If the Heart of Cibola were to be found in the superstition mountains

If the Heart of Cibola were to be found in the superstition mountains, what do you think are the chances that it would be the exact same location as the Lost Dutchmans Mine and or Cache

Come to think of it, back in the day, the Superstitions may have included some marginal area of the Tontos a well.  Some reason, the "Heart" really means something in this area;  more than any other I presume.

HI frankly impossible. Such a center of people would leave tons of artifacts, mounds where buildings were, and paths of access and commerce.  None of which has surfaced so far.  It would be easily visible on sat  coverage.  When I can find an individual mission site where nothing remains visible today , such a center would be outstanding.

Sorry

Don Jose de La Mancha

If the Heart of Cibola were to be found in the superstition mountains, what do you think are the chances that it would be the exact same location as the Lost Dutchmans Mine and or Cache

I would vote 'Zero'.  However, I do suspect there is quite an old and valuable cache somewhere in the region, possibly associated with one of the seven caves of Chicomoztoc, the Mexicas' pre-migration North American homeland.  I also believe the location of the cache is known by those who still own it and monitor its security.

People have argued for centuries where Chicomoztoc was - Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and other points much further north have been pushed.  Maybe all the above ... nobody has provided a convincing proof yet.   The 'Cibola' tag was applied and used by the Conquistadors, but if memory serves, the legends are much older and the rich targets were originally referred to as 'La Gran Quivira'.  'Quivira' is a word with roots back in ancient India as I recall.  Pondering these mysteries become like peeling onions - one layer after another.

I also would vote "no chance" that the LDM or Waltz's caches could be considered the "Heart of Cibola".
It is more likely that the range was a difficult portion of the journey between population centers,a great place to conduct operations far from prying eyes,an excellent place to hide ones treasures and,of course,a good lair for the raiders that followed.
Lots to wonder about while wandering around out there.

Regards:SH.

It would depend on which LDM you are referencing.

"Herman stated that Rhiney dug up an iron pot at Jake`s old house that was very heavy and laden with gold.  Some of the gold was in the form of nuggets and some of it was in white quartz which had tiny nuggets imbedded in it.  Among the specimens were six pieces of very heavy rich gold ore, none of which looked alike.  An assay of these specimens showed one hundred ten thousand dollars to the ton.  Of course, Rhiney lost them."

"It would seem to me that if there were 6 very rich specimens and all of them were different, they each would have come from a different mine and would have been hand picked for richness.  If this hypotheses were true, you might have six clues to six different mines"    Don Shade, "Esperanza, pg 134-135."

The answer to you question is both yes and no.  Is what you call the heart of Cibola in the Superstitions.  Yes.

Evening  Springfield;  You posted -->
possibly associated with one of the seven caves of Chicomoztoc, the Mexicas' pre-migration North American homeland.

***************

Preliminary evidence tends to speculate that the Aztecs just may be the lost Tribe of Israel.  They apparently migrated across the Mediterranean  to the Place of the reeds off of the coast of Spain and France, then migrated west to the Continental North America.  Then gradually worked their way across to Ariz.. down to Mexico city.  In the process the initial hereditary line was probably heavily diluted with local Indian tribes. 

Your turn, do a DNA on any known Aztecs  he hehe

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

"Preliminary evidence tends to speculate that the Aztecs just may be the lost Tribe of Israel.  They apparently migrated across the Mediterranean  to the Place of the reeds off of the coast of Spain and France, then migrated west to the Continental North America.  Then gradually worked their way across to Ariz.. down to Mexico city.  In the process the initial hereditary line was probably heavily diluted with local Indian tribes."

Can you mention one piece of evidence that supports that speculation?

On the other hand, you are exactly correct here:

"HI frankly impossible. Such a center of people would leave tons of artifacts, mounds where buildings were, and paths of access and commerce.  None of which has surfaced so far.  It would be easily visible on sat  coverage.  When I can find an individual mission site where nothing remains visible today , such a center would be outstanding."

Take care,

Joe

DNA testing done by quite a number of Universities, tested over 200 native tribes in the Americas and tests have ruled conclusively that the Native inhabitants of this region are indeed of Chinese decent and little other if any.  Somewhere out there is a single Kiva/Gold mine like no other.  Who can say how large an area in question may be according to native standards.  The heart watched over by the ancestors for 1,000 years +,  must have ended with the addition of the reservation.  Alcohol and time has forgotten the details, but the story lives on.   Got to be in Utah;  you've looked everywhere else right? 

Cactus, you posted -->Can you mention one piece of evidence that supports that speculation
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Yep, while the entire lot is built on circumstantial evidence.   one or two, k a casual coincidence, but when you put all of them together a pattern develops.

For example, where is this place of the reeds that is prominent in their oral history?

Where is the area that they migrated from, specifically mentioning crossing a large body of water?

Where is the missing tribe of the Israelites that migrated west through the Mediterranean from Jerusalem?

Do the Israelites have any, shall we say Oriental DNA ?


Will do for a starter, much more than was originally used to find Troy, and lately, the lost City in the Arabian desert. he he

Don Jose de La Mancha

Oh boy;  the Mormons are still looking for the garden of Eden in America,  maybe Cibola is in Norway?

Twisted Fork wrote

the Mormons are still looking for the garden of Eden in America, maybe Cibola is in Norway?
 

Well, no less than Cristopher Columbus himself was convinced that Eden was in America, or at least he wrote so much on seeing the beatiful Orinoco river in his third voyage (1498?).  In support of that contention, Eden was located "in the East" from what we consider the Holy Land today, so you could say that America can be reached by traveling easterly from Palestine.  I don't agree with that theory but it is interesting.

El Tropical Tramp wrote

Where is the missing tribe of the Israelites that migrated west through the Mediterranean from Jerusalem?

We could point at the Sephardic Jews of Spain and the Iberian peninsula, though most seem to group them as members of the tribe of Judah, and they seem to have been in Spain long before any exiles left the homeland, possibly as colonists to Tarshish.  Thomas Jefferson felt that some Amerindian tribes were probably from one or more of the lost tribes, specifically naming the Delawares for their more European/Mediterranean physical attributes.  Wouldn't it be surprising if some future DNA study shows Hebrew ancestry for some Amerindian tribe?  I wonder how our historians would try to explain that one. 
Oroblanco

Good morning ORO:  I am afraid that is something that they   WILL   have to face someday soon..   Ancient history and migration paths are constantly being  revised.

Ex.  the Aleutians land bridge migration route is now seriously being questioned as the primary source of immigration to the Americas, plus intriguing information is being leaked that perhaps man has been in the Americas since the first division of the applicable tectonic plate movement started, as is possible in the Austraiian case..

This means that possibly the Caucasian race was here, until being displaced (eliminated ) by the present "Native Americans" in their later migration from Asia.

In our lifetime I believe that the location of Atlantis, as we in here have found,  will be confirmed.

It is increasingly possible that civilization such as we call it, has flourished various times only  to completely disappear and the proces of evolution starts over again.

Cibola, or at least an accurate description of it, and artifacts have been shown to be in the Valley of Conojaque on the Border between Sinaloa and Durango. I believe that it has been named as a  world heritage site by the UN.

Don Jose de La Mancha

[theory]

Good morning ORO:  I am afraid that is something that they   WILL   have to face someday soon..   Ancient history and migration paths are constantly being  revised.

Ex.  the Aleutians land bridge migration route is now seriously being questioned as the primary source of immigration to the Americas, plus intriguing information is being leaked that perhaps man has been in the Americas since the first division of the applicable tectonic plate movement started, as is possible in the Austraiian case..

This means that possibly the Caucasian race was here, until being displaced (eliminated ) by the present "Native Americans" in their later migration from Asia.

In our lifetime I believe that the location of Atlantis, as we in here have found,  will be confirmed.

It is increasingly possible that civilization such as we call it, has flourished various times only  to completely disappear and the proces of evolution starts over again.

Cibola, or at least an accurate description of it, and artifacts have been shown to be in the Valley of Conojaque on the Border between Sinaloa and Durango. I believe that it has been named as a  world heritage site by the UN.

Don Jose de La Mancha

With all due respect, you have presented a theory, as have many others, speculating on the location of Atlantis.  As you mentioned, its true location is yet to be confirmed.

Regarding older civilizations, you might be interested in Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, by Charles H. Hapgood.

good afternoon Springfield:  You posted --> all due respect, you have presented a theory, as have many others, speculating on the location of Atlantis.  As you mentioned, its true location is yet to be confirmed.
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HI, get your wet suit on and go prove it for us here, he he he  What's a little 12,000 ft ?  I'm afraid that proof is on the lesser side of the World's priorities, right now, just mine and TN's.

Don Jose, el Tropical Tramp wrote

Good morning ORO: I am afraid that is something that they WILL have to face someday soon.. Ancient history and migration paths are constantly being revised.

Ex. the Aleutians land bridge migration route is now seriously being questioned as the primary source of immigration to the Americas, plus intriguing information is being leaked that perhaps man has been in the Americas since the first division of the applicable tectonic plate movement started, as is possible in the Austraiian case..

This means that possibly the Caucasian race was here, until being displaced (eliminated ) by the present "Native Americans" in their later migration from Asia.

In our lifetime I believe that the location of Atlantis, as we in here have found, will be confirmed.

It is increasingly possible that civilization such as we call it, has flourished various times only to completely disappear and the proces of evolution starts over again.

Cibola, or at least an accurate description of it, and artifacts have been shown to be in the Valley of Conojaque on the Border between Sinaloa and Durango. I believe that it has been named as a world heritage site by the UN.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola amigo,
I only have a few minutes but wanted to check in and found your interesting replies.  I fear that we are drifting ever farther off-topic in our speculations.  As our mutual amigo Springfield already posted, your proposed location of Atlantis is as yet, unproven, and the extreme depths of water in that location makes the possibility of a field examination quite unlikely for some time.  Also, I remain <respectfully> unconvinced that it IS the correct location; especially since I convinced myself that Atlantis actually lies in a quite different location which I will make public in the book.  <If I ever get that done to my satisfaction and can locate a publisher willing to buy it, haha .>

I also am respectfully unconvinced about your proposed location for Cibola, despite being designated as a World Heritage site, due to the various early Spanish and French sources which seem to indicate a true location far to the north, quite possibly the Mandan villages on the Missoui river in fact.

I am in agreement with you that it seems quite probable that a civilization, perhaps several in fact, which arose during the last Ice Age, have been utterly destroyed by natural calamities leaving only 'legends' of their former glories.  The evidence has been slowly mounting to support this contention, however the use of the term "advanced" in describing such ancient civilizations per their levels of technology and culture may well be a bit too liberal.  If we re-examine the ancient sources that refer to such very ancient (Ice Age) civilizations, the most advanced technology appears to be plumbing.  As deep-sea exploration progresses, we may yet find more evidences of a higher level of technology for those Ice-age people, but so far nothing seems to indicate any technology higher than Roman empire age, as in plumbing, domestication of horses, the use of metals etc.

As for the routes and origins of the first Americans, this area of study is likewise in a state of flux almost on a daily basis. The land bridge theory so widely accepted is at last being questioned, and alternate (sea) routes being taken more seriously as a probable route for the earliest colonists.  The finding of Australoid type peoples here in the Americas which could predate the Caucasoid certainly raises issues with the whole land-bridge theory and questions exactly which group of people really were the first to arrive, and reinforces the concept that the Americas have never been truly and utterly isolated from the rest of the world; being in truth a 'melting pot' of the races of man apparently for a very long time.  One other point on this off-topic issue, that the Caucasoid peoples do not seem to have been utterly eliminated by later Asiatic colonists arriving in the Americas, as a sizable minority of Amerindian tribes have been found to carry the "haplogroup X" sub-type of DNA which is found only in European peoples; indicating that at least some portion (perhaps as much as 5%) of Amerindians trace their ancient ancestry not to east Asia but to Europe, and there never was a land bridge across the Atlantic. This area of study is turning up new information almost daily, so we may see changes for our history books in the very near future.

My apologies for going so far off topic, if it is too far just ask the moderators to delete it or send me a PM and I can remove it.  Have to sign off but will check in later this evening.
Roy

 

A wealth of great information, Oro. Thanks for sharing... 

Jerry

Hi room : look what I found in this extremely interestng bit of data------------------>

Here we see a picture of a DNA. Looks familiar doesn't it? One question that becomes obvious to a highly developed human generation, is obviously 'How can we pass over all of our scientific knowledge in case of a cataclysm'. It is believed that such cataclysms have occured more than once in the past, probably wiping off each time whole human generations with all their knowledge. Unfortunately, it is beleived that these generations have either left no signs of their knowledge, or no traces were left of these. However, it is more probable that in our ignorance we are still not able to find and understand their messages, which might have been well visible to us for many years.




from a fascinating postulate / thesis. Read it in it's entirety, only middle level language -->       http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-geom.asp


Don Jose de La Mancha





http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-geom.asp

[that level is WAY over my head!]

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Read it in it's entirety, only middle level language

Only middle-level - sheesh that level is WAY over my head!      It is an interesting idea, of encoding information into DNA that could be retreived later, but wouldn't that entail great risks?  Even tiny changes in the DNA structure, result in major changes in the physical attributes of the living creature it belongs to, as was shown in the reverse-engineering a chicken into a dinosaur experiment that produced chickens with a long tail.  I do enjoy Graham Hancock's works, but not sure that I can agree with this idea of using the very DNA of humans, to record for posterity a lot of information when that DNA structure has such powerful effects on the physical attributes.
Oroblanco