residence in Vienna was ransacked in October 1938. There was a notorious incident in the same month when Bishop Sproll of Rottenburg was manhandled and his residence vandalised. He later received an anonymous letter of apology from an SA man, forced to take part in the outrage: “I have always been proud of my country”, he wrote, “But last Saturday, I was, for the first time, ashamed to call myself a German.”


This actually happened, my friend. The physical evidence tells us that this happened and the Nazi regime was rather proud of it. They recorded these atrocities and wrote all sorts of accounts in state ran and controlled publications. In light of all this, please do not point the finger of guilt at any religious organization. There are simply too many victims and not enough fingers.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Gollum;
To jog your memory just a bit, an estimated 6 MILLION Poles died during the German occupation of that country. An estimated 50% of those Poles were Jewish. And the other 50%? They were Roman Catholic, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear SWR;
Yes, my friend, it seems there may be yet another conspiracy looming on yonder horizon.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar,

I know that the greatest majority of Catholic Priests have nothing but the best intentions for those they serve. As for that, I would say that the greatest majority of all religious types have the best of intentions, but no matter our position in life, we carry with us all the good AND bad personality traits that make us up. Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI may have had very deep seated anti-semitic or pro-German sentiments, and did what they could to keep many Nazis from standing trial. Not infallible, my friend, simply human.

While you say that:

The ‘Immorality’ trials sought to destroy the reputation of Catholic religious, aimed in particular at those working in primary and secondary schools. Priests, monks, lay-brothers and nuns were accused of “perverted and immoral” lifestyles — euphemisms for homosexuality and paedophilia.

You infer through your later statement that these were fraudulent charges made up so as to make the Catholic Church look bad. In some cases you may be correct, but in light of all the millions of dollars the Catholic Church has paid out to victims of Pedophile Priests, do you REALLY believe ALL those charges were made up? Do you think that those more recent molestations are all modern, or have things like that been going on from time imemorial?

Like I said before, I personally believe that the greatest majority off all religious types do the most good to the best of their abilities, but like in EVERY aspect of life, there are aberrations.

Yes, while about 3,000,000 massacred Poles were Jewish, and the other 2.8 million were Catholic and Other, doesn't that make what Pius XII did even more egregious? Facilitating the escape from justice many of the MAIN people responsible for the extermination of 2,800,000 CATHOLIC Poles? Infallible? ?......REALLY? ? ?

Best-Mike

  I raelly like these funny little logos, anyways I am only posting this because it relates to the name of this thread, there was a{ Lt.Peralta who served in the Spanish military in New Spain dureing the same time peroid and zones as F. Kino}, as for some of this lateest  thread as another says, "Lawd God Almaighty",gold does show up in all different types of designs,colors,Au,etc. :toothy1:just to bad it can"t talk.

Dear Gollum;
You seem to enjoy painting on only one half of the canvas, my friend. Let's be frank and clear about Pope Pius XII, about whom you've written:
Pope Pius XII and Pope Paul VI may have had very deep seated anti-semitic or pro-German sentiments, and did what they could to keep many Nazis from standing trial. Not infallible, my friend, simply human.


During the latter part of WWII, Pope Pius XII directly and personally appealled to many Latin American countries to accept the emergency passports of over 100,000 Jews who were able to obtain them through the Vatican and the US State Department. Due to the Pope's personal interventions, 13 Latin American countries permitted Jews fleeing Europe to reside in their countries legally and without time constraints, even after Nazi Germany threatened to deport all passport holders and even hunt down the Jews who had fled to Latin America.

Pope Pius XII also protested unceasingly about the deportation of Jews from outlaying European countries, most notably Hungary. When His protest was ignored, He sent telegram after telegram to the Nazi regime in Hungary. The Vatican, along with Swedish King, the Red Cross, the USA and Great Britain, finally swayed the Hungarian regent, Admiral Miklos Horthy to cease deportations in on July 8th, 1944.

Pope Pius XII also answered a request to save some 6,000 odd Jewish children in Bulgaria. Through His direct efforts, the children were sent to Palestine and their lives were thus spared the horrors of the concentration camps and the gas chambers.

Continuing on, the Roman Catholic Church officially condemned the Nazi's view on racism on 10 March 1937 with the encyclical titled "Mit Brennender Sorge" which means "With burning anxiety". This encyclical was signed by Pope Piux XI and even though it was published on 10 March 1937, it was not read until 14 March 1937, which was Palm Sunday and which has always been  when the Church has the most celebrants. This particular date was chosen in order for the words from the Vatican to be heard by the largest possible number of Roman Catholics and for it to have the largest possible impact. It was read from every pulpit in every Roman Catholic Cathedral, church and chapel throughout Germany and within it, the encyclical criticized Hitler in detail, denounced Nazi crimes and roundly condemned Nazi racial policies. It has been hailed as the Roman Catholic Church's greatest single condemnation and one which has had the greatest impact in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church.

The person who drafted the Church's greatest encyclical was Eugenio Cardinal Maria Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli, whom was elected to the Papacy on March 2nd, 1939 and became Pope Pius XII.
 
I have only included a few examples of what this particular Pope accomplished during His Reign as Supreme Pontiff and it is plain to see that He was not an anti-Semite nor was he a pro-German as your so-called conspiracy books would have you believe.

As for Pope Paul VI, I have absolutely no idea what you would have mentioned Him as being a possible anti-Semite or a pro-German, as it was He who stamped out all remaining traces of anti-semitism within the Church through his ceaseless labors to complete the Vatican II Council which helped to bind Roman Catholics worldwide with both our Christian and Jewish brethren.

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts. In this regard, you will become enlightened and your opinion of the world, along with yourself, may perhaps be altered, for the better as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts.

This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense.

HOLA amigo Thom,

Old Dog wrote

<Lamar posted, in reply to our amigo Gollum>

My humble advice to you would be to cease reading conspiracy theories and hateful doctrines and instead embark upon a study of historical facts.

This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense

I very nearly did that very thing Thom, after seeing Lamar's posts concerning basic geology and lode gold deposits, which he could have easily and readily checked online what several of us were telling him (that not all lode deposits have placers) and this follows a pattern of his, that he doubts and disbelieves virtually everything that we treasure hunters and prospectors tell him.  I decided not to ignore Lamar, just not to bother trying to convince him of anything much less take him along on a prospecting venture.  It is apparently his "thing" to try to discredit and cast doubts upon anything and everything related to such things as the Lost Dutchman, lost Jesuit treasures, the Peralta stones and so forth.  He is not alone in this little hobby of casting a shadow, and now I know it is a waste of time to try to tell him anything, even things which can be easily checked.    Life is just too short for such nonsense.


I think that if anything, we ought to keep an eye on what Lamar posts, as he is so suspicious and distrustful of everything we tell him, perhaps it is because he is being dishonest with us?     

your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Roy,

Personally, I don't find "honesty" to be a major factor when conversing with treasure hunters.  As long as the conversations are halfway respectful, and make me think or dive into the books, I am ok with Lamar.  He does keep me on my toes, and I have often been impressed with his knowledge.

On the placer thingie, I think he is way off base, but few of us have always hit the mark.  I won't be putting Lamar on ignore any time soon.  It's my hope that he will just say "I made a boo-boo" and leave it behind him.  In some of the replies to Lamar, I have seen mistakes and some questionable quotes.......meaning from questionable sources.

Really missed you and Beth at our shindig.  You would have absolutely loved it.

Take care,

Joe

[anything]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

Personally, I don't find "honesty" to be a major factor when conversing with treasure hunters. As long as the conversations are halfway respectful, and make me think or dive into the books, I am ok with Lamar. He does keep me on my toes, and I have often been impressed with his knowledge.

On the placer thingie, I think he is way off base, but few of us have always hit the mark. I won't be putting Lamar on ignore any time soon. It's my hope that he will just say "I made a boo-boo" and leave it behind him. In some of the replies to Lamar, I have seen mistakes and some questionable quotes.......meaning from questionable sources.

Really missed you and Beth at our shindig. You would have absolutely loved it

Greetings Joe,

I do not have Lamar on ignore, nor am I angry with him - just finally got it through my thick skull that being our resident professional skeptic is his "thing" and his level of disbelief extends even to things which he could check in a moment.  I do have to wonder about the honesty of a person who is SO doubtful of every statement.

I don't pretend to have never made a mistake in a post, nor to have a problem with folks who doubt what I may say - after all some folks say I am a born liar; but in our recent example it was not simply words that I stated which were in doubt.  I just don't wish to waste time typing, looking things up and re-typing it, for a person who simply doesn't believe anything I could post.  It is almost like a BB case in reverse.  BB practically demanded that we believe every word he posted, Lamar simply doesn't believe any word some of us post.

I sure wish we could have attended, considering how the weather worked against our getting much done here it probably wouldn't have made much difference in getting our little "project" done.  As you aptly pointed out, life is short and none of us are getting any younger, who knows how many more such opportunities will be?
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Dear Old Dog;
You wrote:
This coming from a person bent on discrediting all the "known and historical" facts.

you come closer and closer to the ignore button every time you post this type of nonsense.

By all means, please feel free to do so if your conscious so dictates, my friend, however, before you do, you may wish to be aware that like the double edged sword, the IGNORE button cuts both ways.

Also, you may wish to know that what Gollum and myself are doing is commonly referred to as *bantering*. He is taking my replies for whatever they are worth as I am with his. I am fairly certain that Gollum with come back with some documentation about the involvement of the Church in aiding the Nazis, etc.

Also, the comment which seemed to infuriate you was done so in response to Gollums' prior remark that "I read read read read." In short, we are verbally sparring with one another,and if this type of activity does not suit your fancy then by all means please use the IGNORE button without further hesitation, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

HOLA amigo Thom,

I think that if anything, we ought to keep an eye on what Lamar posts, as he is so suspicious and distrustful of everything we tell him, perhaps it is because he is being dishonest with us?     

your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco
 

Roy,
I agree with both you and Joe.
for another reason I will leave things as they are, with irritation as my motive for now.

Lamar,

Banter is correct. A spirited back and forth.

Whatever else Pius XII did, he directly facilitated the flights from justice of MANY Nazi war criminals, who were directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent civilians. Your argument is like saying "Maybe that Priest did molest those kids, but man he gave a great sermon!" One does not expiate the other.

I mention Pope Paul VI, because prior to being a Pope, he was called Bishop Montini. He was head of the Vatican's Office of Extraordinary Affairs. He was Father Dragunovic's immediate supervisor in the extrications of the Comandants of Sobibor (299,000 murdered), Treblinka (900,000 murdered), and Drancy (this was the main deportation camp, where people were retransported to different extermination camps) Concentration Camps.

.............and what I said was "MAY HAVE" regarding any anti-semitic feelings. You COMPLETELY missed the point because I also said they may have had very "PRO-GERMAN" feelings as well. I don't personally know either of them, and couldn't tell you a thing about how they felt. I can only judge by what we KNOW THEY DID! THEY FACILITATED THE FLIGHTS FROM JUSTICE MANY NAZIS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTERMINATIONS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! INFALLIBLE? I THINK NOT!

Best-Mike

[At the same time, in his role as adviser to the University Federation of Catholic Action, Montini took a rather critical position regarding the fascist regime and befriended a number of antifascists including Alcide De Gasperi and Aldo Moro both of whom would be (future Christian Democratic prime ministers in postwar Italy).]

Mike,
 
I believe you are wrong about Paul VI (Giovanni Battista Montini), who was Pope of the Roman Catholic Church from 1963 to 1978.  His evolvement with the Nazis and World War II consisted of this:

"From 1923 to 1939 Montini served in the Papal Secretariat of State, where, after 1930, he worked closely with Eugenic Pacelli, the future Pius XII (1939-58), who was then Pius XI's (1922-39) secretary of state. At the same time, in his role as adviser to the University Federation of Catholic Action, Montini took a rather critical position regarding the fascist regime and befriended a number of antifascists including Alcide De Gasperi and Aldo Moro both of whom would be (future Christian Democratic prime ministers in postwar Italy). In 1937 Montini was appointed undersecretary of state and retained that position after Pius XII's election in 1939. During World War II Montini was charged with the care of Allied diplomats confined within the Vatican, and in that post he gained their respect and appreciation. He also played a significant role in the care of the many refugees who crowded into the confines of the Vatican and the papal residence of Castel Gandolfo, outside of Rome, during that period."

My source is:  Europe since 1945: An Encyclopedia. Volume: 2.

Perhaps further research is needed by everyone on this subject.

Take care,

Joe

Dear Gollum:
You wrote;
Lamar,

Banter is correct. A spirited back and forth.

Whatever else Pius XII did, he directly facilitated the flights from justice of MANY Nazi war criminals, who were directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent civilians. Your argument is like saying "Maybe that Priest did molest those kids, but man he gave a great sermon!" One does not expiate the other.

I mention Pope Paul VI, because prior to being a Pope, he was called Bishop Montini. He was head of the Vatican's Office of Extraordinary Affairs. He was Father Dragunovic's immediate supervisor in the extrications of the Comandants of Sobibor (299,000 murdered), Treblinka (900,000 murdered), and Drancy (this was the main deportation camp, where people were retransported to different extermination camps) Concentration Camps.

.............and what I said was "MAY HAVE" regarding any anti-semitic feelings. You COMPLETELY missed the point because I also said they may have had very "PRO-GERMAN" feelings as well. I don't personally know either of them, and couldn't tell you a thing about how they felt. I can only judge by what we KNOW THEY DID! THEY FACILITATED THE FLIGHTS FROM JUSTICE MANY NAZIS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EXTERMINATIONS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE! INFALLIBLE? I THINK NOT!

Once again, I am only taking into account the actions of the POPE not the person whom He was before becoming Pope, nor the person whom He was after stepping down from the throne of Christ, if He so chose to abdicate.

Also, as a little known and very often glossed over fact, Adolph Hitler was a lifelong Roman Catholic, as were many in his regime. In light of this, the Roman Catholic Church has ABSOLUTELY NO RECOURSE other than to pray for the redemption of those people. The absolution and redemption of all sins is promised to us by Our Lord in the Bible, my friend and as such, we cannot pick and choose whom will ascend into Heaven and whom shall not.

The Roman Catholic Church has accquired the stance that ALL executions are wrong, my friend, for any reason whatsoever. In light of this, the Roman Catholic Church has an obligation to aid and assist any and all of her congregation whom may be faced with the death penalty in the firm and unwavering hope of redemption.

Please understand that as an entity, the Roman Catholic Church has never approved of one human killing another, in strict adherence to the 5th Commandment, non occides (no murder[or kill]). What various clergy may have actually said and done in the past in regards to this Commandment is besides the point, as the point is that a religious organization, the Roman Catholic Church has always held the belief consistent with the word of God as found in Deuteronomy 5:17.

The Roman Catholic Church, as a religious organization, condemned the Nazi party of Germany. What some members may have, or may not have, done as individual clergy members is a separate issue and as such, is not part of my original statement. I stated, in jest, that basically the only person on Earth who is infallible is the Pope and now you are dragging out what this Bishop did, or what that Cardinal stated, etc. This is not an issue because it is not a part of my statement. I stated that only the Pope is infallible, and thus far no one has ever been able to provide evidence that ANY Pope supported the policies held by the Nazis.

I do hope this clarifies my stance somewhat and I also hope that this statement serves to end the discussion on Popes, infallibility, Nazis, and culpability.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar and Mike,

I doubt any thinking person believes any man is infallible, including the Pope's.  Many of them have been somewhat senile and in poor health.  That is a direct result of how the new Pope's are chosen.

Pius XII tried to do what he believed was the right thing, for the Church and the world.  It's easy to look back in history and judge it by what is known today.  Perhaps he was an evil man, and perhaps he felt he had to straddle the fence on many issues.  As a fallible man, he was bound to come down on the wrong side occasionally.

I would imagine to judge Pius XII, you would need to have walked in his shoes.  You might have chosen different paths, and you might have taken the same ones he did.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend I am in agreement with you on this. Papal infallibilty is subject to highly defined doctrines and dogma, and to the best of my knowledge, the only time in recent history that a Pope exercised the right of Ex Cathedra was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII, when He difined the assumption of Mary. The time before that was in 1854 when Pope Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception. Looking at the dates we can see that the Vatican exercises the right of Ex Cathedra about once every 100 years or less. In all actuality the Papacy exercised Ex Cathedra only 7 times during the existence of the Church, therefore the issue of Papal infallibility should not be an issue at all.

Most people tend to think that the sitting Pope is infallible in thought and deed from the moment He ascends the Throne of St. Peter until death or abdication, but this is completely untrue. The entire theology behind Papal infallibilty is beyond the scope of this forum, therefore I urge all forum members whom are interested in learning more about Papal infallibility to go to this website:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
Your friend;
LAMAR