Treasure Trove Permits

Scott,

   I want to thank you for a clear and candid view into the permit process and your own experiences regarding same.
   I wanted to ask you if you have experience with any historical markings on living or dead trees ?  If not could you kindly suggest someone or a technology that can help me to expose the details of markings that are no longer legible due to their age and condition ? I located a standing tree that is very large for its' specie and location. It is covered with many markings some legible and some not. It is not located in your forest but is on USFS land.  

  I have met one of the field guys that works under the District Ranger and he was someone I would gladly invite to my home. He went out of his way to see that an issue that I had was resolved and even made a follow up the next day to make certain. When he was at my camp for the follow up visit he noticed a piece of my gear and mentioned how he wished the DR office had one and how it would make rescues a whole lot easier than they presently are. I didn't ask him why they didn't have any at that time so I was unaware of the nature of funding problems existing for the FS. I will contact the District Ranger tomorrow and donate the gear. Thanks for the heads up.

   Bill

        

Gollum wrote: Who was the fellow?

If I said, he had a penchant for "pirate" nicknames, you would know instantly right?  The fellow was quite a forum troll, no longer a member here - and thought the stones related to a mission and its' associated mines, but was not Matthew or Arizpe.  I did a cursory comparison using his idea and was surprised, it is not so 'far out' as I expected.

=Zephyr
" Reaves tends to fill up most of the holes.  Exactly how he intended to use them is still not clear,  "

If I recall correctly (and I'm going by memory about the Arizona land swindle that I read a while ago), that if he was trying to claim a big chunk of territory, why not stick boundary markers at each corner of the "claimed" area?  IIRC one set was found (or "produced" as evidence) around the time of the swindle.  If this was another set, then possibly there are at least two others out there.  If the scheme with the first marker fell flat, "discovering" the others would have been a waste of time, if not counterproductive. 'course, I could be wrong (and usually am....  ;)
**************
HI Zepher, so you are are married also hmmm

What you have posted makes excellent sense.

Tropical Tramp

Gollum wrote: Who was the fellow?

If I said, he had a penchant for "pirate" nicknames, you would know instantly right?  The fellow was quite a forum troll, no longer a member here - and thought the stones related to a mission and its' associated mines, but was not Matthew or Arizpe.  I did a cursory comparison using his idea and was surprised, it is not so 'far out' as I expected.

Yes! That was the OTHER nutjob I referred to. I never said he was stupid, just five or six cans short of a six pack.

After I caught him in a bunch of lies, I never paid any attention to anything he posted.

Best,

Mike

I AM NOT BATTY just  a slight  bit Asiatc  but --   sniff

Tropical Tramp

Djui5 wrote:I agree. Some of the stuff was plausible, though some of it was "holy left field bat man"

Boy howdy was it ever!  However the basic premise that the site where the witch/priest was standing was intended to be the mission, then compared to locations of the mines associated with that mission (you know which one we are talking about) it could "fit" - IF the mines are actually located there.  Since the location of only the LAST of the 'twelve' is known (public) it is not possible to check it absolutely.  It might be a fun trip to go check out though!

Oroblanco

As usual, a lot of stuff to respond to since I was last here...

Tramp wrote: In my opinion and evaluation he is a sedately married man happily doing a job that he enjoys. but. like me, has never had  a bribe offered to him, so, so much for an early retirement.

Sedately married? What’s that? I have been married to the same woman (2nd wife) for 28 years and we haven’t killed each other yet; does that count? I have been offered a bribe, though – once, by a colleague at the Bureau of Reclamation, to speed up review of a report: it was a six-pack of Dr Pepper and I never got it (of course, I didn’t give her any preference, either, so maybe I would have if I had done what she wanted). As for the “happily doing a job that he enjoys” bit…. Ten years ago I planned to die in place here, it was the greatest job in the world; five years ago I figured that I’d retire, but not until after I’d put my son through college. Today, I can tell you off the top of my head that I’ll be qualified to retire in exactly 148 days. I still love the Forest, I love the work (when I actually get to do any of it), and I love the Forest Service and what it stands for – the greatest good for the greatest number in the long run, as Gifford Pinchot liked to say. However, the Forest Service I signed on with is rapidly dying under this administration (we started going down under Carter, so I hate both parties equally), crushed by politicized leadership, overbearing and contradictory regulation, unfunded mandates, a bureaucracy that only a Russian could love, and a constant draining away of personnel, funding, and experience. It’s being replaced by one that depends on computer databases rather than fieldwork and hires children born and raised in cities to run those computers and who don’t go to the field to gather data and don’t look at it as a career, but just another two year job. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, the Forest Service is the worst possible Federal agency, but it’s a whole lot better than all the rest. I still don’t know if I’ll retire this year – this is MY Forest after all, I grew up here, my Grandfather worked at Roosevelt Dam in the 1920s, my mother was born in Globe, raised in Phoenix (as was I), and still lives inside the Forest at Payson (where I can’t afford to retire now, thank you very much Clint Eastwood and Charles Barkley) and I still have so many things to do – but it’s getting real tempting.

Oro wrote: Ask any geologist or assayer, gold ores are highly individual in character with no two sources exactly alike - there were accusations that Waltz's ore was from the Vulture mine (which he never worked at) or from the Bulldog mine, others have pointed to the Mammoth mine or the Black Queen (near Goldfield) but the ores from these sources differs from Waltz's ore.

That’s exactly my point, actually, one of two: first of all, not only are no two ore bodies exactly alike, but no single ore body is exactly the same from one end to the other; the second is that there are, what?, 8 or so developed mines in the Goldfield area. Are there accurate descriptions of all of their ores sufficient to compare to the alleged Walz sample? With all the potential variability involved, how can we rule out the possibility of a Goldfield origin? Even more to the point, what is the provenance of the matchbox gold so often cited and shown as the Dutchman’s gold? Is there a documented chain of possession? Given Holmes’ minimal acquaintance with veracity, can we put much or any faith in the assertion that the matchbox gold is authentic – especially given the proximity of Holmes old (squatted) homestead to several other gold mines he could have stolen from - I just threw that one out for argument – I really don’t know what the ore from, say, the Red Rover looks like (maybe MesaBuddy does, since he likes the northern interpretation).

Oro wrote: I have to disagree about the discovery rate for new mineral deposits being made by the individual prospectors…

Actually, I think I was talking about exploration rather than discovery, per se, and wasn’t thinking about things like diamonds. Anyway, I’ve seen a lot of big company exploration over the years well outside any previously claimed areas with no visible surface mineralization. An example: a decade or so ago Kennecott drilled a boatload of holes west of Superior through a thousand feet of valley fill and volcanic ash looking for copper; the only prior claims in the area were for perlite. I will concede that exploration and discovery take place at all levels, but I still hold that major discoveries leading to profitable developments very rarely come from small prospectors nowadays – at least in areas as heavily worked over as central Arizona.

Oro wrote: why should we assume that the Dutchman's mine was located in the Superstitions (etc.)?
Roy, my friend, that’s what I’ve been trying to tell people for years! A thousand people have looked throughout the Superstitions for a hundred years and found nothing and yet right next door there was gold all over the place! If I was looking, I’d be prowling around Goldfield, not inside the volcanic caldera – especially since, at the time, before “Goldfield” became a place name, that whole area was often included in references to “the Superstitions.” I wouldn’t look so much to the North or NE of it, though, as you quickly get back into the volcanics after Government Well. Which means that the LDM was most likely “found” back in the 1890s when Goldfield was crawling with miners. As for the “North of Phoenix” school, that’s a possibility as well (Cave Creek, Rackensack, Red Rover, etc), but that’s all country that Dick Holmes would have known, which is, of course, as good a reason as any to tell him to look in the Supers….

Blazer wrote: If he cannot reply to my post personally because of his unique position, I think he would have said so. I would sooner believe his taking the time necessary to form detailed response.

I could – short of violating the Hatch Act, my “unique position” doesn’t restrain me all that much, I just don’t have that much more to tell you. You don’t like the Superstition Wilderness because you say we haven’t done the right thing regarding the boundaries. It so happens that I don’t like the Sierra Ancha wilderness because it includes roads and uranium mines from the 1950s and the rules about technology use in wilderness are preventing me from any sort of cost effective stabilization treatment for my deteriorating and wildly popular cliff dwellings. I wish that I had the time to research all the ins and outs of the laws and regulations concerning wilderness, but I don’t. I can barely keep up with the laws and regs concerning archaeology and historic sites. All that I can tell you is that if there are problems such as you have identified, they came about not as the result of any sinister agenda, but simply because we didn’t have the time or money to do everything asked of us by Congress. I know y’all think that’s a lame excuse, but it’s the only one I have. You know, when I first started with the FS 30 years ago, the book Prinicipal Laws Governing the Regulation and Management of the National Forests (approximate title – sorry, but I don’t keep one at home, which is where I am right now) was less than half an inch thick. Today it is nearly six times that big. It’s sensory overload. Like I said, I can barely keep up with my own stuff, much less be able to cite chapter and verse of someone else’s’ function. I’ve given you about all I’ve got on the subject – it’s time for you to talk to the Wilderness guys.

Mrs. Oro wrote: The "moratorium" law was that NO PUBLIC MONEY WOULD BE SPENT on new patenting.

Beth, you are right on the money (sorry about the pun – and the “breather” joke – I forget that my sense of the absurd comes from an entirely different life history than most of y’all). That was the reason; we call it “moratorium” just for need of a convenient expression – and it isn’t the FS that handles patents, it’s BLM. We don’t even have total control over our own administered lands – patents, exchanges, any transfers of ownership still go through BLM. For us, it was a bit of a “breather” though, since processing patents so often depended on a mineral exam and you could count the number of examiners available to us within the FS and BLM on one hand – the work piled up faster than lawyers could file motions. The part that I don’t understand is how the “moratorium” came to include work being paid for by the applicants. We do that all the time with land exchanges – since we don’t have enough people to do the studies ourselves, we happily accept work paid for by the proponents. I could probably find out or at least get an opinion from our geologist, but I can’t guarantee that it would be very satisfying.

About “the Stones” Blazer wrote: Scott has a lot of resources and contacts available to him. I am sure he will consult all of them before he challenges any of Jim's comments.

He’s right, I do and I have but nobody seems to pay any attention. Quite frankly, the last thing in the world that I care to do is go point for point with Hatt over the stones. Not because I would lose the debate, but because it would be time-consuming and pointless. I’ve read Jim’s stuff. His belief in their authenticity is just that – belief, faith, if you will – and like so many others, he is convinced that those things are real, are important, and “mean something.” Arguing with True Believers is counterproductive and frustrating. There is no scientific, historic, or logical reason to believe that the stones are anything but a hoax just like all the runestones and Viking stone maps that have fed a cottage industry in Wisconsin for generations. Even if they were “real” and were somehow historic, as has been frequently recognized by many other than myself, there is absolutely nothing on them that is related to any recognizable landscape, no scale, no direction, etc; no reference point that would allow anyone to use them as a map. As Oro points out, hundreds of people have tried and none have found a damned thing. But none of this makes a bit of difference to the True Believers, who simply choose to believe what they want to believe; any evidence or analysis to the contrary is deemed either incompetent and incorrect or conspiratorial. As Blazer said, supposedly quoting Gollum (and I’m paraphrasing both of them here), “What you believe … carries more weight than any expert's opinion.” So what’s the point of debate or analysis?

As far as I’m concerned, the burden of proof is not on the people explaining why they are fake, it’s on the people who claim that they are not. As for who faked them, if I cared, I might follow up on Glover’s evidence regarding Johnny Steel – nobody ever talks about him. The one guy I’m pretty sure had nothing to do with them (sorry Jose) is “Baron” Reavis; if they had been part of his scheme, they would have had clear references to the Peralta family, dates, land grant boundaries, etc. Also, he was familiar enough with the system to know that archived documents were the way to go, not a bunch of rocks covered with “code,” cartoons, and squiggly lines.

Bottom line on the stones – they make no logical (or logistical) sense and every bit of objective evidence and analysis says that they are fake. Unfortunately, there will be people who will never accept that and will believe in their authenticity no matter what. There’s folk that be taken by belief and religiosity and for them what matters in the ‘verse is only what world they conjure from their own desires and then there’s folk be taken by science and logicality and for them the only real world is that they can touch and measure and where one thing follows another according to rules. Ain’t many bridges twixt those two worlds and not much point tryin’ to build one, especially where the lure of treasure’s involved.

Cheers – and welcome back Mike!
Scott

PS to OldBillinUT  I wish I could repay the generosity of your donation to the outfit with some help with your question, but old tree markings are tough and there’s no specific technology or technique out there that I'm aware of to make reading them or reconstructing them any easier. If you could send me a photo or two, I might be able to help if I had a context for it - kind of tree, terrain, proximity to roads or trails, proximity to past logging, mining, sheep ranching, etc, but I can't guarantee anything, of course. Have you tried contacting the Forest Archaeologist where it's located? He or she may have some sense of it or maybe some archival info that could help. Anyway, on behalf of all of us in the FS, Thanks.

Hey Scott,

Methinks you missed the meaning of my statement!

What I was referring to was looking at the actions of the people who possessed the Stone Maps rather than what they said. People talk out of their a$$es all the time, and lie, lie, lie! You can usually tell if thier words REALLY match their TRUE feelings by watching their actions. For instance:

If Travis Tumlinson was either involved with hoaxing the Stone Maps, or knew or believed them to be fakes, his actions while he possessed them would have been totally different than they were:

He kept the stones existence a secret from all but a few people. He took about a dozen trips from Hood River, Oregon to the Supers trying to solve them. He NEVER attempted to sell them . When his health began failing, he gave the Stone Maps to his brother Robert. Robert never attempted to sell the stones either (even though he was living in a tiny apartment on a very small pension). He DID find a partner in his landlord Gene Davis, who sponsored about four trips to Az from Oregon before Robert's health began to fail, at which time he gave the stones back to his infirm brother. They stayed in Travis and Alleen's possession until after his death in 1961. Sometime after he died, Alleen sold them to an old family friend (Clarence O. Mitchell) for $1200.

It doesn't matter what any EXPERTS may say about the Tumlinsons, or what Travis and Robert might have said to ANYBODY. What is important to see is how they treated the Stone Maps while they had them in their possession. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!

THAT was my point, Scott. I didn't imply that my beliefs were more important than any experts' opinions. I listen to what EVERYBODY has to say on a subject. I take what EVERYBODY says with a grain of salt, and see if there is any motives for what they say (book deals etc). I factor MANY things into my opinion forming process.

Best,

Mike

Hey Scott,

    Thanks for the suggestions I looked at the organizational and phone listings and there was no listing for a Forest Archaeologist or Archaeologist for the region. I will check with the State listings tomorrow. Come July I will get back there and take some photos all I have now is a video taken with a gem of a low res camera but was all I had at the time.
    The more I think this over it it seems that someone already under a workload might get a little bent at the suggestion of making a long drive for "doodlings" as they may be viewed by someone not interested in this sort of thing.  It's not too far from what I think is an area where a mineral deposit is near surface per USGS map so I am looking for a tie in if there is one. It has been suggested that this may have been a grave marker and I can't rule that out due to lack of knowledge on my part.
    Thanks for your time and objective point of view it's hard not to want to become wrapped up in the excitement of solving the riddles and anticipation of that reward for all the time spent on our passion.
    Congrats on 28 years of making it work thats twice as far as I ever managed it with 1 or 2. But so far but this time it not been so difficult as before all I had to do was marry an Indian Princess what a hoot eh ?  Take care pard not too many days left to labor and then you are on your own time.

   Bill
      

http://www.mindat.org/usdistance.php?loc=62485
 ;)

SCott


. The one guy I’m pretty sure had nothing to do with them (sorry Jose) is “Baron” Reavis; if they had been part of his scheme, they would have had clear references to the Peralta family, dates, land grant boundaries, etc. Also, he was familiar enough with the system to know that archived documents were the way to go, not a bunch of rocks covered with “code,” cartoons, and squiggly lines.

******************************

Scott how could you?? After my lying like hell to give your tarnished image a bit of undeserved polishing, you traitor you!       "ET TU SCOT" sniff

Seriously, I can think of no-one else that would benefit or go to that much trouble.  I rather imagine that there were a ton of unviewed documents from Reavis that might have explained them.  With his devious thinking he just might have had other undisclosed documents which may have needed the stones casually being found (in time) to prove their authenticity.  When the plan went bad,   (due to an employee of BLM burying them in an unidentifiable place)    they were just quietly  eliminated or simply buried in the other files..


Jose     el Tropical Tramp    a reincarnated Jesuit form 1640.

thanks mesa ,  !

Your Welcome BB

Greetings,

Blindbowman good luck and good hunting, hope you find the treasure that you seek.

I too once thought I had "pinned it down" to a spot, (on Four Peaks, to be specific) which proved to be nothing but a prospect pit someone had dug and found bull quartz.  I too have been lured by a flash of reflected light from a distance, but sometimes that flash of reflected light is nothing but a discarded beer can that happens to line up with the Sun at the right moment to fool a guy.  I hope yours proves to be more than this!   ;)

As to Reavis, ask yourselves this - would he have had access to a topographic map made in 1942, specifically the Florence quadrangle, which has been compared with these Peralta stones and shows a remarkable affinity?  That alone is enough to raise a red flag, and should exonerate the Grand Duke of Arizona Reavis from having added to his spectacular frauds with a set of treasure maps.  Besides there is no reason to suppose that Reavis even heard of the legend of Peralta mines in the Superstitions, since those legends don't make an appearance in history until after the death of Waltz in 1890s.

Oroblanco

Buncha  BULL HEADED =-----------.  Reavis Reavis  hehehehe

As for the stones matching the quadrangle,  since the stones were supposedly made by visual means, why not?  Many maps in the past are startling accurate.  For as small an area as the Supers, which I frankly have never seen nor have I studied the Florance  data,  why not? (this way I am not prejudiced snicker)

The often published map of Tayopa turned out to be almost 99% correct, "once" you identified it's location.
HOWEVER, that has been the unsolved problem for 400 years. Not any more.

The same with the stories associated with the supers.

Of course how do the stones tie in with any of the mines  etc ??

Tropical Tramp

the stones in fact show the locations of both the tunnle and the pit .... but not for the reasons everyone think ...


the indains did show Kino the mine and the spainish dug the tunnle trying to get to the mother load of the vein ...

i can prove this dirrectly with out a dout ...


the stones were made to show the tunnle area not the LDM . but the LDM pit dose show up in on the stones .. so who ever made the stones knew the location of both the tunnle and the pit .... from what i can tell the tunnle was started by the jesuits and than taken over by the spainish than they slaved indains to work it ...

at one point as one acount tells the story the indains got free and killed both the jesuits and the spainish .. between there and  massacre cayon and than put the bodies back in the tunnle and sealed it .....

the stones IMHO are from kino teaching the indains how to read and write . the indains could have  made the maps and he was collecting the ones that pointed out anything of value ... remember only kino and the indains knew the locations of both the tunnle and the pit ...

maybe the indains told kino and he made the maps from what they had showed him !

when you have found the tunnle and the pit and know the real locations you see how the clues fit around them ..

IMHO there is  a holly place of the old ones ... it maybe the oldest indain site  ever found...  . i walked around it ...it is the oldest i have ever seen anywhere...

i am 1/3  mohawk ,  i can not touch any part of that site . i can walk threw it as long as i leave no sign that i was every there . but i can not stop or talk or show others where it is .

do not think i am odd for what i beleave .i stoped when i saw it and put my chiff beads on and gave the hawks cry . you dont under stand , the Apache way ... i have 8 fourfathers  unlike my  full blooded  indains friends ....the tribes that fill my spirit no the  past of these sands ....

the site is tribeable  and will remain so ...

this is why the indains confuse the clues  ...

would you open your soul  and leave it unprotected ?

I want to make sure I am not misunderstanding you.

You believe Father Kino taught the Apache how to read and write, and then the Spaniards "slaved" the Indians while the Jesuits were still around.

If "only kino and the indains knew the locations of both the tunnle and the pit ...", how did the "spainish" get control of the mine(s)?

The "tunnle" is said to be directly below the pit.  Are you saying that it is not close to the pit?

Where can we find the the "acount" of the Indians getting free and killing "both the jesuits and the spainish.."?

I have been around this legend for many years, and have missed a great many of your "facts".

cj

Good luck to you Blindbowman, hope you get those permits and excavate the site(s) you want to.  It might seem like a pain in the neck with all the govt red tape, but hope you understand why they have so much hoops to jump through. 

I still don't see the connection of Father Kino and the Jesuits with the Superstitions, perhaps you can find the proof that will answer all the questions.  There are many legends in the southwest, and many lost mines and lost treasures - some have been found and recovered, most remain lost.  There are many people who do not believe that there are any lost treasures so when someone finds one, it is nice to be able to point to their success, quiets the skeptics.

Oroblanco

Hey BB,

What Mrs. Oro is saying is that to be "part" anything, it has to be in multiples of two (this is because you can only have two people responsible for a birth). And after your parents, everything falls into multiples of four (four grandparents). If your mom was Mohawk, you would be half. If your grandmother was Mohawk, you would be one quarter. If your great grandmother was Mohawk, you would be one eighth. If your great great grandmother was Mohawk, you would be one sixteenth, and so on.

Best,

Mike

My Wife is a full blooded Pilemaker 

I'm not touching that one!

Best,

Mike

Bowman,

"the indains did show Kino the mine and the spainish dug the tunnle trying to get to the mother load of the vein ..."

While it is documented that the Apache, actually Yavapais/Mojave Apache, (Apache only by intermarriage) did make some overtures to Father Kino, and he did make an effort to visit them, that visit never came about.  The expedition did make it as far as San Augustin.  After two days Kino and Manje travelled to Santa Catalina, but that was as far north as they got.

The dividing line between Old Mexico and Arizona, was pretty much the International border as it exists today.  The reason for that division, was the Apache presence north of that line.  Kino never had peaceful relations with the Apache, that I have seen documented.

Had what you say happened with Kino and the Apache, It would have been a momentous event celebrated throughout New Spain.  Both Kino and Manje would have written volumes about any such meeting.  The time required to teach an Apache to read and write Spanish is not missing from the journals of Father Kino.  He would have been very proud of such an accomplishment.

You need to find someone else to be the lead man in your story.  Father Kino is just not historically available for such a role.  That assumes you wish to be historically correct.  I would suggest you research the travels of two Jesuits who came after Kino.  Father's Keller and Sedelmayr come to mind.

There is just too much documented history for Father Kino.  You are barking up the wrong historical tree.

cj

BlindBowman,

Don't pat yourself onthe back too hard yet! You have yet to realize ONE CENT or ANY HARD EVIDENCE of your find. The higher you build yourself up, the harder the fall will be if your dream is not realized.

Kino was indeed capable of making any maps and/or codes of his day. It is common knowledge that he had an avid interest in both maps and mathematics (he was a professor of mathematics at Ingolstadt University bfore coming to New Spain).

Just keep asking yourself this: Why is it, that you can see a 10 foot diameter hole in the ground at an aircraft's altitude, when people have walked, ridden, and crawled over almost every square inch of the Supers for the last 115 years..........and nobody stumbled over it.

IMO you are sorely mistaken. The LDM (if it exists) is hidden by many feet of earth and wood. But I wish you best of luck anyway.

Best,

Mike

Bowman,

All of the above is why you are not looking at the LDM.

cj

to blindbowman,   some on here do very much want to be kept informed as to what transpires with your quest,regardless of what or when it was deposited, so please do not leave us hanging because of what a few people want to believe. i hope that what you have found will be a valueable find for the people of this great country.loking forward to more great post on this subject.   whitt459

Scott,

"As far as I’m concerned, the burden of proof is not on the people explaining why they are fake, it’s on the people who claim that they are not. As for who faked them, if I cared, I might follow up on Glover’s evidence regarding Johnny Steel – nobody ever talks about him."

No one "ever talks about him", because it's obvious that no cowboy created the Stone Maps.  If there was an ounce of truth to the story, Thomas would have dug it up.

The Stone Maps are not the work of a single person.  As I have said elswhere, Hieroglyphic Canyon is the beginning of the trail.  That does not mean the Spaniards took their animals in that way.  The two dots on the right side of the Heart Map are locater dots.  The bottom one is the highest point on Bluff Spring Mountain.  The upper dot is one of two points on the northwest end of Black Top Mesa.   The dagger point rests on Parker Pass.  Anyone with a topographic map can put the rest of the map together with that information.

The Priest and Horse Maps are the obvious work of Ted De Grazia.

Nice to see someone who know the history of the area, along with the history of the Jesuits.  You are obviously well read.

cj

Mr. Bowman,

I am not confused.

Around 35-years ago, when I first became aware of the Stone Maps, I had a hunch that the line on the first map was not a river, stream or any other water course.  My first thought was that it was the southwest outline of the main mountain.

Going on that hunch, I got out my topographic maps, of which I had many, and tried to figure out where the trail was.  Two canyons were in the right location and both made the same right turn around the middle of the arrow.  They were Hog Canyon and Hieroglyphic Canyon.

I now needed to find the dotted/monumented trail that would continue from the top of the ridge.  It was child's play to find the matching outline dropping down into West Boulder Canyon.  Each and every turn was on the topo.  In fact, a tracing of the trail that I had done from the book, could be placed directly on the topo and was to scale.

The rest of the maps were completed from that point.  The obvious location for the person who drew, at least, the first map, was Superstition Peak.

I felt that each of the dots would be a monument of some kind.

Once I had placed most, not all, of the two trail maps on a topo, it was time to go in and see if there were any monuments to be found.  Along with my uncle and brother and dog Juno, we made the trip into Willow Spring.
We came in over Tim's Saddle with backpacks, which is no picnic.

Once we got into Willow Spring, Uncle Chuck started to set up camp.  My brother, dog and I, went south in the canyon to see if we could find a way up onto the ridge that separated West Boulder from East Boulder.  Finding a likely place, we decided to test the climb.  Next thing we knew, we were on top......Juno included.

I was looking for two specific monuments, and believed one of them would point the way to the second.  The trail would take a turn to the north at those two monuments.  We walked along the top for a short distance, probably no more than ten or fifteen minutes, when I spotted the first monument.  I slipped the hammer-loop off my .45, as the hair on the back of my neck was telling me to be nervous. 

We walked up to the monument, which was about the height of a man and pretty much square.  At eye level, there was an obvious sight hole, which looked right at a small hill to the northeast.  Walking around the hill, we found another monument which was the same construction as the first, but no sight hole.  The two monuments turned the trail from an eastern direction to a northern direction along the top of the ridge.

At this point it was quite late, and we decided to start back to camp.  The quickest way down, was to bail off the side and go straight down to Willow Spring.  Part way down, we ran out of daylight.  Chuck had made a pretty good white man's fire in camp, so we had a target.  There were many places where we handed Juno down as we picked our way off the ridge.  Still don't know how we survived that escapade.

That night, a storm came in and Chuck insisted we get the hell out of that canyon the next morning.  It would be thirty-years before I set foot on that ridge again.  In that time, someone has destroyed those monuments.

The heart, the trail to the heart, the triangle, the circle in a circle, are all at the end of the Stone Map Trail.  Not "kinda", not close, not "I think", but precisely at the end of the trail that I placed on my topo thirty-five years ago.  Anyone who takes the time, which you obviously have not, to pull out the maps required, can easily put the whole thing on them.

Once you have done that, you can prove-out the locations by drawing straight lines between each of the locater dots on the Stone Maps.  You can then do the same thing on your topo, and you will notice that the lines run through the same places on the topo as the Stone Maps.

To give you the correct triangulation, the locater dot by the arrow on the dagger is the peak on the north side of Tim's Saddle.  You will notice that the line between the highest point on Bluff Spring Mountain and Tim's Saddle runs directly through the circle in a circle.

To give you a better idea on the location of the locater dot on Black Top Mesa, you will follow the Bull Pass/Dutchman's trail directly to the top hill.  At that point, there is an old trail breaking southeast (not shown on topo's) which circles around the lower hill and drops into Needle Canyon.  That lower hill is the other locater dot.

Anyone who wants to discuss this information, or has questions, is welcome to ask.  It's all an open book now.

cj

Bowman,

Some people talk, and some just lay out the proof.  You Sir, are a talker and a damn good one.  That and five bucks will get you a fair cup of coffee.

Don't know how much time you have spent in the Superstition Mountains, but there are a number of "stone houses".  I can enter the mountains from any place, and take you to an old mine or shaft.  Trick is, to find one that actually has some kind of valuable ore in it.  Most are barren.

That would exclude the eastern part of the range.  A number of old silver mines over there.

Now you may have located the LDM, which will be a filled in hole in the ground, but it is nowhere near the Stone Map trail. 

I am no longer "at it".  I will leave it to others to walk in the footsteps of ghosts.

In truth, the best thing I could wish for you, is that you have not found the LDM.  If you have, you will only understand that comment when you finally get inside.

cj

[In the thread "TREASURE TROVRE PERMITS" Pg 1 JSCOTTWOOD wrote"]

cj wrote,

Do you believe a shaft and a tunnel will be sufficient evidence to get a Treasure Trove Permit?  Do you know what is required in time and evidence to get such a permit?  How many years do you think it will take.....just to get a yes or no?  As far as I know, only one permit has ever been issued.

In the thread "TREASURE TROVRE PERMITS"  Pg 1 JSCOTTWOOD wrote"

For the most part, if there is something historic or archaeological there, we usually just don’t issue the permit. The only time that we have gone through this entire process within the last couple of decades was for Ron Feldman’s treasure trove permit at Rogers’ Trough last year. It cost him a bunch of money and all he could claim for it was the confirmation of what we already suspected was a horizontal well that provided water to the mining camp and mill located just downslope.
Assuming that you have made it through this gauntlet and spent wads of cash on your search and you do actually find something that qualifies as a treasure trove, it is entirely possible that you may not be able to keep much or any of it. Basically, the only ‘treasure’ that you can keep would be a portion of any bullion, plate, coins, or unmounted gems, assuming that it clears escrow without any other claims of ownership. Any and all other artifacts are and will remain the property of the United States. Your portion of the trove would be determined as part of a negotiated settlement with the Federal Government. You would also have to declare this as taxable income"

Looks to me like cj is correct. (At least as far as the last two decades is concerned)


Blindbowman,

Are you getting the message yet?

Blazer

Blazer,

"It cost him a bunch of money and all he could claim for it was the confirmation of what we already suspected was a horizontal well that provided water to the mining camp and mill located just downslope."

I consider myself a friend of the Feldman's, but I predicted what they would find to a number of my friends, at the beginning of the dig.  Many asked my opinion and I said just what JScottWood said.  One of the people who asked and received that reply, was Dr. Thomas Glover.

Most of us familiar with the history of the Southwest, are aware of the two groups who would normally take the time and effort to open up and improve old springs in the wilderness.  That would be the ranchers and the miners.
This was only one of many that have been so worked over the years.

Having said that, I would not surmise that Ron Feldman was totally surprised at what he found.....or did not find.
My guess would be that he was totally satisfied with what took place.  There are a number of people, I would imagine, who would agree with that statement, but they will remain nameless.

My conclusion about the spring, was my own.  The rest comes from information supplied by knowledgable friends.

cj

["Opening the Lost Dutchman Mine"]

cj,

It si a real shame it ended up that way. Too bad someone didn't tell the Feldmans the story about it being an old spring. I heard him speak about it at the AJ high school before the dig "Opening the Lost Dutchman Mine" was the advertised topic for the lecture. He seemed to believe it was going to be something big in the way of an old mine, cache or something like that.

What I was really driving at was to let blindbowman know that it isn't all as simple as he thinks it is.

Blazer

Blazer,

There is no reason to believe that telling Bowman anything will have a noticeable effect.

I doubt Ron needed to be told the "spring" story.  IMHO, he knew exactly what he was doing and the complete history of the area.  In fact, more than just about anyone.

cj

Bowman,

Sound like you have it down to a T.

Good luck and good hunting.

cj

I'd like to thank scott for taking the time to post not only the law of the treasure trove permit but the laymans version we all can understand along with the real world version of the "how it goes" portion based on the position of the gsa employee.

What i don't understand is the disregard for a chance...even if slight that a small chapter of arizona history might actually come to see the light of day in regards to the spanish be it conquistadors...or the brown and black robes?

Yes and indian named pope successfully lead a revolt in 1680 in new mexico and a lot of records were destroyed...and they quite possably could have contained viable records to prove the spaniards explored a bit farther than previously thought.

Although Kenworthy's books might be a wild flight of fancy....i do believe there are some truths and a lot more half truth's between the covers of a least one of his books. Why did he miss label meanings in his book....my guess more than likely to profit from the sales of his books and provide fly paper for the flies...but thats just my opinion.

But i do believe in the western us there are way to many formations made from various types of rocks that carry a universal theme hundreds and thousand miles from each other....i'm not sure how we can go about debunking any of it due to the lack of historical records...but i can say this....over the years with a good eye for out of the norm things.....and with some field help from a certain poster in this string of events...and a good kick in the butt out the door to as we say in the army theses days "Boots on the ground"....i have learned alot on my own abouth the supposed none existant...figmant of my imagination...spanish trail markers. And it is truely amazing once you figure out parts of the supposed code how they not only lead you somewhere but help you along the waqy to the next point with subtle reminders along the way so you do not stray from the intended azimuth.....

I read on this site in the finds dept just how the gov in england deals with things....and it seems a model we should really take a look into if our gov wants to be fair and make all parties involved happy. I see now why so much history in the sw has been lost to private discovery as the alternative in going the just and legal way is just a losing propisition from the get go. I did recieve some advise from the younger kenworthy earlier this year as i was just curious as to the courses ava legaly....and his advise was that since the gov doesn't play nice....follow nyour markers and once you figure out the code....dig it up so it can be viewed...DO NOT TOUCH IT.....take pics to prove its existance as the spaniards did not always hide things in a closed up mineshaft....and cover it back up. Why....when it comes to negotiating with our wonderful gov....and you hold to evidence to an unpopular truth...and you alone know where its located at....people suddenly begin to listen....imagine that? I'm sure the value of one intact gold or silver bar showing spanish markings found near phx would have the historical community flipped upside and skidding out of control. And i am proud to say the younger kenworthy highly advised against removing the find and smelting it down and destroying the history....however if you place yourself in our general position as ametuer historians as we learn alot along the way...it is discouraging that simply because we have no written history...it doesn't exist as an answer....really puts a damper on discovery.

In the same breath...i understand that scott has most likely had to deal with way to many crack pots in his time...as i myself got to experience the haha your funny and btw here's the front door when i brought a few pics in to an az state archy in downtown phx around 97-98. So when i sit and contemplate the weigh and measure system of doing it right vs. doin it the un approved way....i really have to think long and hard about the decision.

Now if they had a system like england....where maybe i recieved x percent...the gov got x percent to fund agencies that have to deal with it like scott's...instead of the it belongs to the gov...and by the way thanx for bringing this to our attention...enjoy your stay in the fed pen for the next 30 years and thanx for the house approach....we might actually get somewhere....


And as far as the LDM or the supposed peralta stones.....i can only answer in this manner...there are valid spanish trail markers out there...why hasn't anyone tried to just forget about the LDM and just get back to basics and follow the markers? Yes...they might not lead to the dutchman mine...but they got there somehow...and have a purpose....you'd be anmazed at how they lead you along and what side stops they make.....

Ok...enough outa me...back to drillin this gas well...

BTW...MB and randy.....looks like i'll be back down around the end of june to continue the work....email me. Or MB....i'll call ya thursday as we should be at 7900 ft. in the am and ready to circ and come on out after a short trip so i'll be at the usual 48 hours off portion of the event....

DW

and yes ,  we have undisputable evidence !

What we have is a boatload of bar talk.

Bowman,

"if haveing undisputable evidence is what you mean,  than yes CJ.... as Azstomper has pionted out it dose help to be able to navagate vs guessing ! lol ..."

How, exactly, does one "navagate" in the Superstitions if they have a hard time seeing the letters on a computer keyboard?  Seems like a huge task, in and of itself.

An expedition being led into the Superstition wilderness by a blind bowman will make quite a story.  I assume there is no maintained trail leading to your "undisputable evidence", so a seeing eye dog will end up following rabbit droppings.  Best to leave some of your equipment behind, and replace it with jugs of water.......lot's of water.

Like I said......Good luck and good hunting.

Joe

BC,

I appreciate your concern over my lack of sensibilities and if I ever need a watchdog, I will give you a call.  

I did not "run down the blind and disabled", except in your mind.  I work daily with people with disabilities, and merely made an observation based on BB's revelations.

Get a life.....Sir.

Joe

Hey CJ: I have it from a good source - initials are d--- - that blind bowman is not really blind, he can spot a chick a mile away, especially if she is flung together as a female should be..

Don Jose de La Mancha

BC,

"If you had any decency in you at all you would apologize to the Blind Bowman and all blind people for your 'Observations'".

Someone here is blind alright, but it ain't the blindbowman.  In case you missed the bowman's comments on his old malady, he is no longer blind.  If he were, your defense would make sense, as he would not be aware of my "dig"(s) and would have need of a Crusader Rabbit.

"Hiding in your self imposed 'Observatory' while making disembodied remarks is no excuse."

Could you describe what my "self imposed 'Observatory'" is....exactly?  And why do you say I am "Hiding"?  Anyone, with above average intelligence, knows exactly who I am, where I live my phone number and a good deal of my personal history.  In your case.....I am hiding in plain sight, so to speak.

If you are going to engage in some kind of a battle of wits with me......Sir, you will need to borrow something more than the 1/2 that is your own.

If I have offended bowman with those comments, he is more than capable of defending himself.  In the event that he feels the need of your assistance, he is only half the man I think he is.  I expect he will stick a few needles in me, which we do on a regular basis, and we will both end up smiling over the exchange....much as I am doing in this exchange with you.

We have been helping the elderly and the disabled for the last seventeen years of our lives.  We consider ourselves blessed to have that honor and privilege.  No doubt you receive the same rewards in your life.

"Oh, and I do have a life at least beyond posting gibberish every hour of the day like you do CJ......Sir."

Now that is harsh!  I assume you don't really believe that is a true statement.  Are you hinting that I am posting....more than my share?  If so, what do you consider to be a fair number?

"Gibberish"?  I doubt anyone else has trouble following what I am saying, but it's possible, since you do.  I don't know how I can slow down the written word, but I will try to use words that you can read at a slower pace.  That may also make them more intelligible for you. ;)

Thanks for taking notice of my modest efforts here.

Joe Ribaudo

Randy....My friend,

"I really think you misread CJ's post. He can say some uncanny crap sometimes,...."

I had no idea any of my comments rose, or fell, to the "uncanny crap" level.  Could you quote some examples, so I can recognize and avoid such things in the future?  As a friend, I would appreciate it.

"Seriously, think about this for a second or 2, how can a blind man type on a computer?"

One only needs finger(s) to type, not sight.

Thanks,

Joe

I guess i either need to email scott or post a few pics...although better judgement and MB's words tell me to follow caution...but then again my dear friend MB has been known to stir the pot from time to time so here is a very small portion of what i have that is most definately "North" of the Gila river boundry....

If not spanish trail markers....then what are they and who were they made by? If i need to keep an open mind i am more than willing to sit back and take in all opinions....

MB...please don't beat my butt for this.....

DW

HI:  BB. A number of years ago I picked some type of an infection,  bug, or virus in both eyes.  After a few weeks of real hurt  it stopped, but my eyes were fixed from scar tissue.  I could walk but even with glasses I could not read newspaper headlines.  Everything was a blur.  The doctor simply said "sorry, at this point there is nothing that we can do".

At that time I was flying commercially and had just negotiated a tentative contract to fly daily flights from Mira fFores field in Baja Calif to LA international, to Phoenix.  This of course blew it.  I still could not drive a car.

With nothing else available, I went with two friends  looking for the Lost mines of  La Tarasca & Las Pimas.  As I mentioned, I could see just a blur, but enough so that I could walk.  We had a pair of 10 power binoculars which I used since there was enough adjustment range that I could see somewhat at a distance with  them.  Unfortunately due to my limited vision I stumbled and promply dropped them knocking them out of alignment.  I had to use them this way for a week. Each day after a few minutes my eyes were so strained that it hurt like h---, even aspirin would not help. but it was necessary to use them..

One day I felt something rip in both eyes, it did not hurt but from that point my eyes returned to normal, I now have 20-20 vision again.  The doctor that examined them said that i had had a miracle and that the scar tissue had torn loose and my eyes were capable of focusing again.

So in a small way I can sympathize with you, I do understand what you are talking about,      but of course yer mind is shot from too much peyote, leave my Tayopa alone !

Heheheheheheh. 

Don Jose de La Mancha

Az my friend, I am afraid that your picture  #1 of what appears to be a  + or X on the rock is actually a natural faulting.  You can trace it on the rock easily.  If I can ever figure how to make a legit Bit map picture from it,  I will show you what I mean.  It is not man made, sorry.

Donjose de La Mancha

p.s.  Peeps, how do I copy it as a  Bit map or JPEG in order to edit it?

Real,
Just right click and choose 'save as' and then at the bottom of the dialogue box that pops up simply choose jpeg or bmp file format.

so any one that wants a permit can, not just post a statement like this one ! ( " under a shelving rock where the dirt was soft ,i dug a grave and buried him ") and than post a photo of the real grave site and the bones of his nephew ... like this , and prove that all the BS about find the grave site in the past was total   Bs, because this is the real grave site of the nephew of the dutchman  ....undisturbed ...taken the 7th of Decmeber 2006 by the blindbowman ....take a good look , thats as close as you are ever going to get to this grave site ... you should have beleaved me to start with .. now its to late ...i found this site threw perfection and hard work and i am sorry to say my 3 sites yelded nothing but going into the mts and in 3 days i found this grave site ....now i just dont feel like playing anymore ....and lol i did find the real stone house and i did get photos as well...

Errr----You might want to look at this
SH.

if someone doesn't agree with something somebody says or thinks its outragous or crazy, all you have to do is not respond to the post and post your own opinion and ignore the person. Take the thread in another direction and talk with the "intelligent" people and ignore the far out ones. Or start a new thread. Thats not hard to do is it. what I see is every single post blindBowman made was jumped on and baited him time after time. If he hadnt been baited over and over again he would never have posted half the things he did.  just my opinion but i stand on my original post.  why would a serious person want to endlessly debate someone they feel is outrageous or crazy or a drug head ? i would want to seriously talk to other serious people not engage in what you have been doing here. You can try and dress it up any way you like, and explain it any way you like, but what your doing is called trolling.

I am with bowman on this one, BC what is your problem? what does all that have to do with this thread?

BB's LDM rants sound preposterous to me, but this is a public forum and any of us can refute his ideas here if we are interested enough to post a response.  The last time I checked, there has been no credible evidence brought forth to identify where the LDM is located - if it exists at all.  His hot air differs from others' hot air on the topic in that his ideas differ drastically from the accepted dogma available to the public, which IMHO is disinformation to begin with.  In any event, we all have the option to ignore BB, the option I usually choose.

That said, it's also a fact that none of us have any right to judge BB's private life, past, present or future.  Those who are quick to criticize alleged aspects of his personal life are showing that they may have character flaws that are much more destructive than BB's personal habits.  Personally, I look in on this forum for LDM banter, not to hear what other posters' personal value judgements are.  Peddle your character assassinations elsewhere.

Very well put

BC,

Like I said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I put my name on my posts and they are on a public site.  That will always create some heat.

Here's another opinion:  I see no value in going after bowman the way you, and some others, are doing.  He is an open book at this time and those who want to have a dialog with him.....will.

Even though I did not believe his spill, I enjoyed batting the facts back and forth.  It was pure entertainment and well worth the price of admission.  He sent my own research in new directions......such as the fact that John Bourke believed he had found  "Aztec Ruins" close to the Superstitions.  While I had read his Journal some time ago, I had forgotten about the ruins.  Fits right in with bowman's story.

Joe

Bowman,

You did not address the question of why you, a witch, seer, shaman......etc. identified the bones of a horse/mule, as belonging to the nephew of Jacob Waltz?  How could that happen?

Joe

Something I say on a regular basis is:  History is changed one word at a time.  In his rendition of the Holmes account of Waltz killing his nephew, Bowman is adding an avalanche of words.

The Holmes story is so full of historical holes (documented), that to use many of his "facts" is courting fantasy.  According to Holmes, Waltz said:  We left the mine one morning and started for Phoenix...by the way of Fort McDowell.  That night we camped at Agua Escondido,,,we had a terrible argument that night, the worst we'd had before.......I shot him in the forehead between the eyes...I then took a piece of chain and putting it around his neck...dragged him under a shelving rock and where the dirt was soft I dug...a grave...and buried him."

They spent one day leaving the mountains, and camped that night at "Agua Escondido".  Bowman states that Waltz killed his nephew  "1/8 of a mile" from the "hidden camp", and that the "large cache" was "at the hidden camp".

This means that the camp that Waltz used every night while working the mine was a full day's hike from the mine.

Holmes states that Waltz said:  "I was not a citizen of the United States nor had I declared my intentions to become one...so for that reason I couldn't locate and record the mine."  This alleged statement is one of the things that casts the most doubt, for me, that this story is anything but fiction.

Holmes had no way of knowing that Waltz had declared his intention to become a citizen in Natchez, Mississippi, in 1848.  A copy of that document can be found on page 114 of Dr. Glover's "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz".  He also had no way of knowing that he became a Naturalized Citizen in Los Angeles, California on the 19th. of July, 1861.

Waltz came to Arizona in 1862.  From 1863 to 1865 his wherabouts are documented for each year.  For 1866 and 1867, I do not recall seeing any record of where he was.  In March of 1868 he homesteaded on the north bank of the Salt River.  Perhaps the missing years were when he found the LDM, but some believe he located it sometime between 1872 and 1878.

Bowman has mixed up some of the words from different parts of the Holmes story.  He has also made huge leaps of "logic".

Joe Ribaudo

This "treasure trove permits" conversation is really going down the toilet.
BB, If the dutchman didn't want anyone to find the mine why not just keep quiet.Why would this tired old dieing man go to all the trouble of trying to mislead them by giving them bad information. If he really didn't want anyone else to find it, it would have been so much easier to just keep quiet.

Bill       

Bill,

Here is something to consider if you are using the Holmes' Manuscript for a source:

When the manuscript first surfaced, Brownie claimed he did not write it, and had never seen it before.  He later said it was his product.  Now why would he deny writing it in the first place?

I believe there is some very good information in there, but I doubt Waltz told Dick Holmes one word of it.

The "deathbed confession" is pure fiction.  (opinion)

Joe

CJ,
Please expand on that if you wouldn't mind. It's obvious there are a lot of questions about the Holmes manuscript but I got the impression that Dr. Glover felt that there may be something to it. Are you suggesting that Dick holmes was not with Waltz when he died or he just didn't tell him anything? Do you think the whole thing was a product of Brownies imagination? or Dicks imagination? and why create such a work of fiction?

Bill   

So did dick really steal that box of ore from under the bed then just lie about it as Julia said? 

Bill,

Whatever I say concerning Dick Holmes is pure opinion based on around 49 years of research into the legends surrounding the Superstition Mountains.  That and five bucks will get me a fair cup of coffee.

Some of the things in Brownie's manuscript can be shown to be false, mostly because of timelines.  Waltz being a cold blooded killer does not conform with accounts of those who actually knew the man.  His killing his nephew, for the reasons stated, is provably not true.

I, along with most other LDM fans, believe that Dick stole the gold from under Waltz's deathbed.  Once it came out that it was missing, it makes sense that he would say that Waltz gave it to him.  I believe the entire account was made up to bolster that story and put Waltz in a bad light.  His closest friends would end up painted with the same brush......no sympathy.

How, later on, could he admit to his son that he was a thief and liar?  They were on the ground early, searching for the LDM.  He knew it was somewhere in the Superstitions.  Much of the story made public by Brownie, would be to mislead other searchers.  You may have notice that when he started his final.....methodical search, he began on the main mountain and worked his way northeast.

Julia Thomas and Rhiney made their first effort to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.  They were doomed to fail and eventually had to bring others into the search.  Not a job for two greenhorns.  I have no doubts that Dick spent a lot of time following her, as she had the best information for finding the mine......probably the only information.

I am at the store so that's the best I can do for now.

Joe Ribaudo

CJ
I'm am relitivly new on this subject so bear with me, but wasn't dick holmes only about 15ys old when he supposedly heard that death bed confession and about all the people that he had killed
to protect his mine
Bill   
 

Bill,

Even though I am away from any sources, I can say, with certainty, that you have mixed up some facts.  Dick Holmes was around 15 when he supposedly attempted to follow Waltz to his mine.  Waltz knew he was there all along, eventually confronted him and is said to have threatened to kill him if he ever tried it again.

Holmes did have some very good information, but it is unlikely that it came directly from Waltz.  As it turned out, some of the things he said about the LDM were true, just not the directions on how to get there.  Some things he got right were the descriptions of the mine and the area around it.  The rest is pretty much a crock.....

If Holmes had any inkling of the directions to the mine, he would have found it without much trouble at all.  Fact is......he did not have a clue.

There is not a shred of evidence that Waltz ever killed anyone.

Lot's of opinion here, so take it for what you think it's worth. ;)

Joe

CJ,
yes I see he should have been about 26. I'm just curious after spending over 40yrs researching the LDM do you really believe there ever was a real mine?

Bill 

Bill,

Through no efforts of my own, I know that the LDM does exist.  As it's not my story to tell, that's all I will say.  Other than some time spent with others, I have never actually searched for the LDM.

Joe

What ever became of Gideon Roberts? he was right there with dick holmes. Was he ever interviewed?
He must have heard the same things that Dick did.Did he get any of that gold in the soap box or did he ever comment on it?
Bill

Bill,

I believe Gideon was something of a Gypsy, and perhaps the black sheep of the family.

The Roberts family history has been well kept by the ancestors.  Aurum is someone who knows the history quite well.  I would suggest a personal message, if you are interested.

In the past, Aurum has been very generous with his knowledge and it encompasses a wide range of subjects......especially concerning the Superstitions, as well as Arizona/Phoenix history.  His personal, life long, history with the Apache Indians is probably the best to be found, outside tribal historians.

Good luck, and good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

HI Peeps & Scott:  This is  a fascinating  bit of reading and revelation. This is an excerpt from an article by Michael Bernette.  Makes one wonder  -----!

Don Jose de La Mancha
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://uwex.us/


It should also be pointed out that those grave-robbing claims were silent when the turret of the U.S.S. Monitor was recovered and when the Confederate Navy submarine C.S.S. Hunley was raised – both of which contained human remains. Wreck divers no longer recover human skulls and place them in dive shop windows or curio cabinets, just as archaeologists no longer haphazardly recover artifacts from Egyptian tombs and marine biologists and geologists no longer utilize explosives to take samples from coral reefs. While there are very isolated instances of divers dredging out U-boats that contain human remains in order to recover artifacts, that practice is largely condemned within the diving community. Furthermore, as pointed out earlier, that practice is illegal.

One could point out that archaeological projects such as the Monitor and Hunley recover artifacts for the public good. Information is dispersed and artifacts are put on public display, whereas wreck divers hide away their artifacts so the public cannot enjoy them. What the general public does not recognize is the fact that the vast majority of archaeological artifacts recovered are boxed up and housed in vast repositories rather than put on display. Further, many agencies and universities are confronting a “curation crisis,” as in some cases they do not have the space or economic resources to house millions of artifacts; in 1997 the Smithsonian Institution alone housed over 140 million items, of which 122 million were natural history objects. An article that appeared in Federal Archaeology cited that 30 percent of non-federal facilities have already run out of room to store or exhibit archaeological objects. Space is not the only issue, as conserved objects must be maintained under specific environmental conditions to insure their preservation. As documented in an American Archaeology article, proper climate-controlled storage appeared to be the exception, rather than the rule. After visiting three universities that stored artifacts from federal lands, a National Park Service archaeologist reported that, “In 99.9 percent of the cases, I felt the storage conditions were substandard." The worst example was described thusly: "The collections were in a storage room where overhead pipes leaked onto the artifacts that were in paper bags. The provenience information written on the bags in pencil was unreadable. All the metal artifacts were rusted. All the bone had turned to mush."

so the jesuit treaure trove could be saver where it is now...?

MesaB
Not on this site often and just saw your Reply #231 #232 on: January 12, 2007. The photos you posted were taken over by Geronimo head just before you go over the ridge toward Fish Creek Canyon. Some old prospectors believed the red rock was a sign of something. They built a house there in the rocks. Some of the makeshift walls are still there as is the foundation part of some others (including concrete, if my memory is correct, where the screening was). I was told that the Indians used the red rock to make paint. Take it for what it's worth, I wasn't there when all this supposedly took place.

Look just north of there on the next hillside (separated by a wash about fifteen to twenty feet deep at that point) and you will find old iron parts used for mining/crushing ore. The iron parts are in a depression about 8 to 12 feet deep (never thought I would need to remember that part) that may or may not have been dug to hide the equipment. I would have brought some (one piece) out but they are way too heavy to carry with my other gear. If I spend some time maybe I can find some of the pictures I took there in 2004.
-Ken C

It looks like I stand corrected. With a little wider angle and background in these pictures, Yes, that is the area I remembered from a few years ago. "The Paint Mine" as you call it. Didn't remember the "hole" being that shallow and RED as well. I only wanted to be gone at the time because someone was using the "hole" as a campsite (for whatever), complete with sleeping bag and I don't take kindly to getting shot at.

Greetings friends,

Just one thing for consideration, for those who look to the Holmes manuscript for clues to find the LDM.  When judging truth, it sometimes pays to compare words with actions.  According to the Holmes manuscript, the very first landmark one is to head for (from the deathbed 'confession') is First Water.  Hmm, then why is that Dick Holmes immediately set off to Hidden Water, and not First Water, the moment that Waltz was dead?  See what I mean?  Just my own opinion here, but I would NOT consider the Holmes version to be useful in locating the LDM in any way.  Remember, this was a set of instructions given by Waltz to a man he had threatened to KILL if he caught him trying to follow him again - so why should he tell such a man exactly how to get his greatest treasure?  Would YOU tell someone you considered a claim-jumper, bushwhacker and sneak, exactly how to get YOUR treasures, on your deathbed?  So why would Jacob have done so.  Use your own logic, but consider all the angles before leaping.

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Oro,

It turns out that a great deal of the Holmes information was true.  I doubt very much that any of that information came directly from Jacob Waltz.......to Dick Holmes.

When Brownie Holmes finally decided to make a systematic search of the Superstitions, he started on the main mountain and worked his way east from there.  Don't believe he had a clue where the mine was, other than information/stories which must have been rampant in every corner of Arizona.

He had no idea what was truth and what was fiction.

Joe Ribaudo

[That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!]

Greetings friends Cactusjumper and Blindbowman and everyone,

Joe R wrote:

When Brownie Holmes finally decided to make a systematic search of the Superstitions, he started on the main mountain and worked his way east from there.  Don't believe he had a clue where the mine was, other than information/stories which must have been rampant in every corner of Arizona.

He had no idea what was truth and what was fiction

I have no reason to doubt your conclusions re: Brownie, and certainly did not intend to cast aspersions on Brownie.  I have never met the man, but friends of mine who have, had nothing but nice things to say about him.  I don't suspect that Brownie has intentionally misled anyone.  In fact, when he says that Dick told him verbatim, I tend to believe him, however in this case the falsehoods originated with Waltz, and not with either Brownie or Dick.  If this theory is correct, both Dick and Brownie are victims of Jacob Waltz's deception, and this is my opinion.

Blindbowman - you could be right - the only way to find out is to test the theory in the Superstitions on the ground.  Chasing down legends is not for the faint of heart, it takes a lot of faith, belief and self confidence - and there are legends which have been proven before.  One must also be willing to face the possibility that it could be wrong.  However in any search, even finding nothing is making progress, as one can then rule out an area or some clue.  Jacob Waltz mentioned a number of clues, to various persons; most are vague enough that they could "fit" with several locations.  I very much doubt that all of the clues attributed to Waltz are actually from him, but a select few are very important because they can be 'confirmed' to some extent through other sources. 

"Reiny, you better listen!  That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" (Jacob Waltz to his friend Reiny Petrasch)

"The mine is in the most god-awful place you ever saw!" (Joe Deering)

Other clues such as being able to see the old Military trail from the mine, but not the mine from the trail, or having to pass a "cow barn" on the trail, are not too helpful either.  Even if you can positively identify which old Military trail was being referred to, you would then have to search every possible area that could view that trail at any point!  Some folks have taken the clue about the "pointed peak" to mean it must be referring to Four Peaks, but in fact there are no less than a half dozen pointed peaks in the region! 

Blindbowman wrote:

let me make it a little more fun ...

" there is many clues  to the mines location  ,and many  maps .... yet , something is wrong with one of them ,what  dose not fit the legend ,what is wrong and why ? "

simple questions, with a very complex answer ...

I would propose that there is some detail wrong with many of the legends and maps, in some cases rather drastic errors, in others, perhaps innocent mistakes.  I agree, this question requires a very complicated answer to even attempt to cover all.

Mrs Oro and I are in the process of packing to move out of AZ for some time, and have not had the time (recently) to read all the new posts much less contribute much in the way of input here in T-net.  I had pretty well decided not to ever bother wasting more time and effort on another search for Waltz's lost mine, but when we return I just might take one more hike.  IF I were to do so, I would not be working off any set of clues or directions, nor any maps (be they stone, paper, parchment, leather etc) but by a very old and reliable method, the same method used by Waltz, according to people who knew him in Florence before he discovered the mine and shortly afterward, during which time the location was supposedly "no great secret". 

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. ;)

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Oro,

I doubt there is a published Dutch Hunter in history that has given us the whole truth.......
as they know it.  That would include, of course, Brownie Holmes.

Now Brownie stated that his father never lied to him, and he never lied to.......  That may very well be true, but........Brownie stated that Jacob Waltz gave his father the gold from under his bed.

That could have been true, but odds are it's not.  If not true, either Dick lied to Brownie or Brownie, knowing the truth, lied.  Take your pick.  There are people of impeccable character, alive today, who knew Brownie very well.  I have heard they trusted him completely.

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all.  He was in such bad shape that Julia knew he was close to death. It is unlikely that he could have told anyone such a long and detailed story.  My guess would be that he was drowning in his own fluid and semiconscious.

All of the above is opinion, based on 48 years of casual research.  Others have spent a great deal more time on the LDM legend than I have.

Take care,

Joe

 i know who, where ,why ,when and how the treasure got there ...

game ,set ,match ...

[where]

Blindbowman wrote:

game ,set ,match ...

Okay I'll bite;

Who put the treasure there?

What was the treasure referred to?

When was the treasure hidden?

How was the treasure transported to the site?

Lastly and most importantly, where is the treasure hidden?

Friend Blindbowman, the statement you have made is of the type that will surely get people excited and who then want "proof" to back up the statements.  I hope you are not simply toying with us poor treasure-hunters for amusement....


Cactusjumper wrote:

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all.

Greetings friend Joe; your conclusion seems quite reasonable, based on the rapidly deteriorating health of Waltz and imminent death.  Just how much talking could a man literally dying of pneumonia do?  If Waltz told Holmes nothing on his deathbed, (and like you pointed out, this seems logical and reasonable) then Holmes' information originated elsewhere.  We know that Holmes did in fact attempt to trail Waltz to the mine site on at least one occasion, and several of the "clues" in the Holmes manuscript can be found among the statements of bar-room folk of Phoenix.  These statements (like going to First Water for example) MIGHT have originated with Waltz, in which case it could easily have been the sort of thing he told fellows at the saloon, almost in a 'teasing' way.  Dick Holmes could have picked up some or all of his 'clues' from such sources, then put them together with the portion of trail that he knew from following Waltz in person, and we end up with the Holmes manuscript.  It is just my opinion but I do not put faith in the Holmes manuscript, for the reasons we have discussed earlier, plus the fact that Dick and Brownie followed their own 'clues' (probably including information NOT included in the Holmes manuscript) for many years without success. 

For anyone who desires to follow out the clues in the Holmes manuscript, I sure wish you good luck and good hunting; you are sure to get some good exercise, see some of the most beautiful country in the USA, and most likely have a great time doing it.  Many, many others already have done just this procedure, and have failed to locate Waltz's mine, but  who knows?  Maybe you will be the 'lucky' one, or perhaps the 'unlucky' one?  As I mentioned earlier, personally I would not rely on the Holmes manuscript for any good info on finding that lost mine - and for that matter the bits of info passed on to Julia and Reiney (those bits we are aware of today, doubtless there were other tidbits not known publicly) are hardly of much more help - for in this case we may have less doubts as to whether Waltz would have deliberately misled his friends, but the "clues" are vague enough to make them almost useless.  I think a treasure hunter is in a way 'hamstringing' himself by trying to stick to clues for the Lost  Dutchman Mine, as these clues have not been helpful to the hundreds of thousands of people who have searched for it. 

I too have been lured by the siren-song of "clues" to find the LDM, only to get a lot of exercise and great scenery but little in the way of gold out of the time,  efforts and expense.  If one looks at this in a different way, there is a different way to find the mine - and my money goes on this 'alternate' method as the way it will be found.  What 'alternate' way, a casual reader might well ask?  Good old prospecting techniques, the very way a great number of mines have been located over the centuries....however this is a most tedious and time-consuming task, and requires great patience and diligence to be successful. 

Good luck and good hunting to you friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

[where]

Blindbowman wrote:

game ,set ,match ...

Okay I'll bite;

Who put the treasure there?   the Templar knights , your proff ,remove the hat and hair from the templar priest on the priest stone  ,you are now looking at a templar priest staped with his own sword that looks like a cross the cross of  the chruch that has betrayed the templars ...this stone is not a stone at all it is in fact a peice of a stone tablet from the temple mount .have it tested i will wait ...lol

What was the treasure referred to? it is called the treasure of the temple mount or the treasure of christ !

When was the treasure hidden? around the years of 1307

How was the treasure transported to the site? in a vast fleet of templar ships that sailed by the way of the Azores at Ponta Delgeda , Remedios

Lastly and most importantly, where is the treasure hidden?  LOl.... i am working on a full legal clam ...but look at this .


do you remember this statement from the jim haydock story of the lost jesuit treasure of the tayopa treasure list ,


,"Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo"

let me translate it for you !

  2 silver chalices
  12 solid gold cups
  6 gold plates from jesus maria
  12 solid gold cups
  6 gold plates from cristo
  2 large communion plates of gold
 

 what you are looking at is the place seting for the last super table ...


you dont have to beleive me , but the name Cristo in latin means Christ and the name maria means Mary ..

 if you look the name is Jesus maria .. not his mother maria....christ and his wife were at the last super ,, here is your prove ...i have found the treasure and it is not  spainish,  jesuit or fransican...


   

Friend Blindbowman, the statement you have made is of the type that will surely get people excited and who then want "proof" to back up the statements.  I hope you are not simply toying with us poor treasure-hunters for amusement....


Cactusjumper wrote:

I doubt Jacob Waltz told Dick Holmes anything......at all.

Greetings friend Joe; your conclusion seems quite reasonable, based on the rapidly deteriorating health of Waltz and imminent death.  Just how much talking could a man literally dying of pneumonia do?  If Waltz told Holmes nothing on his deathbed, (and like you pointed out, this seems logical and reasonable) then Holmes' information originated elsewhere.  We know that Holmes did in fact attempt to trail Waltz to the mine site on at least one occasion, and several of the "clues" in the Holmes manuscript can be found among the statements of bar-room folk of Phoenix.  These statements (like going to First Water for example) MIGHT have originated with Waltz, in which case it could easily have been the sort of thing he told fellows at the saloon, almost in a 'teasing' way.  Dick Holmes could have picked up some or all of his 'clues' from such sources, then put them together with the portion of trail that he knew from following Waltz in person, and we end up with the Holmes manuscript.  It is just my opinion but I do not put faith in the Holmes manuscript, for the reasons we have discussed earlier, plus the fact that Dick and Brownie followed their own 'clues' (probably including information NOT included in the Holmes manuscript) for many years without success. 

For anyone who desires to follow out the clues in the Holmes manuscript, I sure wish you good luck and good hunting; you are sure to get some good exercise, see some of the most beautiful country in the USA, and most likely have a great time doing it.  Many, many others already have done just this procedure, and have failed to locate Waltz's mine, but  who knows?  Maybe you will be the 'lucky' one, or perhaps the 'unlucky' one?  As I mentioned earlier, personally I would not rely on the Holmes manuscript for any good info on finding that lost mine - and for that matter the bits of info passed on to Julia and Reiney (those bits we are aware of today, doubtless there were other tidbits not known publicly) are hardly of much more help - for in this case we may have less doubts as to whether Waltz would have deliberately misled his friends, but the "clues" are vague enough to make them almost useless.  I think a treasure hunter is in a way 'hamstringing' himself by trying to stick to clues for the Lost  Dutchman Mine, as these clues have not been helpful to the hundreds of thousands of people who have searched for it. 

I too have been lured by the siren-song of "clues" to find the LDM, only to get a lot of exercise and great scenery but little in the way of gold out of the time,  efforts and expense.  If one looks at this in a different way, there is a different way to find the mine - and my money goes on this 'alternate' method as the way it will be found.  What 'alternate' way, a casual reader might well ask?  Good old prospecting techniques, the very way a great number of mines have been located over the centuries....however this is a most tedious and time-consuming task, and requires great patience and diligence to be successful. 

Good luck and good hunting to you friends, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

now can i reset the table ....?


are you amused yet...?

HI BB:  For your general information the Tayopa canyon complex produced Silver basically, the Paramo mines  gold.

There are 14 mines in the Tayopa complex, 4 in the Paramo.

The locked metal door is in the Tayopa complex.  This is what  we were looking for when my  associate  had his fatal heart attack last  week.

Don Jose de La Mancha

i only beleive the jesuits sent the list in the hope they could clam the treasure if it was found . it is not a jesuit treasure lol

i have no idea of what you found i know what i found ... untill i find the bells i wont know more then this is a templar site ...

BB:

i only beleive the jesuits sent the list in the hope they could clam the treasure if it was found . it is not a jesuit treasure lol
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wrong on Tayopa, it was/is  a Jesuit treasure site.   It  spans 150 years, two separate epochs, but I will not go into details here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

that treasure  tayopa list is in the tunnel i found , so i dont have any idea of whats in your wallet ! lol

 in 1959 a man saw the statue at the mouth of the tunnel i found and i know the statue is still there ...


the priest stone is templar and they are the only ones that could have put the templar treasure in the tunnel . if the tayopa list treasure that could only be from the temple mount .. it could no way be in the tayopa mine unless the tunnel i found is the real tayopa . or your list would not list the statue at the mouth of the tunnel as we know for a fact it is ...

we recoverd the tunnel site no one well find it on their own ...

i dont know what you have found . only time can tell but i know what i found ....and who put it there and when and why and where and what ...

so let me know when you make your find and i will let you know after expedition 3 what i have found ... i am not looking for a mine .....

i know where the LDM is .

i hope you find something even if its not the tayopa . i dont care what you call the tunnel i found its what is in it that means something ,.....

 

Sorry to hear about your associate Jose 

BB,
Who's to say it isn't Jesuit? Maybe they're hiding the treasure of the last supper, in Tayopa, which btw is in Mexico not Arizona...

i saw a statue of a templar holding a sword at the mouth of the tunnel . unless the jesuits had a templars statue . plus the so called peralta stones are not jesuit they are templar ! i can out right prove that ...

no i shined a flash light in the mouth of it i could only see about 30 ft in and the statue is about 20 back from the mouth of the cave , with no gun or back up lighting we would not risk it...

 thats why i am going on expedition 3 ...

the piont i am trying to make is this tunnel has nothing to do with the tayopa other then that tayopa treasure list ....on less the tayopa was made by the templar ...

 see my piont .. the stones match the tunnel site and the templars had taken a treasure from the temple mount that could very well match that list . no one ever figerd that out before till now .. this explans the stone tablets and the priest on them and what the tayopa list means . i have know idea what real de tayopa has found and out of respect i can only wait to see . but . i know out right what i have found and i am collecting evidence as i research the new data i keep finding more of the puzzle...




 look at it from my piont of veiw . the tayopa masscre acount matched the tunnle as much as the legend and the new evidence dose ...

real de tayopa has found something . but the treasure list and the other masscre acount fit the tunnel as well as the templar time line and the treasure of the list matches the teasure of the temple mount taken by the templar not  the jesuits . the site i found i out right beleive is a templar site

i am not trying to defind the tayopa . i was only relateing it to see if its legends fits the LDM legend and this tunnel site . the fact remains this tunnel site is the hideing place of the templar knights and the treasure of christ if i am riight ...


i have no idea if anything else well be found that relates to the tayopa in side the tunnel ..

but the gonzales& ruth map the stones and the dirrection fit the tunnel site 100% and now so dose the treasure list no matter how it got that way ...


look at this way so one went to one hell of a lot of work to hide this and as far as i could tell it was 1500 or older . now i know for a fact its 1307 or earler and its out right templar ....


there is only one templar treasure  that wears the names christ and mary ...i can only come to the conclusion from the evidence i see as of now .. this tunnel must be one of the 3 tayopa mines ,, how could the treasure match what should be in the temple mount treasure . there is only one logical way it could .... if the priest stone is real and at this piont i have evidence that pionts to the logical that it is real . then the tayopa mines could have been in a way bigger area then anyone knew ...


or someone made a few decoys  .. all know is they went to a lot to hide this tunnel ..


i say the treasure list was to hide the true details of the treasure . yet the fact remains the templar pirest is on the priest stone ...


all of the evidence pionts to one place ,,,  i can prove that is true of what i found .. i have no idea what real de tayopa found ... thats the best place to leave it till after expedition 3 unless i find more related data that helps subport my findings ...

but till know no one knew about the templars at all ...

 yet the stones dont lie ...


look at the horse stone , the templars had two riders on their horse . this one has none . yet the hourse is there ...


look at the math del . it is a up side down triangle just like the one on the heart stone .... i am not wrong! " they are not prealta stiones . they are in fact templar stones made from peices of the tablets found in the temple mount treasure , the priest on the stone wears a templar cross on his arm , jesuits did not wear the cross showing ...they wear all black or brown robes
 and they did not carrie swords  that i know of ...

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Tropical Tramp, as I mentioned in another thread, my condolences on the loss of your friend.  There is a bright side to his passing, however - at least he died doing something he loved.  (I presume he loved treasure hunting or he would not have been there by your side.)  So many people die without ever having known the reward of pursuing a dream.

Blindbowman - now you have a very different theory as to what you found from your earlier posts.  A few points (among many) are in order, for one, it seems very unlikely that the original Tayopa was found or worked by any Templars, since the discovery of Tayopa post-dates the destruction of the Templars organization by nearly two centuries.  Time-line problem with that possibility. 

Then there is the problem of proving that Templars were even aware that the American continents existed, much less had a fleet of treasure ships to send across the Atlantic.  As you well know, the period during which the Templars were operating is known as the "Dark Ages" or Medeival period - and most Europeans were not even aware that the world was a sphere.  Seafaring abilities were not on a par even with the late Romans, (excepting the Norse) and most sailing was done along coastlines within sight of shore.  This led to historians of today claiming that this coast-hugging was always the case prior to the late 1400s, which is false - but during the period you are claiming that the Templars sailed to America with the table settings of the Last Supper is not a time period when European navigation was skilled, nor ships being notably seaworthy.  Arab ships of the period were quite capable of reaching America however.

Then there is the problem of the Last Supper table setting.  Do you believe that Jesus and his followers, men and women who very much held money in disdain and were not wealthy by any means - would even OWN a gold cup among them?  Remember Jesus of Nazareth was a carpenter by trade, not some wealthy person or royalty.  "Render unto Caesar the things which are of Caesar,..." so the idea that a set of incredibly valuable gold and silver place settings would have been the utensils used at the famous Last Supper seems extremely unlikely and illogical.  I am rather surprised that you arrived at this conclusion.

Is it impossible that the Templars could have known of the Americas, and have sailed here?  Of course not - in fact there is a distinct possibility that something was in fact spirited away from Europe and possibly buried in the now-infamous site known as the Money Pit (Oak Island) by none other than Henry Sinclair, in or about 1321.  However it is quite another matter for a medeival European ship to have carried a cargo up the Salt river to the Superstitions.  For the Templars to have chosen that site to hide some treasure, they must have had knowledge of the place prior to that moment - so exactly how did the Templars gain knowledge of the Superstitions?

I wish you luck in pursuing your theories and in attempting to prove them, and look forward to reading the account of your adventures when you have completed your next expedition. I hope you will keep us posted, and as always - remember everything I have said here is just my own opinion - no offense was intended.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Tropical Tramp, as I mentioned in another thread, my condolences on the loss of your friend.  There is a bright side to his passing, however - at least he died doing something he loved.  (I presume he loved treasure hunting or he would not have been there by your side.)  So many people die without ever having known the reward of pursuing a dream.

Blindbowman - now you have a very different theory as to what you found from your earlier posts.  A few points (among many) are in order, for one, it seems very unlikely that the original Tayopa was found or worked by any Templars, since the discovery of Tayopa post-dates the destruction of the Templars organization by nearly two centuries.  Time-line problem with that possibility. 

Then there is the problem of proving that Templars were even aware that the American continents existed, much less had a fleet of treasure ships to send across the Atlantic.  As you well know, the period during which the Templars were operating is known as the "Dark Ages" or Medeival period - and most Europeans were not even aware that the world was a sphere.  Seafaring abilities were not on a par even with the late Romans, (excepting the Norse) and most sailing was done along coastlines within sight of shore.  This led to historians of today claiming that this coast-hugging was always the case prior to the late 1400s, which is false - but during the period you are claiming that the Templars sailed to America with the table settings of the Last Supper is not a time period when European navigation was skilled, nor ships being notably seaworthy.  Arab ships of the period were quite capable of reaching America however.

Then there is the problem of the Last Supper table setting.  Do you believe that Jesus and his followers, men and women who very much held money in disdain and were not wealthy by any means - would even OWN a gold cup among them?  Remember Jesus of Nazareth was a carpenter by trade, not some wealthy person or royalty.  "Render unto Caesar the things which are of Caesar,..." so the idea that a set of incredibly valuable gold and silver place settings would have been the utensils used at the famous Last Supper seems extremely unlikely and illogical.  I am rather surprised that you arrived at this conclusion.

Is it impossible that the Templars could have known of the Americas, and have sailed here?  Of course not - in fact there is a distinct possibility that something was in fact spirited away from Europe and possibly buried in the now-infamous site known as the Money Pit (Oak Island) by none other than Henry Sinclair, in or about 1321.  However it is quite another matter for a medeival European ship to have carried a cargo up the Salt river to the Superstitions.  For the Templars to have chosen that site to hide some treasure, they must have had knowledge of the place prior to that moment - so exactly how did the Templars gain knowledge of the Superstitions?

I wish you luck in pursuing your theories and in attempting to prove them, and look forward to reading the account of your adventures when you have completed your next expedition. I hope you will keep us posted, and as always - remember everything I have said here is just my own opinion - no offense was intended.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

"it seems very unlikely that the original Tayopa was found or worked by any Templars, since the discovery of Tayopa post-dates the destruction of the Templars organization by nearly two centuries.  Time-line problem with that possibility.  "

i agree 100% i do not beleive the templars had anything what so ever to do with the tayopa . the maps ,stones ,and dirrection have nothing to do with tayopa ..  let me explan .
the events take place in around 1307 . the templars send the treasure to the caost where it is put on ships to send away .. many of the templars were never killed they vanished .. i beleive they sent a few ships to oak island to miss leed everyone and then the main fleet went south to the Azores
 
"The Azores may have been known to the ancients and were included on a map in 1351 " i could beleive the templars did not leave any signs and if they did they were very few ...but if we are to beleive my thoeries to work we must also look at what little evidence oak land has given up .. the goat hair parchment with writeing . was it posable at the time the templars vanished ,, the answer is yes .. we can only judge this time line by those of the last crusade that date from between 1271 and 1348 the true dates are unknown ,, this would fit the time line of the templars vanishing act ....


if in 1519 geronimo de Agilar saw copper bells  they must have been contacted before that date ...

it may thoery that the templars knew just what they had and they secreted it to theis holly cave , how they found out about this location we never know , but i could guess the Aztec , knew about it in the time span...

we know the temple mount treasure was taken by the templar and we know they vanished ,,, they had to go somewhere . and here in the stones we see the simbolic end of the templar knights .. i think this is just why no one could under stand the clues . we were all trying to see how the jesuits and the fransicans fit the treasure . ,they dont .. how the tayopa becomes part of this site i do not know .. but the fact remains . this is the templar site . now if the tayopa list is listing part of the temple mount treasure then there is no dout they found some record of it some where ...but the jesuit came much later then the templar ...


and yes i do agree with you oro . if the templars were there frist then the rest is all here say and the jesuits had little if anything to do with this treasure in the tunnel ...it would be some real wild odds for this type of relegious treasure to show up in that area from two diffrent scores ,.. when the stones picture the templars ..i have to side with the logical . the date of when the treasure it self got there could be as late as 1500's but i beleive it got there way earler like 1305-1310....


"hen there is the problem of proving that Templars were even aware that the American continents existed, much less had a fleet of treasure ships to send across the Atlantic.  As you well know, the period during which the Templars were operating is known as the "Dark Ages" or Medeival period - and most Europeans were not even aware that the world was a sphere.
"
lol i agree if this was not the templars .. they had vast wealth , and wisdom and at one piont controlled almost all of the known europe at the time .

and if the stone dose in fact show a templar priest then we have evidence they did in fact reach this site .. this could even explan why there is lemited to no records of the actives of this site anywhere after they had been betrayed they wanted to vanish . i think we are looking at what happend to them ...but one thing is fact the templar where years ahead of any one else in math and construction ... there is just to little known about them , this is the only evidence i have herd of after they were stated to vanish from europe...


i think logic tells us if this is a templar site then it would have to be from those years ...
not those of the jesuits from 1592 to the later 1646 of the dateing of the treasure list ,, if we agree the treasure list is even real what do we have to judge it by . in this case we have the relationship between history of the tunnel location and the recorded events that evidence subports has happend in the area around this site ... much like that of the massacre site area ...

i can only ask how many other stone tablets have been found ...just the fact know one knows where they came from or where they were made . yet look at what i stated . if the stone tablets were very old and then broken over bigger tablets and made in to the stones . they could very well look fake a look like reproductions ...just in the way they were made by the templar ...


my piont is look at this stone tablet found at the temple mount .. if you dont beleive it looks very much like the priest stone tablet then , what can i say ?  ...

I have to admit......It does look like stone.

the templar would have made their own writeing and cut the stones to shape . but for color and type of stone i do beleive they are the same .. if you have not researched the temple mount tablets of tabots you will not know that there was a few type of stone used .. but as i stated if the peralta stones are from the temple mount that would no dout stand out in a test of where and what type of stone they are made of . yet as i stated it is almost imposable to defind where a stone came from with out a sample to match it to ... we now have a location to try to match the peralta stone to ...


this is my piont ...if the templar were trying to hide the fact the stones were from the temple mount they would have no markings of other languages on them ...

but this type of reuse of the tablets can maker them look faked but can not hide the fact they are still tablets from the temple mount area ...


even the idea that they were tested as fakes to see if they were fakes would make the later reuse apear as the stone could be fake when in fact they were nether fake or refakes ... they are just  tablets of a far older  time then the reuse was ..

and none of the stones are of any larger size then peice would most likely be made of tablets in full ...

if you look at the priest stone and the horse stone you can see the top edge looks to have been broke off and then refinished  where the bottom edges are much smother and do not look the same as the top edges ,, yet when you look at some of the sides of the stones some sides have the broke edges and some do not . thus we can see the peices placement with in the tablets they were broken from ...if this is the case and the templar made the heart stone yet the heart inner inserts were made by the templar they would must likely be diffrent all togather and they in fact do look diffrent ...


if this is the case what stones are the real peralta stones and what are remade or fakes would stand out very easy ...

for one , i was working with the templar code and they use that code on the stones . and if i was to guess the priest stone and the horse stone are the real tablets . not remade just reused tablet peice ...i think under a close magnafication you may see signs of older writeing faded away under the reused writeing , remember they were not looking for hebrew writeing from the days of the temple mount , they could have very well gone unnoticed ...

and if the stone tablets had shaper edges they could have rubed those edges off some to make the reuse of the stones not reflect their past frist use ....


this is what i see in the stones , stone speaks if you are willing to under stand its languages...

let me show you another stone found at the temple mount ...note in this case the stone is darker from age or water damge and this given stone has a board where the other did not


and note the two cross stones have the same pited face like the priest stone and the horse stone show ...that would make me guess the heart stone and inner inserts and the trail stone are remakes if not fakes or made at a later date then the others were ...

we can only guess as to how much variesion is in the type of stones tablets that were used  from the temple mount tablets .. and the conditions they were came in ...may also be reflected in the coditions they are in now ...



i can only guess that stone tablets were used far more often in the days of the tempple mount and here we find stone tablets .. logic reflects the path ...

HIO mi buddy BB: Interesting.  Incidentally why would the templars cross thousands of miles of nice hiding country to go to the Superstitions to hide something?  Just curious, since it defies basic logic. The longer travel invites the increased risk of discovery and possible attack, no?.

However, keep on with your theory, since no-one else has knowingly found anything so far using conventional data,  you may be the one, frankly, I sincerely hope that you do.

It would make two of us that defied conventional theories and data to succeed.

p.s. err how about a long term, no interest  loan for me when you succeed ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ladies, Gentlemen:  I thank you for your kind words on my  lost  associate.  I agree with your  Oro, those were my exact words also. 

it happened because he did not follow my  orders.  I told him specificlly not to go down into the canyon complex until I had arranged for a mule to bring him back up, he had had a previous heart problem.

So, Oro remember this when you are up at Tayopa, and you will be, follow orders!  (Your job Beth)  heheehh.

Same goes for you  Djuicy, I am the PIC!

Don Jose de La Mancha

i have been a recluse for many years and some of the time i have been here debeating the data is welcome even if it is confuseing at time chanceing these clues .. yes i would try to help others if i make this find ,,,to legal clam ...

 you can find a treasure but once a treasure hunter you are for life ...

let me show you another stone found at the temple mount ...note in this case the stone is darker from age or water damge and this given stone has a board where the other did not


and note the two cross stones have the same pited face like the priest stone and the horse stone show ...that would make me guess the heart stone and inner inserts and the trail stone are remakes if not fakes or made at a later date then the others were ...

we can only guess as to how much variesion is in the type of stones tablets that were used  from the temple mount tablets .. and the conditions they were came in ...may also be reflected in the coditions they are in now ...



i can only guess that stone tablets were used far more often in the days of the tempple mount and here we find stone tablets .. logic reflects the path ...

BB,
 
The Joash Tablet you show has been conclusively proven to be a modern forgery. The same teams of eminent people investigated both this tablet and the James Ossuary. The inscriptions on both are modern forgeries (the ossuary itself is authentic but from Syria, but the inscription is modern).

Best,

Mike

Randy,

"To insinuate they are similar is absurd". 

This is how pissing matches get started.  You see how easy it is?  Your statement approaches "ridicule".

I can see how bowman could honestly believe he is giving us all some important clues and evidence.  He is living in his own world and deserves to find some peace and comfort in there.

Joe Ribaudo

I seeeee.  So that's all you have to do.   Kind of like saying...."With all due respect", and then telling someone they're an idiot.

Joe

my piont was not if the josha stone was real or fake the piont ids there are so many fakes and greedy basterds out there i must have proff/ evidence ...! i dont want to missleed any with evidence i find or share , ...


if the josha stone was faked it can only tell the peralta stone could have been fakes as well the only diffrence at this piont that i can see is the stone and the legend fit the sites i found and if the priest stone is in fact showing the templar priest then the game is changeing dirrections from what has been the known path .. i for one will see this path to the end , no matter what out come . its better then where the legend has taken all of you ! IMHO ....


the legend has stalled . i out right confess i am a thinker and a seer and my gifts guide me in ways few under stand ... but thats the good part .. i need not explan the workings of the human mind . i need only uncover new clues and find new dirrections and define if those new paths of dirrection define where the legend s old path vanished to ... .

i well explan this theory to you so you are not confused . logic tells us there was once a path of this legend if it was fact . just like DNA at a crime location . that path of Dna  is a never ending path, the foot prints left by the killer are still being made by the killer days late or in this case years after ... but in time environments and weather take controll of how much evidence can still be recoverd .... and at so pionts of the path of evidence the trail has gone cold . thus we must find where the trail is hot . we my never find those parts of the path that vanished or are to faded to see or find for there lack of evidence at this piont , but if we can define a dirrection much as one dose by tracking blood trails in hunting deer . it is the same basics ...


the piont is i have found dirrection . is it the right dirrection . it has taken me to some real wild events and locations . i remember hanging up side down with my brother holding my feet so i could look in the tunnel opening ,... what  evidence is out there may be vanishing every day , we must define these paths and dirrection or the true path may never be found again ...

in many ways i have widen the research and search area well beyond the 10 mile mark ... the fact remains . in tracking a deer blood trail one holds true to his past dirrection and if the trail vanishes for a few yards he contenues onward till the trail is relocated . this is what i am doing .. it is what i am good at .. finding what can not be seen at frist sight ...



you can call that any thing you want . you can call me crazy if that makes you feel better .. but the fact remains IMHO i have picked up the trail and i am not still out there walking around saying to my self where the hell did the trail go ! ... even if i dont recover the treasure . it will not mean i cant go back to the last blood . and start again looking for the missing trail . . i always would take my arrows and mark the last blood and than mark the trail before the last blood and then start the hunt for new blood trail beyond the last blood marker ... i am a master of blood trails .... crazy or not lol ...

now if some of you under stand the theories of why i do what i do . then you must be able to under stand .. if the prealta stones were fake , and you tryed to place them in the blood trail , after you had gone some yards along the trail and came back to where those stones would fit , if they were fakes they would stand out as fakes  to the rest of the blood trail . their placement would not fit and they would look out of place on the true trail ...

i widen my research and refound many trails and the right trail become seen and the others vanish under research if the person defines eveything to a full observation ...


when the trail vanishes you widen the research area and then refocus if a trail is found .. you may find dozens of lost trails yet where do they go and after you defind a clear trail again dose the past clues relate and could they have vanished and be refound where you started the new trail you are on ... the piont is we may never defind what happend in the missing part of the trail or years . the fact is dont set around wondering ... relocate the trail and find the deer ..


i once walked 300 yards and found one drop of blood and then walked a nother 140 yards befor finding the deer down ...


you are all standing where the blood trail has vanished and are confused that the trails ican not be seen . i am on the trail up ahead and looking back wondering why your still standing there looking around ...


dont try to under stand everything i do i have done this all my life and i am very good at it .. even to the piont of gifted ...

as i hope i have pionted out why the fake stones are not of interest to the over all lost trail .. but as of now i can not rule ouyt the templars the fact remains . the templar stone could be just that . and not the priest stone . this is a very common out come when people mis lable evidence of clues in this case .. what was a templar tablet became a jesuit map or a prealta stone in all the confusion only missleeding everyone to go in a dirrection that vanishes a ways down the trail and never goes beyond that piont .


i like to remove all the lables and this dose confuse almost everyone that trys to under stand what i do .. but if i am to find dirrection i do not want to keep tracking miss labled evidence .. you can if you what .. but i would much rather not lable anything if it lets me define the path and the dirrection it has gone ...

dose it matter if i lable anything .no if i find the deer and recover it .. this is the reason you have a hard tiime under standing me . even words and spelling are lables to me . i am artistic with autiums tendences  i dont need lables to under stand dirrections . thats why i was a navagtor ...



if you see me as crazy thats ok if you can live with that . i can .. becuase i know the out come before it happens ...it is the savant in me that knows the path and the answer before most know the question...


 

I am a little confused, is this still all part of the BIG JOKE??       

djui5  See, I'm saying that it is my opinion, and like bumholes, we all have one and they all stink!

 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HIO Djuicy, not mine, I use soap and bathe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

BB:
 Just what is so complex on your thinking?  Isn't that just normal reasoning and deductive  ability?

I am lost as to why you assume that we cannot follow your line of thinking, it is relatively simple logic..

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose,

"I am lost as to why you assume that we cannot follow your line of thinking, it is relatively simple logic.."

You have stated the obvious here.  I believe the operative word is......"simple".

Joe

DJUI;  err,  ah, sheesh blushing, I certainly don't. Duh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

HIO Djuicy, not mine, I use soap and bathe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

How do you know I'm juicy?



 

He saw the picture of you wearing those Daisy Dukes with the word "JUICY" across the butt!

Mike

BLUSHING VIOLENTLY  sigh

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.  Hi mi busom buddy  Gollum.

BB:
 Just what is so complex on your thinking?  Isn't that just normal reasoning and deductive  ability?

I am lost as to why you assume that we cannot follow your line of thinking, it is relatively simple logic..

Don Jose de La Mancha

lol

if you are standing on the bottom step !

i have 10's of thousand of pages of data related to the sites ....simple ...OK

HI BB: I assumed that you had,  but your pattern of thnking and logic remains basically the same.

Don Jose de La Mancha