Treasure Trove Permits

[17]

Hello Blindbowman and everyone,

My apologies for not getting a reply posted sooner, haven't been online the last few days - don't ask!  Old age and being decrepit (out of shape!) is NOT fun when you are burying water pipes.....   Oh well now to get to the details...

Blindbowman wrote:
did you say there was a wagon trail in the superstitions ?

Yes there are at least TWO of them, as far as I know - one was known as the "Mormon Toll Road" but the real name was the Mesa-Globe toll road; some Mormons got the idea to build a toll road there as a shorter route, and did get some road built but ran out of funds before finishing - the date around 1880-81.  The other aborted road I don't know much about but it was also not completed, the date around 1890.  I have been looking for the Mormon road, but for totally un-related reasons - for one I think it would be a cool 'trail' to follow on horseback.  I know, 'geez Oroblanco that doesn't have anything to do with treasure hunting' well yes, guilty as charged.     Neither road was ever completed, as far as I know - so would seem to run to nowhere, literally.

the trail dosen go anywhere other than the tunnle to this other area and just vanishes by the looks of it ..

It sounds like you might have located either the Mesa-Globe toll road or the other aborted road - however it is pretty tough to estimate an exact date for old roads; I have found old ox-cart trails (Spanish or Mexican) and they look pretty much just like the same sort of dirt roads made by Americans later - narrow wheel ruts are narrow wheel ruts.  Did the road seem to run east-west, generally?

 i almost forgot . if the dutchman killed the 3 so called peralta and buried them near the hiden camp . we beleave we found the hiden camp and will be looking for those 3 graves as well & the large chache...

Yes, and there is the biggest little word in the English language - IF the Dutchman murdered the three Peraltas and buried them near the hidden camp.  This version of events is largely dependent upon the veracity of Holmes, which (in my opinion) is highly questionable - by his version Waltz was a murderous villain and almost a coward as well - which is not in keeping with his known behavior - think about how Waltz behaved with his friends.  For example, would you think that a cold-blooded murderer, a man who would kill his own "nephew" that he invited to come work with him, would be the same sort of man who would lend thousands of dollars to his friend Julia Thomas when she was about to lose her bakery/soda shop because she was unable to pay her debts?   Does that seem logical to you?

Blindbowman also wrote:we found what looks like a cross and the number  81,1   we are not sure what it is yet ... dose  1881...  ring any bells ...

As concerns Jacob Waltz or Peraltas or Jesuits - no - however it is the same date that the Mesa-Globe toll road was being built and abandoned.

i want to ask a few questions about this date . if this is a  date . the dutchman would have retrun home in jan of 1881, he says he retrun to Phoenix,, .. in the dick holmes acount ... if so is there any record of him being in phoenix at that time .. and the other thing i wanted to know is there any record of him selling gold in jan of 1881 .. ..

Yes Jacob Waltz can be shown to have been living in Phoenix (actually outside of town, but now the site is well within the city limits) in 1881.  There are records of his selling and shipping gold in 1881, but I don't have the exact dates.  Waltz made quite a number of trips to the mine over the years from discovery to his being too old and physically unable to return, not just one or two as you read in some versions.  If you think about this, it makes sense - with at least $240,000 being shipped to the mint, the sheer weight of the ore means his one little burro (he owned a burro for at least the last ten years of his life which he also rode, as when delivering eggs to Julia to trade for bread etc) would have had to have made more than one or two trips to the mine. 

if if this date of 1881 january than we know he was working the mine at that time ...

Hmm well... wouldn't that be making a bit of an assumption?  That assumes the date 81 (also see below) is somehow either carved by Waltz or his partner, which we have no record of Waltz leaving any such clues in the Superstitions.

The "81" seems a likely marker left by the builders of the Mesa-Globe toll road; now not to lend credence to the ideas of Spaniards and Jesuits in the Superstitions (this cannot be substantiated) but 1781 also coincides with a period of Spanish expansion in Pimeria Alta/northern Sonora; a whole string of forts were constructed to protect this expansion, though the forts were abandoned just a few years later.   Does this prove that there were Spaniards working in the Superstitions in 1781?  Of course not, it seems logical that the 81 is related to the toll road builders, but we just can't prove that at this point.

one of the reason i ask was when did his partern wiser die ...?


Weiser (also spelled Wiser, Weisner, Wisner etc) died in the 1870s, which coincides with the period that Waltz is thought to have discovered his mine, according to people who knew him personally in Florence.

he other thing that gets me is this is 10 years before he own death ...

IF (that huge word) the '81' is related to Jacob Waltz, we would be wondering about the meaning for the inscription - however there is no record of Waltz or Weiser leaving such a clue to find.

the other thing if the dick holmes acount is true or parts of it are true than if that started in 1877 that means he only work the mine for 4-5 years at the most, from 1877 to 1881 before killing his nephew and each time he killed someone he returned to phoenix to wait it out to see if anyone got word of it or saw him  or missed who was shot or killed .. the reason i say that is look  , he says i return the next winter  , and  he close the mine up the next winter ... so that mean to me that he only worked the mine no more than 5-6 year totally in the winter months ... what year was the flood ?... that would tell us he had been liveing off the small catch no more than 5-7 years at the time of his death ....IMHO

Again, we are working with a version from Holmes, which is in variance with known facts on a number of points - your questions only seem to point up the un-reliability of his account.  Based on OTHER reports (excluding Holmes, for the reasons cited earlier) it seems that Waltz never worked too hard at the mine, just went in and got another 'load' and when that ran out he would go back for more.  Similar in that respect to the famous Lost Ben Sublett mine, remember Sublett would make a trip to his mine, return with a load of gold and when that ran out would go back for more.  Waltz seemed to have followed that pattern as well, though his remaining 'cache' of ore (that taken from beneath his death-bed) was nearly gone when he died.  It seems that Waltz did not have the 'greed' we are supposed to attribute to him.  According to another source, Waltz made his last trip to the mine a year or a few years at most, after the small dairy farm was built - so he would have been living off the last 'proceeds' only a couple of years by the time he passed away.  The flood which resulted in Waltz getting sick (remember he was rescued by his friend Reiney Petrasch) happened in February of 1891.

they may explan why some years he showed up on the cenus and other years he did not ...?

Again we know that Waltz lived in the Bradshaws for some years prior to moving to the Phoenix area, and local residents of both Phoenix and Florence (which he seemed to have made his 'base' for several years while just prospecting) said that Waltz had started a homestead claim on the north bank of the Salt river, but the 'gold-fever' soon returned and he made frequent prospecting trips into the Superstitions.

Blindbowman you made some statements about your photos, that seemed to imply there was something alarming in them - would you care to enlighten me (and the readers)?  Or if not, we will be left guessing.

I doubt that I can convince you NOT to rely on the Holmes version of events, however as you have started to find some of the errors and idiosycracies in his (Holmes) account, perhaps you will decide to examine the other versions of events?  Yes the other accounts are not nearly  as exciting or bloodthirsty, but many points can be proven in this 'other' version; it might change the entire direction of your search.

Oroblanco


PS - Did some looking up, as to the known whereabouts of Jacob Waltz and got this much:

Jacob Waltz is listed in the Territorial Census 1864, 3rd district (Yavapai county) age 54 (he would have been 56 actually) occupation miner, born in Prussia (Germany), resident in Arizona two years.  He is also listed in US Census 1880, residing in Phoenix, age 70, occupation farmer born in Prussia (Germany) and is listed in the Great Register for Maricopa county in 1876, 1882 and 1886 as a resident of Phoenix, and that he was naturalized as a citizen on July 19, 1861 in Los Angeles in the First District court.

Senator Hayden has the death of his partner Jacob Weiser as taking place "about 1881" at the ranch of John D. Walker near Florence.  Pioneer interviews have an earlier date, as in early 1870s.

I don't think it is going to be possible to "pin down" the exact dates of the movements of Waltz, records were just not kept on that level.

"He is also listed in US Census 1880, residing in Phoenix, age 70, occupation farmer born in Prussia (Germany) and is listed in the Great Register for Maricopa county in 1876, 1882 and 1886 as a resident of Phoenix,"

look at the fact you just posted , he was there in 1880 not in 1881 there in 1882 not there in 1883-1884-1885....

if i am right one winter killing the two soilders in 1883 , one winter killing the pospector in 1884,and one winter closeing and covering over the mine .in 1885 ..


 than he shows up again ....in 1886...

if this is case than wiser could have been killed in 1877 early or late we dont know how long they worked the mine togather .. that would explan why the dutchman did not say anything about wiser to dick holmes . it happened in the same year he found the mine . that would mean wiser only work the mine with the dutchman part of one winter ...or a few winters at best between the years of 1877-1879 seeing how the dutchman shows up in 1880 cenus ...we have a more clear time line than we know we have .. IMHO ...

an no in fact the wagon trail i found is only about 240 ft long and goes from the tunnle area to a near by mt and goes to about 2/3 of the  way up that mt and the dirrection it goes would leave it going off a 100 ft cliff.. i dont know about them but i would not try to build a road in that dirrection when it could have gone around the mt easyer,  this is not a road . it can not go anywhere beyond where it is . in ether dirrection !

besides that i know for a fact the wagon trail it self must have been made some time between the 1500's and 1700's . why you ask,  because there are tall caitus between the wheel markes . they are at lest 300 years old or older , the wheel markes are about  1 inch deep and are some what over grown to the eye as stated already . we walked right past them ... but i beleave the wagon trail could not have been in used very long at all .. what it was used for .. you got me .. it dosent make sence so far ...if they were takeing something from the tunnle to point B  what and why . point B is going no where that i can tell yet . fact there is no way off that mt in sight . so it is ether going on that mt or stops for some reason ... if i was building a road this is not very smart to build it frist with out seeing where the road could go .. so no IMHO this is not ether of the roads your talking about ...

the wheel marks are worn but not sharp so i got to think they are made by donkey cart...

maybe there is some kind of cave or tailing pile up there we have not seen yet from the surounding area ...who knows a vault or an out house lol ...

i am just being honest we just dont see any reason for this wagon trail . what ever was moved was very heavy , why the trail dose not turn sharply  and there are no sharp corners in the trail it self ...the trail is not overly steep ....

 

[that]

Merry Christmas everyone,

Hello Blindbowman,

Blindbowman wrote:
look at the fact you just posted , he was there in 1880 not in 1881 there in 1882 not there in 1883-1884-1885....
if i am right one winter killing the two soilders in 1883 , one winter killing the pospector in 1884,and one winter closeing and covering over the mine .in 1885 ..
 than he shows up again ....in 1886...
if this is case than wiser could have been killed in 1877 early or late we dont know how long they worked the mine togather .

Blindbowman, I don't feel so confident in assuming things as you are - the "Great Register" for instance did not get made up every single year, only every few years SO how can we ASSUME that Waltz was not at home in the years in between the publication of the Register?  We cannot!  You have accepted that tale of Waltz killing the two soldiers, even though that tale had been "moved" (shall we say), by the "poetic license" of one Barry Storm from the Four Peaks area to the Superstitions, and "enhanced" (to put it mildly) by Sims Ely.  Weiser was NOT murdered by Waltz, but was hit by Apaches and died of those wounds - though we can take from Waltz's own words that Weiser did not work with him that long before the Apaches struck.  Even more doubt can come in to focus too, as Ely pointed to a local swamper with a crippled foot as the probable murderer of the "two soldiers" so...are we SO sure that Waltz was a vicious, murdering man?  I have great doubts about the tales of Waltz being a murderer, with good reasons.

we have a more clear time line than we know we have

I don't see nearly as much in what can be proven as you seem to be concluding, from the info that we CAN prove, it appears that Waltz lived in Phoenix from at least 1876 until his death, with this 'base' he made numerous trips into the Superstitions; often obtaining supplies and tools at Florence.  Does it prove that he was NOT living in Phoenix in the years when there was no Great Register being published?  Think about it...

besides that i know for a fact the wagon trail it self must have been made some time between the 1500's and 1700's . why you ask

How can you estimate the age of cactus growing in the tracks?  Cactus do not grow in "rings" like trees, and as far as I know it would be tough to get an exact age for a cactus.  How large do you suppose a cactus that is only 100 years old would be, considering that there were two roads built through the Superstitions about that long ago, that were NOT completed and today would be running to nowhere?  Are you that sure the 'road' CAN NOT be one of the two LATER roads?

the wheel marks are worn but not sharp so i got to think they are made by donkey cart...

Now why would this mean the wheel marks must be from a donkey cart?  Could it not be from a horse-cart, or mule-wagon, or ox-cart?  How can you be so certain?

I wish I had your optimism and felt sure enough to make conclusions on such evidence - personally I have made errors in the past by making such leaps of logic which proved wrong later.  Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

i was told that the oldest one vs size and diameter of it arms and trunk vs the number of arms is how they judged .. the olest being no more than 350-400 years in age , the largest we saw was about 27 ft high and a diameter of about 26 inches circumfince ageing about 350-360 years old in our guess  if the ageing was correctly done ...still makeing the wagon trail more tham med to early 1800's and most likely older than that ...judgeing the deepth and wear of the trail makeing me guess the med 1700's to late 1500's maybe even early 1500's in reality vs the weather and tempure changes of the area it self ... and yes IMHO or my closes guess ...

Greetings,
Blindbowman, do you know of any cactus in Arizona (or anywhere in the southwest USA) that is over 300 years old, that can be PROVEN to be that old?  From what I read, no cactus in the US lives that long. 

I get the impression this is a bit of a 'quest' for you personally, and don't want to discourage you from your pursuit.  The case to support the whole Holmes version of events is not just thin and circumstantial, there are many parts that are just hard to swallow - like the women, children, cattle, sheep etc being in the Peralta party, when we cannot prove that ANY Peraltas were in the Superstitions prior to 1891.  It is SO easy to mis-identify and mis-interpret the bits of evidence that do exist in the Superstitions too - like the roads and wheel ruts, which you have not proven NOT to be one of the two LATER roads.  You saw large cactus growing in the roads, so have estimated the age as between 1700 to even 1500; is it not possible those cactus are only 100 or 120 years old? 
(Wheel ruts in the Superstitions, one of the two roads built in the 1880-1890s)

I guess what I am getting at is that if you were to put your abilities to work in a different approach, I think you would have greater success.  The first step would be to at least question the veracity of the whole Holmes version of events, which is at variance with some known facts (we know of several lies in that version, and doesn't that trouble you about his whole story?  Why did Holmes include lies?) but if you are dead-set on believing that version, (I get that impression) it is an uphill battle to try to prove it especially when it comes to getting those necessary treasure trove permits etc.  As far as the wheel ruts are concerned, I suggest that you try to find a map that shows the locations of the two later aborted roads and be sure that what you have found is NOT one of those - I suspect that it is but was not with you and don't know the location of the two roads so it is up to you to find out for certain.  If it is absolutely certain that it is NOT one of the later roads, then more research work is needed to try to identify just who made it and when.  I would be very surprised if it were to prove to be older than 1880, (there is virtually no evidence of Spanish in the Superstitions, those "spanish heiroglyphics" were created by an idiot who lived in the twentieth century, the same person I now believe responsible for those "Peralta stone maps") but if it is, the next step is to find exactly what the road runs TO. 
("Spanish heiroglyphics" created/altered by author Barry Storm to "fit" with his stories)


There will need to be more research on other points as well, such as the legendary "nephew" of Waltz, there has to be some record of his existence and probably of his going "Missing" if the tale of his murder is actually true.  There were newspapers in Arizona in the 1800s so it is possible to look it up.  Finding proof of the Peraltas being involved in the Superstitions in 1847 or anytime is going to be quite a task, many a Dutch-hunter has gone searching for this proof and failed to find any!  Then there is the problem of the two soldiers - perhaps there is a SECOND set of two soldiers who were murdered, and it is just a "coincidence" that there were two soldiers murdered in the Four Peaks region in the very same time period, (and yes I do have their names) which went un-reported anywhere until the treasure-hunter authors got involved but personally, I doubt that too.  Even Sims Ely could not find any sort of a NAME to those "two soldiers" who were supposedly murdered by Waltz, but perhaps you will have better luck.

In short good luck and good hunting to you, I fear that you are headed for a snipe hunt with no snipes by trusting that work of fiction from Holmes but if you have a good time doing it, and can find enough evidence to satisfy yourself then who am I to try to talk you out of it!  Good luck, I hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Jumping in here for a second...Oroblanco I know you specifially addressed Blindbowman regarding the age of the cactus, but I wish to interject something here. Scientific evidence indicates that creosote bush is the oldest living plant on the planet.  Not being familiar with the area around the Superstition Mountains, I don't know if creosote bush grows in the region, but if it did...creosote may help in dating the road that bbm talks about.  Perhaps he should look for creosote bushes growing in the road, rather than cacti?

Here's a link to read all about creosote...it's not a particularly long article:  http://www.friendsofsaguaro.org/creosote.html

Treasure Tales that is a great idea - perhaps that set of wheel ruts can be dated after all?
Oroblanco

thanks TT i have seen them in that area but i will check to see if they are growing between the wheel marks ...

Oro . i think you may have the wrong idea about what i doing . these leeds are only a very small part of the directions i am working . its like trying to under stand  a larger puzzle that you dont know what it looks like or how large the size is . or what it is . all data is evalueated on many levels . often putting parts of data in hold untill finding any way they can add to any given direction yet not fiting them in place unless they do in fact fit ... i agree the dick Holmes was a dick ... and for most part i dont beleave a word of the acound but  it dose fit what i am working on at the time ...i would much rather injoy the facts known but in the case of the LDM and the jesuits little facts or evidence remain open to the public as well as many lost in the area of the true locations of these sites ..

i am looking into investing a large amont of hard work, time and money into my research ...and even if i dont work the way most do i get evidence that is worth the time and hard work ... if i do not find evidence i will walk away  .. its as simple as that .....

you want my honest insight to the dick holmes acount i could blow holes in it for days . yet i can also see some value hiden with in the words ... and yes agree there are better leeds in the legend ....

thats why i was researching the tayopa treasure trove legend ....

some things in one acount of that legend solve or given logicial reasons to why things happen in this legend that dont make much logic untill those things in that acont aline with this legend ...maybe they are just odd peices of logic .. than again they may not be .. they may fit because they are part of the same puzzle and most dont know it or relate the two legends i didnt in fact...

we are still 19 days later finding things in our photos that we did not see or know when we were in the mts at the time the photos were taken ... in fact we are haveing some real fun peiceing things back togather ...we in fact climbed down the bridge area and never knew it was a bridge at the time yet me and my brother remember climbing down the side of it ...lol ...

the wagon trail you showed is not the one i saw it is deeper and about the right size and width of the wheels is right ...

in fact we learn something we had not known from the photos , when we alined the place where the cameras did not work they in line with the tunnle area and when the camera did work the i was blocked from seeing the tunnle by a mt ....what was funny was we were able to locate the tunnle area down to a about 35ft and have a bearing line to it now because of those odd factors about the photos ...

is this a normal why i would think of pinpionting a lost site ...hell no ... but it did ...

you dont even want to know the toys i am looking at right now ...

i have 3 of the mts fully pictured in sets of photos on the wall ,and before i am done i will have about 10 of the mts fully layed out at one time ...

i think i got like photos of 17 mts so far from within 3 miles of weavers needle...

and Oro i agree the peralta have nothing to little at all to do with the LDM IMHO

i have stated i beleave Kino made the stones . what peralta knew latin and could read and write latin ? thats my piont !Kino not only knew how to read and write latin he was a teacher trained by the roman (vadicain) i dont think that was spelled right but you get the idea i hope ...

to think the peralta's made the stones Is dum IMHO ...they should have been called the Kino stones and mark my words when its all over thats who made them .. but i will keep an open mind if i find evidence to prove other wise ....

we are going to take a metal detector and check the nephew site frist before looking for any signs of human bone in the site ...

even if it is a pain in you know where i still agree the mts are beautfull and if we are to hunt  and seek what we do not know ,let us see the beauty of the mts and respect it for others far into future ...

it dose always turn out the way we think it will . often the known is just that unknown till we find a way to know it fffor what it is ... can it hide from me ... good question i will have fun trying to answer that question .. maybe it can .maybe it cant !

but as far as i can tell the leeds vanish threw the years and diging them back out of the unknow of the past is like fishing when you are blind,... lol take the fish off the hook is ez . knowing what you have is the real hard part to under stand . not seeing and trying to beleave is much like beleaveing in GOD ...

dont try to under stand the unknown or jump in as i do ...i can only reach in and show you what i found ..

what is it . its what you beleave it is untill i find prof it is what i beleave it is ...


i hope we both enjoy the path ...

[the whole point of treasure hunting, to have fun!]

Greetings Blindbowman,

BB wrote: in fact we are haveing some real fun peiceing things back togather

Then it IS worth your while and that is the whole point of treasure hunting, to have fun! 

and Oro i agree the peralta have nothing to little at all to do with the LDM IMHO

i have stated i beleave Kino made the stones . what peralta knew latin and could read and write latin ? thats my piont !

A super point - indeed what Peralta knew Latin and could read and write in that dead language?  The folks who believe the so-called Peralta stones were made by Peraltas seem to ignore that fact.  Father Kino was only one of a number of Jesuit priests who lived and worked in what was then Pimeria Alta/Sonora, and they had "neophytes" - native Indios who were learning to become priests (usually Pimas but also Opatas) who would likely also have learned to read and write in Latin, at least in a rudimentary way.

Having said that, I have become convinced that the Peralta stones are a fraud, and have hinted at who/whom is a good suspect for the perpetrator of this fraud.  This fellow is known to have altered ancient Indian petroglyphs and added "Spanish heiroglyphics" to several sites in the Superstitions, to provide "proof" for his stories.  This fellow had the support (including financial) of a well-known senator, and apparently strongly linked to a rather odd club known as the Phoenix Dons.  They maintain a club camp site on the edge of the Superstitions, and "coincidentally" these "Peralta stones" were "discovered" not that far from their camp site.  I would not recommend the stones to anyone as good clues to find any kind of treasure, unless it is just the "treasure" of the hunt, which is the real treasure anyway but for someone hoping to find actual valuable artifacts or lost mines, those stones are a great map to find heartbreak, anguish and disappointment. 

Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco

[7 miles]

Oroblanco

Having said that, I have become convinced that the Peralta stones are a fraud, and have hinted at who/whom is a good suspect for the perpetrator of this fraud.  This fellow is known to have altered ancient Indian petroglyphs and added "Spanish heiroglyphics" to several sites in the Superstitions, to provide "proof" for his stories.  This fellow had the support (including financial) of a well-known senator, and apparently strongly linked to a rather odd club known as the Phoenix Dons. They maintain a club camp site on the edge of the Superstitions, and "coincidentally" these "Peralta stones" were "discovered" not that far from their camp site. 

You don't find it odd that the "Fellow" never mentioned the stone maps in any of his writings prior to the Life Magazine article about them in 1964 or Mitchell's book about them in 1965?  The only time he ever mentioned them was in the last revision of Thunder God's Gold in 1967.  (Do you believe he would have let someone else have the "Scoop" on them if he had known about them first?) Did you see him alter any petroglyphs or heiroglyphics yourself? Are we to believe that you think HE was fluent in Latin?

The stones were found about 7 miles from the site of the Don's camp. Please define what you mean by "not that far from their camp site"


I would not recommend the stones to anyone as good clues to find any kind of treasure, unless it is just the "treasure" of the hunt, which is the real treasure anyway but for someone hoping to find actual valuable artifacts or lost mines, those stones are a great map to find heartbreak, anguish and disappointment.

You appear to have experienced some heartbreak, anguish and disappointment over the stones which have lead  you to conclude that they are frauds. Nothing unusual about that. The grapes are always sour for those that cannot reach them, but there is no need to belittle the name of a brother treasure hunter or a fine organization  like the Phoenix Don's just to be able to express your opinion.

IMHO, your own personal disappointment over your failure to solve the stones does not justify the level you stoop to in your efforts to discredit them.


Blazer

[low resolution]

This is a followup post for JSCOTTWOOD concerning the low resolution photography of selected areas in the Superstition Wilderness as seen on Google Earth maps.



JSCOTTWOOD

Are you saying that the area inside the red box below is low resolution and everything outside of it is high resolution by way of accident or oversight of some kind?

The "Holes" in the high resolution photography are very curious to me.

Blazer

The resolution differences are curious, aren't they?  Hmmmm, makes you wonder why.  Very interesting......

[NO]

Greetings Blazer and everyone,

Blazer wrote:
You don't find it odd that the "Fellow" never mentioned the stone maps in any of his writings prior to the Life Magazine article about them in 1964 or Mitchell's book about them in 1965?  The only time he ever mentioned them was in the last revision of Thunder God's Gold in 1967.  (Do you believe he would have let someone else have the "Scoop" on them if he had known about them first?) Did you see him alter any petroglyphs or heiroglyphics yourself? Are we to believe that you think HE was fluent in Latin?

The stones were found about 7 miles from the site of the Don's camp. Please define what you mean by "not that far from their camp site"

Gee no coincidence that this 'fellow' mentioned them at all right?  Especially if he had created them.  By "not that far" I mean it is not that far - if they had been discovered say on the NORTH side of the Superstitions or at least farther away than seven miles, I would not have said "not that far".  Heck I can walk seven miles in a few hours.  And yes, I do believe this person would have let someone else have the "scoop" on "discovering" his work.  It makes sense, compared to if he had been the first to 'announce' them, people might wonder about it.  What kind of question is that, "did you see him alter any petroglyphs yourself"?  My source for making that statement is Tom Kollenborn, who reported it in an article published a few years ago - in his words, several old timers who pre-dated this "person of interest" actually witnessed him adding the word "ORO" and altering ancient Indian petroglyphs.  There are photos of the sunburst stone, for instance, which are older than the period when this "person" was at work, and there are NO Spanish anything on the stones.  Look it up, or just go ahead and believe what that person wanted you to.  As to whether he was fluent in Latin, I do not know what his level of education was, but it seems very likely that he had help, as he did with publishing his first book.  You don't think that all of the petroglyphs, "hieroglyphs" etc in the Superstitions are 'virgin' - un-altered by modern jerks, do you?

As to how I view that person, well I am not sure I would even count him as a fellow treasure hunter really.  He was a writer first and foremost as he said himself.  Heck I enjoy a tall tale, legends and lore as much as any guy, they make for great entertainment; there is nothing wrong with being a writer or teller of such tales, and I do not think any less of such a writer for having put a story/stories to paper.  What I DO have a big problem with such mixing, confabulating, embellishing of facts with fiction, is when it is put forth as if it were all truth and fact.  In my opinion that is deliberately misleading the readers for the profit of the author.  If that person we have referred to had written his books and articles in the belief that it was all true, it might be at least a bit forgive-able, but there is no reason to think that.

Blazer also wrote:
You appear to have experienced some heartbreak, anguish and disappointment over the stones which have lead  you to conclude that they are frauds. Nothing unusual about that. The grapes are always sour for those that cannot reach them, but there is no need to belittle the name of a brother treasure hunter or a fine organization  like the Phoenix Don's just to be able to express your opinion.

IMHO, your own personal disappointment over your failure to solve the stones does not justify the level you stoop to in your efforts to discredit them.


Well then your perception of the appearances are about as far off as it could possibly be.  I have experienced NO disappointment, dis-illusionment, anguish, heartbreak or any kind of let-down over these stones, in ANY way.  I have listed here in several threads exactly why I became convinced they were frauds, not due to any type of failure to "decipher" their "mysteries" or codes etc.  What possible gain can a person make from decoding some clues from a FRAUD?  Satisfaction of having figured out what the hoaxer was trying to encode in his fraud?  Sorry to point this up, but really my friend I have had absolutely NO type of dis-appointment with these frauds.  I have not even bothered to start working out what it is supposed to be a code or map of, for the single most important reason (for me anyway) that I am convinced they are fraudulent.  Would you, Blazer, waste your time working out a secret code on a FAKE?  If so, why?

I also have not intended to cast aspersions on a "brother treasure hunter" but will not encourage others to pursue what I am convinced are frauds, unless they really are out for the fun of it, because if they are serious and hope to find real treasure or lost mines, a FRAUD is NOT going to be of any help to them, and might end up causing a "brother treasure hunter" to become totally discouraged with ALL treasure hunting and quit the game altogether - it is FAR better for a treasure hunter to follow up genuine evidence and leads than to waste time and efforts trying to work out FAKES.   The Phoenix Dons may well be a fine organization, they do have very nice tours etc but remember they are not necessarily DEDICATED TO TRUTH - read their own public statement of their "mission"!!!  Legend and lore are great for entertainment, NOT for finding lost mines and treasures! 

I have experienced disappointment in trying to discuss those stones with fellow treasure hunters; I think that most if not all treasure hunters are by nature the type of person who examines all evidence, sorts out the false from the true, checks what facts can be checked, follows up leads, but where these Peralta stones are concerned there is a level of "belief" involved that is beyond my ability to argue any kind of facts to change that belief.  They are virtually an article of faith for some treasure hunters, no logic can sway them, not pointing out how unlikely they are, nor such points of evidence as the utterly wrong style of the writing can change that faith in them as genuine maps to lost treasures and mines.   So yes, I have had some disappointment, but a disappointment in some of my fellow treasure hunters that seem to be un-willing to weigh out the facts versus that belief.   

Blazer I have to ask you this - would you encourage fellow treasure hunters to follow up on a fraudulent clue?  Would you want ME to do that?  I cannot in good conscience encourage anyone to follow up on a fraud; not if they are in hopes of finding treasures or lost mines.  I DO try to encourage fellow treasure hunters, but encourage them in pursuing genuine evidence and clues, NOT to follow up a dead end, false clue or set of false clues like these Peralta stones. 

In conclusion, my own "disappointment" with Peralta stones has never occurred, I will not be bothered to try to work out the "secrets" of FRAUDS and have not spent time on that - my "stooping" to some "low level" as you perceive it, has been an effort on my part to save fellow treasure hunters from wasting time and becoming discouraged with or disillusioned with treasure hunting due to these FRAUDS.  Do you really think I am trying to say "sour grapes" about fake stones?  Yeesh!     Hey sour grapes make good wine!      I have seen more than one treasure hunter QUIT after wasting time and effort on similar fraudulent "clues" and would rather not lose any brother treasure hunters to such crap.   There ARE very real and fantastically rich lost treasures and lost mines out there, just waiting for someone to find them, and there are FRAUDS made up by jerks to fool treasure hunters and attract attention.   If you believe the Peralta Stones are genuine, by all means go right ahead and try to "work out the secrets" and use them as "maps" to find treasures and lost mines, I will sure NOT try to stop you - but don't be real surprised when you fail to find anything by using them.   
Oroblanco

[It is tragic that men have altered the many petroglyphs of the Superstition Mountains]

Postscript for Blazer - here is that article written by Tom Kollenborn, 1989:
http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/1icto1.htm

A direct quote:

It is tragic that men have altered the many petroglyphs of the Superstition Mountains, or at least certain ones. Many of the markings associated with the Jesuits, the Peraltas and the Lost Dutchman Mine are suspect. There is no reasonable proof in existence that supports the wanderings of Jesuits in the Superstition Wilderness Area. Furthermore it is difficult to find information to support the existence of a prospecting and mining family named Peralta who worked rich gold mines in the Superstition Wilderness Area. For the most part the Peralta scenario was developed by early and contemporary chroniclers of Superstition Mountain lore.

The Superstition Wilderness contains thousands of petroglyphs, stone markings and stone writings of which many are from an unknown source. Lets examine one of the best known sites in the Superstition Wilderness. On the south end of Black Top Mountain (Mesa) in the Superstition Wilderenss there are a set of stone writings that suggest they are Spanish in origin. The drawings are of a sunburst and the Spanish word, "ORO". These signs have been the subject of controversy for more than fifty years. Thousands of dollars have been invested in a variety of mining schemes to find gold on this mountain as a direct results of these stone markings.

Barry Storm, an early writer on the subject of the Peralta Mines and the Lost Dutchman Mine, claimed these were Spanish markings (hieroglyphics). He further claimed these Spanish markings indicated gold was buried in the vicinity. Hundreds of prospect holes in the vicinity attest to belief there was Spanish gold buried in the region. Prior to Barry Storm's writings about the Superstitions very few people were aware of the existence of these stone markings on Black Top Mountain. The markings have been examined by many people over the years and most believe the markings to be a hoax. The first published photographs of these markings were taken in the early 1930's. Storm was the first man to interpret these markings as Spanish hieroglyphics. This was definitely a misnomer. The name Spanish Hieroglyphics remained with the site on forest service maps until 1979, when this mis-interpretation was finally removed. Two old-timers, one being William A. Barkley, who predated Storm in the area claimed Storm altered the markings on Black Top. They said Storm added the two "ORO" markings. There are photographs of the sunburst prior to 1937 in which the "ORO" is obviously missing.


end quote, from Rock Writing, A Lost Language, by Tom Kollenborn, 1989

So NO, obviously, I did not witness John Clymenson altering the petroglyphs and adding things, if you care to take this up with Mr. Kollenborn for stooping so low as to cast aspersions on our friend Clymenson, please feel free to do so.

Oroblanco

Jumping into the fray again (I just can't help myself).  Surely you cannot discount a person's credibility based largely (or solely) on his means of enrichment.  The famous Earle Stanley Garner of Perry Mason fame was first an attorney, then he turned to writing fiction, and then he had enough money to search for lost and cached treasures himself.  One activity did not exclude the other, merely enabled the other.  Although, I do agree that much of what has been written about the treasure of the Superstition Mountains is overblown at best and outright lies at worst. 

Now, bowing out again. 

Greetings Treasure Tales!

Just think about it, we have a suspect here who was a promoter of the Superstition legends, one who was SEEN altering and creating fake Spanish inscriptions, carving this fake Spanish into stones; a person who was trying to sell as many books as possible, movie deals etc.  This same person is known to have at least "embellished" the facts in his books, and to have mixed in events from other regions and myths as well.  This same person is in the area prior to the discovery of the Peralta stones too, and there is no record of them prior to their discovery in 1956.  He was good friends with Senator Goldwater, who financially backed his first book (at least) to the point that he adopted his first name as a pen name; this same Senator was a prominent member of the aforementioned Phoenix Dons Club, whose stated mission is the promotion and continuance of the legends and lore of the Superstition Mountains.  So we have a person who is known to have created fake Spanish treasure maps carved in stone, in the Superstition mountains, in the time period just prior to the finding of the Peralta stones, this person had support from powerful and influential persons who had similar interests in promoting the Superstition mountains.  The fact that Storm wrote pulp fiction has little to do with it, except that he published fiction and labeled it as absolute truth and fact.  I cannot think of a stronger suspect for having created the fraudulent Peralta Stones than this person, who had motive, ability and opportunity - and is known to have created fake Spanish stone inscriptions and maps in the Superstitions in the period.  Can you think of a stronger suspect? 

Oroblanco

Hi Randy and Happy New Year!

Boy I wish I knew exactly what stone inscriptions existed before Storm and his ilk (unfortunately he is NOT the only one who has altered existing petroglyphs or made fakes in the Superstitions) did their dirty work.  They really muddied the waters for everyone after them.  Just my opinion here but IN MY OPINION we have to view ALL stone inscriptions/petroglyphs/heiroglyphs/carvings etc in the Superstitions as possibly the work of fakers, or at least possibly altered by fakers.  It is healthy to have a skeptical view of such 'signs' anyway, look before we leap so to speak!

Roy ~ Oroblanco

[clues]

Oroblanco and Mrs. Oroblanco, I know little about the author in question.  Merely trying to state that a fiction writer can be credible.  As far as this Barry Storm/Clymenson person is concerned...I know nothing about him.  Still, if he is the liar/manipulator you claim, his writing might contain a grain of truth/information nonetheless, even if that grain only leads the reader/dupe to learn what is not the truth.  Process of elimination, as it were.

I do know that many famous treasure stories and clues have been altered, manipulated, damaged, deleted, or ruined by unscrupulous or unwitting people.  But it is up to the treasure hunter to determine what to believe and what to ignore.  You can lead a horse to water.............

Treasuretales,
The movie "Lust for Gold" is based on Barry Storms book "Thunder God's Gold". Cool movie, though historically laughable for authenticity. Julia Thomas as a white woman, having an affair with Dutchie! hahaha!!!

I didn't get a picture of it, but another rock near the picture I took above reads "Lust for Dust". Thought that was funny. 

dj, I know very little about the Lost Dutchman Mine and all that is related to it.  I find these types of treasure legends interesting, sometimes laughable, and always entertaining.  I spent one week each year--for a period of 25 years--looking for a "lost mine" and finally had to call it quits.  The frustration was getting to me.  (Well, the frustration and my rheumatiod arthritis.)  Now I prefer to read about the exploits of others in their quests for a big payoff.  I'm perfectly content with small payoffs. 

Happy New Year!

Happy New Year!
What mine did you search for?
I can tell you for sure the Dutchie mine is still out there, somewhere. Some of the stuff is funny, but there is a lot of truth out there, even in public books/documents.

IF the Lost Dutchman Mine exists, it will probably be found by some 12 year old kid who goes off trail when hiking with his family.  I can't count the number of discoveries made in similar accidental ways. 

I searched for the Lost Mine, that was its name.  In CA.  I'm glad I tried, but I'd never take on such an undertaking again. 

So you are one of the people actively seeking the LDM?   If so, I wish you luck and good health. 

Oroblanco,

Ok, Let's look a little closer at what Tom K. actually said. In the first place HE didn't see Storm alter any writings himself either, and is going on second hand information he got from someone else.

Prior to Barry Storm's writings about the Superstitions very few people were aware of the existence of these stone markings on Black Top Mountain.


He states that "VERY FEW" people knew about the rock writings prior to Storm's publication of them. I take that to mean that "SOME" people DID know about them. So THEY DO PREDATE STORM!

William A. Barkley, who predated Storm in the area claimed Storm altered the markings on Black Top.


Even Barkley admitted that they predated Storm. Now we have to consider the possibility of Barkley's motivation for discrediting Storm. It is well known that there was no love lost between Barkley and Storm. Barkley didn't like the competition Storm presented as a Treasure Hunter, and was even more upset with him for publishing information that brought other treasure hunters into the mountains that offered even more competition. The more people there were in the mountains, the bigger the chance that someone besides Barkley himself would find the mine/treasure that Barkley was searching for, and the more his cattle were scattered all over creation, making roundups more difficult for him. It was in Barkley's own best interest to discredit Storm in any way he could. Tom K. is simply reporting history as it was told to him. I have no doubt that he is telling it just as he heard it it. Tom's credibility is not at issue, but Barkley's IS.


Blazer I have to ask you this - would you encourage fellow treasure hunters to follow up on a fraudulent clue?  Would you want ME to do that?  I cannot in good conscience encourage anyone to follow up on a fraud; not if they are in hopes of finding treasures or lost mines.  I DO try to encourage fellow treasure hunters, but encourage them in pursuing genuine evidence and clues, NOT to follow up a dead end, false clue or set of false clues like these Peralta stones. color]

I agree with you 100% on this ORO. But I have not observed anyone encouraging anyone else to pursue anything. I certainly haven't. My objection is in the way you form your conclusions and attempt to sway others to your way of thinking. You have no evidence to support your belief that the stones are fakes, so you go to extremes to fabricate it, and try to pass off your opinions as facts. All the way back to Storm's earliest writings, he included treasure signs and symbols. You ever compare his signs and symbols to the ones on the stone maps? THEY DO NOT MATCH! None of them! Don't you think that if Storm had anything to do with the creation of the stone maps, he would have at least seen to it that SOME of his signs and symbols would have been used on them?


If you believe the Peralta Stones are genuine, by all means go right ahead and try to "work out the secrets" and use them as "maps" to find treasures and lost mines, I will sure NOT try to stop you - but don't be real surprised when you fail to find anything by using them.   
Oroblanco

There are over 100 so called treasure maps to something that is supposed to be in the Superstition Mountains. To date, NONE of them have been known to lead anyone to any fortune. Many of them are just poor reproductions of an original or modified versions of it. At least the stone maps remain unchanged over the years, and nobody has to worry about whether or not they have an accurate copy of them to work with. That alone makes them the best maps to work with in my opinion.

The best anyone can do in debating the validity of the stones is to use his own judgement to evaluate the validity of the arguments for or against them. I find your arguments against them to be based on personal opinions, supported by nothing more than biased conclusions that were formed on other peoples personal opinions.

Of course, those are just my opinions and don't carry any more weight than yours do. The difference is... I know that, and you haven't figured it out yet.

There is no evidence that Storm (or any other 20th century treasure hunter), had anything to do with the creation of the stone maps, but recorded history and basic logic indicate that he did not. As I mentioned earlier, if he had... It is safe to assume that "HIS" own published treasure signs and symbols would be all over them, AND THEIR NOT!


I will include a copy of Storm's Treasure Signs below and let you see how many of them you can find on the stone maps.

I will admit... I find it curious that both of the symbols (The sunburst and the word ORO) found on Blacktop ARE found in Storm's list of signs and symbols, but that has no bearing on the validity of the stone maps.

Blazer

So you are one of the people actively seeking the LDM?   If so, I wish you luck and good health. 

Why yes, yes I am I believe that if you seek, you shall find. It's been proven to me over and over again, so now I seek Dutchie's mine. If I never find it, at least I got some incredible hiking experience and I learned more about the history of this area than I ever would have. Researching this thing I've managed to learn all about the settling of not only Phoenix, but other neighboring towns as well, like Wickenburg. I also learned a lot about the names for places, why they are and such, and why things are where they are. Did you know Dutchie used to work in the mine that is cause for the creation of Wickenburg? The money from this mine also is responsible for the early settlement of Phoenix. This is the Vulture mine of course, named after it's finder was being followed by circling vultures. Dutchie was also part of the expedition of explorers and prospectors who originally came to this area. This kinda stuff is amazing to me. There is so much more.

This is fascinating info.  Thanks for providing it.  As I said, I know nothing about the LDM, but I like to hear the tales.  My brother lives in Wickenburg.  I keep trying to wangle an invitation from him, but he doesn't get the hint or doesn't want to get the hint.  So you are doing this search alone or are you part of a search party? 

I used to hike alone mostly, but haven't done that in a while. It's kinda nice having someone with you, you know. It can get dangerous back there, especially off trails 

Yes, it's nice to have a companion, especially when in the backcountry.  Sometimes I go treasure hunting with friends, sometimes alone, but I almost always prefer having a buddy along who has similar interests, abilities and resources.  Then the trip is usually twice as fun and productive.  Good luck in your search.  (Now I'll have to learn the history of Wickenburg so I can create additional incentives for an invitation from my brother.   ;))

Mrs. Oro,

It is apparent to me, and I am sure a few others here, that your information on the Stones, etc., are sorely lacking in evidence that others here, DO have.

It is highly unlikely that that you or anyone else has any information that is not already in my files.
It is more probable that what you have in your evidence file, I have filed under fiction in my library.

You have no way of knowing, if you do not know the evidence that a conclusion is based on, how anyone forms their conclusions.

If your so-called evidence is not presented with your conclusions, then it cannot be evaluated for it's validity. If it cannot be evaluated for it's validity, it cannot be accepted as evidence.

Barry Storm was no Saint, didn't tell everything he knew, was even caught bending things a little now and then to conceal certain things that he was still working on. But, unlike many authors, he was actively seeking the "mine" at the time he was publishing books. He had permanant camps in the mountains where he lived the legend night and day. Few people if ANY have ever sacrificed as much as he did in pursuit of the Gold of the Superstitions! He left his mark high on the wall through hard work and dedication. So high that no more than one or two names will ever appear that high with his. No amount of criticism or accusations, be they true or false, will ever change that.

There are to names in American history that someone will always stand up and fight for when they are attacked. On a national level the name is John Wayne. On a local level the name is John T. Clemenson.

The stone maps may be real, they may be fakes, we may never know which. But, to pin their existence on Barry Storm in any way shape or form, is going to take a LOT of evidence, spread out on the open table for everyone to see and evaluate. I suspect that you already know that your evidence would not hold up against that kind of examination or you would have already presented it.

BTW... Why did Mr. Oro send you to do his responding instead of responding himself?

I have never seen him lost for words before. Was the corner getting a little too tight for him to wiggle in?

Blazer

even up here john wayne is a saint not a bs agent

LOL . you may be miss lead somewhat . in fact i am not looking for the LDM .. i am looking for what i saw in 1979 . is that the LDM it fits the discription . but as i stated i am not looking for the LDM.. only by way of they clues and evidence have i had to stop and look at the LDm's evidence and clues .. i found many clues and facts that say what i saw could have been the LDM . and all of what i have found is not from dick holmes 's acount or the DM legend it self . it is only my need to define what i saw in 1979 . finding the LDM or the tayopa or any other mine is not why i am there at times . i like the treasure hunting and all that . but as you already know i am hunting 4-5 miles from everyone else ..LOL ether i am totally lost or what i saw is not the LDM or it is and everyone else is looking 4-5 miles from where it is at . but as i stated i am not looking for the LDM ...

i have to respect the clues of the LDM and the maps and stones only for the reason they do locate what i saw ....beyond that who knows what i saw .. i dont even know what i saw yet . only what it looked like to me ...


as far as writers and drawings . they are not evidence IMHO .. as well as the dick holmes story but i have too look at the dick holmes story in another light than all of you because the locate i saw dose match parts of the acount ... why who knows why ?

i am planing my 3rd trip and it is costing me  $15,000. so far but the evidence is being collected is real and i beleave i will find and define what i saw in 1979 ...


LDM or not !

who cares what some unknown person   wrote on the rocks back who knows when .

thats just not evidence to me ...

i think what i am looking for has nothing to do with book sales lol i hope it never dose ...

as far as the Don's club .as long as they dont confront me they can be what ever they want to be ...

i went to the superstitions twice and had no need for a gun . know i think thats has changed ...

not because of who i am because of who watched what i was doing ....

if anyone thinks they can go in the mt's and find these sites with out anyone watching there are fools ....IMHO

my point i saw a young man walk by on the trai out .. i went to check out a large rock about 150 ft away . as i set there watching the young man clear the top of a mt i saw another man hikeing behind him just out of sight .. yet when the young man stoped so did the other man ..

why . i dont want to know ! the young man passed us with no intrest in what we were doing or where we were .. yet the other man never saw me .and i watched him walk past about a 100 ft away from where i was seting at the time ....i  took his picture and he never saw me even move ...

my point is this area is very very vast and unless you have a reason or some thing to guide you dont go out there . was the other man lost and did not want to scare the young man by walking up to him out in the med of no where or was he watching where the young man had gone ...?

i told my brother at one time i had senced two apache in the rocks above where we were . we ask me how do you know they are apache . i lol and said i know ....they were speaking to each other in wilderness sounds the hole time . i know i speak the same way ... just not the same sounds as they did ...

they could be reading this and say nothing they could read this and no i knew they were there ...

my point is who is watching who ?

those drawings have not moved and yet they mean nothing to the rocks they are on . only give meaning to others willing to read them . what you translate them to mean is not allways what the one that wrote them was saying ....and who knows if any one changed them or there meaning from than to now ?

i have a lot to do . you guys take care ...

Hey Blazer,

Don't take it all out on Oroblanco. It may be that he is just a pawn in the big picture of what is going on. This whole idea of Storm creating the stone maps was started by a guy that goes by the username of Joe Ribaudo on another website. He bases it all on his opinion that the Witch on one of the maps looks like Chuck Aylor, and misc other such nonsense. He goes on to imply that Aylor, De Grazia and Storm all conspired to create the stone maps. There is no real evidence behind any of it. It is all a figment of this Ribaudo Character's very creative imagination. He views himself as some kind of expert on every topic (you know the type), but if you follow his posts, it is easy to see that his only goal is to smear the names of well known people in an attempt to make room on the wall of LDM history for his own. He has even suggested that Tom Kollenborn might have been involved with Storm and the others in the act of creating the stone maps. There is not a single big name in the LDM legend (Dead or Alive) that he has not attempted to bring down in one way or another. Storm, Kollenborn, Corbin, Hatt, Feldman, Aylor, De Grazia... He has gone after them all! If you speak to any of the living big names that he has attacked, you will find that they don't feel very threatened by him. I don't think Storm would either.  

There are always people like Oroblanco and his Mrs. that will accept any information that fits in with what they want to believe, as factual information, no matter how ridiculous it is.

Keifer

Blazer, what in the world are you talking about??  I personally have stated that I do not believe in them either,  since their very existence belies logic.  You must admit that it is a big stretch of logic for anyone to make a map on separate stones when a hide or paper map is more convenient or concealable if necessary..

In all of my years of treasure hunting and research I haven't encountered a single other case.  I can understand on large rock or cliff,  but on a series of heavy stones which would require a couple of  burros to just move them ? 

I also question the causality of all being buried at the same spot, this negates an attempt to hide something lIke a mine  or whatever.

As for Oro and HIS spouse BETH, (smooch- shaddup ORO ) they do excellent and thorough research.and are both highly intelligent, especially BETH, who keeps  him in line.

I personally elect Reeves as the candidate, he had possibly the most to gain IF they had been found in time.

Tropical Tramp

Tropical Tramp

 

I am not sure if I believe in those maps or not my friend. I have good friends on both sides of that fence, and they are all passionate about their opinions. I usually try to avoid the subject whenever possible, because one day I will lean towards one side of the fence and the next day the other.  If I make too many posts about my opinions I could end up arguing with myself about them!  I would like nothing more than to get off this fence and make my stand on one side of it or the other. Some of the evidence in support of them is hard to overlook, but most of the evidence that calls them fakes is just as ridiculous as the "Storm created them" theory.


My post started out in response to the insane idea that Barry Storm was involved in making the stone maps, and I just drifted off into the rest of it
The paper and hide argument you bring up is good one that is also hard to overlook. Still, the stones DO exist and it took a lot of work to make them. They were never used in a known fraud, and as Gollum pointed out, the man that originally found them, believed in them 100%, and kept them hush-hush right up until his death. Facts are nice to have to work with when available, but when they aren't, you have to make observations of people's actions and make some logical deductions concerning those actions.

I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as,  to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps.  The answer must be all entangled in his “Secret” information that he cannot discuss in an open forum.


In all of my years of treasure hunting and research I haven't encountered a single other case.  I can understand on large rock or cliff,  but on a series of heavy stones which would require a couple of  burros to just move them ? 

I would rather have MY secret maps carved on something that I could carry away than on a large rock or cliff. A burro can carry a lot more than you might think. The whole set weighs less than 80 pounds. A Mule wouldn't even know they were there!

I also question the causality of all being buried at the same spot, this negates an attempt to hide something lIke a mine  or whatever.

Have to disagree with you again. I don't believe they were buried at all. I agree with the theory that they were lost there and sank into the ground during the monsoon rains. If they had been buried, The Latin heart and Stone Crosses should have been buried with them. The Latin heart was found (laying right on top of the ground) along the trail, in the same area, but not in the same spot as the other stones. The Stone crosses were found farther away along the same trail only partially buried. The symbols on the crosses and the Latin words on the heart are all the same as symbols used on the other stones. They were all found along the old Spanish trail (actually called that on some old maps) that runs from the Salt River through the Superstitions, to Florence Jct. to Florence, to Tucson and on into Mexico.

I personally elect Reeves as the candidate, he had possibly the most to gain a lot to gain IF they had been found in time.

Reavis!!! (The Baron of Arizona) Now there is the real kicker! I can't think of anyone that would have had more motive for making the maps than him. The problem with that thought is... Why didn't he send someone out to "accidentally" find them so they could have been entered into evidence? If he had put out all the effort to make them, why didn't he use them?

Tomorrow, I may be leaning towards the other side of the fence, but I will never give any consideration to the Idea that Storm was involved in making them.

Happy New year!

Blazer

Greetings Blazer and everyone,

Whew! This reply is going to be a long one.  I beg your indulgence, will try to answer all the points raised.

Blazer wrote:
You have no evidence to support your belief that the stones are fakes, so you go to extremes to fabricate it, and try to pass off your opinions as facts.

Proof that the Peralta stones are frauds?  What exactly constitutes proof of fraud, in your view?  We have the statements of Father Polzer as well as from three experts from Desert Archaeology Inc who all stated their opinion the stones are frauds; compared with a statement that the FBI "Believed" the stones were "at least 100 years old" however a bit of digging turns up the fact that the tests done in the 1960s were inconclusive - they could neither prove the stones to be recent manufacture (in which case they would have been seized as evidence of fraud on the part of MOEL Inc in that prosecution) nor over 100 years old, in which case the State could have seized them under the Antiquities Act.  I don't take the statements of four experts lightly, when they are in agreement.  Fabricating things?  A quite unfair accusation Blazer - please post EXACTLY those "fabrications" which you have accused me of posting? 

If you found an old coin and took it to an expert on old coins, who told you it was a genuine, very rare old coin - you would not have reason to question it right?  However when we get to these Peralta stones, it seems that when any expert does not agree that they must be genuine then we either ignore their views or attack them as biased for one reason or another.  Do you just dismiss the statements of Father Polzer and Desert Archaeology Inc?

Treasure maps are very seductive, alluring things that appeal to a treasure hunter on the deepest levels; however they are also so often flawed, erroneous or outright frauds that any serious treasure hunter MUST view all treasure maps with a rather skeptical, almost jaundiced eye.  When we come to the case of these Peralta stones, we have the stated opinions of four experts that they are frauds.  Judging for yourself is wise too - compare the writing style of the Peralta stones to known, genuine Mexican and Spanish inscriptions - if it looks WRONG then it very likely IS wrong. 

I will admit... I find it curious that both of the symbols (The sunburst and the word ORO) found on Blacktop ARE found in Storm's list of signs and symbols, but that has no bearing on the validity of the stone maps.

The fact that Barry Storm did have treasure symbols in his BOOK that match those on the MAPS is certainly not enough to remove him from all suspicion - he was surely smart enough not to use obvious marks which would prove his hand in the work, yet there it is - sunburst and ORO.  You seem to have missed the dagger/knife and the CROSS as well.  Note that he also mentioned "any horse or dog" and those pesky Peralta maps sure do have a horse don't they? 

Those who first had possession of the stone maps used them in searching, and found markings in the Superstitions which matched those on the stone maps - which certainly suggests the same hands having made them.  It is not possible to PROVE that Storm or anyone else created the Peralta stones, but there IS reason to be suspicious.  Barkley may have been biased, indeed, but remember Barkley was NOT the only witness to Storm's handiwork. The petroglyphs DID indeed pre-date Storm, but in fact we cannot today know what exactly they were!  Perhaps Storm was only cleaning the dirt or moss from the inscriptions?  However in at least one case, (the ORO next to the sunburst) we know that the ORO was not there prior to the time that Storm was in the Superstitions, and it WAS there after because photographs exist to prove it.  It is logical that the petroglyphs, prior to the altering and adding on, were very likely entirely the work of native peoples. 

Suppose the Peralta stones are genuine and I am totally wrong in concluding they are frauds.  Tumlinson and Clarence Mitchell surely thought they were real.  They used them for years, five years for Tumlinson (who quit his job as a policeman to search) and at least four years for Mitchell, so...what treasures or lost mines did they find by using them?  Exactly, ZERO.  So in an important way, it is irrelevant whether the stones are genuine or fraudulent, because those who have tried using them have found them to be of virtually no value or assistance in locating treasures and lost mines. The State of Arizona views them as "curiosities" which is perhaps the best term for them.

There are to names in American history that someone will always stand up and fight for when they are attacked. On a national level the name is John Wayne. On a local level the name is John T. Clemenson.
Hanh?  Barry Storm is on the same level, to you, as John Wayne?

BTW... Why did Mr. Oro send you to do his responding instead of responding himself?

I have never seen him lost for words before. Was the corner getting a little too tight for him to wiggle in?

Again, Hanh???  I have never "sent" Mrs Oro to do any responding FOR me.  For your information and edification, I do NOT get on T-net every, single night, or for that matter get on the Internet every single night!  Yeesh!  What did you think I was sitting at the computer, waiting to read your post? What corner?  Are you serious???

Greetings Keifer,
Keifer wrote:It may be that he is just a pawn in the big picture of what is going on. This whole idea of Storm creating the stone maps was started by a guy that goes by the username of Joe Ribaudo on another website.

HUH?  A pawn?  Under whose control?  I also have heard of Joe Ribaudo but had not heard his conclusion that Storm and others had created the stone maps - I don't see Aylor or DeGrazia (an artist who lived or lives in AJ, you can find some of his work online but nothing like those stone maps) being connected. I view Storm as the strongest suspect in creating those Peralta stones, but cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, and came to that view entirely on my own.

There are always people like Oroblanco and his Mrs. that will accept any information that fits in with what they want to believe, as factual information, no matter how ridiculous it is.
Geez Keifer, I could say that very same thing about folks like you!  You want to believe those Peralta stones are genuine maps to lost treasures/lost mines, and that Barry Storm recorded real historical events absolutely accurately, so any kind of evidence that doesn't agree with that idea you dismiss, and apparently anyone who doesn't believe in Storm and those pesky Peralta stones too.  Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

Blazer wrote: I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as,  to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps.  

Well Blazer, I thought we could keep this civil, but apparently not.  I don't pretend to be anyone else, don't have any secret identities, my real name and email and address are all public information.  If you expect that I or any member is going to post in public every bit of information they hold, you will be waiting a very long time.  Just for your information, as I mentioned, I don't get on T-net every single day or night, or the internet - so you might want to wait for a reply before ASSUMING things in the future.  You yourself have noticed TWO treasure signs from Storm's book that MATCH those on the stones, and missed several others (dagger, cross, horse) so you go ahead and explain it to me WHY we find that there ARE matches in Storm's book AND on those Peralta stones please?  I and others here have tried to present the reasons for holding those Peralta stones in high suspicion, and we have had FOUR experts state their opinions they were FRAUDS.  If you wish to believe they are genuine, that is your prerogative.

Tomorrow, I may be leaning towards the other side of the fence, but I will never give any consideration to the Idea that Storm was involved in making them.
Then you are expressing a personal bias which blinds you to one possible suspect.  This tendency to have a personal bias and not be willing to examine every source or witness will at the least result in your spending un-necessary time or the possibility of your being fooled - of course that is your choice.

I have not intentionally belittled anyone nor their attempts to solve the riddles; I have been appealing to the logic of our fellow treasure hunters.  If anything I have posted has been of any offense, a thousand apologies - no offense was intended.  To anyone who wishes to view the Peralta stones as genuine maps to treasures, lost mines etc as well as those who believe the Holmes manuscript version of events is truth, I say good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

And a very happy New Year to you all!

Oroblanco

apahe witches all them self believers its nohing but a ploy to sell books tales and bs, they all all are reincarnated  unbelivers who thinh this sht is for real, happy hunting

[On the subject of Fr. Polzer’s creditability…]

Good Morning Oroblanco,

Firs off, my sincere apologies for the comment suggesting that you may not be who you are representing yourself to be. I fully accept your clarification on that matter and stand corrected. Please extend my apologies to the Mrs. As well.

Now on to the business of responding to your most recent reply. Due to the number of issues it has grown into, and the depth of each one of them, I will keep this post on the subject of expert witnesses. Both Father Polzer’s and the University Prof’s opinions you speak of have been disputed many times elsewhere on the Internet in other forums. The most quoted arguments against them come from 3 different articles on desertusa.com in which BOTH the pro’s and con’s of the stone maps have been discussed at great depth and the weaknesses and biases of the “expert witness” testimonies have been exposed.

I will save you some time going through the lengthy forums and cut and past the relevant info below.  When we have reached an agreement on the strength or weakness of the expert witness testimonies you quote, we can move on the next point.


Blazer

On the subject of Fr. Polzer’s creditability… copied from: http://www.desertusa.com/mag02/sep/per_stone.html
Knowing very little about Father Polzer myself, I decided to do a little Internet research and see if I could find his comments on the Stone Maps on the Internet. My repeated attempts produced no results relating to the Maps, However. . . There is a lot of information pertaining to Father Polzer himself on the Internet. Contrary to Mr. Bott's beliefs, it appears that Father Polzer's opinion and credibility are often disputed, especially in cases where his conclusions might be a little self serving.

The following comments came from a court case that Polzer was involved in the Mt Graham vs The Apache Nation case:

Finally, as a parting shot Polzer says:

"Her remarks about the government's failure to approach the Apaches are contrary to fact. The reality is that no Apache bothered to take up this cause until non-Indians coaxed certain long-term, political dissidents to block construction of the telescope".

As shown earlier, this is a blatant lie. The Apache received no such letter and the EIS had a letter stating the Apache position on Mt. Graham. What makes Polzer's statements so incredulous is that fact that he was the curator of Ethnohistory and the Documentary Relations of the Southwest Project at the Arizona State Museum at the University of Arizona, which contains among other items, the Grenville Goodwin papers.

Apache ceremonies do not leave traces or shrines, except perhaps a small fire area and scattered pollen. Even over centuries, there is no built evidence to prove possession. The Ninth Circuit Court echoed Father Coyne. The Apache had failed to show that the sacred locale first named by the Apache also included a second locale claimed by the astronomers. The second site was not proven to be sacred, in part, because it was 1,300 feet from the first. How could both be sacred? The more extravagant Father Polzer simply presented false information in courts: "Rarely did the Apaches use these heights, and the Œsacredness is about as specific as references to the sky.

Now. . . Let's assume for just one minute that Father Polzer had immediately upon examination determined in his own mind that the Stone Maps were authentic and did in fact (If deciphered correctly) lead to some hidden Jesuit Treasure. Does anyone believe that it would have been in his own best interest to say so?

I think NOT!


On the subject of the Arizona Highways Expert witness comments… From: http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html
The most recent “Expert” opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation! In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”. Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them. Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period? Again, these “Experts” are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these “evaluations” are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility. Some people with big degrees will try to wiggle anything into an explanation to keep from saying the words “I don’t know”. I am a little disappointed with the author of the article and publisher of Arizona Highways for not researching the matter further and presenting a more balanced report that included reactions to the “Expert” opinions provided and some opposing views from the other side of the fence.

Additional information about Dating the stone maps is located at: http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/oct/peralta.html


Blazer

HIO Blazer: I cannot personally vouch for Father Polzer since our contact was via Em, and we did disagree in a very  friendly manner on Tayopa. But his personal character is upheld by the Community for his personal morals and good works which continue today. He has been honored by the King of Spain for his work.  In fact your's is the first to question him.

I have various times posted/explained my position on the validity of the stones, especially the Reeves scenario  or shall we say, booboo.

Whether it took 1 or 10 burros is a moot point, since it did involve a heavy cargo for a scarce animal,  which in those days did not make sense.  They were reserved for more important things such as food & water, precious  metals  etc.  Under these conditions a more portable map, such as was done in almost every other incidence,
is infinitely more believable.

As for their being found all at once or separately, even there, there is controversy still raging. What  distinguishing marks are there in the area where they were supposedly found that would serve as a positive marker/guide  for  someone being sent say from Mexico city to locate and dig them up?

And not the least, why so many different stones when all of the data could easily be engraved on one ?

I don't buy secrecy, otherwise  they would have had been scattered in widely different areas.

Final point, literally hundreds have worked on deciphering these stones with no known success??

Why are you so hot on Oro and Beth?   They are only a couple of the many that do  not believe that they are  maps of any validity.   

p.s. The Jesuits are out since this is not a characteristic of their modus operendi.

Tropical Tramp

HIO Blazer: I cannot personally vouch for Father Polzer since our contact was via Em, and we did disagree in a very  friendly manner on Tayopa. But his personal character is upheld by the Community for his personal morals and good works which continue today. He has been honored by the King of Spain for his work.  In fact your's is the first to question him.

I wasn’t personally questioning him. I just passed on information from the articles on DesertUSA that originally came from court transcripts. The transcripts are available on the internet. At least they were a few years back when I first read that article. I just did a Polzer Google and then searched within the results for Mt Graham. They came right up. People sat there under oath and called him a liar and a cheat! I didn't make the news, I just reported it!

I have various times posted/explained my position on the validity of the stones, especially the Reeves scenario  or shall we say, booboo.

Who is Reeves? I have never heard of him. What booboo are you talking about?

Whether it took 1 or 10 burros is a moot point, since it did involve a heavy cargo for a scarce animal,  which in those days did not make sense.  They were reserved for more important things such as food & water, precious  metals  etc.  Under these conditions a more portable map, such as was done in almost every other incidence, is infinitely more believable.

Whatever...?


As for their being found all at once or separately, even there, there is controversy still raging. What  distinguishing marks are there in the area where they were supposedly found that would serve as a positive marker/guide  for  someone being sent say from Mexico city to locate and dig them up?

You forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t I?

And not the least, why so many different stones when all of the data could easily be engraved on one ?

I can only guess. They are a puzzle that has to be arranged in the right order and read in the proper sequence in order to be useful to anyone.

I don't buy secrecy, otherwise  they would have had been scattered in widely different areas.

I don’t think the owners of them ever intended to leave them behind or let them out of their direct control.


Final point, literally hundreds have worked on deciphering these stones with no known success??

You are making a statement… With question marks at the end??? I disagree with the statement, can’t answer the question.

Why are you so hot on Oro and Beth?   They are only a couple of the many that do  not believe that they are  maps of any validity.    

I’m not hot on Oro and Beth. They seem like real nice people. I’m just hot on some of their crazy ideas, and their willingness to accept the things they are told without even using their own logic to sniff it and see if it smells funny. The comments in Arizona Highways by the “Experts” is exactly the kind of “Expert Testimony” that allowed OJ to walk. (The Jury didn’t buy it) It is too easily blown away by just thinking about it a little. If they buy those evaluations, what other nonsense are they also buying into?  Maybe something like Barry Storm created the stone maps? Huh? Huh? They have no case there at all. They are grabbing at straws and bending them to fit. There is enough expert witness B.S. already floating around about the stone maps without adding a bunch of amateur B.S. to it. There are a bunch of people like me out there that would like to be able to make up our minds about whether they are genuine or not. I still don’t have a final opinion about that. I have talked to many people that have been looking for the same answer since the day the life Magazine article came out in 1964. If Oro has some damn evidence that Storm made the maps or had any part in making them, he show it or drop it! He is just adding to the B.S. that is already out there. If he had evidence that they were genuine and how to use them, then that is worthy of keeping it quiet! In which case he wouldn’t be saying ANTTHING. But to claim to have evidence they are fakes and pretend it is “Secret” information is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!


 
p.s. The Jesuits are out since this is not a characteristic of their modus operendi.

Tropical Tramp

Mi Amigo, There are a lot of people out there that have forgotten more than I will ever know about the stone maps and would argue with you about that until the cows come home!. If you want some really straight and in depth answers you should seek them out. Richard Robinson, Chuck Kenworthy’s Son, (I forget his first name), Jim Hatt, Richard Peck, Greg Davis, Matthew Roberts, Clay Worst, just to name a few. These guys all have MUCHO years, both in the mountains and in the libraries researching the stone maps. They do not all agree with each other about their conclusions, but they are not amateurs, and none of them will blow any B.S. in your face. If they tell you something they believe about the maps, they will tell you why they believe it, and you can form your own conclusions from there.

Best,

Blazer

[seen making fake inscriptions in stone in the Superstitions]

Greetings Blazer and everyone,

Tropical Tramp pointed out the very odd idea of a bunch of stone maps, which if you think about it should be enough to raise a red flag.  He also pointed out the poor logic of having a SET of them when all the information could have been easily put on ONE stone, which is a far less easy to hide and less portable map than leather, paper or wood.  Your idea that Father Polzer was protecting some secret Jesuit interest in the Superstitions is unfounded - there is no evidence of Jesuit activities in the Superstitions.  He had no "interest" in protecting some Jesuit treasure there because they had no treasure or mines there.  It sure looks like you just don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with the idea of the stones being genuine. 

So I am insane and an amateur, in your opinion.  Well Blazer you are sure welcome to your ideas.  Want proof that Storm was involved?  Lets see, we have the statements from Tom Kollenborn that several old timers who pre-dated Storm witnessed him altering Indian petroglyphs and specifically adding the "ORO"; there are photos of the sunburst stone which predate the time of Storm and there is no ORO, yet after Storm is there we have "ORO" along with his other alterations.  You wanted me to study Storm's published chart of "Spanish" treasure hieroglyphics, and said there were NO matches, yet there are at least FIVE.  For a person who has mixed fact and fiction in his books and movie, who was seen making fake inscriptions in stone in the Superstitions, I think we have a pretty strong suspect for the creator of those Peralta stones.  They were found after Storm had been active in the area - now if they had been found some years prior to his arrival, we could rule out Barry but that is not the case.  You also failed to answer several questions for me, perhaps an oversight on your part, so I will re-post them:

1: What exactly constitutes proof of fraud, in your view?

2:please post EXACTLY those "fabrications" which you have accused me of posting? 

3: Do you just dismiss the statements of Father Polzer and Desert Archaeology Inc?


4: Blazer wrote: I am still waiting for Oro, or the Mrs. Which ever one he cares to log on as,  to explain why none of Storm's Signs and Symbols appear on the stone maps. --- Explain it to me WHY we find that there ARE matches in Storm's book AND on those Peralta stones please?

The very first edition of Storm's book included some of his artwork, yet strangely none of his artwork was included in any other edition.  So we have in Barry Storm, aka John T. Clymenson, a person who was a promoter of the legends of the Superstitions, who had the backing and financial support of a famous Arizona senator and prominent member of a club which also promotes the legends of the Southwest, a person who had no qualms about mixing fact and fiction to sell more books and movies, who had no qualms about making fake stone Spanish hieroglyphics in the Superstitions, gee yeah I must be insane to think that this same person might have made up fake stone maps too, that just happen to have some of the very same symbols he included in his chart of Spanish treasure symbols.  ;)

Blazer wrote: But to claim to have evidence they are fakes and pretend it is “Secret” information is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!
I have to add to this, where exactly is this claim that I have secret evidence to prove they are fakes?  I have never made that claim; I do have more information on the Peralta stones than I am going to make public, but if you think it is evidence that proves them real that is pure speculation on your part.  You may have missed some of the discussion on these stones, there is a great deal of it here in SEVERAL threads, many points raised both in favor and against the Peralta stones, if you cared to read it;
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,48301.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,29161.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,47594.0.html

Yes if you think about it, when we look at these Peralta stones, something indeed smells.  You don't want me posting my negative opinions about them, well you can sure post your rebuttals in support of their validity as it is a public forum.   You have even said you, Blazer, don't believe they were ever buried - well doesn't that little flaw bother you, and make you question their validity even more?  Why not go ahead and try using those stone 'maps' to search for some lost treasures or legendary mines?  Surely that is the very best test of any treasure map.  If something could be found to prove they were genuine, I will happily take back my words and be the first to congratulate you  - but won't feel bad about not bothering with them.   

Oroblanco

B (Mrs Oro)

I just have to say, that, Mr. Oro and I, actually have different ideas on the "stones".

Don't feel alone. I know the feeling, but in my case the different ideas are internal. I have argued both sides of the fence with myself for hours on end. I can never win no matter which side I take.

Oro,

You have too many things crammed into one post. Me follow the stone maps to the treasure? If I understood them I would probably give it a try. I have a hard enough time trying to understand the explanations of people that claim to understand them. Polzer... I have no personal opinion, I only know what I have read about him on the internet. I do believe he tried to use his influence in a shady way in the Mt Graham affair. I am sure he did a lot of wonderfull things in his life, but the Mt Graham files show that he was not above dealing from the bottom of the deck to get what he wanted. I forget what your question was about the expert witnesses in the Arizona Highways article was, (and I also forgot to copy it to my clipboard before I opened the reply window) but I agree with Jim Hatt's assessment of their evaluations. Obviously Jim is a believer in the validity of the stone maps. As far as I know, he is the only well known believer to openly state that he believes there is a link between them and the LDM. I know he gets roughed up over that from time to time, but it never seems to bother him, because he never breaks his stride and keeps coming back for more. Speaking of Jim & Barry, did you know that he roughed up Barry Storm a little himself in his booklet about Jenkins Lost Lode? But he had facts in the form of a hand written letter to back him up.  At least he was man enough to include a Forward written by Clay Worst, that defended Storm's actions even tho it took some of the thunder out of the point he was making. I already admitted that Storm was no Saint. But I still do not believe ALL the things that are said about him. Least of all things that came from Tex Barkley and the things you mentioned all came from him. Every treasure hunter gets roughed up now and then. It goes with the territory. It is an activity where the stakes are always HIGH. The winners always win big and the losers sometimes pay with their lives. With stakes like that, a little roughing up in the middle of the game should be expected and treated as just so much water under the bridge. Those that can't take it get out pretty fast.

If you (or I), get roughed up a little, Don't take it personal, look at it as confirmation that our ante is good and we are still in the game.

Blazer

Greetings Blazer - thanks for your answers.  Good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco

Mr & Mrs "O"

The high stakes and the risk involved keep all but the deeply committed from staying in the game long enough to become Icons in the legend.  We debate with passion amongst ourselves, but when it comes right down to it, nobody else cares what we mortals think! Unless you (or I) become an Icon, nobody is ever going to pay much attention to our opinions anyway. I found the URL for Richard Robinson's theory on the stone maps. It is at: http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/theGate/theGate1.htm
If you haven't read it, you might find it interesting. I have met Richard and discussed the maps with him in depth. His passion for their validity is unequaled as far as I am concerned. He has mapped the entire Old Spanish Trail from Casa Grande to an area deep within the Superstitions. Not from his armchair on a topo map, but in the field through a lot of hard work and sweat! You may not agree with all of his theories, but you might find the answers to some of the questions about the maps that you were asking me and I could not answer.


Mrs O, You are correct! The biggest problem with all the stories about lost mines and buried treasures, has always been the Liars. The second biggest problem is the people that repeat the lies, and repeat them, and repeat them.
If people would have refrained from repeating information that they did not have solid supporting evidence for, that they could present with it, there would not be so much misinformation on the record today. Some present day Icons have done a lot in the last few years, in the way of providing good historical information that has helped a lot of us see through some of yesterdays lies. I join them in my own small way, by calling for facts or sources whenever something "new" comes along that contradicts the historical record and/or could have a self-serving motive. I am sorry if my momentum for that goal was perceived as something else. It's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it, or the future generations that follow in our footsteps will think we were ALL liars.

Opinions are great! We all have them, few of us agree with each others, and some disagreements get overheated. But opinions are still important and sometimes are the fuel for thought, that causes the discovery of something like King Tut's Tomb, or the wreck of the Atocha. There would be far fewer overheated arguments if facts were kept on the facts page, and opinions were kept on the opinions page.

Blazer

I hope to be through talking about the stone maps because they are not my favorite topic.

I joined this site to make my feelings known about Treasure Trove Permits and the Management of the Superstition Wilderness Area. I don't even remember how I got started on the stone maps.

The last I remember Mr Wood was agreeing that the U.S. Congress had mandated things for creation and maintenance of a Wilderness Area, that the Forest Service was not able to comply with, because the have chosen to spend their annual budget on things they considered more important than compliance with the Federal Regulations.

Can anybody guess what would happen to the Ford Motor Company for instance, if they failed to comply with the Federal Regulations for vehicle emission controls? Or if some Farmer in growing potatos in Idaho failed to comply with the Federal Requirements for the use of DDT"

Why does the Forest Service get to ignore the Federal Requirements and continue to recognize the Superstition Mountains (and several other Wilderness Area all over the U.S.) as a Wilderness Area instead of a National Forest? Is our Government immune to it's own Rules and Regulations?

Could this have something to do with why Scott said he has never arrested anybody for violation of the Wilderness Act? Is it possible that a defence lawyer could beat any charges brought against an individual, based on the fact that the requirements for the Superstition Mountains to be a Wilderness Area have not been met, and the Forest Service knows it?

I don't know, I am just asking. Couple the above with the low resolution photos of selected portions of selected Wilderness Areas and one can begins to suspect a hidden agenda here somewhere. An agenda that is too expensive to support in compliance with the law, but since nobody is paying attention or asking any questions, our Government continues to swallow up more public land every year by one method or another, and increase the number of restrictions on it like some kind of dictatorship that does not have to comply with it's own laws or answer to the public for it's actions.

I like the Requirements for vehicle emission controls and the use of DDT.

I also like the Federal Requirements for Wilderness Areas. If they were followed when decisions were made to designate an area as a Wilderness Area, and these areas were maintained in accordance with the requirements I wouldn't be complaining.

Doesn't this bother anyone else but me?

Blazer

HI my friend Blazer:    For what it is worth the Spanish have been using the Sun and Oro symbols for centuries.

  At Tubares there is a  sun symbol on the cliff that is almost 40 ft in diameter, I believe that I know what is there for,  someday I will follow it up after I finish opening Tayopa.

As for these infamous stones, I have absolutely no interest in them other than idle curiosity. they are NOT on my agenda.  I have enough  here for three lifetimes since I am all by myself.

In any event, keep plugging away, but I suggest that no-one insinuate that another is a  bit, shall we say Asiatic like me.. In fact if one believes that they possibly are genuine, they are foolish to keep bringing it up, since it may just spark someone to go and actually find the  LDM.

 i.e. why spark  more competition?

Tropical Tramp

["US GOVERNMENT NOT FOLLOWING THEIR OWN RULES"]

Mrs. "O"

I'm not sorry at all that I started you on that.
I wish you would shout it louder and from a higher Hilltop!

Are any organizations like the GPAA or anyone else working for the cause?

The things you describe have been slowly going on for the last few years, in the Tonto National Forest which surrounds the Superstition Wilderness Area. They are closing the roads and replanting them with desert flora. Apparently to lay the groundwork for inclusion of more area into the designated wilderness.

You may think that the Forest Service is not the culprit and you may be right. But I think there is just as good a chance that the US Congress is placing their votes based on information (Required annual reports) provided to them buy the Forest Service. Those annual reports should be public record. As an example, when all the newly planted flora in the existing roads catches hold and the old roads are no longer visable, The Forest sends in a report that this area has NO ROADS in it and recommends that Congress recognize it as a "roadless" area. I think our Congressional representatives are being misled. No telling how much backscratching is going on behind closed doors.

If no one else will listen, it might be worth while to get some rag magazine like the National Inquirer interested in it enough to do a story on it. They LOVE printing big headlines like,

"US GOVERNMENT NOT FOLLOWING THEIR OWN RULES"

Blazer

Greetings,

Blazer wrote: I hope to be through talking about the stone maps because they are not my favorite topic.

Fine with me - not my favorite subject either.  I am not sure how it even came up in this thread.

Not trying to steal Mrs Oro's spot here, but Blazer brought up some interesting points, like:
Are any organizations like the GPAA or anyone else working for the cause?


GPAA claims to be working on our behalf, but in truth I don't know what they are doing along that line.  On the other side of this question is who/whom is causing these "wildernesses" and monuments, etc to be created, eating up vast areas of public lands and locking out us prospectors, hunters, etc - the Forest Service seems to be always reacting to lawsuits in helping to create wildernesses etc.  The folks who are suing the Forest Service, along with the Feds in general to "force" the government to create wildernesses are our good old friends the Sierra Club and their allies like the Nature's Conservancy.  These private clubs include a couple million members, and the clubs act as proxy lobbyists to get politicians to make wildernesses.  We went to a couple of meetings with the Forest Service and the BLM when the Sierra Club and Nature's Conservancy were trying to make a strange "horizon to horizon" zone along an old stagecoach road, FREE of human beings and any sign of human activity.  We were told that it didn't matter what the local people of Wyoming wanted, because the total population was less than a half million and the Sierra Club had two million members!  So this private club, which represents less than one percent of the total population of the United States, wields power as if they were representing the majority of Americans!

I think these private clubs' power needs to be reined in, maybe do some investigating too.  Sure they were in the forefront to protect the Bald Eagles when they were in danger of being wiped out - but they are now quietly using such things as a sub-species of rat, a type of FLY etc to block off huge tracts of lands all over the USA - locking US out, while THEY can continue to enjoy the lands the way they like to.  So it is okay for THEIR members to "pursue happiness" but NOT for US.  The United States is a virtual mineral treasure house, and as that old saying goes, if you can't grow it, you must mine it - and we have the best levels of environmental protection for mining, mining produces high paying jobs, and even when mines are played out today, the lands are generally restored to "pristine" to the best of our abilities.  The old habit of stripping the land and running is in the past, but our government policies have been pushing mining companies to foreign countries where there are few environmental laws and labor practices can be horrific. 

We also hear those "isms" that modern mining companies find all the new deposits, the 'little guy' doesn't have any effect - but the fact is that over 90% of all mineral discoveries are made by individual prospectors; few mining companies are willing to spend the time and expense to search for new deposits - for there is a great deal of searching involved to find any new deposits.  The steps of core drilling etc don't occur until after the mineral deposit has been located by the prospector.  That old 1872 mining law needs to be kept in place, and perhaps even get after our politicians to lift the moratorium against patenting mining claims. 

Before I get off the soap box, we should all take the time and effort to write our congressmen and perhaps the president too to push to keep those public lands open to the public, and instead of adding more wildernesses (by pretending roads don't exist or playing word games like they did in the Desert Protection Act, calling many dirt roads "routes" so they would not count as "roads") to fund the jewels of our parks systems like Yellowstone, Grand Canyon and Yosemite, all of which have a tremendous amount of repair and maintenance work needed but NOT done because the funds were not appropriated, we don't have an unlimited amount of lands in America and with a population of 300 million (geez no wonder it seems crowded everywhere!) we have need of more mines!  More mines means a need for more prospectors, and lifting that moratorium on patenting would allow the prospector to protect his/her investment by complete ownership of the discovery.  If you (dear reader) do write to your congressman, don't forget to mention that you VOTE too, and no private club has the right to vote!

Not to throw more rocks at our government, but a look at Yukon territory programs shows how differently the two countries (US-Canada)view prospectors - Yukon had a program to re-imburse the expenses of prospectors (not sure if they still do, that was several years ago) and several other programs to encourage prospectors, instead of the very different attitude we usually get from our government officials (including some Forest Service and BLM personnel, Scott not included here!) that seems to view us as some kind of looters or thieves. 

Sorry about the rant, didn't mean to hijack anything Mrs Oro might post. 

Oroblanco

ORO

If you (dear reader) do write to your congressman, don't forget to mention that you VOTE too, and no private club has the right to vote!

Very true Oro, but the two million members of the Sierra Club each have a vote and they write lots of letters too. Even if you and I could get two thousand people to send letters to McCain and Kyl , they most likely would never see them personally. They have Aides that open the mail and place a checkmark on a spread sheet that represents what the person is for or against. All the Senator sees is the final tally of checkmarks. An exception would be a "Special" letter that touches on something that the Senator has a special interest in, or something that could grow into national news that might become an election issue.

A couple thousand checkmarks wouldn't go very far on the opposite side of the column from the hundreds of thousands, or millions of checkmarks in the Sierra Club side of the column.

What is needed is an Independent Congressional Investigation into the Morality and legality of some of the things that you have mentioned above. We need to establish a NEW column on the spreadsheet that will draw the interest of Every Voting American, not just the Prospectors and Small Miners who are out numbered by the organized and outspoken Private Clubs.

The issue needs to be focused on the root of the problem which affects all Americans, and ALL Americans will take notice of a headline along the lines of "US Government NOT complying with it's own Laws". That would bring in 10's of Millions of letters to ALL of our Congressional Representatives, from Maine to California, and that many checkmarks will get their attention. 

That old 1872 mining law needs to be kept in place, and perhaps even get after our politicians to lift the moratorium against patenting mining claims. 

You bet it does! The sad part is that IT IS IN PLACE, it is just being circumvented to pacify the private clubs and keep them from making too many waves that might have an effect on election results.

The issue of the currrent US Congress giving the stamp of approval on things that conflict with pre-existing Laws is something that every Voter can understand complain about!

We are not asking for anything NEW, or for anything that already exists to be changed. All we want is what our previously elected representatives already gave us, to be recognized and honored! Govermental Agency or not. If they are not performing in compliance with the written law, then they are in violation of it, and that is an unacceptable circumstance that needs to be corrected!

It's my guess that no more than 30 or 40 letters to the people at http://www.nationalenquirer.com/ could result in a story being done and really get the ball rolling for bringing this issue into national headlines!

I have written to them already and included a link to this forum. I think Oro's personal experiences would make an excellent example for them to base the story on.

Blazer

" ... The issue of the currrent US Congress giving the stamp of approval on things that conflict with pre-existing Laws is something that every Voter can understand complain about!..."

I love your sense of justice and outrage, Blazer .. reminds me of myself back inthe summer of '68 in Chicago when I naively believed that The People should have a say in the way things were being run in our Democracy.  Write letters, protest questionable activities, do the right thing, vote the rascals out, etc.  But as Carlin observed some years ago, "The two-party system is merely a cynical ploy designed to convince the chumps that they have a choice in their government". 

Well, we've just recently had a new mandate from The People ... let's just see how the new Congress facilitates that mandate.  Methinks there will be lots of talk and very little change.  Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.  You can complain all you want, B, but these people DON"T CARE what you think.  BushCo, continuing the looting of America by Reagan, Bush 1 and Clinton, has recently gutted our cultural bedrock, the Constitution.  It seems to me that your complaints about legal compliance of land codes in Arizona smacks of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

[It's getting very personal for those guys now]

Soringfield,

Of course EVERYTHING you (and Carlin) said is MOSTLY true. (Past and Present).

But it does not have to be that way in the future.

The current Congress has just approved an action that requires the names of Congressmen that attach permanant earmarks to bills to identify the Representatives that authored them. (and make it public information)The intent being to make it easier for anybody to backtrack to the sources of approved changes. It is a small step towards future accountability for past actions. (If I understand it correctly)

I think the Oklahoma City bombing, and the 911 disaster have spoken loud to our government that it's own people and the peoples of foreign lands are fed up with the way they do business. Don't get me wrong, I do not condone either of these actions, but if all else fails to get their attention, I think you will see more Americans and foreign nations reacting in the same manner.

With the new accountability in affect, it will be a lot easier to focus on the root of the problem and individual representatives could find themselves as the targets of retaliation (as it should be) instead of targeting Government Buildings and innocent employees.

A lot of changes have come about since Ok, City, the Randy Weaver Case, the Waco, TX incident and the WTC disaster. Congress IS LISTENING and I don't think they enjoy evacuating the Capitol every time there is a subtle threat that there might be a bomb in the Building . It's getting very personal for those guys now and they don't even know if the threats are coming from inside or outside the country. I wonder how they feel when they are walking from their car into their homes?

Now is a great time to tell them what we want. While they are LISTENING.

Their plates are so full with foreign affairs and the threats of foreign terrorist attacks, that the last thing they need to worry about right now is maintaining their fight for the closure of public lands. (just to satisfy the Sierra Club, etc.)

We could not have manipulated ourselves into a better position or better time to say that WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!

Blazer

So many things get hidden in those Bills. Even if a representative does read it all, the language is often Reverse Polish so a negative vote results in a affirmative vote FOR the Bill.  Just like in our local elections where you have to vote YES for something to fail and NO for it to pass. Someday that will be outlawed too, but we probably won't live long enough to see it.


Blazer

Evidence ....real evidence ! not a leed not a clue . not i guess ! not a whats this ...  and can you dirrectly connect the evidence to the legend or part of the legends known facts or known clues or leeds . there is the real question ? ...

now we found evidence we postive of that yet can the evidence pan out .. panning takes time as you all know ... but the pay off comes to those willing to take the time and locate the best areas ... ...or to those willing to use what clues the beleave and locate the sorce of the trace evidence to the main location...

we have facts and yet we have logicial evidence hiden with in those facts and clues of the LDM ..

as i see it IMHO there are seen and unseen evidence and how we collect the evidence is as importain as how we under stand it and our translation  of the evidence . in the case of the treasure trove . the evidence has to be proven evidence yet as we all know few leeds or clues in the LDM legend have any real evidence value let alone logicially connect to anything else in the legend ...

i have been chaceing leeds and evidence for months now and knowing doing it in the hopes to find even a faded paths lost in this legend ... and yes i have found some paths ... it will take time to defind there meaning and value yet the paths are there ...

we have found what we beleave is evidence . will it pan out we can only wait and see .....

some of you here at times have stated your opioions about the acounts of said people within the legend yet . i can only stated that what you read is not always the truth and what looks like lies could in fact be real evidence if translated in the right manner ..we can only try to translate what is known in as many ways as we can and hope to find a signial peice of evidence at a time ...and if that evidence leeds us to a path great , if not we must set it aside and not forget it , and hope it fits in somewhere later on down the trail ...

there are a lot of opioions here at the site none of them are out right wrong untill proven wrong yet that may not mean they have no value because we do not in fact know the value of 80% of the legends clues or evidence as of yet !

we hopeing to take pictures of evidence that will prove what i saw was the LDM yet our research has taken us away from our main goal as of yet ...

so we are going to refocus and get more pictures and focus on our goal . be it the LDM or not ... will i get my treasure trove permits only time can say if there is enough evidence out there left to prove the evidences is real and shows evidence related to the LDM it self ...


it is up to us to respect the mts and the value of the evidence needed for these permits . yet in under standingf the reason for the permits in the frist place ...

i have never seen as much trash in any real legend as i have seen in the LDM< legend ....

yet there is evidence that the legend is true and it is real evidence IMHO ...


i saw something and it told me the acounts and maps and stones of this legend were real evidence i took the path and ended up find 5 real sites ... time will till if they are real site with real evidence or not ...

all i can say is keep a open mind . look at the evidence and judge it for your selfs . dont judge the people puting what they can on the table . we dont know yet what its value to the known evidence will be yet ...

any clues or evidence at this point must be seen as valueable yet even not knowing its evidence value or its value to the over all legend or how the evidence even fits in to the odd logic of this amazeing legend ....and yes confuseing at time legend ...lol


you take care and keep the ink working for a common goal ...

i heard a man dug up a spring in the mts . yet found nothing . i can do that ....i will be sure or i will walk away . valueable evidence or not ...

what is the value of wealth if we our to sell our souls to find it ....?

Mam gentlemen also  ORO:, not sure about djui since he intends to milk me of my Mexican data, sigh, however---   l will redirect back to the stones to clear up a critical point.

   It has been inferred that they were possibly "lost" from a mule/burro train.    Unfortunately this never happens in real life.  Having spent years in the Mexican  barrancas and Sierras during the successful search for Tayopa, I can flatly state, "no-way".  Burro strings/trains are never run as the movies show, with our intrepid Hero in front  with the string behind him, perhaps on a lead rope.

While it is common to have a lead man where no trails exist, there are always one or more men trailing the pack string.   They serve a specific, very important purpose, they were there to help any animal that has trouble, such as a shifted load or a loose one etc. - it does happen , believe me -  either of which may disable your animal with no replacement possible in those days.

Under these conditions I cannot accept a casual loss, they were deliberately placed there for what reason and by whom ?  REAVES  REAVES  best candidate   

 +{:>D ) ---+ > ORO.>.

Tropical Tramp  (he Saint)

[a mule/burro train]

TT,

It has been inferred that they were possibly "lost" from a mule/burro train.

I never saw that one inferred before. That is a new twist. Where did you read it?

Blazer

HI Blazer my friend, Your post # 169, not bemg picky or a pest, just remarking.


"you forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t "


Tropical Tramp

yes i agree  but you miss under stand the sighting of the jesuit's mule train . if in fact there was one . of that size . the stones very well could have fallen from a mule in the med of train and been over looked for another good reason . . i ask you this  how many people would it take to controll a mule train of that size . i have acounts of 8-9 jesuit's that were close friends of KIno . yet IMHO the peralta were ask to help them and this may be how they knew the location of the Dutchman and may not have know about the tunnle it self .maybe one of the peralta found the stones frist and than left them hopeing to recover a map to the mine again after the jesuits were gone . and thats funny that what we see in the legend today . if the peralta did help the jesuits they could have taken some of the stones them self and that may be how they knew the location the stated they had gotten the mine from the jesuit ,,... maybe like many others they could have in fact stold the maps from the jesuits makeing maps for them selfs and than leaveing the stone maps where they were found in case the jesuit descroverd there loss .. in this way they could find the mine again yet the jesuits would know it at the time ...... '

there are to many ifs here to know one way or the other yet logic tells me i just beleave the jesuits gave the location to the peralta if they did know its location ...


if Kino was the leeder of the jesuits and he placed the chruch's wealth there than there was no logicial reason to give the location to anyone out side of the jesuits them selfs and who is to say the peralta were not jesuits?...

IMHO from what i know so far . the peralta -ruth maps and the stones locate the same place 3 sites  ...

we are looking at the wagon trail at this point in time because it is out of place .. we dont know why it is there and it leaves questions where there is evidence of the wagon trail yet it goes from point A at the tunnle area to a near by Mt . the spainish arrow is about 45 yards from where that wagon trail vanishes ...the wagon trail passes within 20 ft of the nephew site ....this tells me it is most likely that the dutchman knew the wagon trail was there at the time of the nephews death if that is the nephew ... the other thing i take note of is if the dutchman knew the wagon trail was there he most likely knew why it was made and when and by who .... the other thing i wonder is what if it is not a wagon trail .. what if it is part of the apache trail ..

we can only say it goes from the tunnle area to the near by mt 2/3 of the way up and vanishes it could go up the mt more to some kind of cave or vanishes in to some kind of a vault area ....

my point is they moved something from the tunnle area to that area for some reason yet unknown ...what you have not been told is the path splits into two trails one goes around the mts and down to another trail and the one goes up and vanishes ..

and yes i have scaled photos of the path that goes around the mt and it is not on any hikeing guides or maps i have seen yet ...

i will also say when we got close to the tunnle area we found large cat tracks , large like 5 inches around and we did not feel very safe after that . i will take a 45 colt  next time ...the idea of being coverd in a land slid is more welcome than being eaten or malled  by a large cat ...

there is a few good reason i said i beleave i had found the stone house in the cave , yes it is acrossed from the tunnle area . and yes it could and is of size to hide a hiden camp or a few caves , we found 4 guard towers in the area one of them is where the spainish arrow was found ...i saw another cave near the one the spainish arrow was found yet i could not find away into it . it was about 25 ft around and was about 50 ft south of the spainish arrow cave . so there is 3 large cave that can not be seen untill you are right with in ft of them .... i will be takeing climbing ropes next time they are allmost to steep to climb into ...and i am a good rock climber ....if you fall it would be a bad one if you lived threw it ...

the point i am trying to make is .. if we are to question the evidence let us do it at all levels . i see a dirrect relationship between the stones the maps and the LDM legend to the sites i have found  yet even i dont beleave the Dick holmes acount is good evidence .... yet from my location i under stand the values of what was stated to him vs the lies to misleed him at the same time ...if we our to look at the stones . i read the translation of the trail stone as well as i read this page lol .. the stones are easy for me to read .. in fact i gave a copy of the translation to scott wood .... yet as we all know this is not evidence in the LDM legend .. it is unknow clues ...

so unless the stones translation points the evidnece in the LDM . it has little true evidence value for the permits ...

TT.

HI Blazer my friend, Your post # 169, not bemg picky or a pest, just remarking.


"you forget, I don’t think they were ever buried, intentionally by man anyway.
I stated that I believed the theory that they were lost and sank into the ground over time and many monsoon rains. You will have to ask someone that believes they were buried for later retrieval. It is a GOOD question tho, and I like it. There are no distinguishing marks anywhere in the area, other than Queen Creek that runs for miles. All the more reason to believe that they were lost there not buried there, right? I did already mention that the Old Spanish Trail through the mountains runs right through the area tho didn’t "

Tropical Tramp

Now I see where you are coming from. You changed the story so much I didn't recognize it, by adding MULE/BURRO TRAIN and all of the dialogue about the trains and how they operated.

I never inferred any train of Mules or Burros was involved.

I included a link to my source material where I got the idea they were lost from.
The source never mentions a Mule/BurroTrain either. Just ONE MULE running from the site of an ongoing battle.

Are you familiar with the story of the Indian uprising against the Jesuits in 1751, and the story of the Mexican Massacre in the Superstitions around 1848?

Blazer

Greetings,
I see the discussion has returned to The Stones and Peraltas etc.

Blindbowman wrote: who is to say the peralta were not jesuits?.

Blindbowman, there is reason to think that the Peraltas (whether involved with anything in the Superstitions or not) would not have been Jesuits; the Jesuits were run out of the New World by order of the king of Spain, 1767.  It would be unlikely that any Jesuits would still be hanging around eighty years later.  Father Kino is the most famous today but was not the only Jesuit priest to operate in Sonora, though the extent of Kino's explorations did not include the Superstitions at least by his own account.

Blazer wrote:
...the story of the Mexican Massacre in the Superstitions around 1848?

There is an alternate version of who/whom the skeletal remains could have been, already discussed.  Do you know of any contemporary source (written 1847-48) that tells of a large party of missing Mexicans, for 1847-48?

Oroblanco

Oro,

There is an alternate version of who/whom the skeletal remains could have been.

There are alternate versions of just about everything that is supposed to have happened during that time period. Including Custer's last stand. Who can say what really happened?

I would say the best contemporary sources would have been someone that was an eyewitness. Apache Jack comes to mind as one example.  His story is recorded in several books.

My own opinion (with reservations) would lean more towards the uprising against the Jesuits in the 1751, for when the stone maps became seperated from their owners, and lost where they were found.

Father Kino is the most famous today but was not the only Jesuit priest to operate in Sonora, though the extent of Kino's explorations did not include the Superstitions at least by his own account.

There are some discrepancies between Kino's written records of where he was and what it did, and some of the maps he left behind.

Most historical records say that Kino never ventured North of Casa Grande, but I have seen a map put out by the Arizona Pioneers' Historical Society, that shows Father Sedelmayr (Kino's replacement) traveling North from Casa Grande all the way to the Salt River in 1744, (following a route that had been previously laid out by Kino). He may have been in the Superstitions, or not, but it is possible that he was.

Blazer

Greetings,

Blazer wrote: There are alternate versions of just about everything that is supposed to have happened during that time period. Including Custer's last stand. Who can say what really happened?

Uh-huh.  Well it would sure help the case of the whole Jesuit-Peralta-stone map legend if there were contemporary sources that could help to confirm/substantiate some part of the legends.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any.  Apache Jack was not contemporary, he would have been either a tiny baby in 1847 or un-born.  Time-table problem.  Remember he was working with Bark in 1912, and was not an old man then.  Also his gold mine ledge was of a quite different ore, described as black with gold spots like stars in the night; this deposit was supposedly found by Bark and Ely years later and worked and matches the description of the secret Pima ledge. 

There are some discrepancies between Kino's written records of where he was and what it did, and some of the maps he left behind.

Most historical records say that Kino never ventured North of Casa Grande, but I have seen a map put out by the Arizona Pioneers' Historical Society, that shows Father Sedelmayr (Kino's replacement) traveling North from Casa Grande all the way to the Salt River in 1744, (following a route that had been previously laid out by Kino). He may have been in the Superstitions, or not, but it is possible that he was.


I have a question for you Blazer and for everyone really - why do we need to include legends of Peraltas, Jesuits, father Kino, stone maps etc when it is not necessary?  We know there was a man named Jacob Waltz, that he had a very rich gold deposit in a secret mine that he went to some efforts to hide.  His gold was different from any known source, and he shipped out a fair fortune in his lifetime.  There have been at least two other good gold deposits also discovered in the region (such as that mentioned above, found and worked by Bark and Ely as well as Wagoner's ledge of rose quartz) and plenty of history since 1891, including shoot-outs, murders, mysterious dis-appearances, and hidden caches of gold.  There is evidence of Spanish mining and Jesuits at work in Arizona, but well south.  When we cannot substantiate much of the legend of Jesuits, Peraltas and stone maps, why be bothered with trying to use them as clues?  Do we have some kind of need to have Spanish or Mexicans and missionaries involved with a lost mine?   

Oroblanco

Oro,

We know there was a man named Jacob Waltz, that he had a very rich gold deposit in a secret mine that he went to some efforts to hide. 

We ONLY know this by what some people wrote. In many cases the same people wrote  about the Mexican Miners and the Jesuits involvement.

By some accounts Apache Jack participated in the covering of the mines after the massacre. A young boy yes, but old enough to have witnessed the battle.

You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source. Some sources have more creditability than others. I think Jim Bark would be an excellent source, but I do not consider the "Bark Notes" that are in circulation as anything even close to Barks REAL Notes. The most often quoted set of Bark Notes is the Probert version (Seen in Helen Corbin's book) of the Aylor version of the Spangler version, that Spangler left in Aylor's camp. (to ensure that they got circulated). Why else would Spangler take the whole set of notes into Aylor's camp and leave them there alone with Aylor?  Aylor hand copied them and Probert typed them up. Did Aylor change anything, did Probert? Did Spangler? 

We can quote from the version of the Barks Notes that are in circulation, but we have no way of knowing what the originals said. It is also btw, rumored that there up to six other versions of the Bark Notes in circulation beside Proberts. None of them exactly alike.

The stone maps still not being my favorite topic, I would favor them over the Bark Notes for being authentic any day!


Blazer

[There is not one shred of evidence to suggest the Peraltas ever mined in the Superstition Mountains or that they were massacred by the Apaches]

Blazer wrote:We ONLY know this by what some people wrote. In many cases the same people wrote  about the Mexican Miners and the Jesuits involvement.

Blazer, check Helen Corbin's book The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold for documentation on Waltz, includes five documents signed by Waltz; he was absolutely a real person, emigrated to the USA petitioned for citizenship 1848, received his citizenship in Los Angeles 1861; homesteaded a quarter section on the Salt river in what is today Phoenix, was possibly involved in a murder at his home June 1884 (though he claimed the dead Mexican's friend did it using his borrowed shotgun!) and died in October of 1891.  He can be proven to have existed, those legendary Peralta mines, Jesuits etc are not substantiated.  You may not like what I post but check for yourself.  Since that night in 1891, we have had writers adding on fiction to the bare bones facts, publishing fiction as if it were facts etc to the point where we now have a whole layer of legend built on top.  Bicknell and Storm are at the root of a good amount of it.  Yes there are bits of truth in there, but with a lot of added-on crap.

You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source.

See the book suggested above, among many.  I have some experience in searching for the Lost Dutchman, just FYI.  Since you don't like to take anything I might write on the subject, how about this, quote:

"There is not one shred of evidence to suggest the Peraltas ever mined in the Superstition Mountains or that they were massacred by the Apaches. source - Apache Junction Library Archaeological Society, http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/ldm.htm

Peirpont C. Bicknell , more than any one person, may be responsible for the tale of the Dutchman's Lost Mine. P.C. Bicknell was the earliest writer to associate Weaver's Needle, the Peraltas and Jacob Waltz with the Dutchman's Lost Mine in his writing. ibid

There is little doubt among historians that Peirpont Constable Bicknell took a writer's liberty to exaggerate the truth in much of his written material about lost mines. Any separation of fact from fiction must start with Bicknell's published works.

It is doubtful that Barry Storm or Oren Arnold thoroughly researched Bicknell's early work on the Dutchman's Lost Mine. Since 1895, thousands of periodicals have appeared on the Dutchman's Lost Mine and much of the legend can be traced back to Bicknell. Bicknell may have had the earliest impact on the legend itself, but Barry Storm embellished all works he found on the Dutchman, Peraltas or Jesuits. His work impacted the thinking of more contemporary prospectors than any other individual except for the man who perpetrated the infamous Peralta Stone Maps. ibid

Fake maps, lies and imagination formulate the foundation of many tales told about the Superstition Mountain region. During the past three decades investors have lost millions of dollars to unscrupulous con men and promoters. The naive investor better not take the written word of authors or periodical chroniclers without knowing their credentials. Authors and periodical chroniclers often take a writer's liberty to tell a story. Oren Arnold once said it all, when he said, "Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story." ibid

end quote

I agree with the statements posted above, if that offends anyone well then don't buy my books.   ;)

Oroblanco

[The naive investor better not take the written word of authors or periodical chroniclers without knowing their credentials]

Oro,

I said:

"You see, Nothing you can refer to means anything unless you include the source".


Then you ended your response with,


Fake maps, lies and imagination formulate the foundation of many tales told about the Superstition Mountain region. During the past three decades investors have lost millions of dollars to unscrupulous con men and promoters. The naive investor better not take the written word of authors or periodical chroniclers without knowing their credentials. Authors and periodical chroniclers often take a writer's liberty to tell a story. Oren Arnold once said it all, when he said, "Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good story." ibid

You sure took the long way around the bush to agree with me.

I have some experience in searching for the Lost Dutchman, just FYI.  

Thank you for the information, any particular way you think I should apply it to anything?

Blazer

Blazer,

Everything oroblanco writes here is rhetorical. It really needs no reply. It's what everyone already knows. You don't invest time and money in someones book or get rich quick scheme without first investigating all the angles. Does O think he's giving us all a good tip here ? (my rhetorical question)

What I find laughable is these armchair know-it-alls who hint to everyone that they KNOW who created the Stone Maps, yet they won't come forward and enlighten us all. What a crock. If they had clue Number 1 about it they wouldn't hesitate to stand up and say what they already know. Of course their long winded, pompous speeches are not about what they know, or don't know for that matter. It's all about them. And thats the beginning, middle and end of their story.

CuMiner

HI COPPERMINER:  If you are referring to me, some of my credentials are below.

As for ORO, his footprints are found from the deserts to Alaska as both a prospector and lost mine hunter.  Beth is generally along to keep him in line. 

YOU??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Blazer, i see that my post on a single mule/burro dropping the stones has disappeared. K I will repeat it.

By the time that a panicky animal had reached the area where the stones were found, it would have calmed down.   Any loose load would have been long gone.  So it is not logical for this to have happend. It would not linger since there is no grazing there.

I will give you some food for thought though, something that no-one has brought up. I have been waiting for  someone to mention it, however --.

New scenario. The mule/burro has arrived at the spot with it's cargo of stones intact,   Apache's dearly loved Mule/burro  meat, they catch it and simply dump the useless stones on the ground, taking tonight's dinner with them.

Tropical Tramp

Copper miner, I am curious, just what in the Superstition, and their stories  isn't from hearsay and repetition or simply popular stories?

 What solid information do you have that isn't?

In other words upon what physical basis are you jumping on ORO?

Tropical Tramp











amp

RT,

I'm not jumping on poor oro. I'm just stating a fact and telling it like it is. oro tells it like he sees it, and isn't afraid to call people who can't defend themselves any longer a liar. So I'm sure he doesn't mind someone pointing out the other side of his coin. I agree, when someone shines the spotlight of truth on someone, it can get warm and uncomfortable. oro doesn't mind shining his so I'm sure he understands when the light gets in his eyes a little.

If you feel what I refered to in my post fits you, then yes, I guess I was talking about you.

I really don't care what your credentials are, or oro's or anyone elses. I know people who have spent their whole lives in the mountains and aren't any smarter than the day before they first went in. I really don't care if you believe anything I say or not so I won't waste either of our time with it. I don't have to impress anyone or prove what I know, or have done, or can do to anyone.  I'm happy with what I've researched, what I've done and where I've been and thats all I need.
This forum doesn't have anything to do with debate about LDM or Stone Map issues, it's a platform for a couple of internet trolls and flamers to lay in wait for unsuspecting people to come along so they can ply their trade with their favorite topic.

CuMiner

Anybody heard or seen Mike/Gollum around ?
He's not down there with you is he Jose ?

=MesaBuddy ]
Anybody heard or seen Mike/Gollum around ?
He's not down there with you is he Jose ?
**************

Hi mesa, no he isn't here   maybe inside of his tunnel stuck or squashed?  Anyone kmow where it is?

Tropical Tramp

TT,
HI COPPERMINER:  If you are referring to me, some of my credentials are below.

As for ORO, his footprints are found from the deserts to Alaska as both a prospector and lost mine hunter.  Beth is generally along to keep him in line. 

YOU??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Buddy, I didn't see the credentials you were going to include. I would have never asked, but since you offered, what are they? Surely you have more than just being a member of a club???

I have no problem with your theory that the mule could have been killed there, and the stones dropped on the ground. It doesn't explain how some of the other pieces fell in different places but sometimes theories have to be bounced around shake out ALL the details.


CUMINER,

You have a keen eye for seeing through the smoke and mirrors.

Blazer

Hi Guys (and Gal) – Miss me?

I’m back to work but after three weeks out of the office, I have a lot of catching up to do and not a lot of time to spend here. Whew! So much to respond to. I’ll think I’ll keep things simple:
 
To everybody (part 1) – y’all should listen to Oro and stop giving him grief. The man knows whereof he speaks. I hadn’t really thought of Storm as having been the one behind the “Stone Maps” and so haven’t looked into it myself, but it’s a good hypothesis.

To Blindbowman – Sorry about being a pain in the ass, but I’m glad that you understand why. You showed me that photo of the “Spanish Arrow” before but I am unclear as to what it is (the picture is a bit fuzzy) – is it a carved or pecked into the rock? What makes you think it’s Spanish?  What does it point to? And what’s this about “guard towers?” I don’t recall you mentioning them before.

To Oroblanco – A question: What is the source of the description everybody uses for Walz’s gold ore? Is it, in fact, a real and reliable source, accurate in all its details sufficient to actually differentiate it from any other source? When compared to all other sources in the vicinity of the Supersititions, what is it compared against? Are there accurate descriptions of every vein or ore body from every one of the Goldfield mines? Just curious – but in my experience working with mines over the last 3 decades, there can be a lot of variability within a single ore body depending on its formational history, certainly enough not to be able to rule out one of the known mines in the vicinity of the Superstitions as having been the LDM and having already been “found” by actual prospectors unacquainted with a reclusive old German immigrant in Phoenix….

To Blazer – I have not read the AzHwys article on the Stones, but I do know know something about the people and events you referenced. Rather than going point for point I will just say this: as you have already heard from others in the Forum, Polzer was not the lying SOB that the opposing side made him out to be regarding the Mt Graham controversy, Jenny Adams happens to be one of the most experienced and respected ground stone analysts in the country, and I have personally checked many of Elizabeth Miksa’s rock sourcing studies and found them to be quite reliable (in this case, they also confirm my own assessment of the origin of the stones). The truth is, there is no scientific, historic, forensic, or any other kind of evidence or logic that supports the idea that the Stones are anything other than a post-War fraud, but you (like too many others) appear to be reluctant to accept any information or analysis that conflicts with the idea that they are an authentic indicator of the presence of a lost treasure, despite the fact that any treasure it may refer to would have to be mythical since none of the people supposedly associated with it were ever anywhere near the stones or the Superstitions and since it has never been found by any of the hundreds  of people using the stones for clues. If that is your belief, you are welcome to it, but don’t accuse other people of accepting only the information that supports their position when that is exactly what you are doing yourself.

About Jesuit explorations: Kino never crossed the Gila – he reported that he made it to the border of Apacheria (the Gila) and could see it but he never went there. Sedelmayr did cross it – once – possibly passing by the ruins of Los Muertos or Mesa Grande and apparently followed the Salt River to its confluence with the Verde but didn’t follow either one of them upstream from there, and certainly didn’t wander off into the Superstitions; there was no reason to anyway, since he was looking for Piman souls to save and there weren’t any living there (or in the Phoenix/Mesa area either, for that matter) at that time. He was the only “Spaniard” ever to see the lower Verde and the only Jesuit to get within 20 miles of the Supers. By the way, if you or anyone else wants to see a good snapshot view of what the Jesuits were up to in the SW just before they were booted, read Juan Nentvig's Rudo Ensayo from 1764.

To everybody (part 2) – I do not want to weigh in on the whole Wilderness/Mining Law question any more other than to say this. Contrary to what Blazer seems to think, the government is not taking any more land when they make wilderness, it is merely altering the management of land it already owns. There hasn’t been any net gain in Federal land in ages; the truth is, it is dwindling away in land exchanges, townsite sales, and other land management programs. If they did away with the Superstition wilderness today it would still be National Forest tomorrow. As for the mining laws, I know that the myth of the small prospector making most of the discoveries is a tough one to kill, but the fact is, it really is the big multi-nationals that do most of the exploration and discovery nowadays. Why? Because the only profitable ore bodies left in the US aren’t accessible to surface prospecting; there really isn’t that much ground left out there that prospectors – amateur and professional - have not been over at some point in the last 100 years. Nowadays, it takes geologists and deep drilling technology to discover and develop ore bodies.

As for the patent moratorium, there are problems with the mining industry that most of you have never been exposed to and a lot of abuses. Patent abuse is mostly a small miner problem – patent a few acres for your mine and another five for your mill, “discover” that there’s nothing really there, and then turn around and subdivide or sell the patented land – to which the land managing agency is obligated to provide access if it is landlocked within, say, FS or BLM land. But that wasn’t the real reason we stopped processing patents; basically, we needed a breather. Y’all are right when you say that the US has the strongest environmental laws governing mining – when that activity takes place on federal land under permit. Patented land isn’t subject to the same laws and most States don’t control mining the way the Feds do. Long story short, mining on patented land inside Federal land often results in extensive environmental damage to the Federal land around and downstream from the patent. And despite the laws, no large mine anywhere in the west at least has ever been returned to “pristine” conditions without a serious infusion of Federal Superfund money. Part of the problem is that the 1872 law does not provide the kind of guarantees or income to the government to repair the damage of mining. Even so, we are not opposed to mining per se. As we speak, the new Carlota Copper Mine is beginning operations on FS land east of Superior and we have been negotiating with the Resolution Copper Company regarding an even bigger mine just behind Apache Leap. In case you are wondering, the Carlota is being developed over the top of the historic Carlota and Hamilton mines on historic claims and patents, though it’s mostly on FS land; those mines played out when they reached the outer parts of the original ore body which has a different chemical composition than the original discovery that they were unable to utilize back then. A multinational, Cambior, came in and conducted drill exploration and developed plans for new extractive and beneficiating processes; the myriad little prospect holes throughout the area (no parts of which were left untouched) contributed nothing to the development planning. The Resolution ore body was found by geologic modeling from the old Magma mine and located by means of deep drilling. It’s 7,000 feet down; no amount of amateur prospecting would have ever found it.

Anyway, the whole mining issue is an incredibly complex one that isn’t easily understood from the outside, where it tends to look like the government is against it; it’s not – despite the fact that this administration has no qualms about outsourcing jobs to increase private sector profits regardless, nobody wants to see jobs and profits and royalties (not that the American people get much in the way of royalties under the 1872 law) go overseas. But we in the land managing agencies have a duty to protect federal lands for all of their owners, including, believe it or not, you.

As for the Wilderness situation, I have my own issues with it and so won’t argue any side here, other than to say that there is no conspiracy to hide anything in the Superstitions, because there’s nothing in there to hide. The Google Earth photos are what they are, just like the low-res photos of a lot of places that I’d like to see better, but nobody has coughed up the money to pay for the kind of photos you and I might want for every place there is. And there are other sources – Google Earth is not the only one. Have you ever thought to visit your friendly neighborhood FS office and ask to see their airphotos? If you come in without a chip on your shoulder and explain that you are interested in better terrain info for a trip you want to make or wish to share information about something you’ve found, you might be surprised. Hell, last I checked, we can even sell you copies of the photos (but they are not cheap! The Supervisor’s Office has one set and everybody has to share because we can’t afford multiple copies – most of us end up using the lower resolution digitized photos in our GIS database) and these airphotos are a whole lot better resolution than anything you’ll find on Google. The point is, we’re not hiding anything out there – which would be kind of hard anyway with the thousands of visitors wandering around the place every year.

And if you are concerned about reduction in vehicular access on the Forests, I suggest that you contact your local Forest Supervisor’s Office and ask to talk to the Travel Management Coordinator to see how you can become involved in the ongoing route evaluation process that all the Forests are currently conducting.

Finally, if you really want the agencies to be able to do their jobs, lobby Congress to pay for the things they tell us to do. If you want to make that even more impossible than it already is and ensure that the public will be even less well served than they are now, encourage more lawsuits by yelling “conspiracy” to the National Enquirer. Half the reason we are handcuffed nowadays is that we are constantly having to spend time and money meant to be used for programs responding to FOIA requests, lawsuits, and Congressional inquiries and directives rather than fulfilling our mandates or working with volunteers or cooperative organizations like the Blue Ribbon Coalition to make sure that the National Forests remain responsive to all of their constituents and not just the ones with the best dressed lawyers.

OK. Enough about stone maps and the politics of mining and wilderness. Things have been getting too serious and a little too acrimonious of late, and a little too much like what I have to put up with at work every day. I think it’s time to lighten things up a bit. Maybe we can talk about something else now, like how Jacob Walz was actually killed by a secret society of Jesuit assassins disguised as free-range egg wholesalers offering to buy his chickens (what, you hadn't heard that one?) or how today’s illegal immigrant and drug trades are actually being run literally as an underground railroad by the Aztecs living inside Bluff Springs Mountain…

Cheers,
Scott

[I look forward to reading you professional assessment (item by item) of his personal assessment of their expert evaluations]

JSCOTTWOOD

Jenny Adams happens to be one of the most experienced and respected ground stone analysts in the country, and I have personally checked many of Elizabeth Miksa’s rock sourcing studies and found them to be quite reliable

You are entitled to your opinion. My opinion is that if they were as experienced and professional as you believe they are, they would have admitted that there was nothing about the stones that could be analyzed.  Since you haven't seen the assessment Mr. Hatt made about the expert evaluations, I will copy and paste them below.

I look forward to reading you professional assessment (item by item) of his personal assessment of their expert evaluations.

The most recent “Expert” opinions of the stone maps were published in Jan. 2005 in Arizona Highways. If you read the conclusions of the experts closely you will find that there were no scientific methods used to form the conclusions presented in that article. It is my opinion that the evaluations were shallow and subjective, and their conclusions were based on personal opinions that were not well thought out. In the article Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”. She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal. But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen - Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years. She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion. Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation! In the same article, Dr. Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”. Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them. Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones. Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period? Again, these “Experts” are just providing personal opinions with no scientific basis and very limited if any, consideration of the known history of the stones. In my opinion these “evaluations” are just knee-jerk reactions dressed up with some fancy words to create the illusion of credibility.



OK. Enough about stone maps and the politics of mining and wilderness. Things have been getting too serious and a little too acrimonious of late, and a little too much like what I have to put up with at work every day.

Contrary to what you believe Scott, it IS serious business to a lot of people. Americans have the right to expect their government to comply with it's own laws before imposing them on the public.


I think it’s time to lighten things up a bit. Maybe we can talk about something else now, like how Jacob Walz was actually killed by a secret society of Jesuit assassins disguised as free-range egg wholesalers offering to buy his chickens (what, you hadn't heard that one?) or how today’s illegal immigrant and drug trades are actually being run literally as an underground railroad by the Aztecs living inside Bluff Springs Mountain…

If this is your idea of humor, I don't think it is funny. If it is someone else's idea of humor, I find it difficult to see how you find it worthy of repeating.

Blazer

=djui5 link

Didn't he say something about a mariage?

Tropical Tramp

=Cu mner/Blazer link=YOUR CREDNTIALS ?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Hey Buddy, I didn't see the credentials you were going to include. I would have never asked, but since you offered, what are they? Surely you have more than just being a member of a club???
***************************

I definitely do, but to simplify & clarify the club status, I suggest that you go to

www.explorers.org

You can only become a member by being elected into it by a board of your peers.  we work with the National Geographic and The Smithsonian inst..
===
"what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal."

 Obviously you are lacking in animal packing experience, that is the last thing one would do..
===

Your data is the first that I have seen against  Father Polzers reputation.  You don' t even allow the possibility that  he might have been mistaken, but testified honestly on the basis of his information.
===

I am curious about your type of reaction??   Do you have so much time etc. invested in it that you cannot accept any other variations or theories?   Incidentally, I see that you are simply using rhetorical / anecdotal data also, the very same that you are jumping upon ORO for.
 
Last, but definitely not the least, I resent your attitude towards our fellow posters, especially your's to  Scott, He has been  leaning over backwards to help us.  Of course he cannot reply to your post personally because of his unique position.

Tropical Tramp

H ROOM:

I have absolutely no physical interest in the superstitions or the LDM.. I occasionally inject a bit of speculation to add to your theories  or to stir the pot etc.

MY PERSONAL OPINION, BASED UPON WHAT HAS BEEN PRESENTED HERE IS SIMPLY

 "THEY ARE FRAUDS" ORIGINATED BY REAVES , 

They were originally buried by a cohort of Reaves,  but were buried in an area which wasn't clearly identified so they were never recovered in time for his claim and legal defense. After, naturally, there was even less of a reason to recover them.

 Unless you can come up with something  new, this is the  "only"  logical possibility.

In answer to one post about people not being here to defend themselves is a bit ridiculous.  Based upon this type of remark I suppose that we cannot assess Herr Hitler or hi Gobbles actions or remarks?

Tropical Tramp

=djui5 Who's married? I'm confused.

*********
YOU are, remember?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for golly, i believe that he had  a daughter or something that was getting married

Tropical Tramp

HI  Deacon/Cuminer - LADIES, gentlemen and treasure hunters.

I owe you an appol that should read----

www.explorers.org

Tropical Tramp

author=djui5 link=
ahhh! I thought you were referring to Scott
******
In my opinion and evaluation he is a sedately married man happily doing a job that he enjoys. but.like me, has never had  a bribe offered to him, so, so much for an early retirement.   this is to say that  trust him.

Tropical Tramp

Greetings friends,

Scott welcome back, I hope you had a great vacation.  I guess Gollum has been pretty busy, or he would have weighed in too.

Cuminer wrote This forum doesn't have anything to do with debate about LDM or Stone Map issues, it's a platform for a couple of internet trolls and flamers to lay in wait for unsuspecting people to come along so they can ply their trade with their favorite topic.

Dang that is a harsh conclusion, that we are trolls and flamers lying in wait - hope your opinion can be changed.

Jscottwood wrote: To Oroblanco – A question: What is the source of the description everybody uses for Walz’s gold ore? Is it, in fact, a real and reliable source, accurate in all its details sufficient to actually differentiate it from any other source? When compared to all other sources in the vicinity of the Supersititions, what is it compared against? Are there accurate descriptions of every vein or ore body from every one of the Goldfield mines?

There were several witnesses who saw the box of gold ore found beneath the death-bed of Jacob Waltz, Holmes somehow got possession of this gold (he claimed it was given to him by Waltz, Julia Thomas said he had stolen it) and Holmes eventually sold all of it to finance his search for the mine except for a matchbox and a couple of pieces of jewelry. 
(photo of gold ore found beneath bed of Waltz, from Helen Corbin's book)

Ask any geologist or assayer, gold ores are highly individual in character with no two sources exactly alike - there were accusations that Waltz's ore was from the Vulture mine (which he never worked at) or from the Bulldog mine,  others have pointed to the Mammoth mine or the Black Queen (near Goldfield) but the ores from these sources differs from Waltz's ore. 

I have to disagree about the discovery rate for new mineral deposits being made by the individual prospectors, or at least in what qualifies as a "new discovery" - for the types of discoveries made by the large mining companies are mostly from deep core drilling, on KNOWN mineralized sites - sites originally identified, located and claimed by individuals, including the examples you cited.  I have seen the "prospecting" work done by large mining companies - they check the BLM records for any new mining claims filed, then rush out to claim up all the area around them.  A good example (it was funny really) is the great diamond discovery in Canada recently, with two individuals (Charles Fipke and Stewart Blusson) beating out the best efforts of DeBeers with their helicopters and massive backing.  (A short account is online at:http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/economic/diamondexploration/diamondexploration/1)

The patenting abuse was unreal too - there were developers patenting lands in Colorado as fast as they could go, not to open new mines (with the accompanying high-paying jobs) but to subdivide the patented land and sell it off in lots, pretty much spoiling the natural landscape forever.  Sure wish that they had not killed the patenting for the small miner though.

Just one last bit here and I will end my long-winded post - why should we assume that the Dutchman's mine was located in the Superstitions?  Because that is where he managed to lose the men who followed him?  Doesn't it also make sense that if he knew he was being followed, he might well have led them on the proverbial wild goose chase, AWAY from the true location of his mine?  I will point to one incident, which might suggest the correct direction to look for the lost mine - remember one of the last friends of Waltz was Julia Thomas?  Shortly after the death of Waltz, she made repeated efforts to locate the mine, though she was (according to Reiney) terribly frightened to be in the desert country at night - well where did she look?  She went tramping about the very region of Goldfield, actually walking right over some of the rich deposits later discovered!  Since we know there are rich (or were anyway) gold ores in the Goldfield area, doesn't it make sense that a small, chimney type deposit might be in that very same area, just not found today because no one looks there?   This area is outside the wilderness area too.  Just a thought..... ;)

Oroblanco

Hello again,

Blindbowman, four lookout towers in the Superstitions?  Do you mean as in man-made, stone or brick or adobe towers, or do you mean some natural rock pinnacles/hoodoos?  Just curious....

Just a side note here, while our federal government may not be openly anti-mining, there are some good indicators if one cares to look.  For example, back a few years when they were doing the study for the Desert Protection Act, one agency of the government (an agency which was known to be pro-mining) spoke against the act and said the area was highly mineralized, that agency was the US Bureau of Mines.  Just try and find that agency today - it was disbanded!  The old US BM used to have a whole library of publications that were helpful for prospectors and miners, some now available through the US Geological Survey but as far as I know many are no longer available.  While the addition of more and more "wildernesses" doesn't remove any land from the government ownership, it does lock it up to the prospector.  Before you say "but" - yes I am aware that the level of "prospecting" that is on the same level as a rock hound is still allowed in most wildernesses, but if you were to find a good mineral deposit you cannot legally file a claim on it - SO why bother prospecting in wildernesses if you could not ever own any discovery you might find?   For the sheer fun of the practice?  For what ever small samples you might be able to pick off the surface?  They would have to be nearly pure gold hunks to be worth bothering on that level. 

All that said in discouragement of prospecting in wildernesses (whether the Superstitions or any other) there are still a surprising number of areas OUT-side of wildernesses that are NOT closed to mineral entry (which means open to new mining claims) and some of these areas are very promising for a small-timer.  To give you an example (though in Yukon not USA) a friend of ours who was prospecting in an old "worked out" placer mine in the Klondyke district, where you could perhaps pan out a few colors to the pan from the tailings, managed to find a small pocket on the bedrock that the "big mining company" had missed with their bucketline dredge.  From that small pocket in the rock, which he measured out and came to almost exactly one-half yard of gravel, he recovered 767 ounces and a fraction!  Now that may not sound like a "fortune" to you but at the time gold was nearly $800 an ounce and despite having to pay the Yukon a small percentage (I think it was three percent) he was left with over a half million bucks and was able to retire.  (Retire as a relative term - like any prospector he merely kept on prospecting, but not having to work hard at it!)   ;)  Small pockets of enrichment are fair game for us individual prospectors-treasure hunters, and small pockets may be hard to find but they DO exist and can be found by the diligent/lucky treasure hunter.  Even in old "worked out" mines, rich pockets can be found - look at the famous 16-to-one mine in California, which was believed to be "worked out" when a few individuals bought the mine and went in with modern metal detectors.  You know the rest - they have made millions$$$$ from that "played out" old mine! 

Also if you are an individual or small partnership and want to get into drilling for the deep deposits, it is possible to buy the small portable drill outfits for under $10k.  *see link below* A small one-man model might only be able to drill to 200 feet, the larger versions capable of 600 feet; be forewarned however drilling with these through rock is s-l-o-w and you need to bring your core drill bit up every foot or so and remove the core for testing.  There are guys doing it, at least up north (don't know of any here locally) and if you are lucky enough to locate a deep deposit of valuable mineral, those large mining corporations will be more than happy to talk business if you can show them your assay results and drill reports.  You can even build your own hammer-drill* (all you need is a string of tools, a pulley and tripod and either an engine to lift and drop it or be really ambitious and do it like the Chinese -by hand!  ) and drill to even greater depths, but cannot get core samples by this method you must flush up your drill cuttings and hand-pan the stuff constantly to have an idea if you should hit a vein or deposit - and hand panning will miss that microscopic gold.  We had one of the small drill rigs and it worked surprisingly well, used it to drill a number of bore-holes for core samples and a well.  (Don't mention that part to the IRS though, we were using "company" equipment for a private use!    Just that once though.)  I am not recommending buying your own small drill rig, it is not for the impatient or less-than-ambitious person; it is hard work and you must drill your holes on a 'grid' (any mining company will insist on having reports based on a grid system) so will drill a lot of holes that produce nothing but exercise.  *(Read The Alaskan Prospectors Handbook, may be out of print, for a good description of how to build your own drill rig and other useful mining and camping equipment) portable drill rigs: http://www.hydratek2000.com/(you will need a diamond core drill bit with the rig)

Back to the LDM - what if that long-sought mine is NOT within the Superstitions wilderness area?  If you think about it, it makes sense - Waltz was followed by claim jumpers like Dick Holmes so he led them into the Superstitions, and generally managed to lose them near Weaver's Needle.  Hmm.  Then we have the Holmes version (which is echoed by Bicknell, Storm and others) which tells how to find the mine by a sort of "waybill" - yet it is possible that Waltz was telling Holmes a complete fabrication, to throw him off!  Remember that Julia Thomas went looking in the Goldfield area, now why would she look there if the mine were really in the Superstitions?  I suspect it is quite possible that the famous Lost Dutchman mine is not within the Supers at all - that it might be north or NE of Goldfield, which is a known gold mineralized region.  After all, some 100,000 people have combed the Superstitions looking for the LDM without luck, perhaps it is because the mine is not IN the Superstitions at all?  To search there one would have to dismiss the whole Holmes version, but we already know of some lies within that version so why not?  Those old arrastras near Tortilla Flat might well be related to the mine - remember that arrastras are not necessarily immediately adjacent to the mines!  Just an idea, maybe I will just go check for myself some time.  Who knows, maybe tomorrow someone will find the mine and we can all quit wondering!

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasure that you seek.
Oroblanco

[I]

" ... why should we assume that the Dutchman's mine was located in the Superstitions?  Because that is where he managed to lose the men who followed him?  Doesn't it also make sense that if he knew he was being followed, he might well have led them on the proverbial wild goose chase, AWAY from the true location of his mine?..."

If there was a 'LDM', this is probably the most pertinent statement about it that I've seen posted on this forum.  The name of the game is 'disinformation'.  You're all intelligent people - ask yourself, "What would I do?" 

Good morning   Cuminer / Blaser or anyone, can you please clear up once and for all  - were the stones all found in the same area, same time,  or what ever?  So far I have heard many theories on the stories. 

The pasted data below is why I am confused.  I have no problem with it what-so-ever , I just want to learn more.

Thanks gentlemen.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I have no problem with your theory that the mule could have been killed there, and the stones dropped on the ground. It doesn't explain how some of the other pieces fell in different places but sometimes theories have to be bounced around shake out ALL the details

Tropical Tramp

TT,
Last, but definitely not the least, I resent your attitude towards our fellow posters, especially your's to  Scott, He has been  leaning over backwards to help us.  Of course he cannot reply to your post personally because of his unique position.

I have nothing against Scott personally and I have said that before. If I appear to have a chip on my shoulder, is for his double talking, law breaking, employer. I have commended him in the past for presenting himself on this forum at the risk of personal ridicule in his attempts to defend his employer. If he cannot reply to my post personally because of his unique position, I think he would have said so. I would sooner believe his taking the time necessary to form detailed response.


Item 1
Dr. Jenny Adams says: “There is no evidence these stones were ever buried. The stone material is very soft, and there would be a lot of random abrasions. If they sat out in the open, there would be lichen, weathering of the symbols and discoloring of the stone material. Just look at old head stones in a cemetery”.

Response

She does not think the stones were ever buried because there are no abrasions. I don’t understand how she came to the conclusion that the stones would have gotten abrasions while laying still underground. Ignoring that, during my own inspection of the original stones, I observed a lot of abrasions on the faces of the stones, visible with the naked eye and similar to what one would expect to see if they had been placed face to face and packed on an animal.

Item 2
But then she says that they could not have set out in the open either because there was no lichen growth or weathering of the symbols. Lichen

Response

Apparently nobody told her that Tumlinson (The original finder, and probably several other people) had cleaned the stones many times looking for any tiny bits of information that he might not have seen before. Will lichen hold up against vigorous scrubbing with a brush, water, soap, and possibly even various unknown chemical cleaners? Weathering – How can you tell if an item has changed from its original condition from weathering if you never saw it in its original condition? What is she comparing it with that has undergone the same unknown treatment for the same length of time? The most weathered stone is a portion of the Priest stone, which is the one that Tumlinson said was partially exposed when he found them. Discoloration – The Priest stone has a generous amount of discoloration all over the face of it, but again, ignoring that, how can you tell if an item has been altered by discoloration if you do not know what it looked like in its original condition? The stones could have been buried or laying out in the open for millions of years before they were inscribed. Headstones – A headstone that has sat in one place undisturbed since it was placed there, cannot be used as an example to compare with something like the stone maps that have been brushed, washed, cleaned by other unknown methods and moved all over the country in the back of a vehicle, not to mention being cared for in a controlled environment for the last 40 - 50 years.




Item 3
She goes on to state that she believes the surfaces were mechanically sanded but offers no explanation of how she came to this conclusion.

Response

Didn’t the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Aztecs make smooth surfaces for their inscriptions without using machines to sand them? I have seen many Indian grinding stones with a much flatter and smoother surface than the surface of the Peralta stones. Am I to believe that she would also conclude that these were mechanically sanded? She also claims to have seen dimples made by drill bits at the start of some of the engravings. Why couldn’t any pointed object make a dimple if there were any? Who ever made them had to use tools of some kind. Ignoring that, why have none of the other experts that have examined the stones over the last 50 years ever observed these dimples she claims to have seen? Even an amateur can see the flaws in this non-scientific evaluation!


Item 4
Elizabeth Miksa says: “The Peralta stones originated far from where they were supposedly found”.

Response

Even if this were true, so what? To my knowledge, nobody has ever claimed that they were made where they were found. Why would they have to made where they were found to be authentic? Even if she could prove that the only source for the type of stone they are made from was 400 miles away from where they were found. What would that prove? Additionally… Tom Kollenborn, although he does not have a PhD, does have some formal education in Geology and probably knows more about the rock formations that can be found in the Superstitions than anyone else I could name, has stated for years that all three types of rock that the stones are made of can be found within the boundaries of the Superstition Wilderness Area. He can even tell you where you can find them.


Item 5
Dr. Miksa also questions the spelling and grammar on the Peralta stones.


Response

Assuming for a moment that they are from the 1847 time period as Dr. Miksa seems to believe, it would be extremely rare to find any kind of Mexican document from that time period that does not have spelling and grammar errors in it. Dropping that assumption and moving on. Many stone map aficionados that have dedicated a year or more, for every one minute that Dr. Miksa has in the study of the stone maps and their possible origin believe that they originated in the mid 1700’s regardless of what appears to be a date of 1847 on two of them. I wonder how the grammar and spelling would compare with documents from that time period?

In my opinion, neither side of the debate for or against the stone maps gets any points from anything above. The Arizona Highways article is just taking up space. Anyone that accepts the information in it as scientific evidence, or in any way conclusive, isn't reading it from an objective point of view.

As Jim Hatt (a registered Health Physicist with over 30 years experience in his field) pointed out in his article about dating the stone maps. There is no known scientific method of accurately dating the maps. His responses to the expert evaluations have been open for dispute since they were posted ,and to date have not been challenged by anyone. Scott has a lot of resources and contacts available to him. I am sure he will consult all of them before he challenges any of Jim's comments.

While we are waiting for it TT, feel free to post your own challenges.

Blazer

Morning Blaser,  since I have never read very much on this subject I have no challenges to make or have any  theories to defend,   In essence, I have absoloutely nothing to gain except to satisfy idle curiosity.
 
I have already found my LDM which is far greater than the Superstiton's LDM.

Tropical Tramp

B

That is the whole problem with the stone maps in a nutshell. The so-called "Experts" can argue back and forth forever, but in the end nobody can win because their opinions are always debatable. In this particular case, you do not have to be a qualified expert in the field to see that there are some potential flaws in the expert's conclusions.  I think it was Gollum that said, the only thing you can do is take a good look at the man who found them, and evaluate his actions. What he believed, and what he did, carries more weight than any expert's opinion. He tried to have them dated at Redlands. He never made them public. He guarded them fiercely, and he spent a lot of time in the mountains trying to figure out where they led to. Obviously he believed in them.

Take care Beth,

Blazer

[=Blazer link=
. He tried to have them dated at Redlands. He never made them public. He guarded them fiercely, and he spent a lot of time in the mountains trying to figure out where they led to. Obviously he believed in them.
*************

Obviously, however this still doesn't clear up who may have been the originator and why.  Reaves tends to fill up most of the holes.  Exactly how he intended to use them is still not clear,   Perhaps produce another document referring to them and a connection to the Peraltas to futher backup his claim.

Peraltas ----( - )     zero!, no logical data to support this.
Barry------- (+ )     question?  could and did have the opportunity and possible reason.
eaves-------(+++)  Most likely, he knew that he couldn't produce new markings in the Superstitions
since the  existing ones were fairly well known, so his only alternative was  to create ones outside of
 the Superstitions to be found later by his cohort, or more hopefully, by an independent traveler. 
How he intended to tie them in with his land claim is still unknown.

Tropical Tramp

O K so I've been lurking and reading all this stuff and I can say I am amused
My honest opinion (they're like a$$holes everyones got one)
The stones are fake
Waltz got his gold from another place North of Phoenix (That is my opinion see above)
No disrespect to any/all that are into this
I took a couple of "Ganders" into the Supers , not much caught my eye
Do any of you LDMer's know where this hole is
It has all the makings of a "Mormon hole" which I will not explain (if you know your stuff you will know what I am talking about)
Thousands of people pass it by
It is near the fork of two major trails
I will take one person here to it and that would be "Randy" (he's an amigo)

Best Regards
MesaB

and another , I will put up a shot of the general area
The tailings pile are still quite visible though the vegetation has grown back quite well , there is a cart path leading up to it ;)
Best Regards ,
MesaB

" Reaves tends to fill up most of the holes.  Exactly how he intended to use them is still not clear,  "

If I recall correctly (and I'm going by memory about the Arizona land swindle that I read a while ago), that if he was trying to claim a big chunk of territory, why not stick boundary markers at each corner of the "claimed" area?  IIRC one set was found (or "produced" as evidence) around the time of the swindle.  If this was another set, then possibly there are at least two others out there.  If the scheme with the first marker fell flat, "discovering" the others would have been a waste of time, if not counterproductive.
'course, I could be wrong (and usually am....  ;)

Greetings,

Mesabuddy wrote:Do any of you LDMer's know where this hole is

No, sure don't - but would be worth checking out - if it is not one of the many holes dug by those who hunted for the LDM, perhaps there is a mineral deposit?

Blindbowman wrote: have any of you been to medince bow and talk to any of the shaman there

Been to Medicine Bow, Wyoming? Yep - went prospecting north and NE of there, great fun but zilch for gold.  Talk to a shaman? No.

The age of the stone inscriptions would be almost impossible to prove, AFTER they were cleaned, which makes that "at least 100 years old" statement very thin.  Tool marks from modern power tools are one indicator of a fraud, and we have the statements of four experts that they were fakes - however you are free to dismiss their opinions.  Perhaps the grinding was done by hand, and the marks resemble modern tool marks?  Dismissing the opinions of the experts and the grinding marks - then we must look at the writing style.......does the writing style look correct for Mexican, Spanish or Jesuit inscriptions, compared to known genuine inscriptions?   

The finder of the stones (Tumlinson) and the next owner (Mitchell) both believed the stones to be genuine, that is the first four and not counting the "Latin hearts" and "Latin crosses" which were not found by the same person nor in the same place and time, and used them in their searches.  Tumlinson quit his job as a policeman to search and did so for years, Mitchell also searched the Superstitions for years, using the stones as "maps" to find treasures or lost mines - but found nothing of value; hundreds of others have also tried using the stones as maps to find treasures or lost mines without finding any - what does that tell you? 

Oroblanco

[=Zephyr link='course, I could be wrong (and usually am....  ;)

***********
Hmm you are marred also?

Tropical Tramp

[=Zephyr link='course, I could be wrong (and usually am....  Wink

***********
Hmm you are married also?

Tropical Tramp

 

Reminds me of a joke my brother told me - "If a married man were out in the forest, all alone with no one else for miles around, is he still wrong?" 

Oroblanco

Oro,
The finder of the stones (Tumlinson) and the next owner (Mitchell) both believed the stones to be genuine, that is the first four and not counting the "Latin hearts" and "Latin crosses" which were not found by the same person nor in the same place and time, and used them in their searches.  Tumlinson quit his job as a policeman to search and did so for years, Mitchell also searched the Superstitions for years, using the stones as "maps" to find treasures or lost mines - but found nothing of value; hundreds of others have also tried using the stones as maps to find treasures or lost mines without finding any - what does that tell you? 

Oroblanco


It can lead different people to ASSUME a lot of different things. But the only thing it TELLS you with any certainty is that if anyone has ever found anything. They are not talking about it openly. Never ASSUME that you know all there is to know about a subject, just because you have read all the published material that is available on it. Especially where Lost Mines & Buried Treasure are the subject!

Blazer

Very good bowman, may borrow some.

Tropical Tramp

HI room this is a picture of  a very small pack train, notice the driver is always at the back/rear  alert for any misadjusted packs or dopped cargo.  This is why I don't think that they were casually dropped.
 
This is up At TAYOPA, 7000 ft.

Tropical Tramp

Hmm you are married also?

Tropical Tramp

No, I'm not that lucky....  ;)

(Marred, married, same thing? ;)

Hey All,

I'm back. Just taking a break from everything for a bit. Back now.

MARRIED? Not since 1988! Kids? None that I know about! Just happily single.

JEEEZ! I leave for a bit and everything gets all angry!

RELAX!

Why get so worked up over some old rocks that nobody here will ever make a penny on (unless you write a book)? Personally, I think the Stone Maps are authentic treasure maps. After finding out about the Spanish Heart and the Stone Crosses (oh, by the way; Oro you are mistaken. The Latin Heart was supposedly found in the same area as the Stone Maps. Not the same spot, but the same area). The Stone Crosses were supposedly found inside the Supers. Since finding out about their existence, I have talked to a few people about them. I believe the Latin Heart was/is genuine as well. Not a clue about the Stone Crosses. They are widely believed to be fakes by the finder (Bill Hidden), but a couple of people who know him, do not believe him to be a liar or a fraud.

There are two separate stories of gold bars being found in a cave in the Supers. One is about Harry LaFrance (France), and the other, I can't recall right now. I believe that anything the Stone Maps led to at one time, is long gone. Secretly taken out of the Supers many years ago. IMHO

It looked like Copperminer was calling Jose and Oro "Armchair Treasure Hunters". While Jose and I don't romp the same places (yet), Oro and I do (some). I can spot a Lazyboy Treasure Hunter, and they don't fill the bill. I haven't seen anything from you that tells me you have done 1/3rd of what Oro has done (or 1/20th of Jose). Hell, I know Jose's personal history from the mid-1940s until today. For someone like you to call him an armchair treasure hunter, is a joke! If you knew anything about anything, you might try a little research on "The Explorers Club" It's not something you can pay a fee and get a membership card (with a 10% discount at REI or Sport Chalet).

Best,

Mike

The mere thought of marriage makes me feel like the dog in your avatar!

But that wasn't the case either. I was just house sitting for a friend in Beverly Hills. The house sitting part was great, but the 85 mile drive each way to and from work was horrific! Especially in L.A. Traffic!

Best,

Mike

Golly, we were just about to make up a party to go pull your over ripe remains out of your tunnel, fortunately we had no idea where that might be.

thank you for the kind words,  heheheehh 

Heck it is simple, no secret,  I was a high school kick out, a military reject, and then just a bum living from hand to mouth daily, many times I didn't even meet my daily ration of Tequila and Peyote  sniff.
 
Just roamed from the Gobi desert, the Pacific basin  to the Mexican Jungles etc., effectively a complete failure by our society,

 My motto and life is simple  " I was born lazy and have dedicated my life to not changing,. quite successfully I might add".

As for the stones  sheehs yer bull headed and mistaken  heheeheh

 Err about the offprng? hmm   DNA will clear up an unexplained  population increases in different remote parts of the world.

Tropical Tramp

=Zephyr ]Hmm you are married also?
Tropical Tramp
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

No, I'm not that lucky....  ;)
(Marred, married, same thing? ;)
***********
HI, some of us learn the easy way snicker. congrats.

This was my downfall sigh. Took a two year formal Old Spanish courtship to get her.  The money and time could have better spent on other things, like treasure hunting.

Tropcal Tramp

Greetings,

Welcome back Mike!  I figured you were just too danged busy to be fooling with us 'bicker-ers'!   ;)  Glad there was not anything wrong, and good to 'see' you again!

Blazer wrote: It can lead different people to ASSUME a lot of different things. But the only thing it TELLS you with any certainty is that if anyone has ever found anything. They are not talking about it openly. Never ASSUME that you know all there is to know about a subject, just because you have read all the published material that is available on it. Especially where Lost Mines & Buried Treasure are the subject!

Well "assuming" is what we have to do with many treasure maps - we have no way to prove many of them are either fakes or genuine.  Let us "assume" that Mitchell and Tumlinson used the stone maps and FOUND great treasures, which made them independently wealthy - then what is left for us to find?  You are sure welcome to view the Peralta stones as genuine maps to lost treasures/lost mines etc and I hope you will try using them to find the treasures/mines.  That is the final "litmus test" for any treasure map after all - personally I would not care to try to follow out what they are supposed to lead to.  That is just my personal opinion, which carries no more weight than yours or anyone else's.  Perhaps if I were a bit younger and more ambitious, I might be willing to give them a try - but I would sooner follow up other clues.
Oroblanco

I'm kind of with you here Oro.

Two things prevent me from giving any serious thought to trying to find the end of that trail (even though I believe they are genuine treasure maps).

1. Knowledge of who made them. If we knew who made them (assuming they are genuine), we could make a good guess as to the starting point. It could be anywhere from Eastern California to Western New Mexico. By knowing who made them, we would have a good idea of what area they operated in, where their mines were, etc.

2. Knowledge of the correct starting point. Even a very general one. If we knew they applied to the "Bradshaws" or the "Superstitions", the "Santa Rosas" or wherever would be good enough for me. But, without even a general idea of the area they apply to, any serious work in figuring them out is mostly wild guessing.

For anyone with a basic working knowledge of Spanish Monument and Marker Construction can figure out the Trail Maps.

1. The solid dots connected by a line are distance measurements and trail marker. Typically, the solid dot and line marker shows a distance of 100 walking varas between dots (a walking vara is approximately 31 inches).

2. The "X"s are nothing more than Monuments or Markers showing that you are on the correct trail. Notice they are all on the same side of the trail, and the same distance from that side. Those are the rules for trail monument markers/monuments. They must be on the same side of the trail, and the same distance to that side.

3. The horseshoe looking symbol is a well known symbol for mine/cave. That comes at the end of the trail. Somewhere near the large heart.

All that is fairly simple. You just have to get the right place to start walking!

Best,

Mike

Hi Mike!  ;)

You know, there is a fellow who has a theory about the Peralta stones being related to a very different place (NOT in the Superstitions at all) - if the fellow were not such a far-out individual (to put it lightly - he is no longer a member here on T-net as far as I know) the idea might make sense.  I am sure you know whom we are talking about, and the place he believed the maps were related to so will not post it here publicly.
Oroblanco

Who was the fellow? I know Aurum (Matthew Roberts) just posted here today, He's the one that believes the Stone Maps refer to the Arizpe Mission. That's not a secret any more. He's not a far out there guy either. I guess it's not him you are referring to.

OK, just give me the name, and I'll know where you are thinking.

There is the nutjob who thinks the stone maps are related to Utah. Also the OTHER nutjob, but I don't remember him having an opinion about the stone maps.

Best,

Mike

mike please   that guy in aveator has had enoough  i feel for the
poor guy