The Peralta Stones

 

Maybe MOCCASINS would do? 

Ellie Baba wrote

Any of you guys ready for this kind of excitement and I will take you to the places where I have been warned numerous times to stay away.

You should get in touch with our friend and member Captain Bill, he has been looking for such adventures.
 

Hey Ellie - I may not agree with the many shadow markers and other signs you believe exist out there, but one thing I do enjoy is a good adventure!!!  Maybe on one of my next trips out to AZ next year?

Hi Group,

Would be glad to have you out Cubfan. I do not know Captain Bill so I will look for one of his posts and contact him.
The good thing SWR is that I do not have anything to sell, you can't buy it. Everyone has a right to believe what they want to believe and I will never fault a person of being --deleted--. That is why I post my experiences and knowledge on these pages.
I will defend my friends SWR and to call people Sissy's and scarred little school girls sizes up your manhood and I challenge you to put your money where your mouth should be... I am not offended at your remarks personally and would welcome you in our camp anytime. A week or two in the Supers and we will all know what you are made of my Friend.

Sincerely,

EB

Aside from anything else - any stories or whatever - wandering in a place like the Supers is always a dangerous endeavor.  People have been killed just because someone thought that someone else had a map, or a clue, or whatever. (real or imagined).  I dare say that the old Dutchman knew this very well.

Not to mention just being in the desert, which has its own issues.

Most treasure hunters (experienced, I mean) are far from sissified, and know their vulnerabilities - and, I dare say, don't need an expert sniper to cover their butts.  And I would question the motives of anyone who said they would show me all these things, but with a "sniper" on hand.

There might  be a major reason to be chased out of a place - like you are on someone else's land or claim - a problem we are well acquainted with.


B

B wrote,

Most treasure hunters (experienced, I mean) are far from sissified, and know their vulnerabilities - and, I dare say, don't need an expert sniper to cover their butts.  And I would question the motives of anyone who said they would show me all these things, but with a "sniper" on hand.
We never had to use a sniper in the past and never actually thought about it. We always carried our side arms for protection as just about every desert wandering Arizonan does. There are four legged varmints and two legged ones also. When you start looking in areas that you are not supposed to be poking around in you will normally find one to three signs indicating danger, blood or death. These signs are put in plain sight so you will find them, understand them and get the heck out and do not come back. We were pushing the envelope on numerous occasions to see if we could call their bluff. It is very rare to find treasure sign carved in trees of the desert because most of these desert varieties are easily destroyed by wind, gully washers and fire. We found a super nice example carved in an old mulberry (?) and we were looking for this clue for days. We had found a turkey track on an adjacent hill to the east, but could not find the directional marker after driving all over the place. HBB kept telling us to open our eyes; the marker had to be here nearby. We walked up under the tree for shade and while taking a swig of water Bob noticed the carving which depicted the road we were on, the turkey track and the letter “W”. The sign was reversed, but we still had to go west and after walking about 500 feet we looked to the west and found the keyhole up on the side of a large hill with an outcropping sticking up and a hole was made near its center. We climbed up this hill and looked through the hole and nothing came into view. Bob was sitting on a rock and remembered the reversed image and shouted up to us to look through it from the other side which we did. There was a large boulder in the sight hole and we all walked down to take a closer look at the boulder. We turned on the metal detector and Bob found a long metal file with a number of notches filed into it and it was pointing back to the west. We were within 500 feet of the cache and we were so excited. We had to go as it was getting dark fast and we would come back tomorrow and set our sights on the goal. I was soon to find out that I had a more pressing business issue to deal with so Bob and Brian would have to return to the cache site without me.

That next day was helicopter, big Mofo with big gun with the final warning. Most treasure hunters will never get close enough to these protected caches because they are looking in the wrong places. Some of you understand what I am saying, some of you will soon put the pieces together and some of you cannot quite grasp the facts and will never see the light. So B, I can safely take anyone to these places and not encounter any trouble. They know who I am and they know Brewer and Brian. If I enter the area with mining equipment along with a metal detector I (and others within my company) may not be around this world much longer. You leave them alone and they will leave you alone. Brewer has known this fact for years and everyone wonders why he hasn't dug up a large cache or depository. Its politics my friends and you cannot take on the powers that be. That is why I stick to the shadow symbols, signs and the stone tablets; I get it boys, I can hear them laughing in the background along with some of you. So SWR, are you a member of any secret society?

Pleasant dreams Group,

EB

Wouldnt it make the most sense to post the "coordinates" of these "well guarded sights" so all who enter could avoid these unsafe places?? If anyone knows of unsafe well guarded areas please post them in the name of humanity!

Wouldn't it make the most sense to post the "coordinates" of these "well guarded sights" so all who enter could avoid these unsafe places?? If anyone knows of unsafe well guarded areas please post them in the name of humanity!

If we were to do that we would let the cat out of the bag wouldn't we? Like I said you'll get a couple of visual warnings and then receive a threat if you get to close to a cache area. Just hang around a couple of days and look like you're a treasure hunter and if you find no signs of blood, death, etc. you are looking in the wrong place. If you are riding bikes, ATV's, or camping you will have nary a worry. Remember B's statement; "Most treasure hunters (experienced, I mean) are far from sissified, and know their vulnerabilities". You must know your vulnerabilities SFNM if you are to be a treasure hunter. I think that most treasure hunters consider this work as a hobby, I for one along with others consider treasure hunting as a profession. Especially for those of us that work in the field. You would have a better chance of coming across a rattler or sidewinder than stumbling upon a real treasure cache.

Have a good evening,

EB

"couple of visual warnings and then receive a threat " "YOU BETTER KILL ME RIGHT ONSITE OR YOUR GONNA HAVE A WAR" EITHER WAY ITS AUTOMATIC WAR IN THE RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE. "couple of visual warnings and then receive a threat " ITS ON BUDDY! IM YOUR WORST NIGHT MARE! AND IM NOT JUST SPEAKING FOR MY SELF ! IVE NEVER TOLERATED BULLIES!!!! AND ILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO PROOVE IT! YOU COULD EASILY AVOID BLOODSHED BY SIMPLY POSTING THE COORDINATES ITS YOUR CHOICE?

"couple of visual warnings and then receive a threat " "YOU BETTER KILL ME RIGHT ONSITE OR YOUR GONNA HAVE A WAR" EITHER WAY ITS AUTOMATIC WAR IN THE RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE. "couple of visual warnings and then receive a threat " ITS ON BUDDY! IM YOUR WORST NIGHT MARE! AND IM NOT JUST SPEAKING FOR MY SELF ! IVE NEVER TOLERATED BULLIES!!!! AND ILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH TO PROOVE IT! YOU COULD EASILY AVOID BLOODSHED BY SIMPLY POSTING THE COORDINATES ITS YOUR CHOICE?

 

Paul,

Not to worry, it's just that there's nothing going on over at Desert USA, so our friend is trying to stir up a little dust here.  Eventually he will get insulted and run away.......again.

Take care,

Joe

I HAVE RIGHTS "IM AN AMERICAN" AND THIS IS "AMERICA" AND I DONT TAKE ANYONES BULL--deleted-- THREATS! HOWEVER ASK ME NICELY AND THATS A DIFFERENT STORY .

IT WAS A FREE COUNTRY LAST TIME I HEARD!

CLUBFAN GUESS YOUVE NEVER HEARD OF SELF DEFENSE AGAINST BULLIES YOU SHOULD TRY IT SOMETIME IT BUILDS CHARACTER!

"I Love You Cactus"

Yes, I know.  It's not easy being me, but then I'm sure it ain't easy being you either.

At least on this site, you can present your facts, I assume you have some, without having a heavy handed censor, of
low inteligence, delete them.  It would be interesting to see you come out and try debating the facts......for once.

Let's discuss the Bilbrey Crosses over in that topic.

Joe Ribaudo

[Lots of room for HUGE and dangerous mis-understandings.]

HOLA amigos,

There are two sides to every story, and what may seem like "bullies" trying to muscle a treasure hunter away from some hidden loot, may seem like TRESPASSERS on private land or CLAIMJUMPERS on a Mining Claim to the other fellow, the one trying to chase the treasure hunter away.  How would you like it if some guys were sneaking into your back yard to dig for treasures, which you do not believe exists?  Some folks don't like it, and claimjumpers are pretty common today largely due to ignorance of the status of various mining claims and plain naivety on the part of many neophyte and hobby treasure hunters, prospectors and rockhounds.  Lots of room for HUGE and dangerous mis-understandings. 

I think a lot of such misunderstandings would be avoided if we would take the time to educate newbies and amateurs in how to research current landowners, mining claim records, and what is and what is not allowed under the law.  The info is out there (FREE) but most (if not all) new treasure hunters and prospectors do not have a clue about how to go about finding out where they can go searching.  So they wander onto mining claims, cut fences into pastures and dig holes willy-nilly, and the landowner or mine owner reacts angrily - and we are set for another tale of treasure hunters being chased off at gunpoint. 

Bottom line - find out whose land you are wanting to go searching on, ask permission, if they tell you NO honor that and look elsewhere (there are literally MILLIONS of acres of public lands to search) and check your BLM records for active Mining Claims. If it is State land, contact the state authorities covering mining claims and mineral leases to find out where you can go.  No amount of treasure will do you one bit of good if you are shot dead in a heated argument with a landowner.  It ain't the 'wild west' amigos.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco

Dear Ellie Baba;
If SWR were a member of a secret society or a *clandestine organization* (I love using those two words), and if he told you that he was, then it would no longer be a secret, now would it?
Your friend;
LAMAR

... "You leave them alone and they will leave you alone" is a rather cheesy excuse for not recovering "treasure"....

Assuming of course that the caches are 'lost'.  'Lost' - gee, how careless of them!

CLUBFAN GUESS YOUVE NEVER HEARD OF SELF DEFENSE AGAINST BULLIES YOU SHOULD TRY IT SOMETIME IT BUILDS CHARACTER!

I have no problem standing up against a bully when it's directed at me, my  comment was due to your seeming to be challenging Ellie and getting in his face when his post had nothing to do with him personally issuing you a threat.

Anyways - let's get back to the thread topic shall we?

HI New Mexican, my friend :  I'll take cub fan as a backup any time. Trust is as equally necessary as pysical ability is.  In his case, both are present.

Don Jose de La Mancha

It's not hard to lose a cache - or anything else that might be in the great outdoors (and come to think of it, what the heck did I do with my remote) - in the house.

Trappers lose traps all the time, and people lose themselves in the wilderness - heck, if you can lose yourself (get lost), why is it so incredible that someone could lose a cache if:  they died and didn't give good directions to a relative, or, if there were many floods that changed the roads (we all know what the roads in the desert are - washes - that can change with any gully-washer) or - if there was some other act of god - like an earthquake - we know there have never been any of those in the areas we are discussing, right?

Of course, if they had used their GPS's in the 1800's, I guess nothing would be lost - oh - forgot, they used things like rocks and cactus and stones with holes, to "read" where they were,  and that was incredibly accurate, heh?

Since there HAVE been cache's found, I see no reason why there are not others.  People today hide their valuables - and they are no different than the old-timers.

This is not a case of just one adventure story, and it has been lost and found and lost and found, more than a couple of times. (though I still think that if you are using the Peralta Stones to find it, you are wasting your time).

I really do not understand the concept of having a "guide" - heck, if you knew where you were going, you sure wouldn't take ME there, it would already be found.  Much like some other folks who take people up into the Supers, they do not know where it is, so they don't know where to take people, just "up into the mountains, where.................."

B

Hi Group,

National Treasure was a great movie and it was based on actual in the field experiences and tons of documentation. Bob Brewer worked with Buena Vista to provide the script. To make a movie profitable the true stories have been changed, ie; so that the hero (Nick Cage) and his friends win the day, find the treasure and live happily ever after. The actual alternate ending would go something like this: As soon as the SS noticed Nick and friends near the actual church the treasure was hidden under they would have been dealt with severely. Were they prepared? No way! The FBI guy who wore a Masonic ring was a small time player. The only Masons that know about the actual depositories are 33 degree level Masons or other high level individuals in other secret organizations on a need to know basis (the Jesuits being one of these, sorry Lamar, but its true). Why do you think the Wilderness Areas were created, why are the USGS maps loaded with instructional clues to these treasures locations, why have the actual sectional datum pins been changed in the field and do not correspond to the maps? I will tell you why. Go ahead and call your local Sheriff or other government enforcement agencies and see how well they will help you when you go up against a government who is entrenched with these same secret societies. Springfield, you must have heard about the treasure trove found in New Mexico a few years back. The National Guard and the FBI were all over the place kicked everyone off of the property, fenced it in and the area is off limits. One of my friends (the owner of a metal detector company) called me by phone while they were being swarmed by the National Guard and he was frightened beyond belief. What about Victorio Peak? This trove belonged to the SS and look at how they handled it. The area became a part of the White Sands Missile Base and then the Army carried off all the gold and relics (this has been somewhat documented) and then allowed the Noss Group to go find the treasure if there was one and low and behold it was gone! Who do you think authorized this mission and who has control of the treasure? Does the President tell the troops all of the details of a mission? Heck no, he tells his Generals and the orders go through the chain of command, none of them have any idea what this mission has to do with, they just follow orders. Am I right or wrong?
It is the same with the Secret Societies, only the top leaders know the truth and the worker bees have their orders and they infiltrate into normal everyday jobs within society while doing there work for the SS. I have a very reliable contact in Tucson, a government employee who told me years ago that the Feds will know when we get close to finding a trove and step in and secure it. They have been watching the depository areas via satellite. So when I state that I know some of these guys I mean just that. The Spiral Staircase (an Egyptian Site) located on the Southeast side of the Soups was discovered and a number of personal friends had actually seen and held some of the artifacts. One of my best friends was to construct a a large support made of timbers to hold up the huge two to three ton dead fall boulder from coming down. For some reason it didn't fall when they entered the second tunnel. A few days later these bad dudes show up and threatened the initial finders (3) and they were so scared that one moved to Washington State, one moved to California and the other guy just disappeared. Not long after this site was fenced up and warning notices placed in the area. A good friend of mine later went to the site to show some nonbelievers the spot and they were met by the FBI and told to leave the area immediately. Two of these people were really ticked after the event occurred and later admitted that they would not have said a word while in the company of these FBI agents. Know your vulnerabilities my friends and keep your search focused on the LDM. When confronted with any military organization would you seriously demand your rights? I led an aggressive unit trained to infiltrate the enemies camp, control communication and quietly dispose of those not on our side. They had no rights. If you believe that we have rights in this country today then you will never understand what I have been trying to present on these forum pages.

Have a great weekend my friends,

EB

If you want to talk about presidents - most, if not all, of our presidents don't even know what the clandestine upper government (higher than him, and unnamed) even do.  Plausible deniability, as it were.

Also, there are many new maps that have water sources removed - on purpose, along with old mines and diggings, also, on purpose.

That only accomplishes a couple of things - 1:  Newbies will die   2:  the older, more experienced folks know where they are anyway, and will pass it on.

Much like the roads and routes that are removed from the maps in California, people think they don't exist - but, they are still there, all you have to do is be experienced or, if new - be careful and look around.  Use those GPS's and mark the waypoints.

We have been confronted on our own claims - and I have seen people arrested on their own claims - dragged off in handcuffs by folks who are NOT part of the Federal government.  It's not rocket science.  There is an element in this country who want all the control. 

Save your old maps, make your own maps, document where you go and where you've gone, document landmarks, etc., etc.

Regardless of all that - if you let those things stop you - you are giving up your rights, something I will never do.

We have a Masonic Lodge here - more than 60% are 33rd  degree - it seems, anymore that everyone is a chief.  (at least here). Heck, most of our presidents were masons.

B

[those who are unnaccountable,]

... Regardless of all that - if you let those things stop you - you are giving up your rights, something I will never do.....

Of course you can exercise your rights, as long as you operate within the framework of everyday society as we know it, where people are generally held accountable and there is a system in place to redress their grievances.  However, once you threaten the security of those who are unnaccountable, and who live beyond the legal framework you and I do, then you will very quickly give up your rights if threatened.   Why?  Because when your life and those of your family are literally in the balance, you will realize that you are utterly powerless to control the situation, and you will capitulate.  Martyrs are a dime a dozen, and very few of us are willing to join that club.  

The reason so many TH-er's (who believe they 'know' stuff) are reluctant to believe this is because they have been nowhere close to the caches that they have been chasing and therefore are merely running in circles safely away from the prize they think they're 'close' to.  That's because the 'clues' they have been hanging on, old and new, are disinformation.

It's not that some do not believe it is happening - its that there are still some souls in this country that are willing to give up their lives for their freedom to do what is legal.

Just like the people who own guns - the statement you see so often, tells of the character of these people "You will get my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hand".

There are many people who are unwilling to let sub-cultures win the battle.  It is, a matter of principal.  One of the reasons Germany (Hitler) got as far as he did, is because a whole group of people were "abiding" enough to be enslaved and killed.  If we do that, it can only spread.  Its no different than jumping out of an airplane - that chute may not open - but for some, it is worth the chance.  Remember Hitler's motto:  Kill one, frighten 1000. (from Nero)

B

Beth Wrote;

We have a Masonic Lodge here - more than 60% are 33rd  degree - it seems, anymore that everyone is a chief.  (at least here). Heck, most of our presidents were masons.

Hi Beth,

There are only two recognized Supreme Councils in the United States and the "Most Puissant Sovereign Grand Commander"  is a 33rd degree Mason (one per council) Total Councils in the world are 26. These 26 33rd degree Masons are the only true enlightened leaders that are knowledgeable of the hidden depositories of the world within the Masonic membership. Add the other members of the other related secret societies including heads of government, banking institutions, etc. A typical Lodge will have a few 32nd degree Masons, but not 60% 33rd degree as noted above. Not all Masonic Lodges are excepted by the primary Masonic government in charge of the 26 accepted Masonic Supreme Councils. My ex-father in law is a 32nd degree Mason here in Phoenix. He has never heard of any treasure troves located here in Arizona and if he did know he would not have told me anyway. My father was also a Mason and he just told me to join the order and work my way up through the ranks.

Also, there are many new maps that have water sources removed - on purpose, along with old mines and diggings, also, on purpose.

Guess who had their hands involved in changing our maps; the SS working with the Federal Government.

We have been confronted on our own claims - and I have seen people arrested on their own claims - dragged off in handcuffs by folks who are NOT part of the Federal government.  It's not rocket science.  There is an element in this country who want all the control.

Its the New World Order Beth and these groups are all tied together. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand the new G20 Summit wants to form a one world government and we do not want President Obama to sign this so called Green House document.

You are correct about our Masonic Presidents; I am currently trying to figure out two executive orders made by two different presidents relating to the withdrawal of one known KGC site. Theodore Roosevelt (M), Franklin D. Roosevelt (M) and John F. Kennedy (non-Masonic) he issued the order to reopen the lands for mineral entry. the resulting order was bizarre to say the least. Document, document. More to come later.

EB

EB,When the Presidents signed these orders, they were delegateing ten"s of thousands of acres to be protected. To say they were doing this to protect any one treasure site, a "possible" mere spect on the landscape, defies common sense. Not to say our government does not display this trait often, I surely don"t believe its the case in your statement, EB. Proof as they say is in the pudding, I do disagree with a lot of your beliefs/conections,especially where the Dutchman is concerned being a "sentinal", however I can"t prove you wrong, but I haven"t seen that you have proved the case either. Your posts make a good read and I thank you for that..gd

[respectfully]

Greetings friends,

Ellie Baba wrote

National Treasure was a great movie

Agreed, except I respectfully disagree on the amount of "truth" involved, as it looks like much more "dramatic license" is involved than reality - rather like the Da Vinci Code.  Great story, great movie, not a sound basis for seeking real treasures. Just a personal opinion of course.

Mrs Oroblanco wrote

Also, there are many new maps that have water sources removed - on purpose, along with old mines and diggings, also, on purpose.

I feel this practice is CRIMINAL on the part of our public servants.  In this day of open information, the fact that topographic maps are being deliberately altered to "hide" certain features, in order to "protect them from the public" smacks of fascism and elitism at its worst.  If I were wealthy, I would file a lawsuit to get this practice STOPPED.  These maps are created by public servants, paid for from the public treasury and public taxes, are OWNED by the public, they have no right to be hiding anything that is not a specific case of national security.  Heck we ought to file a class action lawsuit against the United States Geological Survey.

Springfield wrote

The reason so many TH-er's (who believe they 'know' stuff) are reluctant to believe this is because they have been nowhere close to the caches that they have been chasing and therefore are merely running in circles safely away from the prize they think they're 'close' to.  That's because the 'clues' they have been hanging on, old and new, are disinformation.

I have to agree in part and respectfully disagree in part - for in some cases the "clues" ARE undoubtedly pure misinformation, likely deliberate.  (The Holmes manuscript comes to mind)  However in some cases I believe the "clues" are recorded as truthful as it was received, just that they may be erroneous in some detail, as in "west" instead of "east". Otherwise the "treasure" or mine would not be LOST.  Of course even with a full set of utterly incorrect "clues" many a treasure hunter has had some of the greatest adventures of their lives, which are treasures in their own right.  Whom amongst us would trade their treasure hunting experiences away if it were possible, including the un-successful expeditions?

This paragraph is for our "newbie" readers who are not actively posting.  Some of us seek documentation beyond what is possible, for not everything CAN be documented and a great many records have been lost to history - most of the Jesuit records from Pimeria Alta for instance or the Wells Fargo shipping records just for starters.  It may seem logical to dismiss a story for lack of documentation but you will miss out on many (or possibly most) lost treasures because the original records no longer exist.  On this basis, that we must insist on original documentation to support every aspect, much of history and religion would have to be dismissed.  It is also poor etiquette to demand for someone else to do all the research for you, before you will believe or accept the story.  I will get off the soapbox now, I am sure nothing I could say will change the attitudes of some of us, just want our neophytes to realize that while documentation is GREAT, it is NOT always possible nor even necessary for the purpose of finding and recovering a lost treasure.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. 
Oroblanco   



 

My point exactly, the facts are always not available, so many possible endings  "one being the truth exist".  There said in less than 1 paragraph.

Hmmm  what can I say? cept'n sheesh.  Beth, is the coffee ready? 

Don Jose de La Mancha

There is always coffee ready       


B

EB, I do respect your various thoughts, I dont mean to come off so strong about any issue, you have been there, I haven"t, I sure you have alot more imfo than me, my disagreements are very thin to say the least, and I have not a shred of proof for my opinons. The only reason I responded is I have been drinking all day which is not a good thing for my diabitis,really stupid on my part, I do enjoy your posts.
Best Regards,jp

[I have been drinking all day]

Ghostdog wrote

The only reason I responded is I have been drinking all day

Hmm - "En Vino Veritas"?  <I am kidding amigo! >  I have done much the same, sometimes say things that I later regret. Just wanted to rib you! 
Oroblanco

Thanks Oro no problem, ribs sound good with  , regards to you and your other half also.jp

EB,When the Presidents signed these orders, they were delegateing ten"s of thousands of acres to be protected. To say they were doing this to protect any one treasure site, a "possible" mere spect on the landscape, defies common sense. Not to say our government does not display this trait often, I surely don"t believe its the case in your statement, EB. Proof as they say is in the pudding, I do disagree with a lot of your beliefs/conections,especially where the Dutchman is concerned being a "sentinal", however I can"t prove you wrong, but I haven"t seen that you have proved the case either. Your posts make a good read and I thank you for that..gd

Ghostdog,

I wish that I could just show you a copy of the order, however any part of it is specific to our area of interest. Some of the following information from the order will be missing. I had just received these two Executive Orders yesterday and the first is dated December 1936, Executive Order No.XXXX Withdrawing Public Land for the use of the War department ARIZONA, by virtue of  and pursuant to the authority vested in me by the act of June 1910, ch.x21, 3x Stat. 047, as amended by the act of August 1912, ch.xx9, 3x Stat.. x9x, it is ordered that the following-described land in the State of Arizona be, and it is herby, temporarily withdrawn from settlement, location,sale, or entry and reserved for use of the War department as an enlargement of a xxxxxxxxxxxx used by the Arizona National Guard;

T. X N., R. X W., G, & S. R. M.
sec. X, All
sec. X, W1/2, NE 1/2, N/W 1/4

Executive Order No. XXXX dated November XX, 1934, as amended, is hereby modified to the extent necessary to make this order effective. This order shall continue in full force and effect unless and until revoked by the President or by act of Congress.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

The White House, December XX, 1936.

Hi Group,

A KGC Mining site was taken away by this executive order and a deep shaft hides a large cache of gold and other items. President Roosevelt was a 32nd Degree Mason and he specifically targeted 160 acres of mining claims that once belonged to a Southern Sympathetic Group who were known Southern supporters and were members of the KGC and the Odd fellows (IOOF). This depository is connected to the Stone Maps and has a direct tie to the Florence Topo Depositories as mentioned in another post in part of Lost Dutchman Forums. Hey guys I am busting my butt to sort this mountain of information out so just hang in there with me and we will figure these Stone Tablets out.

Time for bed, later,

EB


So, Ghostdog that is the best I can do for now. The other Executive Order was to revoke the action and it is signed by JFK. Group, I wish that I could post more of my documentation, but I just can't do it right now. I will provide tidbits here and there to try and back up my claims.

Oroblanco:
... In this day of open information, the fact that topographic maps are being deliberately altered to "hide" certain features, in order to "protect them from the public" smacks of fascism and elitism at its worst.  If I were wealthy, I would file a lawsuit to get this practice STOPPED.  These maps are created by public servants, paid for from the public treasury and public taxes, are OWNED by the public, they have no right to be hiding anything that is not a specific case of national security.  Heck we ought to file a class action lawsuit against the United States Geological Survey.

An impassioned outrage, O, but if you were wealthy, your energy would probably yield better results if you could obtain as many of the old maps as possible and make them available to the public.  These documents are out there, but they're getting harder to track down.


Oroblanco:
... Of course even with a full set of utterly incorrect "clues" many a treasure hunter has had some of the greatest adventures of their lives, which are treasures in their own right.  Whom amongst us would trade their treasure hunting experiences away if it were possible, including the un-successful expeditions?

You're wisdom is showing here.  It's the quest that is the true prize.  Sure, recovering a fencepost jar of coins would be sweet.  Stumbling across perfect arrowheads is a thrill too, or a nice pocket of placer in some stream, but it's the anticipation of the hunt and the time spent in terra incognita that benefits all of us.  As far as the famous 'lost mines' and 'hidden treasures' are concerned, well .... I guess I've stated my opinions elsewhere.  Let me just say that once you 'see the light', your curiosity will elevate you into different ways of looking at things.

I just find it almost incredible that satellites are busily photographing everyone's back yard with such accuracy as to be invasive of privacy, yet the very same govt agencies are deliberately altering topographic maps out of deference to a special interest group.  It should not take the actions of ANY private party to preserve and make available accurate maps which were paid for by the public and made for the public use.
Oroblanco

Hola ORO: "yet the very same govt agencies are deliberately altering topographic maps out of deference to a special interest group."      I Think this sums it up.   

1.Forward movement: advance, advancement, furtherance, headway, march1, progression. See better/worse, forward/backward.
2.A progression from a simple form to a more complex one: development, evolution, evolvement, growth, unfolding. See change/persist.
3.Steady improvement, as of an individual or a society: amelioration, betterment, development, improvement, melioration. See better/worse.


To go forward, especially toward a conclusion: advance, come (along), get along, march1, move, proceed. See approach/retreat. 

Santa Fe New Mexican,

You are almost right - the truth of the matter is that many of these special interest groups are actually doing the maps themselves, compliments of the government's permission.

Before the California Desert Protection Act was even in committee, I was able to get a copy of what was the "new map" - I called people in the government (Feinstein) that was working on the proposed law, and they referred me to Nature's Conservancy - which I did contact - and THEY were the ones in charge of figuring out what land they wanted protected.  (which they sent to me almost a year before it ever hit the congress).
And, that map I have, is exactly what was in the bill, as passed).

Not to mention - they went out into the desert with government signs, blocking all the side roads, way before the bill went into effect - then they changed the roads to "routes".

Who has the power?

Who are we "saving" all this for?  So that someday, our great grandchildren can go on a train ride and see it in a bubble?  Our public land belongs to the special interest groups - what kicks it for me, is things like - the very same area that I cannot drive on, still has the desert speed races, and most of the money goes to - no, not us, no, not the state, no, not the department - 80% goes to Nature's Conservancy and Sierra Club.  Why is that?

Sierra Club has a large meeting out in the desert - they drove there - where you and I cannot drive - they had about 200 cars and SUVs.

Sorry, didn't mean to turn that into a rant.

B

Dear group;
I think the point is that nobody can state with any degree of accuracy what were original designs and intentions of the stone maps, therefore how can anyone state with any accuracy that the stone maps point the way to the LDM? The same can also be stated about the Bilbrey crosses and the Latin heart. Nobody has yet to decipher any one of those item, therefore how can anyone state that the items in question are even related to the LDM? For all anyone may know, the items may very well be for an entirely different purpose and it is upon this that I rest my hypothesis, my friends.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear group;
I think the point is that nobody can state with any degree of accuracy what were original designs and intentions of the stone maps, therefore how can anyone state with any accuracy that the stone maps point the way to the LDM? The same can also be stated about the Bilbrey crosses and the Latin heart. Nobody has yet to decipher any one of those item, therefore how can anyone state that the items in question are even related to the LDM? For all anyone may know, the items may very well be for an entirely different purpose and it is upon this that I rest my hypothesis, my friends.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I think that's a pretty fair assessment of things and one in which I happen to share your opinion.

Dear cubfan64;
It's actually the only correct way to look at it, my friend. Someone comes along and stumbles upon some stone carvings. This in and of itself is suspect but to add fuel to the fire, he immediately proclaims that they somehow point the way to the Lost Dutchman's Mine. How could he have possibly known this for a fact if he were not able to make heads or tails of the carvings, my friend? It's a classic example of argumentum ad 1gn0rantiam or appeal to ignorance in English.

It's a common fallacy that an argument is true simply because the premise cannot be proven as false. It stems from the human desire to want to know and explain everything, and whenever we witness something which we cannot readily explain, we strive to find a way to make it fit, no matter what sort of flights of fancy need to be taken in the process.

Someone can state with authority something such as "The grammar is completely wrong and the spell is atrocious" and someone else will come along and try to explain that discrepency away, no matter how illogical the argument becomes. We can take the crystal skulls as another fine example. We know from studying the skulls under microscopes that the tools used to produce the skulls are from the modern era and that the quartz used to produce the skulls was mined in Italy, yet there exists legions of people who try and explain away these facts.

Because we have the ability to discern between historical cultures we can scrutinize a questionable item and ascertain with a fair degree of reliabilty from which era the item was made. This is where the Peralta stones come into the picture my friend. The caricatures are cartoons, and I mean this is the literal sense of the word. Cartoons, as an art, were unknown until the last century. The very first cartoon modern character was Mickey Mouse.

it is obvious that the carvings on the stones are of the same art style and there exists no example of a horse or a witch that was drawn in the mid 1850s which even remotely resembles the ones on the stones. We can look at the dagger, replete with a thumb guard and history tells us that this style of thumb guard was virtually unknown until the mid 1840s and it did not reach popularity until after the Civil War.

In other words, the dagger depicted is in facta  rendering of a Bowie knife, except that Bowie knives in the mid 1800s looked nothing like the modern era Bowies and the Bowie knife in the carving is definitely a modern-era Bowie. Fr. Polzer reviewed the stone carvings and he determined them to be modern renderings. Likewise, scores of other highly reputable historians have done the same and their collective verdicts were all the same.

Yet, in spite of this, there remains those whom prefer to believe that the stone maps represent something more than which they seem to proclaim.
Your friend;
LAMAR

"It stems from the human desire to (((((("not want any one Know"))))) and explain everything, and whenever we witness something which we cannot readily explain, we strive to find a way to "NOT" make it fit," "no matter what sort of flights of fancy WE need to take in the process."         THIS EXACTLY EXPLAINS WHAT YOU ARE DOING OR TRYING TO DO! "ANY TIME THE TRUTH WAS PRESENTED TO YOU YOU WOULD TRY TO SAY IT WAS FALSE"

"THE TRUTH IS YOU CANT MAKE IT FALSE WHEN ITS ABSOLUTELY TRUE"       WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER TRY TO DO THAT? OH I FORGOT YOUR "LEFT MINDED"             I KNOW ITS VERY HARD TO EXCEPT WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN DEFEATED ITS "HUMAN NATURE"    ITS NEVER TO LATE TO COME OVER TO THE RIGHT SIDE! AT LEAST THATS WHAT CACTUS BELIEVES!                

THE FACTS, AND THE TRUTH ,ARE (((("THE STONE MAPS AND THE CROSSESS AND THE SATTELITE PICTURE OF THE LOCATION MATCH UP PERFECTLY")))) THERE IS NO WAY ANY ONE WILL EVER CHANGE THOSE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!! NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY TRY THE TRUTH CANNOT BE CHANGED!!!!!!!!!        IM SORRY BUT SOME THINGS CANNOT BE CHANGED THE TRUTH BEING A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE!             

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A non-disclosure agreement (NDA), also known as a confidentiality agreement, confidential disclosure agreement (CDA), proprietary information agreement (PIA), or secrecy agreement, is a legal contract between at least two parties that outlines confidential material, knowledge, or information that the parties wish to share with one another for certain purposes, but wish to restrict access to by third parties. It is a contract through which the parties agree not to disclose information covered by the agreement. An NDA creates a confidential relationship between the parties to protect any type of confidential and proprietary information or trade secrets. As such, an NDA protects non-public business information.

NDAs are commonly signed when two companies, individuals, or other entities (such as partnerships, societies, etc.) are considering doing business and need to understand the processes used in each others business for the purpose of evaluating the potential business relationship. NDAs can be "mutual", meaning both parties are restricted in their use of the materials provided, or they can restrict the use of material by a single party.

It is also possible for an employee to sign an NDA or NDA-like agreement with an employer. In fact, some employment agreements will include a clause restricting employees' use and dissemination of company-owned "confidential information."

In rare cases, the contract may state that the existence of the NDA itself cannot be disclosed.[1] ((((("THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE EASIEST WAY TO SHUT ME UP"))))) BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU LIKE DOING THINGS THE HARD WAY! YOU GUYS MADE YOUR BEDS SO NOW >>>"LIE"<<< IN THEM GOOD LUCK!

[a sample of the ore from the mine]

Santa Fe New Mexican - as I replied in another thread, there is ONE type of evidence which would prove it beyond doubt TO ME - a sample of the ore from the mine, which can be compared by a geologist with the known examples - if the geologist says it is a match, that is very like fingerprints or DNA, solid proof.  Many people have claimed to have found the Lost Dutchman, yet do not have even a walnut size sample of the ore - and the Superstitions are literally dotted with the old prospect holes and tunnels left by earlier Dutch hunters.  All too often, a modern hunter of the Lost Dutchman finds one of these old holes, and it seems to "fit" the stone maps or a set of clues, and concludes that was the Lost Dutchman mine - when it was nothing but a hole in the ground dug by wishful thinking Dutch hunters who also thought the site matched the "clues" or maps.  .  It is virtually impossible to extract ALL of the gold ore from any mine, so even specimens found on the tailings pile will have bits of ore that will do for the purposes of a comparison.  Do you have a specimen of ore from the site you found, which could be compared by a geologist?  Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FANTASTIC DEFENSE IN THE DAYS BEFORE GOOGLE EARTH SATTELITE IMAGERY AND PROBABLY WAS? BUT IN TODAYS WORLD THAT "THEORY DOES NOT APPLY" AS THE ORE COULD HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED FROM THE AREA! HOWEVER THE SATTELITE IMAGES, AND STONE MAPS AND CROSSES WERE ENOUGH TO TO PROOVE THE EXISTANCE IN IN MY CASE!

So, Santa Fe NM,

You are telling me that the stone maps were made after these guys took a ride in a hot air balloon to place the drawings on the ground? The Nazca lines were straight-right angled and perpendicular lines that were drawn on the ground because they had a mathematical formula made to scale and duplicated it on the ground.

I will tell you a problem with Google Earth that many people fail to realize; the real time earth features are frozen when the satellite photos are taken. If it was taken at two in the afternoon as opposed to 12:00 PM you would not see your priest or number/letters. Now, just wait another three months and you may see an elephant or a giraffe. It is a phenomena similar to cloud reading. Look at the bunny rabbit Billy, no its a dragon Ronnie, uh-uh its a fairy princess Rhonda. By the way when I try to draw the lines around the earth forms that you believe exist I find other shapes and objects that will fit however yours do not! I have worked with two of the best known Scientists who have ever lived and they have worked with satellite this and that most of their lives. Take a look at some of my earlier posts concerning real satellite imagery and learn my friend. Anyone can look at clouds and find any kind of animal they want. Unfortunately you are doing the same. Talk to a professional landsat satellite scientist my friend. That is exactly what I had to do because I suffered from the exact same anomaly you are. Every where I look on the ground from Google I could see amazing things that were actually not there.

Seems to me like you have a problem trying to ram your beliefs down every ones throat. Learn to present your finds and let others decide if you are right or wrong and do not get bent out of shape if they do not agree with you. I really enjoyed this forum as it was constructive and fun. When I see your posts I just want to pass them buy as you are to combative and uncivilized.

We all love constructive criticism here and I hope you can except the same. I do like you and your info regarding E town.

Hey, I am not trying to run you off, for a teacher can learn from his student and vice versa.

I would like to meet you someday and show you the sights and spend some time going into the Soups and hangin out.

Your friend.

EB  

[even the experts cannot argue with]

Santa Fe NM - that is no "fantastic defense" but a simple request for a type of evidence that even the experts cannot argue with. Claims that "all the ore was exhausted" do not fly - you can find bits of ore at ANY old gold mine, regardless of how efficient the miners were. I take it that you do not have any specimen of the ore?  Without the ore, which is a clincher, I have to say that I remain (respectfully) un-convinced of your claims.
Oroblanco

(I HAVE EVERY INTENTION OF BEING YOUR FRIEND AND HANGING OUT.)       AND WHEN IT COMES TO OTHERS VIEW POINT "I ALWAYS LISTEN" I AM VERY OPEN MINDED IF IT MAKES SENSE?         AND BELIEVE ME EVERY THING MAKES PERFECT SENSE IM NOT STUPID AND NIETHER ARE YOU!  I GREW UP ON A RANCH I KNOW LANDSCAPES MY FRIEND AND I NEVER USED GOOGLE EARTH. I CONSIDER MY SELF MORE OF A MOUNTAIN MAN THAN YOU OR ANY ONE HERE. I KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR IN LANDSCAPES I KNOW WHEN SOMETHING IS OUT OF THE ORDINARY. WE CAN GO HORSE BACK RIDING IN THE SUPERS TOGETHER.  ALL I EVER WANTED WAS TO BE YOUR FRIEND!   

SFNM,

Cool. Looking forward to that day. Have a great week.

Your Friend,

EB

"DO I HAVE ORE" THATS A VERY GOOD QUESTION   "I NEVER SAID I DID NOT" AND "I NEVER SAID I DID" WHAT I DID SAY WAS "THE MAPS AND THE SATTELITE PHOTO LINE UP SO PERFECTLY THAT GOOGLE EARTH NASA JIM HATT AND THE WHITE HOUSE CONFIRMED IT"   I SAID THE GOLD MAY HAVE BEEN EXHAUSTED BUT I DID NOT SAY IT WAS EXHAUSTED I GUESS IF IT GOES TO COURT THEN EVERY ONE WILL FIND OUT! "RIGHT NOW" THE GOLD IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRYS AND THE MOST OF YOURS!  IF IT REALLY WORRYS YOU GO TAKE AN ORE SAMPLE YOUR MORE THAN WELCOME.

EB                                 FORSURELY                   TTUL

("John V. Kemm already has it located, registered and all locked up. Maybe I should wait until he fattens up his bank account real nice, before I file Copyright Infringement Litigation against him." Jim Hatt)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I Found The Lost Dutchman Using Google Earth.... - Google Earth Community

HOLA Compadre Santa FE:  You posted -->I CONSIDER MY SELF MORE OF A MOUNTAIN MAN THAN YOU OR ANY ONE HERE.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
a kinda broad statement my friend.  Some of our posters in here can give you a run for your money. I can name several, but will only mention our Oro /ROY
**************************************************************
You also posted ->  ALL I EVER WANTED WAS TO BE YOUR FRIEND!   
~~~~~~~~~~~~
And you are.   what is your problem? We all are friends in here, but they have given me a very bad time in the past. seeking the truth of my posts, just as you also question other's posts. hehee

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

Santa Fe New Mexico,

Not sure if you understand, but typing in all capital letters is the equivalent of shouting.  Are you meaning to shout?


I just have one question about the Peralta Stones matching up with an image on Google Earth.

The stones are supposed to be 100+ years old (so the 1964 story goes).  Which would mean they were made (again supposedly) 1864.  However, in 1887, there was an earthquake - the Bavaspi, I believe, but not positive.  The area changed, the Superstitions were said to move so much that it looked for some seconds like an active volcano. 

That would mean that, as of 1887, the topography was no longer the same - in other words, different than the Stones.  So, how would the current topography on Google Earth match up with something that no longer existed in the same form?

B

Beth,

I don't believe the topography of the Superstitions changed much.......at all.  There were probably some landslides, which would have raised the dust that was seen, but the range was not hit hard.  The proof of that can be seen everywhere:









This is just a small sample, some are much more dramatic.

The Stone Maps themselves, are very accurate.

Take care,

Joe

CJ,

So you think a few rocks being on top of other rocks is proof that nothing changed?

I know you know better than that - all you have to do is go to California.

That particular earthquake changed the Sulphur Springs Valley forever. (Cochise County)  Sulphur Springs was actually gone, disappeared into the earth.

How would you know now about any landslides that happened then?  Witnesses after the quake disagree with you - people who were there at the time.  60-70 seconds of shaking can take quite the toll - and since most reports from then SAY that there was dust and debris and swaying and shaking of the mountains - I tend to believe that it is probably true. (just my opinion).

I've been up in the Superstitions - many a time - there is a lot of evidence of previous landslides.

B

By the way - in was a 7.5 earthquake.

Here is a newspaper headline:


REMARKABLE EFFECT OF AN EARTHQUAKE IN ARIZONA.

SEVERAL MOUNTAIN PEAKS CRUMBLE NEATH THE SHOCK -- OTHERS SUDDENLY DEVELOP INTO BLAZING VOLCANOES -- MUCH DAMAGE TO PROPERTY.

Hi Beth,
 
Like any good Dutch Hunter, I looked into the Bavaspi earthquake......years ago.  Newspaper articles of that era tended to get a little flowery and often exaggerated.
 
I have no doubt that the earthquake did damage to the mountains, as well as the area between the Superstitions and Bavaspi.  That being said, I don't believe it appreciably changed the topography of the range.  Cliff faces probably calved off in many cases, but that would not be considered a major change to the mountains.
 
I believe any earthquake sever enough to change the topography of the Superstition Mountains, would shake most of the balanced rocks to the ground.
 
Here is what Tom Kollenborn wrote about the event:
 
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Bavaspi%20Earthquake.pdf

Here are other articles from the Internet:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/events/1887_05_03.php

http://www.azgs.az.gov/Hazards_ocr/...Earthquake-%20Not%20Our%20Fault.pdf

The intensity level was considered "Very light" to "Light" in the area of the Superstitions.  Those who were there, might have felt otherwise.

http://tlacaelel.igeofcu.unam.mx/~c...bres/Biblio_Sismocion/Sonora_v5.pdf
 
There are many, many places in the Superstitions where good sized slides have taken place over the centuries.  The overall topography has remained unchanged.
 
As I was not there, I could be totally wrong.
 
Take care,
 
Joe

Of course, I have read those reports.

The headline is from a newspaper during the time it happened.  I wish I could post it, but I cannot, because it is from a paid newspaper archive, and it doesn't "save".

But, having had much experience walking in the Supers, (as you, I'm sure) there are literally hundreds of places where there have been landslides - most of which I've just sat on my butt and let it "slide" me down the hill, along with debris - and there are usually huge boulders at the bottom - which came off the top.

In many, many reports, it states that the area in the Supers has changed since the days of Waltz.  Since I'm old, but not that old, I cannot testify to when, or if - or how much - it might have changed.

Of course - just as an aside - do you think we were officially checking changes in the Supers during those days???  Or, is the USGS report an after-event (way after) information?  I just don't think that the USGS (started in 1879) had the time to map all those mountains AND document any changes in the mountains in 8 years, so most of their information is peripheral.

But, like you - I could be wrong 

B

Beth,

"By the way - in was a 7.5 earthquake."

That was at the epicenter, which was around 250 miles from Weaver's Needle.  Like you, I have read all about that earthquake, trying to figure out if it had much effect on the Superstitions.  My conclusion was.......not much at all.  Don't believe it changed a single map, although better map making did make some changes.

Take care,

Joe

[an unarmed ladder has been kicking the crap out of me lately!]

Santa Fe NM wrote

"RIGHT NOW" THE GOLD IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRYS AND THE MOST OF YOURS!  IF IT REALLY WORRYS YOU GO TAKE AN ORE SAMPLE YOUR MORE THAN WELCOME.

Ah well, gold is not something I worry about, and I only asked about the ore because this is the one type of evidence that will settle the case FOR ME.  I am sure there are plenty of folks who are or will be convinced just on the evidence you have. As for going there to get a sample, that is not too handy at the moment, but if Mrs O and I should happen to be there at some date in the future, I will sure take a look.

Santa Fe NM also wrote

ALL I EVER WANTED WAS TO BE YOUR FRIEND!   

You already are amigo, just because we may disagree on the LDM or any subject does not make us stop being friends.  We are bound to have differences, many of them, heck I bet we probably like different flavors of ice cream - our differences make our conversations much more interesting.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Some of our posters in here can give you a run for your money. I can name several, but will only mention our Oro /ROY

ME?  Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I ain't so tough - heck an unarmed ladder has been kicking the crap out of me lately!    My money is on YOU, though we could point to at least a half dozen others (Cactusjumper, Cubfan, Djui, etc).   


your friend in "Dakota Territory" 
Oroblanco
 

Hi Group,

Treasure hunting is changing in America my friends. Check out this History Channel clip: http://www.history.com/video.do?name=americanhistory The history editors pics: American History "Jesse James Hidden Treasure". Another History Channel show was broadcast on the 9th and/or 10th of this month titled "Knights of the Golden Circle" featuring Ron Pastore. Jesse James was one among the famous alleged members of ‘Knights of the Golden Circle’ (KGC) a secret society, founded with the purpose to promote the Southern United States’ interests. The other important members were Lambdin P. Milligan, Franklin Pierce and John Wilkes Booth.

What Ron Pastore, a local historian is trying to prove in his show is that Bill Kurtis the host of 1995 documentary on James, was wrong about the DNA evidence about the fake death of James. Ron rather strongly believes that James did fake his death, cheated and spent the rest of his life away from the place, in southeast Kansas. According to him the person shot in 1882 at St. Joseph Mo was Robert Ford, not Jesse James.

He offers quite new theories about the whole situation and states that neither James died in the mysterious shootouts nor he let go of the robbed money by shifting it to a safe custody. The money in question was robbed in 1864 near Placerville from two stagecoaches. Ron believes that James utilized the same to aid a forebear of the Ku Klux Klan exploits of the Knights of the Golden Circle.

EB

The documentary is definitely a show of ‘hard-work’ and it reveals many ‘unattended issues’ previously.
 

Just a point here - Ron Pastore was/is involved in BOTH documentaries you named - and a few others.  Due to this fact, and his beliefs, you are bound to hear the very same type of information and theories.

B

Dear Ellie Baba;
My friend, ol' Jesse James did not fake his death, nor was he a member of an elite society Southern society comprised of Southern gentlemen. There is no conspiracy. The plain simple truth of the matter was that Jesse and Frank James were bank robbers, plain and simple. They were not heros not were they the modern-day version of Robin Hood. They stole and instead of re-distributing the wealth, they spent it. They frittered it away because that's the sort of men that they were. They did not rob a bank with any thought of re-investing the ill-gotten gains or even of caching a portion of it, they just blew it. Criminals tend to do this sort of thing, in case no one has noticed recently.

And that's exactly what Jesse and Frank James were, my friends. They were hardened criminals and they were stone cold killers. This is why they had half of the US looking for them. No matter how much *research* a person does, and no matter no many fanciful *theories* they propose, the fact of the matter is that Jesse and Frank James were criminals. We know this from the trail of blood and tears that they left in their wake. They didn't care about the people who's lives they ended, they cared about one thing, and one thing only. Robbery. They killed and they robbed and when it was all over and done with, they didn't show a shred of remorse and the citizens of the USA didn't show any remorse towards them in return.

People can dig up graves and attempt to extract all the DNA they want to, but the facts of the matter are that Jesse James was shot and killed. Bob Ford snuck up on him and shot Jesse in the back of the head. Jesse didn't have a chance and it for sure wasn't a fair fight, but then again Jesse James never offered any of his victims a fair fight either, so he got exactly what he gave. He was killed, Bob Ford got stiffed on the reward and that was the end of the story for Jesse James. Jesse James'  mitochondrial DNA was extracted in 1995 , compared to his ancestoral kin and it matched.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I take it you are not interested in seeing the copies of the Peralta mining documents.  I went to some trouble to get them and make some copies.  As I recall, it's what you asked for.  I don't really need the practice, so let's not play this game again.

Take care,

Joe

Dear cactusjumper
As the matter of fact I am looking at them as I am writing this. They certainly look authentic but this is not saying a lot at this time. Offhandedly I would say that perhaps there was a Peralta, or rather, or at the very least, someone who used the surname Peralta, in the Arizona territory during the time in question. Right now I am attempting to verify this particular Peralta's existence in Mexico my friend. Please be a bit patient and thank you so very much for providing the documents. It's intriquing, to say the least!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear cactusjumper
By the way I sent you two emails upon reciept of the document scans. From your lack of reply I am assuming that you did not recieve either reply, therefore I shall now take the oppurtunity to thank you publicly and profoundly! You have my sincere gratitude for the time and trouble which you've endured for the sake of historical accuracy and I applaud your efforts!
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

No need to apologize as I understand, completely, how our lives can get in the way of our hobbies.  If you are searching in Mexico, I would suggest that you look for Blas Peralta in Jamaica, Mexico.  I believe, if you follow that line of research, you will find our Arizona Peralta's.  I also believe the injection of Arizpe into the Peralta/Waltz story has led to many a dead end.  It's Jamaica man!

Take care,

Joe

Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets?  Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season.  Does that sound like the Superstitions to you?  I hope not.

Mr. Fork,

"Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets?  Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season.  Does that sound like the Superstitions to you?  I hope not."

Maybe......Is there some evidence to support that opinion?  It's just as possible that the mines are somewhere behind where they found the tablets.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe, always remember  the early  xplorers and miners followed the water ways.. There was much more water in those days.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I realize that.  It's also true that there was water to the south, as well as to the north.

Take care,

Joe

EB,When the Presidents signed these orders, they were delegateing ten"s of thousands of acres to be protected. To say they were doing this to protect any one treasure site, a "possible" mere spect on the landscape, defies common sense. Not to say our government does not display this trait often, I surely don"t believe its the case in your statement, EB. Proof as they say is in the pudding, I do disagree with a lot of your beliefs/conections,especially where the Dutchman is concerned being a "sentinal", however I can"t prove you wrong, but I haven"t seen that you have proved the case either. Your posts make a good read and I thank you for that..gd

I'm not trying to get off the subject here but I do know a few things from personal experience. When i was 15 years old, around 1998, a few friends and myself were riding 4-wheelers in a state park. (Chief Logan State Park, located in Logan County WV). We were riding a few trails in the middle of the summer and decided it would be more fun to ride up one of the mountains and across the ridges. I was in the lead and had come to the top of a smaller mountain, and had to ride down the slope and then up another slope. When i rode down the slope, I rode over something that was covered and fell through the covering. My 4-wheeler's front end smacked straight into the ground and I flipped over it. When i got up and my 2 friends came down to my rescue, I looked over at what I had just uncovered and was just pointing my finger. There was a steel door that was in the mountain with a door way, the covering was some sort of very thick netting that had been covered with leaves and sticks and false little trees. I went up to the door and of course tried to open it but it wouldn't budge, seemed to be about 4 or 5 big dead bolt locks on it. What i remember the most about the door was a small symbol at the top of the door that looked like an A and V that was intersecting, and something that was in the middle that i couldn't make out. About 5 minutes after i crashed, we heard at least 2 helicopters overhead, and about 5 more minutes there were about 7 4-wheelers coming up the mountain to where we were. There was 1 State park ranger, i think about 4 State troopers and definately 2 guys dressed in black suits (FBI, SS, CIA, who knows, they didn't even speak to us). One of the State troopers took our information and told us that we needed to get the hell out of the park and said that if we were ever seen riding in the park again we would be arrested and thrown in jail, and if we ever mentioned anything about this that they would know and they would come get us. I'm pretty sure that they knew we were just kids and just wanted to scare us, and didn't want this place found.
I didn't have internet back in those days, but a few weeks later i found out what the symbol was (Mason) after digging through library books for hours. Needless to say, after reading about the Mason's for probably a month or so, I was a pretty scared little 15 year old. I ddin't even tell my father about it until i was about 19 i think.

Dear Ellie Baba;
My friend, ol' Jesse James did not fake his death, nor was he a member of an elite society Southern society comprised of Southern gentlemen. There is no conspiracy. The plain simple truth of the matter was that Jesse and Frank James were bank robbers, plain and simple. They were not heros not were they the modern-day version of Robin Hood. They stole and instead of re-distributing the wealth, they spent it. They frittered it away because that's the sort of men that they were. They did not rob a bank with any thought of re-investing the ill-gotten gains or even of caching a portion of it, they just blew it. Criminals tend to do this sort of thing, in case no one has noticed recently.

And that's exactly what Jesse and Frank James were, my friends. They were hardened criminals and they were stone cold killers. This is why they had half of the US looking for them. No matter how much *research* a person does, and no matter no many fanciful *theories* they propose, the fact of the matter is that Jesse and Frank James were criminals. We know this from the trail of blood and tears that they left in their wake. They didn't care about the people who's lives they ended, they cared about one thing, and one thing only. Robbery. They killed and they robbed and when it was all over and done with, they didn't show a shred of remorse and the citizens of the USA didn't show any remorse towards them in return.

People can dig up graves and attempt to extract all the DNA they want to, but the facts of the matter are that Jesse James was shot and killed. Bob Ford snuck up on him and shot Jesse in the back of the head. Jesse didn't have a chance and it for sure wasn't a fair fight, but then again Jesse James never offered any of his victims a fair fight either, so he got exactly what he gave. He was killed, Bob Ford got stiffed on the reward and that was the end of the story for Jesse James. Jesse James'  mitochondrial DNA was extracted in 1995 , compared to his ancestoral kin and it matched.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I'm sorry that you seem so deeply passionate that Jesse James was such a piece and was shot in the back of the head as believed. My only question to the whole entire story is this. Your Ford boys, supposidly conspired with Govenor Thomas T. Crittenden (who by many accounts along with John Newman Edwards who was a newspaper editor that glorified JJ, were both part of the KGC) to assassinate Jesse James. However, you would have me believe that this same Govenor stood by and signed Frank James' pardon papers? When Frank was involved in almost every robbery and murder that Jesse was involved in? You want me to believe that one dies while the other gets to live out is life as a farmer? Get real, Jesse James never took his guns off in front of any of the James-Younger gang members. He would have never took them off in front of these two guys.

I'm not trying to get off the subject here but I do know a few things from personal experience. When i was 15 years old, around 1998, a few friends and myself were riding 4-wheelers in a state park. (Chief Logan State Park, located in Logan County WV). We were riding a few trails in the middle of the summer and decided it would be more fun to ride up one of the mountains and across the ridges. I was in the lead and had come to the top of a smaller mountain, and had to ride down the slope and then up another slope. When i rode down the slope, I rode over something that was covered and fell through the covering. My 4-wheeler's front end smacked straight into the ground and I flipped over it. When i got up and my 2 friends came down to my rescue, I looked over at what I had just uncovered and was just pointing my finger. There was a steel door that was in the mountain with a door way, the covering was some sort of very thick netting that had been covered with leaves and sticks and false little trees. I went up to the door and of course tried to open it but it wouldn't budge, seemed to be about 4 or 5 big dead bolt locks on it. What i remember the most about the door was a small symbol at the top of the door that looked like an A and V that was intersecting, and something that was in the middle that i couldn't make out. About 5 minutes after i crashed, we heard at least 2 helicopters overhead, and about 5 more minutes there were about 7 4-wheelers coming up the mountain to where we were. There was 1 State park ranger, i think about 4 State troopers and definately 2 guys dressed in black suits (FBI, SS, CIA, who knows, they didn't even speak to us). One of the State troopers took our information and told us that we needed to get the hell out of the park and said that if we were ever seen riding in the park again we would be arrested and thrown in jail, and if we ever mentioned anything about this that they would know and they would come get us. I'm pretty sure that they knew we were just kids and just wanted to scare us, and didn't want this place found.
I didn't have internet back in those days, but a few weeks later i found out what the symbol was (Mason) after digging through library books for hours. Needless to say, after reading about the Mason's for probably a month or so, I was a pretty scared little 15 year old. I ddin't even tell my father about it until i was about 19 i think.

Nice Story,  Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer? 

Dear truthsadvocate;
The facts of the matter are these:
Frank and Jesse James were bank robbers. Period. They DID rob banks and they not only never denied this fact, they often boasted about it. Also, Frank and Jesse James were cold-blooded murderers. Again, they often boasted about this as well.

On a personal note, you may believe whatever you wish, however the facts of the case cannot be altered, downplayed or eliminated because they are the facts. If you wish to place upon a pedestal a couple of common thugs  in light of the facts, then by all means, be my guest.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I by no means want to put Jesse and Frank James on a pedestal as you put it. I just see many inconsistencies in a lot of the information that know to have happened back then. Even the Account given by Robert Ford did not match up with what was found by the coroner. History has been known to be wrong, on many things. And personally I do not believe that Jesse James would have taken off his guns when he was notorious for never taking them off.

Nice Story,  Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer? 
[/quote]

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.

Oh and one other thing. I have never heard of any buried treasures in WV, but I have in VA. I do recall a couple local legends of gold mines being somewhere in the area.

Nice Story,  Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer? 

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.
[/quote]

Wonderful, Might be good to start a different thread. 

Mr. Fork,

"Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets?  Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season.  Does that sound like the Superstitions to you?  I hope not."

Maybe......Is there some evidence to support that opinion?  It's just as possible that the mines are somewhere behind where they found the tablets.

Joe Ribaudo

Isn't that area above Globe the first place to look? Lots of outcrops over a wide area;  iron and quartz to the Northeast banking the river.  Pasture to the North, Gold, grass, game and water. 

Is the tablet heart impression most similar to the mint mark on a ring?  Oz. per ton?

Mr. Fork,

Seems obvious.  Had any luck?

Joe Ribaudo

Many years have passed since I first read the stories of Peralta legends out of Arizona.  I do remember that rose quartz was the key sign in identifying their main dig.  Visible gold is rare;  visible gold in rose quartz is even more so.  Gold wire is rare;  gold wire in rose quartz is far more.  The funnel pit was saturated with rice size pellets of broken wire gold in a matrix of rose quartz.  Rose quartz is the key here if you are inclined to follow the float left behind by the river that once ground down the original outcrop, forming deposits for miles downstream.  Waltz said that "No miner would find my mine" so it would have to be ahead of the float.  Find the placer veins known to present day men, and go up ahead from there.  God only knows how ancient this outcrop is and though the river system has changed again and again, it still runs downhill.  I suspect a tide pool a mile wide with the lode sticking up out of it as the river carved out a new path for the ore to fine it's next destinations.  I agree;  it sucks that the darn thing is buried and landscaped but people make mistakes and time reveals all things.

Dear Oroblanco;
Actually, the idea of Papal infallibility goes back to the first centuries of the Christian Church, however it was never fully defined until the Vatican I Council in which it was given Solemn and Formal Definition. The first instance of Papal infallibilty was in 449 AD when Pope Leo I wrote The Tome To Flavian which defined the two natures of Jesus Christ. Two years later, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Bishops exclaimed "This is the faith of the fathers! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!"

The issue of Papal infallibilty was first raised by Theodore Abū Qurrah, a Christian Arab, during the 9th century, however was not until the Middle Ages that the concept of Papal infallibilty was serious discussed by Catholic theologians, some of which included the famed St. Thomas of Aquinas and John Peter Olivi.

The very first time that Papal infallibility was defined was in 1330 AD by +Bishop Terreni and His definition of the use of Papal infallibilty is remarkably similiar to the solemn definition outlined at the Vatican I Council. To sum up what the correct definition of Papal infallibilty is, it can be accurately stated that:

"It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare."
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie

 

Has the "Sims Ely's son" story (where he talks about Adolph Ruth's trip to the Supers and had a map in a metal box-supposedly the Mexican Peralta map and some other directions to the mine) ever been considered as having validity? (considering that a metal box WAS found at his campsite) If so, then it would, at the very least, a starting point to thinking that the Spanish DID make maps, rather than stones.

B

Dear Oroblanco;
Actually, the idea of Papal infallibility goes back to the first centuries of the Christian Church, however it was never fully defined until the Vatican I Council in which it was given Solemn and Formal Definition. The first instance of Papal infallibilty was in 449 AD when Pope Leo I wrote The Tome To Flavian which defined the two natures of Jesus Christ. Two years later, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Bishops exclaimed "This is the faith of the fathers! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!"

The issue of Papal infallibilty was first raised by Theodore Abū Qurrah, a Christian Arab, during the 9th century, however was not until the Middle Ages that the concept of Papal infallibilty was serious discussed by Catholic theologians, some of which included the famed St. Thomas of Aquinas and John Peter Olivi.

The very first time that Papal infallibility was defined was in 1330 AD by +Bishop Terreni and His definition of the use of Papal infallibilty is remarkably similiar to the solemn definition outlined at the Vatican I Council. To sum up what the correct definition of Papal infallibilty is, it can be accurately stated that:

"It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare."
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie

 

Hey Ritchie,

I think this quote from my website will answer your question. In a word...yes. King Charles III invited certain guests into private audience with him, and explained his reasoning. One was the Marquis d'Ossun. This is what he said about his audience:

He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be predjudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, openeed his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters)...............................

Best-Mike

[if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today]

Hey Mike,

Thank you for the reply. My question to Lamar was if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today? The quote you provided is out of context without the source identified other than your website, which I don't think I have seen.  If that quote came from records of the expulsion, then obviously they are not sealed today and maybe never were. Where did that quote come from?

Could you post a link to your website so I can read the whole thing?

I am still hoping for Lamar to reply.

Ritchie

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET Ritchie!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Ritchie! 

The expulsion order of King Charles (1767) does not explain the reasons, saying he reserves the reasons in his Royal mind.  Likewise the Dominus ac Redemptor of Pope Benedict XIV (1773) also does not list all of the reasons for the suppression of the Order, just "for good reasons".  The king of Spain took his reasons to the grave, never revealing them.  It is rather mysterious that there were a string of expulsions of the Jesuits, from the Portuguese dominions, then the French dominions, then Spanish, etc.  We may never know the truth behind this period of history. 
Oroblanco

Dear Ritchie;
You asked me:
Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie


It's been my experience that there exists very few *sealed* documents in regards to anything with is housed in the Vatican archives or elsewhere within the Roman Catholic church, my friend. If you are referring to the Vatican Secret Archives, then I feel I should tell you now that the title "Vatican Secret Archives" is a direct, and very literal, translation of the official Latin title, which is Archivum Secretum Vaticanum. In this particular case, the word "Secretum" means "Private" or "Restricted" as in "The Pope's Personal Archives", which is what the Vatican Secret Archives are. They are not a part of the Roman Curia, and they are in no way secret, and how could they be if everyone knows about them?

The access to the Vatican Secret Archives is highly restricted and there is a very good reason for this to be so. First, the archives are privately owned and maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, and as such they are not a public library. Next, the Vatican Secret Archives houses the largest collection of documents pretaining to Christianity in the Middle, Near and Far East, and Europe, in existence, along with documents of a scholarly nature and as such, they are priceless. Next, the Vatican Secret Archives actually has very few personel attached to it, as there is a shortage of ordained clergy throughout the Church and virtually all ordained members are being assigned to parish duties. This makes it very difficult to gain access into the archives as there are not enough clergy to assist everyone. In short, there are no *sealed documents* housed within the Vatican Secret Archives, my friend, nor has there ever been.

Now, the Roman Curia, which is the administrative branch of the Vatican, has within it an Office titled the Apostolic Penitentiaria, or the Apostolic Penitentiary in English, and that Office maintains it's own archives and THOSE documents are sealed by the confessional for eternity. The reason why all documents housed in the Apostolic Penetentiary are sealed in because they deal with confessions and pennances, excommunication and absolutions, and indulgences. The Holy office of the Apostolic Penitentiary acts as the Confessor in the Confessor-Penitent role of the Church and the Office is primarily viewed as an Office of Mercy. I have heard it stated that not even the sitting Pope is permitted to view the archives of the Apostolic Penetentiary, however I do not know whether this is true or not, but it would seem to be so, owing to the sacred nature of the Seal of the Confessional.

The Roman Catholic Church takes the Seal of the Confessional very seriously and as such the Vatican goes to great lengths to ensure that the identities of Her penitents remains a closely guarded secret. The Apostolic Penitentiary does not get involved in matters of organizations within the Church, such as the Jesuits or other Orders. Rather, the Apostolic Penitentiary devotes it's time to individual members of the Church, therefore any sins which the Jesuits may have committed would have needed to been addressed on case by case basis. We know this did not occur as there were no excommunications incurred before, during, or after the expulsion of the Jesuits, therefore the Apostolic Penitentiary would have not had reason to get involved and if there was no involvement, then no records of the Jesuits expulsion would exist in the Archives of the Apostolic Penitentiary.

Now, this leaves only one other possibility, my friend. The records of the Jesuits activities in the colonies may have been burned or otherwise destroyed, not by the Jesuits themselves,  but by some of the other *overzealous* missionary types who succeeded them. There exists documentation to the effect that many Dominican missionary groups burnt the archives of the Jesuits which were left behind when the Jesuits were expelled and to a much lesser degree, the Franciscans did this as well. In closing, perhaps at one time or other there did exist evidence of Jesuit mining activities in the New World, but if it did exist, unfortunately it has long since been destroyed.

To answer your question in brief, no, there are no sealed documents regarding the Jesuit expulsion and later suppression my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote:
The expulsion order of King Charles (1767) does not explain the reasons, saying he reserves the reasons in his Royal mind.  Likewise the Dominus ac Redemptor of Pope Benedict XIV (1773) also does not list all of the reasons for the suppression of the Order, just "for good reasons".  The king of Spain took his reasons to the grave, never revealing them.  It is rather mysterious that there were a string of expulsions of the Jesuits, from the Portuguese dominions, then the French dominions, then Spanish, etc.  We may never know the truth behind this period of history. 
Oroblanco

No, my friend, we will NEVER know the truth behind the expulsion of the Jesuits, yet we CAN surmise that the reasons were political instead of criminal or sinful. From the historical documentation we can plainly read that the Jesuits were a contemporary Order amidst some some very traditional types. They were also quite radical, for the times, of protecting and caring for the persons under their charge, believing that all Catholics were granted the same rights and privledges. In fact, they were the first whom thought of equal rights. Not only did they think of it, they also practiced it and it was this rather cavalier attitude towards the European colonists which got them into trouble in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR

[the reasons were political instead of criminal or sinful]

Lamar wrote

No, my friend, we will NEVER know the truth behind the expulsion of the Jesuits, yet we CAN surmise that the reasons were political instead of criminal or sinful.

Bingo! Give that man a cigar!    Of course in the eyes of monarchical government, some of the Jesuits activities would be viewed as criminal, and in the eyes of other Orders, some commercial activities might well have been viewed as "sinful", even if wholly justifiable for the sake of keeping the missions afloat.

Lamar also wrote

The records of the Jesuits activities in the colonies may have been burned or otherwise destroyed, not by the Jesuits themselves,  but by some of the other *overzealous* missionary types who succeeded them. There exists documentation to the effect that many Dominican missionary groups burnt the archives of the Jesuits which were left behind when the Jesuits were expelled and to a much lesser degree, the Franciscans did this as well. In closing, perhaps at one time or other there did exist evidence of Jesuit mining activities in the New World, but if it did exist, unfortunately it has long since been destroyed.

Some of the Jesuit records for Sonora/southern Arizona were "lost" due to Franciscan monks literally selling the ancient documents as tourist souvenirs.  <A dollar a page.> While this may be reprehensible for the loss of historical records it caused, the missions at the time (late 19th, early 20th centuries) were suffering for lack of funds and few people had much interest in preserving historic documents from the frontier period.  A few pages of Jesuit documents have turned up in antique fairs, but a great many are lost.  Especially last wills and testaments.......
Oroblanco

[if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today]

Hey Mike,

Thank you for the reply. My question to Lamar was if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today? The quote you provided is out of context without the source identified other than your website, which I don't think I have seen.  If that quote came from records of the expulsion, then obviously they are not sealed today and maybe never were. Where did that quote come from?

Could you post a link to your website so I can read the whole thing?

I am still hoping for Lamar to reply.

Ritchie

My website is http://www.1oro1.com

The quote is easily researchable.

There were several letters that were written regarding many peoples' private audiences with King Charles III. Long story short, Charles had been receiving advice from a lot of people who had serious problems with the Jesuits, and were not above making up things to make them look bad. During the Spanish Rebellions of 1766, several Jesuits were caught in the streets giving money to help foment the riots.  For Charles, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Best-Mike

I posted the edict on the other site - the original document.


B

They were treated like any other capitol adventure that stood in the way of some new found corruption on the horizon.  The right wing at a loss.  They were a different brand of Jesus.

Nice Story,  Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer? 

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.

Interesting account.  I can imagine your surprise when the "troops" arrived.  I also am interested if it is possible for you to locate the place with a little better accuracy.  I found the Hatfield-McCoy Trail System maps but none seem to tie into the Chief Logan State Park trails. 

Could you be more specific?  Looking forward to your post.

Bill

Okay. For anyone interested, I have put up the entire Peralta Stone / Stone Maps Story on my website. Here is the link:

http://1oro1.com/Hidden%20Caches/stonemaps.html

I have just gotten so tired of retyping the same information over and over every time somebody posts some inaccurate crap, I loaded a page with all the basic information anyone would need to speak intelligently about the subject.

I ask anyone who wishes to enter into a discussion about the Stone Maps please read the entire page. What is written is very accurate and the result of much research and some great assistance from some long time Dutch Hunters.

Best-Mike

Mike, nice web page/ Just curious about the original stones on the bumper,
do you happen to know the size and approximate weight . Also where did get your smaller copies.  What do you think the holes in the stone represent/thanks in advance.