KGC clues found with John Murrell, put on your thinking caps!!!!!

OK gentleman I had heard a local legend about a confederate wagon train here in the neutral zone about ten years ago. At that time I figured the old man was pulling my leg and did not pay him any attention. In my hunting trips I later found a pair of twin springs that looked like a great place to hide out if a man was on the run. I recently read Bob B. book and told my girlfriend and she wanted to look at the site. We had a wonderful picnic and was getting ready to leave when we found the first beech tree that was marked. Many of the markings are graffiti but the older ones are not. On our first trip our pictures did not show up so we went down there with a better camera and chalk a week later. After using a wire brush many more markings showed up and she took great pictures. the next week I thought I knew where to dig and after finding a layer of ironore I decided that the ground was undisturbed. I went back to the first tree and sighted along the heart arrow and marked off 19 yards. My 7 year old daughter was having fun helping dad look for treasure and held the tape for me. thats when I found the J tree and Murrells name there. I believe both Jesse and Murrell used this spot to hide. We went back last Sunday with My Dad and took a second set of pics. The pictures from her camera are larger than the 196 KB so I have tried to put in a hyper link. I hope this works. http://pictures.aol.com/ap/myAlbums.do?albumId=39485.1188.1162785587346.1 The second to last picture has a strange symbol under murrells name that I am sure means something. The picture of the snake is laying eggs but his head did not show up in the pic. There are two 19's on two trees both are underlined. Vara signs? There is also a misspelled word with a curious yj combination letter. I have read volumes of books over the last month and on of the books about Jesse mentions this spot by name after reading that I could not sleep for hours. Man this mystery is fun. Any insight from anyone would be appreciated as this mystery is keeping me up at night. Thanks Roger

Yo!  Rebel here:     "neutral zone" is just another word for "free state" in the Civil War... neither North OR South... Union OR Confederacy... etc. etc. I think Missouri was one... AND MANY ex-Rebels became the OUTLAWS of the old wild west... burying treasure/loot "here & there... EVERYWHERE..."   lol  and YES! Jesse was one of 'em... ;)

Why not post the pictures here?

Maybe I should have make the neutral zone definition a little clearer. There was a time when the boundary between Texas and Louisiana was disputed. The French claimed several miles west of the Sabine river and the Spanish claimed several miles east of the River. When the U.S. bought the Louisiana Purchase from France we inherited the dispute. When Texas gained Independence the border was still in dispute. It seems that Lawmen from both states would shoot at each other from time to time. In order to keep someone from getting killed lawmen from both sides were told to stayed away from each other. The disputed land now became lawless and the perfect place to hide if you needed to. Do a search for neutral zone Louisiana and you will have plenty of reading. I would have liked to have posted the pictures here but the forum said they were to big so I did the next best thing. I did not realise that when I uploaded them they went in reverse order.
   I went back there Sunday and found more carvings but left my camera. I also found a old shovel with the handle completely gone. I guess I am not the only one who has looked at the spot. This weekend I plan to go back to the tree with the J on it and go beyond it like the clue indicated. It sounds simple but is worth a try. Wish me luck Roger

The treasure I am looking for was from the New Orleans mint. The bankers and the mint moved all of their gold and the armory was moved as well before the city was captured. The local legend is that the wagon train was seen Trying to cross the river by ferry but couldn't because it was swollen. It was next seen on a back road about .75 miles from where I am hunting. The wagon train was not seen anywhere else. I got this story from a local man who is Known for his stretchers so I went to a second man whose family were some of the original settlers of the area and he did hear the story but couldn't give any more information. I am not trying to make any connection between Murrell and the KGC. I simply think the place is such that both could have used it as a hideout at different times. Murrell before the war and the KGC during and after. Jesse was here according to the local history section at our library. The historian at the battle park thinks he may have lived for a short time in Pleasant Hill La. Also I heard from a very unreliable source that the bank in that town was robbed by him. I will check that lead out as well. I will see if I can crop some of the pictures and get them posted here. I believe you will like the pics and your insight may be very useful. Thanks Roger

Yo!  Rebel here:  THAT is a right interesting "post", BECAUSE, the Beale Treasure here in Bedford County, Va. is rumored to be part of the "Mint from New Orleans..." and the "story" is actually connected to Rebels, Spies, and the Civil War... DANG!     Hmmmmm...  ;)

Hello Rebel. I ordered a book on the Beale codes a week ago and am still waiting for it to arrive. Some of the nonsense words that are carved in to the trees could be connected with Beale. If you can get to the link in my post you can see the date Oct, 12, 1720 carved on of the trees. The date carved there cant be a real date because it would have to be carved by Spanish and they transpose day and month. Europeans still do that today. I have tried date ciphers but not had any luck. I am hoping the Beale book I ordered may give me some insight.

the J symbol is often used to mean turnabout, or return the way you came {as facing the carving......i do hope you don't think beale was alive in 1720...the beale code that was broken supposedly being coded to a document that was written after 1750, don't think it will help much.......just a thought.,,,,,,,,...g

Yo!  Rebel here:     Well... this is VERY interesting... The Beale Treasure story was written in 1885 or thereabout... based on the trip out West by T.J. Beale & Associates... TWO TIMES... & burying BIG treasure(s) in the mountains above/around Montvale, Va. in Bedford County, Va. (near Roanoke... formerly known as Big Lick...) in 1819 AND 1822 or thereabout... IF, it is only a "cover-story" for the CSA Treasury (with stuff from the MINT in New Orleans, guarded by C.S. MARINES...).  WOW!  REBEL MARINES !!! who CoULD have sailed the stuff on the "high seas"... 

The link must take me to the same place as SWR mentioned asking for name and password.

Hope you can post the pics!

Eagerly awaiting....
Cavers5

Yo!  Rebel here:     I've been thinking... MAYBE Beale of the Beale Codes/Treasure was REALLY John Murrell (bandit)... Beale was stated to be swarthy... handsome fellow; could he have been a Melungeon or Redbone from New Orleans?   Murrell had his "Mystic Clan"... Beale had his "associates"... there is a "Masonic connection" here... 'cause MOST FreeMasons CAN keep secrets... HMMMM... SO !  the story plot thickens... is Mark Twain here?  lol...  THEN... there is a "mystery man" who lived alone above Monvale, Va.   "BUCK" W.T. Wright... 

Thanks for the encouragement. I tried to crop the pics myself couldn't, so my girlfriend said she will try to crop the pictures so I can post them here. I had not heard that the J was a turn around sign. But it was one of the most significant signs on what I call the Jesse tree. The first tree we found had a Heart shaped arrow on it with a 19 and 2 vara signs on the other side. I followed the arrow to the Jesse tree and did a fair amount of detecting. I wonder now if the J on the tree is telling me to go back and measure 19 double paces along the same line. If it could only be so simple. wish me luck and I will get the pics here asap. Roger

I have also found the "J" to mean to reverse or mirror. 

Also, keep in mind that if this is KGC, any distance measurements will most likely not be varas or paces.  They were very precise in the bearings and distance information they gave and in the actual corresponding field layout.  In my experience, they have used feet, rods, and chains.  Everything was accurately surveyed...no varas or paces.

If you would like me to resize or crop your pictures, feel free to email them to me.  My hotmail account has plenty of space and I can edit them how you want and send them right back to you to post.

Good luck,
Boattow

Thanks for the offer to resize the pics Boattoa. I sent them to you and if you can post them here without sending them back feel free. I hope I sent you the picture of the snake laying eggs because it may be a map. I also sent a picture that I would like others to tell me what they think it is. I know what I think it is but I want others to give their first impression. As far as a mirror image meaning I will look at my snake map and try. The 19 on the two trees may mean South. IF I go back to the first tree and go opposite the arrow it will put just about the middle of the twin springs but that would be West. The ML on the first tree could be 1050 in Roman Numbers but which direction, South maybe? I cant wait till this weekend. Roger

Hi Magnsdad,
I just sent you the pictures back and then saw your post to go ahead and attach your pictures.  I'll go ahead and do that now.  They look awesome.  Keep going!  There is no doubt they are KGC.  I have many, in fact most of the same symbols on trees and I'm not in the same state.  M.L. is also on one of my trees written/carved the same way.  They are not roman numerals here.
Thanks,
Boattow

BTW, I don't believe the "J" to be a reverse symbol in this case...
Good luck,
Boattow

Thanks Boattow. Did you see the combination letter yj in the word benoyd? Also did you notice Murrels name was larger in the middle than the ends? Does the broken heart above the 19 indicate Danger? I must have missed the snake I will send it to you and if you don't mind please post it too. The date 1720 has got to mean something besides a date. I don't believe the tree to be 300 years old. If you Know what the ML is please tell me. Still I appreciate the help you have given me. Roger

One more thing. The funny symbol under Murrells name. The closest thing I can find is the Greek letter Phi. Is has to do with a math formula that is called get this the Golden mean. Any other Ideas?

Yo!  Rebel here:       THANK for posting "pics"; they DO look KGC; we have 'em on beech trees, here in Va.; AFTER the Civil War, MOST symbols were put on rocks, boulders, etc.; "turkey foots", turtles... etc.; here is a GREAT site to learn from: http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com    have fun!  HH  ;)

Yo!  me, again:    THIS may be a "helpful" web-site: http://www.knightsofthegoldencircle-kgc.com/signs.htm   ;)  HH

Sorry Guys I just got back from Wally world and they goofed up my film. I guess that gives me a good reason to go back and take more pictures. I was really wanting some help with what I think are maps disguised as a snake and word.

Please forgive my ignorance of the proper protocol but I would not spend one minute looking for John Murrell's treasure unless we are talking about the guy who makes the really good bacon and smoked sausages. Magnsdad, the area you are in is very ripe with treasure. I would, if i were you, concentrate on the West-Kimbrell gang's many, many treasures in and around Montgomery, La.

West and Kimbrell both road with the James under Quantrill during the Civil War. After the war they established the largest criminal network known, at that time. It stretched from Natchez Miss. to Nacogdoches, Tex.

There are three lost mines (silver and lead) in your area. There were four but one was found about 30 years ago. (It was a gold producing mine and to the best of my knowledge still produces twenty or more oz. a year.)

Most people know the area between the Sabine and Los Adaes Mission as the Neutral Strip not zone. The Adams-Onis Treaty did not satify the issue only the border. (See Athanase de Mezieres' work on the Border of Louisiana and Texas. It is filled with treasure leads.) My family settled in that area in 1799 and it was the area that I research for my Master's in History at USL along with Barney Rubble and Fred Flinstone. Yes, Betty Rubble was a cheerleader at USL at that time.)

There are too many treasures and books related to the life in the Neutral Strip to recall them all. All my research was lost in a hurricane in 1988 while I was living in Cankton, La.

About the treasure of the N.O. Mint, it may be real and it may not, but the West-Kimbrell gang did hijack the Union army payroll not far from your location. This is a very informative booklet written by a former newspaper editor from Montgomery and can be found in most libraries of the area. Look under subject heading of West-Kimbrell. A copy or two exist at Northwestern and ULL (former USL in Lafayette.)

I've hunted treasure in La. since 1966 and all I can say is that it is there. Do your research, double check your sources and if you find the big one bury some metal trash, i.e. cans plus a modern nickel or dime, to let the next man or woman know that you beat them to it. Beau champs. Cyrus.

Thanks for the insight. Finding the reading material you have suggested is as hard as finding the treasures itself. The idea that there may be a lost mine here has me intrigued. There are 5 to 10 galvanized washtubs on the side of the hill plus several buckets and pottery. I first thought someone was dumping trash there but it is just washtubs and that has me puzzled. When I went hunting Sunday I found a padlock under a rock that was buried about 3 inches deep. The lock is not civil war era but is still very old and has been underground for at least 50+ years. My daughter will go to her Grannies this weekend and I may get to do some uniterupted hunting. The sink hole on top of the hill may be worth a second look too. Wish me luck Roger

Hi Roger,

In that part of the world Caddo pottey is "common" or rather found on a regular basis. Please preserves even the shards of the Caddo pottery as they may be quite valuable. Go to your local library and ask for an inter-library loan. most libraries use computers now so a subject search will be quite easy. I'm sure you know the area between Mansfield and Pleasant Hill is loaded with CW artifacts.

The problem I have with the N.O. Mint story is the flood and that area was suffering from a very long drought at the time of the evacuation. The Red was so low in 1863, one year after the capture of N.O. that the entire Union fleet was almost destroyed by CSA gunners. Lt. Col. Bailey devised and built a dam at the rapids in Alex. so the steamboats could safely retreat from the rebs. The mound on the northwest side of the 167/165 bridge at Alex. is Ft. Bulow which was built to protect the dam builders. Admiral Farragut nominated Bailey for the Medal of Honor for saving the entire Union fleet in La.

Hwy. 6 through La. is one of the God awfullest treasure trails in the U.S. It is Second only to Hwy 90 in South La. because it was known as El Camino Real, (The King's Highway). All treasure from the west past along this road from 1763 to 1803 to N.O. Some very poor people were made wealthy ovenight because of the treasure along this road. (None of them were me.) Good Luck and God's speed. C.

qoute from cdhtexas''''''''''  The problem I have with the N.O. Mint story is the flood and that area was suffering from a very long drought at the time of the evacuation. The Red was so low in 1863, one year after the capture of N.O. that the entire Union fleet was almost destroyed by CSA gunners. Lt. Col. Bailey devised and built a dam at the rapids in Alex. so the steamboats could safely retreat from the rebs. The mound on the northwest side of the 167/165 bridge at Alex. is Ft. Bulow which was built to protect the dam builders. Admiral Farragut nominated Bailey for the Medal of Honor for saving the entire Union fleet in La........'''''''''  //////////   a careful reading of the official records and also a few other sources will place you at the near exact spot where a number of cannon were dumped in the river to lighten the loads on the boats involved in the above history.........gldhntr

Hey Gold Hunter. Looking for cannons sounds like fun. About 12 to 15 years ago me and a buddy were coonhunting and found what we thought was a Indian burial mound on the side of the river but after we climbed we found the remains of a split rail fence and some civil war stuff. I have been trying to remember where it was and think I can still find it. I may leave my Murrell site along for a week and find the mound again. If you want to look for cannons let me Know. Roger

Hi Roger and many thanx gldhntr,

guys, there is so much legitimate and confirmable treasure in La. that you do not have to take off looking for things that may or may not exist.

Do you know the name of the V.P. under President Thomas Jefferson? If you do, then look for the ferry on the La./Tx. border by the same last name and you will find tresure. Is it mule loads/ox loads/ burro loads/ rooster loads of gold? Hell no. It is the treasure that was buried just before people took the scariest ride of their lives. Can you imagine what 100 or 200 dollars worth of gold dollars, ten dolars or twenty dollars would be worth?

Follow the clues to the burying of the Union Army payroll in the paper and you will not be disappointed. Cyrus.

i'll look back through my books to see if i can find the info again...it seems like it was around 20 something cannon dumped in the same spot....googling '' civil war cannon for sale'' will show it would be well worth the trouble for sure....

Find the info on the cannons goldhunter. I will bring my boat. It is perfect for the Red River. 21 ft and flat bottom. It needs to be run anyway. Thats about all I can offer other than youthful enthusiasm. I guess I could weld a winch on front of it. I hope you know how to locate stuff underwater cause I don't have a clue, but I am not afraid to get my hair wet. Roger

don't know much about water hunting...just ran across the info several years ago and thought someone here might have an interest after reading this thread and remembering it.....i will sit down after christmas and find and post it...think it was 27 cannon, and the spot above the constructions they made in the river was pinpointed pretty good......gldhntr

We may have two problems finding the cannons. First the Red has recently had lock and dams installed and they have raised the water level some. Second after thinking about it all day I can vaguely remember reading that the corps of engineers found some cannons when they were dredging the river for the locks. I am not going to swear that they found them and will call the corps after the holidays. Also no one has commented about the second picture in the post. I am still curious to what other peoples impression are. I got the book about Murrells treasure vault and it was pretty useless. All it said was that he operated in the neutral strip but I already knew that, I have his name carved into a Beech tree. The author of the book didn't find the treasure but that doesn't suprise me, he was looking in the wrong spot.

Yo!  Rebel here:      Burr Ferry?  (for A. Burr...)   ;)

This is fun. I gave the lock to my dad when they took my daughter for Christmas vacation. It was so rusty that I thought it would crumble if I tried to clean it but I was wrong. Dad put it on a bench grinder with a wire wheel and it cleaned up very well. It is older than I thought and made by Yale and Towne who made modern locks in 1861. I have a lock collector book being ordered by my local library and I hope it will give me a exact date. The lock was buried exactly in between the waterfalls. Last Tuesday I went hunting and found a cotten scale sticking out of the ground. It had horseshoe magnets on it that easily made my compass spin. It also had a wood burning stove door under it. The cotten scale pointed directly toward the lock from about 300 yards away. My Dad is so excited about the lock he has purchased a metal detector and is bringing my daughter home early so he can go hunting with me. I also bought a 10 inch coil for my detector. It seems to double the distance it can detect but I have only tried it in my house.

Me, my father and girlfriend went hunting Monday and had a great time. Daddy was unable to go a second day in a row so he and mom both left today. He found a silver 50 cent piece 1936 in good shape. She found what I think is the most significant find and that was a very old single bit ax that appeared to be new when it was buried. This is the second ax that we have found there. I will put hers on a wire wheel and clean it up later today. I did not get to do any detecting I just did the digging for the two of them. I went and looked at the tree that had the date 1720 and I was wrong the 2 was a 3 that appeared to be a sideways M. I have not figured out the significance but I wanted to correct that and if you look close at the pic you can see it. I still want someone to give me their opinion of the first picture of the post. The lock collectors book still has not arrived at the library, when it does I will give the date of the padlock I found.Hope everyone had a great Holiday

Hi, If you found the axe heads and pad lock in the ground, just a few inches below the surface, in the vicinity of the carved trees, then it is a good chance that they are kgc clues.  By not leaving them and documenting them properly, you can lose all hope of finding any treasure.  I say this from experience.

On the other hand, generally the clues left near the carvings are clues to finding the treasure and is not the area the treasure is located at.  Where the treasure is at will be another set of buried markers and those are the ones you do NOT want to screw up.
Good luck,
Boattow

Thanks Boattow. I wrote down the direction of the cotton scale and both ax heads. I was not able to get a direction from the lock because it took a tumble when I unearthed it. The first ax head (hatchet) was buried with the cotton scale, magnets and woodstove door. The second was by itself but there was a plowpoint about 25 yards away from it. I wrote the coordinates for it as well. Did they use plowpoints? I did mark them on my GPS and wrote the coordinates in my notebook in case I lose the GPS. I am trying to be careful. Thanks for the advice and I am truly grateful for anything you tell me. Roger

Hi Roger,
Farm implements are commonly used as markers as well as axe heads, horseshoes, chains, wagon parts, stove parts, etc.  GPS coordinates are NOT near accurate enough.  It is very tempting to remove and keep these items but I highly recommend against doing it.  I started out doing that and then found as I gained experience and started to understand what was going on, I would need to go back to markers for different reasons.  Once removed you will never find the exact spot.  Go dig them back up after you find the treasure for souvenirs but not before.  A GPS is only accurate to about 10feet at best.  When you find a hit on your detector, slowly scrape away the dirt with a small trowel until you hit metal.  Then put your finger on it with your non-digging hand so that they don't take a tumble.  Use the other hand to start removing dirt with your fingers.  Do not go fast, take your time, once you remove a piece and don't know down to the degree how it was pointing, you have created a lost treasure.  Try to figure out how it is pointing.  It might be that the object points to the next marker.  It may have a notch that is actually pointing to the next clue.  Now get this, it might be pointing to the next clue and a notch on the marker is giving you the bearing from the next clue to the clue after that.  I have seen all these senarios.  Always measure the distance between the markers in feet, not yards.  I use autocad to draw a map of the pieces as I uncover them.  I can spend a day out in the woods and uncover only 2 markers because I'm so careful about digging, documenting (measurements, pictures, videos, etc)  It is important to go slow and be methodical and logical.
Good luck,
Boattow
PS, I keep getting PMs calling me Bob...I'm not Bob.  When I first started this, I contacted Bob and he blew me off.  I've had to figure this out as I went and I hate to see others make the same mistakes.  It is one thing to screw up chalking a beech tree, you can redo it.  It is another thing to screw up an iron marker, you can't go back and fix it once you've messed it up.

Thanks Boatow, I have been thinking today. What you said about a chip in the buried clue giving directions. The ax head we found Monday did not have a chip but where the handle entered, the metal had a triangle shape to it. I did take a accurate reading with my compass but  I used the top of the ax as my line. The pointer where the handle goes in would be 90 degrees different. Please give me your thoughts on this. Now the ax, shovel and plow point were about 1/4 to 1/2 miles and over a hill from the lock and cotten scale. I am hoping these are the treasure markers and not just a second set of directions. Thanks Roger

I decided that I needed a better detector today I ordered a two box Master Hunter made by Garrett. I also got to talk to a wonderful lady 80+ years young who told me about a nearby cave that both James and Murrell used when they were in the area (different dates). She told me some other legends one in particular was about a slave preacher who was owned by a nearby Baptist Church then sold to the Methodist Church for their preacher. It also seems the Masonic lodge then bought him and freed him. She has the minutes from the church that first had him. I could not have imagined such a story but she had the proof. I was hoping she had a map but she did have a folder on Murrell and I know the man she loaned to and he is to make me a copy. It will be a loss when historians like her leave us. The visit was 2 hours long but seemed only minutes. I plan to go back real soon and talk to her with a recorder. I also plan on taking my new detector to my site this weekend and using it. All the best, Roger

Let me just say this.  I had one of those.  I was greatly disappointed.  Got rid of it.  The depth reports were very hyped.  Bought a bottom of the line large loop pulse detector.  It had twice the depth the Garrett had.  I use high end pulse detectors and magnetometers exclusively now. 
Good luck,
Boattow

Don't tell me that boattow. Now I really have buyers remorse. It was killing me to spend the money now I am going to be nerve-racked till I test it out. I still appreciate your help and if the Garrett can do 1/4 of what they claim I will be in good shape. Thanks Roger

Hi,

Louisiana's Kisatchie Hills, by Mabell R. Kadlecek and Marion C. Bullard might be of some interest to you.  It's a book on local folklore and mentions the Murrells and treasure hunting in the Neutral Zone.  I've researched the area for about 10 years now after hearing some family stories from the Kisatchie area.  There's lots of history and 'signs' in the area.   

Sharon

Thanks Sharon, and welcome to the treasure.net. I will get the book you suggest.

the golden mean is definitly kgc.knights golden circle .

Hello Kiddrock, The phi under Murrells name is I think a obvious clue. The book Bob B. wrote talks about a the caches being laid out in a circular pattern. The phi formula is basically a circle with a in increasing radius. Also the three in the date tree looks more like a Greek Sigma more than the number 3. I have been thinking and doing research and the Greeks used their letters for numbers similar to the Romans. The Romans probably copied and made some improvements to their number system. Since many of the Greek numbers look like our letters it would be easy to hide them and make them look like Initials and graffiti. I have been asking everone in just about every post what they think the first picture is. Would you mind giving me your opinion? Thanks Roger

qoute from cdhtexas''''''''''  The problem I have with the N.O. Mint story is the flood and that area was suffering from a very long drought at the time of the evacuation. The Red was so low in 1863, one year after the capture of N.O. that the entire Union fleet was almost destroyed by CSA gunners. Lt. Col. Bailey devised and built a dam at the rapids in Alex. so the steamboats could safely retreat from the rebs. The mound on the northwest side of the 167/165 bridge at Alex. is Ft. Bulow which was built to protect the dam builders. Admiral Farragut nominated Bailey for the Medal of Honor for saving the entire Union fleet in La........'''''''''  //////////   a careful reading of the official records and also a few other sources will place you at the near exact spot where a number of cannon were dumped in the river to lighten the loads on the boats involved in the above history.........gldhntr

There was a fort at that location BEFORE the civil war because I found references to that location being one of the first assignments of Lt. U.S. Grant.  As a tip:   If you've never visited the library at Centenary College in Shreveport, then you've missed out on a truly excellent place to research history. 

Hello Kiddrock, The phi under Murrells name is I think a obvious clue. The book Bob B. wrote talks about a the caches being laid out in a circular pattern. The phi formula is basically a circle with a in increasing radius. Also the three in the date tree looks more like a Greek Sigma more than the number 3. I have been thinking and doing research and the Greeks used their letters for numbers similar to the Romans. The Romans probably copied and made some improvements to their number system. Since many of the Greek numbers look like our letters it would be easy to hide them and make them look like Initials and graffiti. I have been asking everone in just about every post what they think the first picture is. Would you mind giving me your opinion? Thanks Roger

Since the Spanish had control of that entire area for years, maybe some of those symbols were copied from them.  I 've read that Murrell as well as Mason are thought to have used Spanish signs for their markers.  Maybe you should take a look at Charles A. Kenworthy's books on Spanish signs and trail markers. 

Hello Shortstack. I have read the book about Spanish signs and have wondered if they were used by Murrell. I would like to go to the library and the next time you go let me know cause I can live in one. I do hate going to them since they started doing away with the card catalogs and put them on computers. What ever happened to the good old days. The local history section here is pretty sad. Let me know Roger

I probably will never get to visit Cenetenary again.  I was stationed at Barksdale from 1971 to 1976 and did some research there on the so called Civil War and the Neutral Strip.  I found out that the King of Spain gave the Spanish residents of the strip a week ( or a month, I can't remember now ) to pull completely out of the strip and back to the Texas side of the Sabine River.  According to records I found, the presidio folks tossed a small cannon with a cracked barrell into a large trash pit instead of lugging it out.  Further research showed that the folks that moved to the area of Nagadoches (sp) became afraid of the local indians and sent a crew back to recover my their cannon.  They wire-wrapped the barrell to make do.  But I wonder what other " trash " might still be in that pit.  I was doing my main research in the hard-bound copies of old Louisiana Historical Society pubs. 

I just read they think murrells loot is either at whats honey island in louisiana in that nuetral zone or somewhere in mississippi.

Hello Magansdad. I'm new here, but have been looking at Jessie James clues in the Monroe/Delhi area. There are documented references to him being in north la. along with some of his gang. I also have an interest in the KGC. When looking at your pictures, the first one strikes me as a topo map for some reason. The outer markings resemble some stone maps I have looked at, just with a unbroken line. The cross could possibly be a directional marker. Are there any hoot owl/trail trees around this area?
Another guess/hunch is the possibly misspelled word "beyond" and the B.T. could stand for beech tree. As in beyond the beech tree. I am by no means an expert in tree signs/symbols but have been studying them for some time. For some reason, the dagger pointing up makes me think you should looking closely at the carvings above it or even higher up. I read they put signs 20 or 30 feet up sometimes. One thing I have noticed when studying trail signs/symbols of the spanish/jesuit and others is the duplication of instructions. In other words, trails lead into an area from different points on the compass eventually leading to a cache/caches.
It's been awhile since I read up on Murrell, but I'm thinking he worked the ElCamino Reale, which ran from Natchez through the neutral zone at Natchitoches. I'm sure you've heard the stories of the lost spanish gold train.
One other thing that I use is patterns when searching for arrowheads.  What I mean is, what were their natural patterns. Where did they live/eat/sleep etc. What trails/waterways were the most often used etc. If you can pattern him in some way, you can begin to track him.
Anyway, I'm searching for JJ/confederate/KGC clues and stories around my area. If you happen to know any, I would appreciate any help you could offer.

I am back now. I hope everyone is doing fine. I have been having a war with AOL. I cant say who won the war but they aren't getting anymore of my money. My new E mail magnsdad@bellsouth.net   Thanks for the post Point hunter. I have looked up in the trees but didn't see anything. It wont hurt to take some binoculars my next trip. I am very curious about your Rocks and would like to see them. If they were connected that would be great. There was a story in the local library about Jesse but it didn't give any treasure hunting help. I appreciate you giving me youropinion of the first picture. Can you explain it better. Thanks Roger

Here we go. I went out last Sunday to my spot and did some looking at the old clues. I ran a string from the plowpoint to the Ax head and took a good compass bearing. The bearing was about 4 to 5 degrees off of a perfect east to west heading. When I got home I looked compass deviation history. The magnetic deviation was about 7 to 8 degrees in 1861. The deviation now is about 2. The ax and Plowpoint were laid out in a east to west according to a compass in 1861. Now I got excited and needed the next markers. I did find the padlock and decided that if they did a East West line then they might have done a North South line. I opened Google Earth then downloaded my GPS into my computer. The North line from the padlock ran through one of the marked Beech trees through the strange piles of dirt that I thought were suspicious and on for another hundred yards. I have the new coordinates written in my notebook. The other thing I will try is the midpoint of the triangle. Sunday is to far away

Although the Sabine Free State* did exist for 13 years (1806 – 1819), the Adams-Onis Treaty of 1819 put to rest any border disputes. The early settlers that did move to the Sabine Free State did so by getting Spanish Land Grants, as the Spanish still laid claim to the land.

The treasures you seek did not even exist in the early 1800s. The highly overrated land-pirate John Murel (Murrell)** and the KGC could not have crossed paths, as well. Would Jesse James bury gold/silver down in Louisiana?  Very doubtful.

You have your work cutout for you. Good luck, Jim

*Sabine Free State = Neutral Strip, Neutral Territory, Neutral Ground or No Mans Land

** John Murel (Murrell) – Born in 1806 and was at most a simple horse thief.

For your own education look up The big thicket east Texas

Ok Gentleman. I will go out this weekend and start from Square one. I will follow the heart shaped arrow to the Murrell tree that has the snake laying eggs and the Phi sign. I plan on working a grid pattern with my 2 box in the same line as the two trees. I wish I had done it earlier but the brush is kinda thick there and who wants to hunt in thick brush much less swing a 2 box. Wish  me all the best Roger

It has been a while since I have been hunting but I got to go this Sunday. I Was swinging my cheap detector cause my dad borrowed the good one when I had a strong beep. I figured it was some trash but turned out to be a old rifle. I was excited to say the least. The wood is gone from the rifle and it is solid rust. I can not say what kind it is but I will be following the direction of the barrel. I have left the rifle where it was and plan to keep people posted.

Extreme dissapointment that is the only way I can say this. My Dad came down Saturday and we devoted Sunday, Monday and Tuesday to finding the Cache. We hunted Sunday morning and after we had our picknic we went back to swinging detectors. I was using my Garrett two box when I finally had a hit. I knew it was a large object and deep because his minelab could not pick it up. The hit was in the creek about 20 ft from the waterfall or water trickle. We had first concentrated our efforts around the Murrell tree that had the Snake and the strange sign in it. I went to the tree by the fall that had the arrow pointing to the Murrell tree thinking the J may have been a turn around sign. It was. After digging 2 ft we could no longer use the plastic cup to bail water out of the hole so we decided to come back Monday with a better bailer. Early Monday we went back and started digging with a vengence. About 3 ft down we found the remains of a modern galvenised trashcan. We removed the can and still had a signal! I kept digging and after 1 to 2 feet I thought I hit a thin layer of iron ore. The layer of iron ore turned out to be a severly decomposed metal box about 12 inches high and a foot square. For a few moments me and pop were not breathing but after we shook the sand out and saw it was empty we could breathe. The words we used can not be used here!!! The only thing I can say about the box is that it was put together with rivets and the lock clasp was missing. Yes we were dissapointed at the end of our journey but the journey was great and full of fun with my dad, daughter, girlfriend who is now my wife.  All the best to everyone Roger

At least you proved what your two box can do.

I wish I was only trying to prove what the two box could do. I feel like I have lost a dear friend and am morning. BTW dads minelab Quantro is a great machine and better that my Garrett at strait metal detecting because it was able to pick it up before my Garrett could with the regular coil. In a month or two after deer season I will be over my morning and go after some cashes that are near me.

Just browsing the site and came across your post.

As Rebel said in his post (Reply #23 on: November 30, 2006) Go to the THU site if you haven't already and pull up the info on death traps ...almost at the end of that article it tells about snakes and circles (you called them eggs).

I included it here for quick reference:
http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/death.html     

Be sure to read the part about how the box is used to lure suckers into a death trap. Then go back to the site and look around for things that can go bump in the night. It just might take some digging.  If there is a death trap, there has to be a reason to put it there. 

Looks to me, like you're on to something.  ;)

Good luck, and "stay on top"
-dustcap

These are some fantastic posts! Good luck on your hunt. What can you tell me about hunting the Nibletts Bluff area?  My daughter lives nearby (Tx. side) and I was wondering if there was good hunting in this area.
                                        Ron

Allright I am over my morning. Dad thinks the empty box might have been a decoy and we need to look some more. I wonder if he would think that if he did all the digging He is planing to come for a visit after Thanksgiving. I have killed all the deer I want for the year and most of the hunters will be out of the woods by then. I have read about death traps and they do concern me so please do not worry. As far as any knowledge of niblets bluff I have read some stories but I cant think of what they say. I generally reread my books every other month and when I find something I will let you know. All the best

Hi,

Thanks for posting! How old do you think the modern trash can is and how big was it? Who could have placed it there and why? Any ideas?

Cavers5

The trash can was about the size that would take a tall kitchen trash bag. If I had to guess is had been there for 10 to 20 years. As far as why it was there I can only guess. Kids using it to carry camping gear maybe.

Hi!

I'm new here, I came for the Michigan stuff, but of course got lost in everything else. I'm wondering if the first pic describes the east/west north/south organization of the clues you found?

The pics are of 2 trees and are not in any order. There are about a dozen trees that are carved on. Many of the carvings are graffitti but some are to suspicious. The pic of the snake will be posted the next time I go back there. After thinking about it for a while I have decided that the tail of the snake is the directional marker I need to follow.

OK I have been busy. The snake tail does point North and I found a marked tree took pictures and came home.  On the tree there was a XP combination sign. At first I thought it was a crossed flag but looking on a symbols webpage I found a exact match. It was a symbol for Christ. Now with a Masonic man burying the treasure and they are hung up on East and Christ is going to come from the East I think that should be the next direction to go. All the best Roger

be nice to see those shots with out all that chalk tainting the photos, as well as backing up when you shoot , you are missing much more info by getting so close, Tammahawk

I just read some of the messages posted on this old topic and think they deserve to be read and considered again so I'm posting to this thread in hopes it will gain some new posts and comments.
~Texas Jay

You would probably do good to try to match some of your carvings to some of the symbols on the maps left behind by Murrell.

You would probably do good to try to match some of your carvings to some of the symbols on the maps left behind by Murrell.

Do you have any Murrell maps Alec?

Of course, doesn't everybody? 

Just for you Hoss! Now don't go agreeing with me either, I'll have to start drinking!! 

Very interesting.  Do you have the other side of that map?  or is that all.  I'll comment after you answer this post.
Thanks Alec,
Big Hoss

I have a whole stack of Murrell's maps but I only have parts of a few of them scanned into the computer. All of the maps I have are whole maps and I think my collection contains about 80% or Murrell's maps.

Magnsdad's profile shows he hasn't been active since Aug. 19, 2009.  Wonder how his project has come along.

He kept asking for opinions about that first photograph.  Well, that large rectangular area on the left kind of looks like someone cut above and below a symbol and peeled it off of the tree.  On the right is a heart that is tilted a little with it's "point"  pointing to the left.

Further down, the photo of the Oct. ,12 17something;  that "12"  looks more like a lower case "n", which is the 14th letter of the alphabet and the comma is extra long, pointing toward that strange, tilted rectangular shape.

Hey, alec.  Got any of those maps for Mississippi?     That one you've posted says there is a place called Granddo on the Red River.  Is that a village, community, or just describes that ravine?

To be honest with you I don't know what it means. I've had these maps since 98 and haven't done a thing with them. It's been a while since I was hunting in Louisiana so I just stuck them in my files and they have sat there. I haven't tried to interpret/decipher them at all. The maps have lots of wierd symbols and symbolism on them with lots of references to the Masons (the KGC guys will love that). There are also a lot of other symbols and references on the maps that don't have anything to do with the Masons.

I don't think any of the maps I have go to Mississippi but I have several that I haven't even really looked at so who knows. I think the majority of the ones I have go to Louisiana and Texas. Maybe in a few months I will have time to look through them and see. If I do then I will try to scan some and post them.

[proven]

alec,  on the northside of Natchez, MS is a large depression called The Devil's Punchbowl.  It has a proven history of hidden treasures left by robbers, murderers, river pirates, etc. from the earliest days of history there.  Natchez was the eastern end of the Neutral Zone and the gateway to the west.  Years ago, a cache of gold bars were recovered from that area and ended up with Charles Garrett.  Murrell, Mason, and other well known and "no-knowns" used that area to hid and escape capture.  Perhaps one of your maps may have a tie-in with Natchez. 

I spent a little time in the "punchbowl" several years ago poking around. It's an interesting place.

Historical claims are that the compasses of the riverboats travelling the Mississippi River would "go nuts" whenever the boats would pass that area.  Seems to me that maybe some meteorite hunting might be profitable, too. 

Hi. I find these latest posts interesting. I have found the name Murrell carved in at least one beech tree close to the Dixie Overland Hwy. (Hwy. 80) in north Louisiana. I have been chasing bent tree clues and carving sites off and on for a few years now. Hwy. 80 was the first east/west highway from the east coast to the west coast. I thought I was chasing KGC or JJ, but the sites do seem to have been used over a number of years based on the different age of the carvings. I have a pretty good understanding of the lay of the land from central to north Louisiana having grown up about 60 miles from Natchez. I will help you Alec identify some landmarks if you want me to.  I don't want to see your maps unless you want to share them, I have plenty sites located already to try and figure out.
I also have a question about Natchez and the neutral zone. I thought the neutral zone was along the Louisiana/Texas border. Natchez is located at the Louisiana/Mississippi border. Natchez is however located on the Camino Real which runs across central Louisiana to Texas passing right though the neutral zone. The Camino Real is now known as Hwy. 84.

Thanks for the offer Point Hunter but I don't get to Louisiana much so I doubt I will be hunting any of Murrel's stuff for quite a while. Several of the maps I have have some landmarks named on them such as rivers and creeks. When I get time I will try to post a few more of the maps on here for you and anyone else that may be interested.

Maybe Hoss will jump in with some info. He said he was going to but must have got busy.

Here are a couple of more.

Very cool maps!!! I recognized a couple of place names right off. The first is Black Lake. Here a brief history I found interesting and the link:     
http://lakebistineau.com/history/DATES%201.html

1818- In August 1818, John Murrell, after leaving his home in Tennessee and traveling down the Mississippi and up the Red River into Loggy Bayou and Dorcheat with his wife, six children, a pack horse, his rifle and a dog or two found a cooling spring and settled his family near Isaac Alden's home in the "flat Lick" (small creek) area just east of today's Minden. At the time his only neighbors were Isaac Alden and a half-indian named Fields. But that winter brought Mr. Allen for whom the settlement was later named(Allen's Settlement), Daniel Moore, Wm. Gryder, and Newton Drew who established the community of Overton on the east banks of Bayou Dorcheat.
   These first settlers found the country beautiful, pleasant and healthy. Game was plentiful and astonishingly tame. The black bear, deer, turkey,waterfowl fish and quail were used as food. The panther, black wolf, wildcats and foxes were troublesome. Otters and some beaver provided fur.
   While John Murrell was not the first settler in the area, preceded by Isaac Alden in 1811, the burial of his son in the fall of 1818 marked the first burial among the civilized in this area. Also, the birth of his son in 1819 marked the first birth in the area. The oldest graveyard in the area was located on the John Murrell plantation in 1822.

Black lake is located roughly 30 miles from Red River and Shreveport. South of Hwy. 80 on Hwy. 9 near Campti, Louisiana.

The next is Grand Encore, here is the link:     http://www.townofchatham.org/home/history.shtml

Although most of early transportation in North Louisiana was by water there were some well used trails at an early date. “The Old Natchitoches Road” was one that ran from Lake Providence to Natchitoches. The geographer William Darby published what many believe to be the first known trails on it. He described the trail, later known as the “Old Natchitoches Road,” when he spoke of an Indian trail at Grand Encore, located north of Natchitoches, on the new bed of the Red River as being: ...joined by another which was known as the Ouachita trail, and which led directly to the Licks, and thence through the hills, directly northeast to a Choctaw Village on the banks of Bayou Cheniere au Tondre, and thence to cross the Ouachita at the site of Monroe and to continue on up the Ouachita and into southeast Arkansas and to the Mississippi.

This trail was used extensively by the Indians to transport salt from Louisiana salt works to the many Indian villages along the route. It was also a part of Sieur de Bienville’s route to Natchitoches by way of Chatham in 1700 on his trip from Lake Providence to Natchitoches.

I know almost exactly where the Chowtaw village on Bayou Cheniere is located. What I find very interesting is the tree carving site I refered to with Murrell's name is only 3 or 4 miles away. It seems I should be looking much closer at Murrell. Thanks!!!

Point Hunter,

Glad to see this post, I havent been here in some while and not sure you remember me.  I am located in Winnfield, La.  My main intrest is in the West/Kimbrell Clan and John Murrell, and seeing these maps is a real boost for me.  I am in the process of reading a book about Murrell, "Reverend Devil".  I plan to go to this area and start looking for some clues.  I am not far at all from Atlanta and Montgomery which was home for the West/Kimbrell Clan, and also my family is from the area known as the neutral strip.  My ancestors settled land in the Natchitoches/Sabine Parishes during the late 1800's, and is still in the family.

Alec,

I would really be intrested in see any of these maps if your willing to share that info.

I will try to get some more maps scanned and posted. I recently moved to a new house and I have stuff boxed up everywhere so I have to first, find the box they are in and then get them scanned.

Here's a couple more that I already had scanned.

Kisatchie,

Hi. It's good to hear from you. I haven't been here much myself. We'll have to chat some when you get time. I hope these maps and research get you pointed in the right direction. Don't forget us, when you find the big one!! Ha Ha

Alec,

Thanks so much for posting more maps. I keep hoping I'll see one that matches up with a site closer to me. That would be fun to chase. Your generosity in sharing info shows what a great person you are. Thanks again.

I have been looking closer at Murrell the outlaw these past few days. I have discovered there were two John Murrell's in the west Louisiana area. My earlier post is actually about John Murrell, the gentleman farmer. Sorry that I posted info that wasn't true. What are the odds: Two men living in the same area, at the same time, with the same name. Both of them having a good bit of info available online.
Here is some info found on Murrell the outlaw and the link. I couldn't get it to copy properly, but it's pages 302-309:


http://books.google.com/books?id=qm...l%20%20gold%20louisiana&f=false

point hunter, thank you for the compliment but don't go making me out to be too nice of a guy, you'll get people laughing! 

I was reading your messages and remembered something mentioned in a book"Shadow of the Sentenial" an overturned strong box was used to throw off unknowing diggers. it meant dig deeper. be sure to check out that hole real good before leaving it. Good luck.

   Didn't Murrell/Murel go to prison in 1834 for a ten year stretch and come out
with TB and died shortly after 1844/45?  That would mean he was active in the
KGC from 1820's to 1834???  Oh, I know, Jay, he faked his death in 1844 and
rode with Bloody Bill and Quantrell serving as Sgt-at-Arms in the Knights of the
Golden Circle.  Then after the Surrender he floated his treasure down the Missi-
ssippi to the Devil's Punchbowl at Natchez.  That skull the gravediggers got
really belonged to Jonathan Swift and the fingers tattooed with HT(Horse Theif)
really belonged to a guy named Bigalow.  After burying half his loot at the
Punchbowl he went overland to the nuetral strip by the Sabine to bury the rest.
In order to support his gang of 2500 Mystic Clanners he robbed the New Orleans mint and started the Mardis Gras using Melangeon and Redbone actors
to throw fake necklaces to the huge crowds on Bourbon Street.  At his 100th
birthday party in 1904 his invitees included both James's, Frank Dalton, Roy
Acuff, John Dillenger and Pretty Boy Floyd.

                                            THE  END

You boys poking around those hill right out of Natchez Louisiana, which is right dab in the middle of the no law zone?  Be careful out there, some of those local can get a little rowdy.  Point Hunter, we will get together in a couple of years if my body hold out and do a little hunting.  Till then I am stuck in Tulsa Oklahoma on a Job.  Dang this work thing.

I am a Petroleum Landman and have worked many of the Parishes of Louisiana that were included in "No Mans Land". While working Red River Parish a few years back I found land patents for John Murrell and Iaasic Murrell. If I remember correctly the lands were located around the area where Hwy 84 crosses the Red River and the western boundary line was Bayou Pierre, I think John was granted the section adjoining the bayou and Issac got the section just to the East.

Side Note:  Has anyone here used a  Digital Golf Range Distance Finder Scope to measure distances in the field of treasure hunting?

These are much cheaper than a laser transit if they will work.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Never used a golf scope but I routinely used laser range finders (the hunting kind) in the field and they work great. Beats stretching a tape 200-300 yards.

Never used a golf scope but I routinely used laser range finders (the hunting kind) in the field and they work great. Beats stretching a tape 200-300 yards.

Wow, you actually have to measure distances of 200 and 300 yards??!!

Dang, Tulsa?!......you could be lookin in Okie land....if you are not already!

You boys poking around those hill right out of Natchez Louisiana, which is right dab in the middle of the no law zone?  Be careful out there, some of those local can get a little rowdy.  Point Hunter, we will get together in a couple of years if my body hold out and do a little hunting.  Till then I am stuck in Tulsa Oklahoma on a Job.  Dang this work thing.

Never used a golf scope but I routinely used laser range finders (the hunting kind) in the field and they work great. Beats stretching a tape 200-300 yards.

Wow, you actually have to measure distances of 200 and 300 yards??!!

Just on certain occasions and usually only when I'm hunting Spanish stuff. Does that ruin your day Hoss? 

Dad Burn you Alec......putting all the cool maps online here......tempting me to solve these puzzles!
You ought to be ashamed of tempting me when I need to work on my own! LOL

Always glad to help!