Treasure Trove Permits

BB,

"i have 10's of thousand of pages of data related to the sites ....simple ...OK"

Lucky you didn't loose them in the fire that took your 30,000 First Edition books.

Joe

its been fun ,  good by ...

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.  Write when you have proof. 

Gentlemen ?:

Small side note, most treasure stories are 99% confirmed BS, but that doesn't hinder my enjoyment of them nor most of the adventure novels.

As for the TV,  yech, I get the wrigglies everytime I see the so called pro holding a pistol sideways as if it showed superior competence, or see a 9mm blowing a guy backwards 12 ft and possibly out of a window  sheesh.  but I watch them with the necessary tolerance.

So it is with BB, while he may, or may not, be in accordance with my views or thinking,  I would rather see him posting his views in here than to just see a blank site on the LDM.

Who among you will now keep the LDM  thread going with proven accurate data &  theories?

Don Jose de La Mancha

I will certainly agree with you there, BB may have had some wild theories but I always enjoyed reading them no matter how bizarre I may have thought they were. For better worse he always managed to get people talking in this forum and isn't that a good thing?

Bill   

Jose,

I also agree with you.  BB is entertaining to say the least.  He does keep the conversation going.  Problem with that, is that a good deal of it is incredulous exclamations.  Unless he is completely brain-dead, he should expect that results from his, often historically correct, flights of fantasy.

What are we to think of his changing story?  I tune in to find out who his treasure belongs to....this week.  Gallons of Nitro, deep in the Superstitions, Moctazuma's Treasure, Tayopa,
The Templar's Treasure from six or seven hundred years ago......etc, etc.

Some of us are trying to discuss the LDM in this section of the Forum.  BB should get himself a good proofreader and publish a book.  Something along the lines of Indiana Jones/Harry Potter would be perfect.  Indiana Jones for the treasure side and Harry Potter for the Occult side of his personalities.

He should develop a thicker skin if he is going to float these stories to a knowledgeable audience.  They would be perfect for the uninformed masses....basically, a good read.

Joe Ribaudo

attacking me personially is wrong and the rules of this site states that clearly ...

i will post my findings may 1st of 2008 .. stay safe stay free



Ps ......if you all are so --deleted--ing smart why did you not figer out what ruth did ...
... thats two old men that out smarted all of you ...lol

not me .....

Bye.  See you next year.

Bye.  See you next year.

latter, good luck springfield

=the blindbowman ...

i will post my findings may 1st of 2008 .. stay safe stay free
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sheehs, I will be 151 by then  sniffff.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Ps ......if you all are so #@!$%#@!ing smart why did you not figer out what ruth did ...
... thats two old men that out smarted all of you ...lol     not me .....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nor me either since I have never read their data or notes.  If this keeps up I may JUST HAVE TO GO GET THE LDM TO SETTLE THNGS.    (sorry  CJ, Djui--.)

Don Jose de La Mancha














[/quote]

Bowman,

Here is the main problem, IMHO.

Many of us have read your posts on the Occult Forum, as well as the Pot Head's Forum.
Your deletions there, as well as the posts you deleted here, were not done fast enough to hide your true thought patterns and personally held beliefs.

Like many potheads, as well as ex-potheads who were heavy users over a long period, you believe no one has a clue......but you.  To those of us who have been working right next to you, for many years, the signs are bright and flashing.

You believe that if you delete your posts, no one will have a clue as to who you really are, the kind of person you are.  We all know!  Some of us are willing to call a spade a spade, while others have a more genteel spirit.

If you are going to reveal your lifestyle on public forums, you should expect "normal" folks to have a less than favorible opinion of you.  One of the offshoots of that, is a reluctance to believe anything you say. 

You say you don't care what anyone thinks of you (normal statement for drug users) but it seems obvious that you do care what we think.  That shows there is still a bit of hope for you.  Give up on the personal denial, grow a thicker skin and keep posting.  While many are giving you a bad time, they all read your posts.  I am very familiar with that kind of treatment.

Take care,

Joe

 what ever !

Bowman,

I assume someone told you the definition of "occult", which is why you changed your last post.  Perhaps they also informed you that dumb is not spelled d-u-m

I have not called you any names.  Your own words have named you "pothead" and your own constantly changing story and obvious untruths.....have also (self) labeled you.  Being a (self proclaimed) "witch"  has also placed you among the occult/fringe crowd.

Your problem, as I see it, is that you are not really angry at having a mirror held up to your past and probable current life style, but is strictly due to the fact that no one holds you in high esteem for it.

As to what I have or have not found.......I manage to live very well without having to lie or fabricate some kind of success that was destroyed in......whatever.

Why don't we just go back to talking about the LDM and the Superstition Mountains.  When you find the treasure, after removing all that Nitro', that will be the very best statement of how we were all clueless.  I will be the first to say I was mistaken. ;)

I have never spent a second worrying about you.

Take care,

Joe

do you think the dutchman shot the nephew and then smiled ?
was the dutchman a drunk  old desert rat ...?
 
its hard to hide 49 lbs of gold ,,, so where is this so called dutchman gold and who has it ...lol

i think the old rat died and had not a dime to his name and left julia hope and dick holmes  a path to hell .. smart old desert rat i guess

 so many thin skinned people on here, seems like if you are spending time out in the sun an weather people would have a tougher skin.
     I guess when you think you are the center of the universe you think ever thing is aimed at you.BF

Bowman,

The evidence that Dick Holmes took the Waltz gold, is pretty compelling.  Those who have researched the story throughly, know that Dick showed a substantial (for those days) increase in worth, shortly after Waltz's death.

Except for a few pieces of "jewelry" gold, the rest was sold to a local buyer.....just like everybody else's gold.

You assume that the Dick/Brownie Holmes "nephew" story is true.  It is as far fetched as the Dutchman being a "drunk".  Those type of stories are what kept the LDM hidden for so many years.  The story has been added to on a regular basis and changed one word at a time.  Those slight changes are being continued.....even as we speak.  No one really cares anymore.

As you know, it's not hard to find some horse bones miles away from where the nephew was supposed to be killed, and making the location fit the story.  Happens every day.  When you no longer care if your "facts" are accurate, the real truth is the first casualty.  "it makes no difference".  That may or may not be an exact quote.

Take care,

Joe

where picture of the dick holmes  skull with a chain around its neck i want to see that ,anyone got a true picture of it...

IMHO he never found it . and if the clues are true of where he was hunting , then i know danm well he never found it ...


lets set the facts of dick holmes in place .we know julia was lost from the start ....
 but IMHO her clues are as sound as the Boy's  ...

we dick holmes was there from the acounts of the dutchmans death ...
if we are to beleive dick holmes related the clues as we herd them from my insight the true clues are hiden in his acount . but crambled . even if dick holmes crambled them him self because he could not find the location yet did not want anyone else to find it ... ether way from my insight the clues are there to the location i found

IMHo the dutchman had try to defind where the tunnel had come from and knew the past of the tunnel and the pit...even if what he had found out was not the truth he could only defind what evidence was around at the time  he was researching the tunnel and mine ...

he refers to it as a chruch grant if we are to beleive that acount . but note he never says what chruch or by who ..so it could be indain or jesuit or fransican ,or yes even templar .. but as we know the templar did in fact invent loans & grants ...they were known as the frist bankers..

so lets say i was right and the templars could have put the treasure there. did they have the chance to put the treasure in the tunnel the out right fact is yes ,... they had the means and the ships and  the time line could prove it if the treasure is templar .  we can say the priest stone is  of a templar priest by his defind robes .. and sword .and even the the event being seen at ahand ...
 adding the fact a few templar math figers are seen that were used by the templars . IMHO the theory of the treasure tunnel being templar is not that far out there ....

note there was no clam in the studies of the stones of where they had came from . only a study if they were fakes and at that piont in time we had no idea of the location of where and how those stones became where they were found ..

any good researcher can tell you that before you can ID a sample you need a sample to compair it to ,... IMHO we now have a sample ...


imho if the leader of the templar told his knights to take the treasure as far away as they could and hide it so it would never be found , is this not the best place for that to take place ... it has not been found till now . and imho the stones were made but if the indains killed off the templar and put their bodys back in the caves like they later did the same to the spainish and jesuit IMHO . this would give us not only where the templars went but a way in wich the stones ended up on the trail out of the mts...

IMHO it is very similar turn of events , no matter if it was jesuit or templar knights or spainish running from the indains ..  but if the templar had gone into the indains secert place then this could have been the out come of those events ...as they were in the massacre site acount ...


IMHO we could be looking at a chain of events and not broken data . the templar , jesuit ,and spainish could have all been killed by the same conditions for the same reasons ..the frist for puting treasure in the secert place and they others for trying to take it out ...


not saying i am right about any of this .. but could this explan the turn of events .. and the answer is yes ...

look at one fact if these events took place all 3 , templar , jesuit and spainish would have been related to the tunnel and not the pit it self ...

if i am right there should have been other signs of a masscre of the templars  where the stones were found ...

i dont beleive anyone could have hiden the templar priest on the stones as fakes . this IMHO would make the stones templar and real ...

another clue is what was found with the stones ..we were told only the stones were found , how long did they lay in the desert and were they the only things found at the time ...? we may never know the truth of that event and in those days we may have hide aside a gold bar or templar sword our selfs  under the condition the man found them under ...

even his reactions to the find IMHO piont that there was something else found ,,...he went all the way home and waited years to report the find of some old stone tablets .. see my piont . if he had found something else of value would he have logically waited ,,, yes ...IMHO

in fact the location of where the stones were found could leed to more recoveries ...

much the way of the location of the other masscre  sites .

but the facts are as they are at this piont in time , we have a set of stone tablets , two of those stones show IMHO templar past. yet others have templar signs as well ...

we see a horse map with out two riders . the riders are gone , and the horse is without riders and free ...


is this another simbolic templar stone tablet , as the frist showing us the templar vanished here within the mts ...

was this the resting place  of the templars ...

did they know this when they hide the treasure there .. if that is the turn of events ...


if true the two stones are simbolic and show events that took place at or around the time of the events . we have a time line for the templar's vanishing act in 1307 , so we make a sound judgement if that date holds true the event had to take place just before those years , IMHO no more then 15 years before the events ....



 so lets look at the events IMHO that could have taken place , in a time line to each other ..

templar know the times are changeing and they are loseing the holly lands . they send the treasure as far away as they can and hide it , they had  ships and had a way to move the treasure . we find signs of them on the stone teblets ...and in their simbolic pictures on the stone tablets . we see the masscre sites as stages of the indains definding their secert place .. yet each group that enters the secert place is killed off in the same type of events . drive them away wait till they are over come by the mts roughness and then kill them off hide the bodies back in the tunnel and recover the tunnel ..


makeing sure those being droven away are as far from the site as they can get without getting away ...

iMHO this could event be sign as a indain tracking trait . run the game till it cant go any more and then go in for the kill ...

just my thoeries ...and we know the events of the massacre site acount were just in this order as my thoeries are ..

we see the same order to the events that took place in that acount , the indains got free and run the jesuits & spainish as far away as they could run and then killed them for what they had done to their secert place ...yet in the acount they do return the bodies to the tunnel ...

is this what happend at the site where the stone tablets were found . we dont know because no one wrote the acount of what took place in this event .. but it dose not stop me from makeing a sound judgement of what could have taken place from the other events that profile the people doing this type of events .. and we are given a clear picture of one of the events that take place ....

the indains did nothing wrong .IMHO they only did what we would do if it was our secert place ...

but is there a profile that is seen threw out these events IMHO YES!


not only is the sound reasoning but logic as well as some of the facts when put in these chain of events do fit the path of data and the time line ,even if we do not have all the story and history , we have more then we had before i started IMHO ...


am i right , we can only hope i am and the legend is true and the recovery fills the life of many and fills the holes in history with great treasures of a time long forgotten ...some times we over look what we do not beleive could take place .. yet the evidence well defind the truth . i can only wait and defind this path of reaserch and hope to prove what i see is fact  buy the evidence recoverd ...


we have a 116 years of what is evidence and where is the proff , and IMHO .. where is the treasure and where is the facts to the events .. i beleive the facts are here and they have been misunder stood and mis labled ... IMHO ...what was once  a beautfull stone tablet of the temple mount treasure became a templar map made in a time were their end was in sight and knights gave there lifes to give one of them the time to hide those stones ... i want to let them rest in peace...

what happend to these knights was wrong and IMHO they knew what was happening at the time of there massacre ....

they stood and held their ground tell the last knight's death ...


no one told their story . i want to . i will if i can prove it with evidence ...


IMHO the indains and templars ,jesuits and fransican are all victums of the times & history of mankind ,,..

these spirits need to be set free . they need mercy ... they need the truth to be found ...


IMHO the treasure is not what is valueable in this legend .....

i guess the talking is over you guys can draw your own conclutions ,, i got a lot of things to do these days .., 

No offense intended, but that story would make a great plot for a Clive Cussler book.... ;)

Zephyr,

I am a big fan of Cussler, and would have to agree with you.  That would be much better than my Indiana Jones/Harry Potter suggestion.

Joe Ribaudo

Seems I missed a great deal of discussion here, and there is too much to address in a single post.  I will try to be brief.

For a Templar treasure in the Superstitions theory to work, a great deal of evidence is going to be necessary to prove it up.  Were the Templars even aware that the Americas existed, a huge stumbling block of a question?

If we look at the time-line, we see that most of Europe was indeed un-aware of the Americas.  The Templars did have contact with the Pope in Rome, and the Pope had received tithes from a relatively secret land known to the Vikings as "Vinland".  Add in the fact that the last resorts of the Templars were in north Scotland and the islands north of the British isles, areas also well in contact with the Norse, and it is possible that the Templars did learn of the location of Vinland.  This would tend to support the theory of Templars under Henry Sinclair visiting Nova Scotia and burying something in Oak Island, far from the crowned heads of Europe and relatively safe from them.

A knowledge that there were lands on the other side of the Atlantic does not equate with intimate knowledge of what is today southern Arizona.  Intimate knowledge would have been required in order to know of such a secret place in the Superstitions, and it seems unlikely that the Templars, even knowing the Americas existed, even if they made a single visit to the continent, had enough knowledge of the geography to be able to utilize southern Arizona as the final hiding place for...some kind of great treasure. 

The fact that European explorers encountered Amerindians with copper bells, copper tools, or copper weapons is no proof of any prior contact with Templars or any other Old World culture - for many Amerindian cultures were mining and using copper, even smelting it.  So a report of seeing Amerindians with copper bells only proves that they had copper, not that they had a historic encounter with Templars or anyone else.

The stones found under the Temple Mount were inscribed in ancient Hebrew, which is very similar to ancient Phoenician and Punic.  Virtually all of the known Templar stone inscriptions are written in Latin, not Hebrew nor any other Semitic alphabet or language. BB has identified the "priest/witch" on the so-called Peralta stones as a Templar priest, which does not work for me - of the stone inscriptions and statues left by the Templars that I have seen, none resemble the "priest" on the Peralta stones. 

I do wish you luck in your quest, but would suggest that you follow your own advice friend Blindbowman - you mentioned that you remove all labels - well remove the labels you are using in the trail you are following out, and put all the pieces together first BEFORE you conclude that it had to be the Templars, or the Jesuits, or Franciscans, or Spaniards, or Peraltas, or Aztecs, or French, or of any other source until all the evidence is in and examined.  Perhaps it will prove to be the Templars, or perhaps it will prove to be something NO ONE has yet even thought of!  It might be helpful to compare evidence with other examples like Templars or Aztecs etc but until you have ALL of the pieces in hand, it is not helpful to try to make a theory fit with the evidence.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

Seems I missed a great deal of discussion here, and there is too much to address in a single post.  I will try to be brief.

For a Templar treasure in the Superstitions theory to work, a great deal of evidence is going to be necessary to prove it up.  Were the Templars even aware that the Americas existed, a huge stumbling block of a question?

If we look at the time-line, we see that most of Europe was indeed un-aware of the Americas.  The Templars did have contact with the Pope in Rome, and the Pope had received tithes from a relatively secret land known to the Vikings as "Vinland".  Add in the fact that the last resorts of the Templars were in north Scotland and the islands north of the British isles, areas also well in contact with the Norse, and it is possible that the Templars did learn of the location of Vinland.  This would tend to support the theory of Templars under Henry Sinclair visiting Nova Scotia and burying something in Oak Island, far from the crowned heads of Europe and relatively safe from them.

A knowledge that there were lands on the other side of the Atlantic does not equate with intimate knowledge of what is today southern Arizona.  Intimate knowledge would have been required in order to know of such a secret place in the Superstitions, and it seems unlikely that the Templars, even knowing the Americas existed, even if they made a single visit to the continent, had enough knowledge of the geography to be able to utilize southern Arizona as the final hiding place for...some kind of great treasure. 

The fact that European explorers encountered Amerindians with copper bells, copper tools, or copper weapons is no proof of any prior contact with Templars or any other Old World culture - for many Amerindian cultures were mining and using copper, even smelting it.  So a report of seeing Amerindians with copper bells only proves that they had copper, not that they had a historic encounter with Templars or anyone else.

The stones found under the Temple Mount were inscribed in ancient Hebrew, which is very similar to ancient Phoenician and Punic.  Virtually all of the known Templar stone inscriptions are written in Latin, not Hebrew nor any other Semitic alphabet or language. BB has identified the "priest/witch" on the so-called Peralta stones as a Templar priest, which does not work for me - of the stone inscriptions and statues left by the Templars that I have seen, none resemble the "priest" on the Peralta stones. 

I do wish you luck in your quest, but would suggest that you follow your own advice friend Blindbowman - you mentioned that you remove all labels - well remove the labels you are using in the trail you are following out, and put all the pieces together first BEFORE you conclude that it had to be the Templars, or the Jesuits, or Franciscans, or Spaniards, or Peraltas, or Aztecs, or French, or of any other source until all the evidence is in and examined.  Perhaps it will prove to be the Templars, or perhaps it will prove to be something NO ONE has yet even thought of!  It might be helpful to compare evidence with other examples like Templars or Aztecs etc but until you have ALL of the pieces in hand, it is not helpful to try to make a theory fit with the evidence.

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

that is out right not true , it only takes finding the templar treasure in the seven caves system to prove this , the fact remains the temple mount treasure vanished just before 1307  and has not been seen or had any clues as of yet ...to beleive the templars put a treasure here in the cave is no more unbeleiveable then tousands of people looking for the LDM here in the mts ...mislableing the prealta stone , misleeding and fakeing clues ...

there is no more evidence in the LDM case that is fact then there is of the templars puting the treasure of christ in this cave system . IMHO...

so i am no more nuts then the rest of you by that standerd ...

OH. don't put yourself down like that. You are definitely more nuts than the rest of us! In that, you can rest easy.

Best,

Mike

Blindbowman wrote:

that is out right not true , it only takes finding the templar treasure in the seven caves system to prove this , the fact remains the temple mount treasure vanished just before 1307  and has not been seen or had any clues as of yet ...to beleive the templars put a treasure here in the cave is no more unbeleiveable then tousands of people looking for the LDM here in the mts ...mislableing the prealta stone , misleeding and fakeing clues ...

there is no more evidence in the LDM case that is fact then there is of the templars puting the treasure of christ in this cave system . IMHO...

Hmm, you have taken a leap there my friend Blindbowman - for even if you did indeed find a lost Templar treasure in the Superstitions, this would NOT prove that the Templars put it there!  That would require proving up a chain of evidence from the Old World to the Superstitions. 

I have to disagree very earnestly on your point that there is no more evidence of Jacob Waltz's mine than of Templars - there is a great deal of verifiable proof that Waltz existed, came to America, applied for citizenship, won citizenship, filed mining claims in Arizona (not in the Supers however) even a petition to get the government to protect miners from Apache attacks, plus filing a homestead application etc.  You can also (with some effort!) find records of his shipments of gold ore (try Wells Fargo, and be nice, also Union Pacific railroad if you are interested) and even see a piece of the ore from his mine, which was in the museum at Goldfield the last I knew.  Can you find such evidence of Templars present in Arizona?  That is what you will need, to prove that the Templars came to Arizona and buried a treasure here.

I also am hesitant at your saying a "Temple Mount treasure" when all I could find in researching the activities of the Templars in Jerusalem was that they did find a skull, which was later used against them when they were accused of heresies.  Why do you refer to this treasure as a "Temple Mount treasure" when, even if it exists in Arizona, it could more likely be the accumulated treasures of the Templars, from their activities as protectors of pilgrims to the Holy Land and their banking activities,  without any need of some recovered treasure from the Temple Mount? 

BTW in my humble opinion, all treasure hunters are at least a little bit loonie, including myself!   

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy ~ Oroblanco

i agree it will be hard to prove but i beleive the evidence will be there ...if i am right about the last table setting and the tablets the prove is already there just no one saw it for what it is ...


and i do agree the templar had a vast teasure  collected and it may be there as well , we dont know what is in this treasure untill we look at it ...but if we can theory who put the treasure there can we not try to guess what could be in this treasure ...


who knows maybe the milkman put the treasure there ...

Bowman,

Why are you having to guess what is in the cave/pit?  Why don't you just take a "third eye" trip into the darkness and tell us what you see?  Did I miss something here???

Joe

i already have many times but no one wants to here the truth lol

Bowman,

"i already have many times but no one wants to here the truth lol"

Not true at all.  I have read the truth in your posts from the very first one.  I would think,
by now, that it should be obvious to everyone.

I do admire the way you keep, doggedly, playing your game.  Takes a special kind of person to keep up this kind of a clown act.....for so long.   All that's needed to complete the picture, is a jesters cap.

We know you have been to the Superstitions.....got that one signpost picture, but just how many trips did it take for you to find all that.....stuff?

Joe

Bowman,

"i already have many times but no one wants to here the truth lol"

Not true at all.  I have read the truth in your posts from the very first one.  I would think,
by now, that it should be obvious to everyone.

I do admire the way you keep, doggedly, playing your game.  Takes a special kind of person to keep up this kind of a clown act.....for so long.   All that's needed to complete the picture, is a jesters cap.

We know you have been to the Superstitions.....got that one signpost picture, but just how many trips did it take for you to find all that.....stuff?

Joe

Well Joe,

It depends on what kind of trip you are referring to!

As whacky as most of his assumptions are, I think there could very well be a hallucinogenic factor to them.

Best,

Mike

Mike,

Lot's of simple questions that bowman just can't find the answers to.

Joe

Mike,

Lot's of simple questions that bowman just can't find the answers to.

Joe

No Joe,

That's not true! He can find the answers to ALL those finnicky questions. He just invents an elaborate scenario involving some inappropriate people.

Mike

Mike,

I was referring to questions that are a little more basic, like..... How many times have you been in the Superstition Mountains?  No need to dream up an elaborate answer, just come up with a number.

Those kind of questions usually precipitate the donning of bowman's jestor's cap and the start of some kind of jig....hopping first on one foot and then the other.   No Shaman's dance, as one foot must always remain in contact with Mother Earth.

Sometimes I ask the questions, just to see him dance.  Sad commentary on the paucity of meaningful entertainment today.

Joe

I realize that Joe. He just doesn't actually need to set foot in the Supers! He saw The LDM from a plane in the 1970s! WOW! What great vision he must have to see such a small thing from altitude! Unless of couse it was his Third Eye Inner Vision.

Mike

Hello All

First! 

 I'm not hear to tell any one there right or wrong. just to add my "2 cents", if its worth that much..

 Mr Wood, Sir you have a Hard and Thankless job in dealing with the public. I have met and talked to several of the Forest Service People in Mesa in the past. " All fine people and willing to help the Small Miners and Treasure Hunters. AS LONG as they follow the rules and laws, and as lone as you respect them and the job they do, they will do the same for you. After all your doing a job  and you have to follow the laws yourself,s.
Dont wanna get to long winded on anything.  "SO"

 A QUOTE FROM SOMEONE HERE,  "Opinions are like bungholes, Everyone has one.
" Yep your right there and what i say here is (((MINE.)))

So Guys and Gals,

 This is about the Stone Maps. "Real or Fake"  Who made them, "I dont know and dont care" They ARE VERL REAL. They deal with more then one mining area, I think.....
 The Priest Map tells us "I go 18 places," 18  mines," I dont think so" 18 Mining Areas. "I think" 
teehee Right now Mr Wood is thinking. "OH God another Crazy"

I have found where they fit Two areas one in the Superstition Mountains. The trail map on two stones leads you to the areas of the Heart insert, and the Horse and PriestMaps.
The trail Map is read as any map would be A person can find and follow it anytime of the year. The Horse and Priest Maps are shadow Markers. only made to be seen 4 times a year durring March, june, september and december.  I have seen both of them. "Thank you Lord."

Enough for now.

bye all

Hi
I don't think Mr. Wood has visited this site in some time now, I might be wrong! 
Eugene

Thanks Eugene,

 I guess your right. He hasn't made a post in some time now.

Tracker 1

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Tracker1!  I believe our friend Scott Wood likely has now retired from the Forest Service and may not have time to spend here, so it may be a while before he can catch up with us again. 

I would suggest that you start a new thread based on your posts, put it under the Lost Dutchman forum and it will surely generate plenty of replies.  Thank you for posting the interesting info, I look forward to seeing more from you!   
your friend,
Oroblanco

  Hello Oroblanco
  Thank you for your kind words. I really was hoping to talk to Mr Wood about some of my finds.
Do you know who is taking his place as chief?

I'll be around for a while in hopes of talking to some of you and making new friends...

See you all soon .

 Tracker1

I may be mistaken, but I believe Mr. Wood's job position is as Tonto National Forest Archaeologist.  As far as whether he is retired or not, I can't answer, but I know a number of folks who frequent this forum stay in touch with him via phone and e-mail, so I suspect someone may be able to point you in a direction to contact him.

If I were going to do it, I'd just contact the Tonto National Forest Service and ask for his phone# or e-mail if he is still employed there.

Tracker 1,

Last time I talked to him, Scott was the Chief Archaeologist for Tonto National Forest.  He was also in charge of the Heritage Foundation.

If you are interested in finding out information about a treasure trove permit in the Tonto National Forest, Superstition Wilderness area, you could contact the USDA National  Forest Service, Tonto National Forest at 2324 E. McDowell Road in Phoenix at
(602) 225-5200 or the Mesa Ranger District #3 office at 5140 E. Ingram Street Mesa (480) 610-3300. Or e-mail them at  vipicard@fs.fed.us  They will give you the straight story.

Scott is a really good guy.  He is friendly, informative and always ready to help......if he can.  His phone is still being picked up by his answering machine, so I assume he is still working.  Haven't talked to him in quite a while.

Joe Ribaudo

 Cubfan64,

Thank you for the info.  Yes i know from Mr. Wood posts he is or was the Chief Archaeologist, That's why I would like to talk with him.

Tracker1


 Cactusjumper --- Joe Did you live in Apache Junction in the 1970's & 80's?

  In those years I had dealings with several of the Rangers of the Mesa District Office. All really good People and willing to help any way they could.

Any way thanks for the info....

Tracker1

Tracker 1,

My Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo was living in Apache Junction around that time.  I never lived there.

Scott Wood is still working for the Forestry.  He is in Kaibab for a regional meeting of the Heritage Foundation.  He will be back at his office Monday morning.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks Joe,

 Your uncle must be the one I was thinking of. Didn't remember his first name but the Last I couldn't forget. He did a little dutch hunting also but was running Horses all over the area for some one. Is he still around? I haven't been in AJ for some time and have lost contact with everyone i knew their.

Thanks for letting me know about Mr. Wood.

OH I have a questing for everyone. dose any of you know if the Spanish used fire to melt gold and silver out of rock?

Tracker1

Tracker 1,

Chuck did a lot of Dutch hunting, but never ran horses for anyone.

I believe the Spanish used fire, same as the Native Americans, to heat rock walls and ore,  to make them break up easier.  There are stories of them building big fires and throwing the ore into it.  The gold would melt out and down into the ashes.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Tracker 1,

Just to be clear, Scott Wood is hardly a "middle man".  He has many years experience on the job, and knows all of the old timers around the Superstitions.  Most of them consider him a good man, and friend.  He has heard it all, sometimes more than once.

If pip's website will handle your questions, by all means make that your primary source.  If you want a little more depth to your knowledge, give Scott a call.  Feel free to tell him I gave you his number.

It is:  602-255-5231 or, you can Email him at:  swood01@fs.fed.us

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Thanks Joe

 Maybe I have the wrong Ribaudo. I'm sure your right about the firring of rock it would make it softer to crush.

pip thanks for the link but that isn't what I was looking for right now.

tracker1

Cactusjumper-- Joe,

I just sent you some mail. hope you get it. when you read it you will see why I didn't post it here.

Tracker1

   DON Diego Peralta,
 
A highly educated man, and Deacon in the Catholic Church, Lived in what is now Peralta, New Mexico in 1750. A wife, daughter and three sons Manuel, Raul and Pedro.
"Could be he had something to do with the Making of the stone maps."
One of the Gonzales boys was playing with the Daughter and dropped a seed that took. when Don P found this out the boy ran for his life, sometime later  he come upon the mountain of Gold. Thinking this may clear him with the Don he returned home to tell the Don. He was right. Daddy Diego packed up and with Manuel, Pedro and a bunch of workers left with the Gonzales boy to this mountain of Gold.
After returning home Gonzales was given the daughters hand and some of the mines they discovered. All lived happily everafter with there new found wealth, and worked the mines for many years after.

Some of this is opinion some is fact. Its taken me many years to collect thin info and my next few posts.

Tracker1

 It is worth reading . Please keep posting .

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Tracker1!  Thank you for sharing, and please do continue! 
Oroblanco

truckinbutch and oroblanco thank you both for your kind words.
A little more follows...




 Many years before the Peralta's 14, 15, 1600 hundred's. Explorers brought back gold and silver treasures to Spain from the New World. Both raw and hand made items of gold and silver.
The King of Spain and the Catholic church got together and sent hundreds of army troops and priest's to the New World with orders to claim existing mines and search for new.

 Starting in South America and moving North they  took over all mines and collected all the treasure's they could fined killing thousands of Indians on the way. The treasure the Priests collected for the church was taken along many carts full. In "Mexico" (((Montezuma's World))), the Priest's collected just token treasures,  Montezuma  took thousands of his people loaded with treasure and moved north to what is now Arizona. The Priest killed the remaining Aztec's in Mexico before moving on north. Montezuma already knew of the Mountain of gold and had a dwelling there. When reaching there he buried his treasures.


 Spanish troops and Priests came by the thousands, taking over all the mines and making slaves of as many Indians they could. "Including Montezuma and his people."
The Priest berried the church treasure in several places. The Jesuit priest had already decided they would build there own empire . so for many years after the King and Vatican only token payments, the rest was berried for there own use.

 When the King realised he was not getting his fair share he sent troops to gather all the priest and send them back to Spain. some of the priests hid.But the ones sent back were all killed.
The remaining Priests continued working the mines for many years.

 When the Priests got word of the U.S, Cavalry coming thy buried all the mines.... Over the next few years the Cavalry rounded up the remaining Indians and Priests, sending them to San Carlos Reservation. The priests all died there, over the following years.

 Tracker1

Hi Tracker1,

Welcome to the discussions - Please understand that my intent is not to be a nay-sayer, but the difficulty with stories such as what you are recounting (and many others I've read and/or heard told) is coming up with historical proof.  Documents such as church records, private diaries, photographic evidence, authentic assay reports, etc... are the things that begin turning these stories into either potential realities or simply legends.

While some of the stories may very well have a real basis in fact, I'll hazard a guess that most if not all have been told, retold, rewritten and otherwise mutated to the point where finding the wheat in the chaff is the REAL chore which some folks spend a lifetime working on.

Just tracking down real historical information on the Lost Dutchman Mine and the many stories surrounding the legends is more than one life's work imho.  There are folks who have half their homes devoted to every document they can possibly find to try to nail down the facts and even they find themselves often overwhelmed trying to sort through it all.

Again, I don't mean to be a pessimist here, but you mentioned earlier that you have spent a great deal of time collecting both fact and forming opinion.  Without giving anything away, can you be more specific on which things are fact and what makes them fact, and which are your opinions?

This is a mighty interesting place to share those opinions and you'll find a number of extremely knowledgeable people so I hope you'll continue sharing!

Regards

Dear Tracker1;
Where to begin my reply, my friend??? Ok, I suppose that it's best to start at the beginning, as with all things:

" Many years before the Peralta's 14, 15, 1600 hundred's. Explorers brought back gold and silver treasures to Spain from the New World. Both raw and hand made items of gold and silver.
The King of Spain and the Catholic church got together and sent hundreds of army troops and priest's to the New World with orders to claim existing mines and search for new."

The plunder of New World treasures lasted for less than a generation, my friend. The very first Conquistadores brought home the riches, while the later ones had to actually work for their share of the New World riches, to  include plantations, mining, etc. The King of Spain and the Roman Catholic church neve got together on anything, at any time. The King of Spain REQUESTED that The Society of Jesus send missionaries to the New World to domesticate and convert the natives. The Vatican had nothing to do with either the request or the positive response from the Jesuits.

"Starting in South America and moving North they  took over all mines and collected all the treasure's they could fined killing thousands of Indians on the way. The treasure the Priests collected for the church was taken along many carts full. In "Mexico" (((Montezuma's World))), the Priest's collected just token treasures,  Montezuma  took thousands of his people loaded with treasure and moved north to what is now Arizona. The Priest killed the remaining Aztec's in Mexico before moving on north. Montezuma already knew of the Mountain of gold and had a dwelling there. When reaching there he buried his treasures."

The natives never mined minerals on a serious basis. The gold and silver artifacts which were plundered from the natives in fact came from placer deposits or exposed veins. Please bear in mind that the natives of the Americas were only advanced as far as the copper age, and natives further north were still in the grips of the stone age. This is why there exists so many flint arrowheads, my friend. :-) The natives that could work copper were more technologically advanced and this is plainly evidenced by their massive stone structures, however using copper tools in mining won't get a person very far,very fast. You can try this for yourself.  Take a copper chiesel and a copper hammer and go to the side of a granite wall, then start trying to tunnel a 3 foot square opening into it and attempt to tunnel in 10 feet. Take note of how long it takes. :-) Oh, and you won't need a stopwatch either. A calendar is more on the order. And this is why the Spanish colonists got rich from mining in the New World, my friend. They had mastered iron working and it takes iron tools to tunnel through the hardrock formations that gold and silver like to hide in. They simply were in the right place at the right time, with the right tools and technology at hand. And because of this they earned vast sums of money for their efforts.

There exists no documentation or historical evidence that the Aztec advanced North into Arizona. You could look at pre-columbian native Americans as socities with strict boundaries. The Aztec did not control the lands to the North, therefore they would not have ventured to the North, unless they had a substantial warparty and then there would have been a huge battle, of which there should exist phyiscal evidence. No evidence exists, therefore the theory that the Aztecs secreted thier treasures in Arizona is nothing more than a mere legend with a healthy dose of speculation thrown in.

" Spanish troops and Priests came by the thousands, taking over all the mines and making slaves of as many Indians they could. "Including Montezuma and his people."
The Priest berried the church treasure in several places. The Jesuit priest had already decided they would build there own empire . so for many years after the King and Vatican only token payments, the rest was berried for there own use."

Spanish troops may have been sent over by the thousands, but they surely did not send over 1000s of priests, my friend. At the height of the Spanish colonial period, there were an estimated 1,250 European priests residing in the New World, and this includes ALL of the New World, from the tip of Argentina all the way to thw coast of California. That is a lot of territory and very few priests to cover it. Converted native Americans made up the bulk of the priesthood in Latin America during the Spanish colonial period.

"When the King realised he was not getting his fair share he sent troops to gather all the priest and send them back to Spain. some of the priests hid.But the ones sent back were all killed.
The remaining Priests continued working the mines for many years."

You must be referring to the Jesuit expulsion of 1767, my friend. Yes, the Jeusits were sent back to Europe, but not a single Jesuit was executed. And also, every European Jesuit priest who had been sent to the New World colonies was accounted for at the time of their expulsion. To conclude, all European Jesuits priests were accounted for and all were returned to the Vatican States, unharmed. There does not exist a single account of a Jesuit priest ever working a mine in the New World, my friend.

"When the Priests got word of the U.S, Cavalry coming thy buried all the mines.... Over the next few years the Cavalry rounded up the remaining Indians and Priests, sending them to San Carlos Reservation. The priests all died there, over the following years."

First, a mine is just a hole and how does one bury a hole in the ground??? It would seem to me that the more a person dug, the larger the hole would grow, thus making the burial of the hole impossible. And, if someone filled a mine in, then there would undoubtedly be evidence of the diggings in the tailling piles. After all, the rock and soil which was removed from the mine shafts had to go SOMEWHERE! The miners didn't simply eat it. So where at the tailling piles? To have mined on the scale which you are implying, the mining operations would have needed to been substantial and if they were substantial then the tailling piles would also have been substantial, my friend. And if the priests all died in San Carlos, where is their burial record?
Your friend;
LAMAR

oroblanco

I'm sure your info is closer to being right then what i posted, i was trying not to take up to much time and space, the only thing i have to go by is a little i can remember. when i turned 70 i packed all my info in boxes and took it to Cali, i give it to my nephew. all i have left is a few pictures and maps.

I quit looking in the superstitions when it was closed to mining.

oh speaking of maps, have any of you ever lied out pictures of the stone map trail beside the dutchmans and the Julia thomas maps. check-it out some time.

tracker1

Lamar

Are you an Apache? if not you would have no idea of what happened to the last of the priest.
What is Montezumas Castle and where is it?

I don't see any proof of what your saying...

tracker1

Dear Tracker1;
No, I am not an Apache, my friend. I am an amateur researcher of the Roman Catholic faith, most particularly from the 3rd century until the end of the 16th century and I can state that the supposed activities of the Jesuits did not happen, my friend. There does not exist any record of Jesuit priests being executed or of them mining precious ores or of them disobeying superiors.  There is not only written documentation of the day to day happenings in the New World colonies, there are MOUNTAINS of documents pertaining to these happenings. The Spaniards and the Jesuits were all prolific writers and they wrote down literally EVERYTHING! This is an historical fact, my friend. The facts are so ever-presented and well documented that I've never been asked to prove my statements before, my friend. The records exist in many different archives in both the Old and New Worlds.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Lamar

I agree with you about the Spaniards and priest being very well educated and prolific writers. I never said they were not.

You say your research is from the 3rd to the end of the 16th century. And it also sounds like you are trying to tell me that all priest from day 1 were Lilly White, Mr Goodie Goodies...
There are and always have been good and bad people in every walk of life. "I cant believe you believe that..." My information was told to me by an Apache Indian that lived on San Carlos Reservation, He was in the know and would not lie if his life depended on it. He would never give up any information about mines or treasure sites, but he was a very good story teller. He also stated he had been sent to check out my brother and i because of the person we worked with in the mountains. we were told it would be best if we stated away from this person. needless to say we took his advice and went on our own. I wont give his name because he still has family on the reservation. sorry be he is the only one that could confirm what i said about the last 3 priests going to the reservation.

tracker1

Dear Tracker1;
I have no doubt that the person who told you the story was being completely honest, however whoever he heard the story from obviously fabricated it, or heard it from someone who did fabricate it. It works like this, my friend. First, you take the historical documents and compare them to the physical facts. For example:
"We established a mission in 1591 12 miles east of where the Gila and White rivers meet. 2 miles further East lies a small canyon."

So, you follow the directions and BAM! There are the mission ruins! So far, so good. Next, you can physically compare the layout of the mission to it's documented evidence. "Church is in the right place, check. Graveyard is exactly where it should be. Check. Houses are in the correct places. Check. Etc, etc."

After a while it's becomes fairly apparent that the written record is not lying, my friend and it also becomes apparent that the Jesuits had nothing to hide. OK, so now we come to alledged Jesuit mines. Where is that history written down at? It doesn't exist to the best of my knowledge, and trust me, I've searched many archives for them. So now we come to the legends, my friend, and chasing legends won't pay the water bill.

You stated that the Aztec managed to move all of their vast treasure trove from Mexico City to Arizona, if I read the above statement correctly. My natural question would be, how were they able to do this? How were the Aztecs able to traverse some 1,000 miles of hostile territory without a huge war party to guard them, without horses or burros to carry the treasure, and be able do all of this without leaving a trace fo their passing? Those questions are ultimately unanswerable because there does not exist a logical explanation of how they were able to achieve this feat. The fact is they didn't do that, unless they were somehow able to fly the treasure to the Superstition Mountains from deep within Mexico, my friend.

In reality, there is no question about WHERE the Aztec treasure lies, my friend. There is plenty of historical documentation that tells us EXACTLY where it's located at. I've seen and physically touched some of the actual archived documents which tells where the treasure lies and how it came to rest where it is now.  It's currently resting quite peacefully at the bottom of the lake which Mexico City sits upon. There were over one hundred Spaniards who watched in horror and disbelief as the Aztecs sent their nation's treasures to the bottom. And there it now rests undisturbed, unless someone managed to figure a way to fish it all up from the some 200 feet of volcanic silt that it now nestles snugly at the bottom of. :-) The question now is, HOW can it be recovered? As to date, no one has yet to come up with a workable solution.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[little chance]

Tracker 1,

The fact that your source was an Apache, does not mean everything he said was factual.  It could be that he believed every detail of the story that was passed along to him was true, but that does not guarantee that it was.

Geronimo was known to be a habitual liar.  As you said:  "There are and always have been good and bad people in every walk of life."  Few people would consider the Apache to be "Mr Goodie Goodies..."

The story you were told has little chance of being historically factual.  As someone who once believed in Jesuit Treasure, I researched both sides of the legends, for and against.  After a number of years, I came to the conclusion that the Jesuits had no treasures, such as have been described in legend.  At the same time, it's very unlikely that any of the stories of Jesuit mining for the Order, or their own inrichment are true.

I understand your belief, as well as your not accepting that it might all be untrue.  Hopefully you took the time to study Jesuit history, as well as Apache customs and history.  There are good accounts of the Jesuit expulsion written by Jesuits and non-Jesuits.

It's a hard dream to let go of........I know.

Take care,

Joe

ya know folks, i have never said what i post was true facts. never ask any of you to believe all or any part,and never even ask you to bother checking it out..
 i do know what i found. it will be made public sometime in the next couple years, the after forest service archaeologist check the sites i found. i know i will never get anything out of them because they are historical sites and you already know laws about that type of site. 

there were so many trade routes between mesoamerica and what is now arizona, that anything is possible..but lamar is correct on the document side of the storeys...there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake...
the Aztec gave the spanish enough gold to satisfy a nation, and all it did was inflame their greed...the aztecs were only savages
in the ethnocentric world of the spanish...by throwing the gold in the lake, they hoped the spanish would leave.

Dear pippinwhitepaws;
"..but lamar is correct on the document side of the storeys...there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake..."
Was there ever any doubt, my friend?
Your wisecracking friend;
LAMAR

not with me lamar

Dear Tracker1;
What did you find, my friend? I am curious to know exactly what you have recovered. Can you post photographs of the recovered items? Of course, if you wish, you can put those black bands over the eyes of any and all people in the photo(s) in order to protect their identity(s). Why must we wait for a couple of years? Why can't we be informed of your find right now? I am extremely curious and I would like to share the excitement of your discovery my friend and I am quite sure others are just as curious as myself.
Your waiting on the edge of my seat friend;
LAMAR

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM  ----5th-----------Viva  Tayopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Lamar,

"In reality, there is no question about WHERE the Aztec treasure lies, my friend. There is plenty of historical documentation that tells us EXACTLY where it's located at. I've seen and physically touched some of the actual archived documents which tells where the treasure lies and how it came to rest where it is now.  It's currently resting quite peacefully at the bottom of the lake which Mexico City sits upon. There were over one hundred Spaniards who watched in horror and disbelief as the Aztecs sent their nation's treasures to the bottom. And there it now rests undisturbed, unless someone managed to figure a way to fish it all up from the some 200 feet of volcanic silt that it now nestles snugly at the bottom of. :-) The question now is, HOW can it be recovered? As to date, no one has yet to come up with a workable solution."

Are the documents you speak of Spanish, or Aztec?

Thank you,

Joe

[Montezuma]

pip,

"there were witness' to the dumping of Montezuma and the most coveted items into the lake..."

Can you tell us the source of this story?

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

[their own agendas]

HOLA mi amigo Tracker1 (and everyone),

Tracker1 wrote

oroblanco

I'm sure your info is closer to being right then what i posted, i was trying not to take up to much time and space, the only thing i have to go by is a little i can remember. when i turned 70 i packed all my info in boxes and took it to Cali, i give it to my nephew. all i have left is a few pictures and maps.

I quit looking in the superstitions when it was closed to mining.

Well - I am not sure how good my info is, as I never found the Lost Dutchman mine so....?  Thank you for sharing what you can recall, it is a great story!  It seems many folks give little credence to the Indians versions of history, and rely only on the "Western" documented versions, be it Spanish, Church, or governmental archive.  This approach, of complete reliance upon only those "Western" documented resources, may not be the best.  After all, if these historical archives had the WHOLE story, the Lost Dutchman gold mine (and many other treasures) would have been found already! 
One factor that gets ignored by the researchers who rely on the Western archives is that the people who recorded those documents were not always writing down the full truth, the whole story, and they definitely were telling things only from their own point of view.  Those people had their own agendas - including the Spanish, the Jesuits, Franciscans, Mexicans and Americans.  Secrets were not always written down for the very good reason that they were secrets, and such things as lost gold mines and treasures are very important secrets.  To those people, the Indians were nothing but savage enemies - however the Indians also recorded history from their view, and passed on this history verbally.  Oral histories have proven to be surprisingly accurate (check out Serbian oral histories of their wars with the Turks for proven examples) so we ought not dismiss Indian stories out of hand, simply because they do not always agree with our Western written histories.

I can understand your reasons for giving up the search when the Wilderness Area was created, but they cannot legislate away mens dreams.  I believe that some day, someone will find it - and that with the right "deal" cut with the governmental authorities, the gold may yet come to light.  There are some who believe that gold mine was already found and mined out, yet there are reasons not to agree. 

If you can recall more details my friend Tracker1, I hope you will share them with us - and please do not take it personally if someone should disagree and point out that the story from the Apaches does not agree with a Spanish archive or Church documents.  The Apaches story should be examined on its own merit and investigated, you never know what may be found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek. 
your friend,
Oroblanco   

[their own agendas]

HOLA mi amigo Tracker1 (and everyone),

Tracker1 wrote

oroblanco

I'm sure your info is closer to being right then what i posted, i was trying not to take up to much time and space, the only thing i have to go by is a little i can remember. when i turned 70 i packed all my info in boxes and took it to Cali, i give it to my nephew. all i have left is a few pictures and maps.

I quit looking in the superstitions when it was closed to mining.

Well - I am not sure how good my info is, as I never found the Lost Dutchman mine so....?  Thank you for sharing what you can recall, it is a great story!  It seems many folks give little credence to the Indians versions of history, and rely only on the "Western" documented versions, be it Spanish, Church, or governmental archive.  This approach, of complete reliance upon only those "Western" documented resources, may not be the best.  After all, if these historical archives had the WHOLE story, the Lost Dutchman gold mine (and many other treasures) would have been found already! 
One factor that gets ignored by the researchers who rely on the Western archives is that the people who recorded those documents were not always writing down the full truth, the whole story, and they definitely were telling things only from their own point of view.  Those people had their own agendas - including the Spanish, the Jesuits, Franciscans, Mexicans and Americans.  Secrets were not always written down for the very good reason that they were secrets, and such things as lost gold mines and treasures are very important secrets.  To those people, the Indians were nothing but savage enemies - however the Indians also recorded history from their view, and passed on this history verbally.  Oral histories have proven to be surprisingly accurate (check out Serbian oral histories of their wars with the Turks for proven examples) so we ought not dismiss Indian stories out of hand, simply because they do not always agree with our Western written histories.

I can understand your reasons for giving up the search when the Wilderness Area was created, but they cannot legislate away mens dreams.  I believe that some day, someone will find it - and that with the right "deal" cut with the governmental authorities, the gold may yet come to light.  There are some who believe that gold mine was already found and mined out, yet there are reasons not to agree. 

If you can recall more details my friend Tracker1, I hope you will share them with us - and please do not take it personally if someone should disagree and point out that the story from the Apaches does not agree with a Spanish archive or Church documents.  The Apaches story should be examined on its own merit and investigated, you never know what may be found.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek. 
your friend,
Oroblanco   

Hello Oroblanco
Thank you, Tracker was just relating a Apache story he had heard years ago. Just shows how closed minded people can become and not realize they have.
Eugene   

Dear Eugene Martin;
I thought it best to present the actual historical facts on the subject, both written and physical. I never told Tracker1 or anyone else how they were to think or to believe, however I feel that before someone invests time, money and effort into a project they SHOULD have ALL of the facts at their disposal in order to make an enlightened and INFORMED decision, my friend. Wouldn't you agree?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Eugene Martin;
I thought it best to present the actual historical facts on the subject, both written and physical. I never told Tracker1 or anyone else how they were to think or to believe, however I feel that before someone invests time, money and effort into a project they SHOULD have ALL of the facts at their disposal in order to make an enlightened and INFORMED decision, my friend. Wouldn't you agree?
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear LAMAR
Thank you for the facts Sir, But just the facts has not found the mines and if the effort to find the mines is to succeed than we'll have to consider the facts and the stories from all sources  available to us.
Most of us has spent a lot of money and time to follow the stories and the trails, but this will not stop us from spending much more time and money to track these trails to the mines.
To you it might seem to be just a story, but to those of us who have lived the trials of these trails from these stories, we know the wheat and the carnal because of those trials of hard ship that bring us ever closer to seeing thru there eye's and understanding them and there world.
I'll take all information I can get and separate it with good old logic and life experiences.
Thank you.
Eugene   

Dear Eugene Martin;
Thank you kindly sir, and I would like to remind you that the fiction, myths, legends, suppositions, outright fabrications and tall tales have yet to find the mines either. 
Your friend with the facts in hand;
LAMAR

Dear Eugene Martin;
Thank you kindly sir, and I would like to remind you that the fiction, myths, legends, suppositions, outright fabrications and tall tales have yet to find the mines either. 
Your friend with the facts in hand;
LAMAR

Dear LAMAR
Thank you for the facts, but again, that is facts and your opinion. If you have never walked in another mans shoes, you'll never see thru his eye's. Sir, you seem to be a man of faith, and yet you seem to have so little of it for your fellow man.
Thanks again for the facts.
Eugene 

OOPS LAMAR mi amigo, Legends?  what about the legendary Tayopa mines?    They have been found through Legends and folklore as a basis.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Eugene Martin:
My friend, I posted the facts but not my opinion of them. The facts always speak for themselves and no amount of yarn spinning will be able to alter them in the slightest. It was as it was, my friend. And no, I do not typically walk in the shoes of others. My own fit me just fine, thank you very much for the offer.

This is why when you walk into a debate with the facts firmly in hand, you will win, not part of the time, or sometimes, but all of the time. Because the other side cannot argue with the facts. Well researched historical facts makes a person seem professional and dedicated, whereas a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand, my friend. One pecular aspect to historical facts are that they can be PROVEN. We can take the recorded information and compare it to the physical information and if they match, then it's all true, but if a significant difference is noted then it becomes false or unverified.

For example, Tracker1 basically stated that the Aztec loaded up all of their treasures and lit out for the north to secret everything in the Superstitions. Fine. Can anyone prove this theory with historical documentation or with physical evidence? if a person were to propose this theory to an archeologist, I am fairly certain the archie would have some rather specific questions to ask, such as:
How were the Aztec able to accomplish this feat without horses, burros or wagons at their disposal?
Why would the Aztec risk so much to hide something which to them had no intrinsic value? (Gold was not coveted by the Aztecs, only by the Spaniards)
How did they survive the almost constant attacks from hostiles as they verntured away from the home territories?
How did they find water in the arrid region to the north?
How did they eat?
If an Apache knew about this feat, then how does/did he know about it?
If this legend has been passed down orally from generation to generation, why has it not been written down, by eithe Apache historians or general historians?
Why do all of the documents from the Conquisadores tell a completely different story?
And on and on, ad nauseum, my friend.

If one presents a somewhat radical theory then one should be able to defend it. This is the very basis of scientific research, my friend. Will all new technological advances and breakthroughs, first a scientist, or a group of scientists, does the research, then after exploring all possibilities writes a paper on the findings which is distributed throughout the scientific world via journals, letters or through the media.

It then becomes attacked by other scientists and it's validity is questioned, and if the theory survives these attacks it then becomes valid. For example, when Fr. Georges Lemaître (a very highly regarded Jesuit priest, by the way) first proposed a theory on the formation of the Universe, it was attacked by virtually every other accredited scientist in the world, including the famous Albert Einstein. Incidentally, the current name of Fr.  Lemaître's theory was coined by an early detractor, the famed astronomer Fred Hoyle. Fr. Lemaître's theory was then confirmed by physical observations by Edwin Hubble and thus far, Fr. Lemaître's theory remains valid as is known as The Big Bang theory.

To conclude, when one proposes a theory, any theory, on an event or idea which is not within the realm of typically accepted historical written of physical facts, then the person proposing the theory should be ready to defend it. This is not a personal attack my friend, it's merely the only method we have at our disposal to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.
Your friend;
LAMAR

LAMAR
 Maybe you should teach your shoes where and how to walk! Sorry but all you win with me is MAYBE a 2 cent BOOBY PRIZE.

You ask before, for me to post proof of what I found. "I'm not stupid." If I did that, You and a couple thousand people like you would be out there blowing up  mountains just like some did in the past.

You also stated you are not interested in mines or treasures, your only doing historical research. "You may fool some with that statement." I feel sorry for the ones you do.

 You also state, your information is True and Historical Facts. you'll have to prove that to me.

Of-course we all know. hehehe, a Priest would (NEVER LIE) to Protect himself and or property.

You ask, If an Apache knew about this feat, then how does/did he know about it? Check your history AND your Historical Facts. Just so happens they lived in this area....

I ask you before, What i9s Montezuma's Castle? you couldn't answer me, "Have you checked it out yet?

Everything you have said so fare, is your opinion, as far as I can see. You Show NO proof!!!! Theory's are like Opinion's EVERYONE has ONE OR MORE....

Oh, one last thing, you keep calling me Friend, You don't know me and I don't know you.. We are NOT friends yet and probably NEVER will be, "(SO don't call me friend.""

TRACKER 1

[To change history]

Tracker 1,

Lamar has outlined the problem quite well, IMHO.  He attacks your facts, and others as well, and you/they turn it into something personal.  "X" is "X" and "Y" is "Y".  When someone comes along and claims they are both "Z", they need to explain why that is so.

For those who have studied the historical records of the Aztec, Jesuit and Apache, your stories create considerable doubt.  Unfortunately, your tales originate from treasure hunter's.  In most cases, their stories are easy to expose as fiction.  No one who believes in these stories will ever (almost) accept any evidence that is contrary to that belief.  I know, as I was once a believer.  It took a number of years of hard research, on both sides of the stories, to convince me it was pure fantasy.

Not long ago, bb was telling us the exact story that you are repeating now.  Because of his confrontational manner, which seems to be mirrored by yours, he was not given much respect.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  If you can't stand honest debate on the merits of your story/evidence, you will find the same walls blocking any attempts for a treasure trove permit, that bb did.

Don Jose's claims that he has found Tayopa have been convincing to many on this Forum.  To change history, he will need to convince the world.  While you may convince many people on a Treasure Forum, it will take solid proof to change history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

HI MI Amigo Lamar:    While I agree in essence, En garde for some of your points  heeheh.

A)  One peculiar aspect to historical facts are that they can be PROVEN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In broad general terms, perhaps, since many 'facts'  are based upon first person observance, and many do not have any available true written data to back them up, only suppositions of varied observers or interpretations of various writers, many of whom, even in the scientific circle's,  are not adverse to adding or subtracting a bit to further their belief or position.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

B)  a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Such as was commonly posted on Troy as being  just a pretty legend,  nothing more?   Or even Allantis?  (The Latter is still in the proving stages until we are capable of exploring it's site under 12,000 ft under water)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

C)  a person who repeats old Apache wives' tales is commonly dismissed out of hand,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Unfortunately true, but in light of ongoing developments, later proven correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

D)  How were the Aztec able to accomplish this feat without horses, burros or wagons at their disposal?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since they never developed the wheel, and horses came with the Spanish, how did they construct their magnificent works?   The same way, if they actually did move this treasure.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

E)  How did they eat? -- How did they survive the almost constant attacks from hostiles as they verntured away from the home territories
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not really not too relevent  Lamar, since this also  applies to their building up their empire originally. As for atacks,  what tribe would seriously consider attacking them,  since they would be a large army in any event.  They would be better armed, trained in combat,  disciplined, and most important, armed  with their reputation.  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F)  If this legend has been passed down orally from generation to generation, why has it not been written down, by eithe Apache historians or general historians?
Why do all of the documents from the Conquisadores tell a completely different story?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sheehs Lamar, who knows, it may well have been, but lost today.   As for the Conquistadors, Much of their data and records are incorrect.   What about the 7 Ciudades of Cibola? I will accept the Spanish data after the Jesuits had established missions and the Spanish court was well established in Mexico with multi copies of each transaction or expedition .

As has often been stated correctly  The victors write the history.   Today in Japan, the school children are taught that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in retaliation for the Atomic bombing at Hiroshima and Nagasaki
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

G)  If one presents a somewhat radical theory then one should be able to defend it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Defend yes, prove no, that comes with the development and time.  Crude examples, "How was the Universe started?"   Was the world created by GOD or a natural occurrence?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

H)  it's merely the only method we have at our disposal to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agreed my friend, but remember it works both ways.  Nothing that we know of or believe  today is absolutely correct, all, including dying, and Religious beliefs, are subject to change.

Don Jose DE La Manchu

Cactus  -  Joe, snifff:  You posted -->

'Don Jose's claims that he has found Tayopa have been convincing to many on this Forum.  To change history, he will need to convince the world.  While you may convince many people on a Treasure Forum, it will take solid proof to change history.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  Oh ye of little faith Joe,  sniff, get a shovel and come on down to do your part for history.  Next you will be requireing that  Moses, the seven commandments,  and the ressurection of JESUS,  must be proven.   You forget that I am  basically a Universal Saint, just ask ORO  the sheep lover.

ALL THINGS COME WITH TIME,   patience.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located.

Even now the archies are not 101% positively sure that they've found Troy or even if they have discovered only ONE Troy, as there may have been other Troys built in the vicinity of the older ones.  Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

And now to tackle the legend of Cibola, my friend. Cibola was an OLD legend before Columbus was even concieved, to give you an idea of the age of the legend of the 7 Fabulos Cities of Cibola and Quivara. The myth started around 1150 when the Moori invaded and conquered Merida, Spain. According to legend, seven Roman Catholic Bishops fled Merida for their lives and they took with them the fabulous wealth of the city. They then travelled to a land far to the East, across the Atlantic ocean,  where the Bishops then founded the twin cities of Quivara and Cibola. Eventually the tale reached such proportions that each Bishop established His own city and kingdom, built almost entirely from gold and precious gems.

The myth is wonderful in the broad strokes and it's only when one investigates further that the tale breaks down. First, Merida only had one Bishop and the particular Bishop who presided in Merida had passed away , AVM, almost two years before the Moors invaded and the Vatican had not gotten around to appointing a new one, therefore the city of Merida was without a Bishop when the Moors invaded.

Next, Merida did not have any riches to speak of, fabulous or otherwise, my friend. Most of the riches of Spain were housed in either Seville or Toledo, and Merida happened to be nothing more than a quiet country village, in fact it still is little more than a quiet country village. Next, there are over 100 variously recorded names for the 7 Bishops, yet oddly enough not a single one of those name exists in the Vatican archives.

In short, the lost cities of Cibola and Quivara make an excellent bedtime story for children, just as it did in the 10th century, however 6 year old children do not tend to ask a lot of questions, either.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Don Jose,

"Oh ye of little faith Joe"

I didn't say I have no faith in your claims......I do.  On the other hand, I am patiently waiting for you to change the history books.  That hasn't occurred to this date, that I know of.

Take care,

Joe

HOLA amigos,
I think some of us may have not noticed that the post was stories passed down by Apaches as best remembered by our friend, NOT a litany re-typed from a history book.  Oral legends of history can be (and often are) strikingly accurate.

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located. <snip> ...Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

While this response was directed to our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa, I also wish to respond - and must respectfully disagree.  Troy was dismissed as utter fiction for centuries, a tale made up by some poet named "Homer" to boost the tourism trade in Asia Minor.  I own some older history books that say this, and it seems our modern "revisionist" historians now try to say that Troy and the Trojan war were never in doubt, only the location was!  I suggest that you read some older history books for a very different view of Troy, say anything published prior to 1870.    
 
Oroblanco

Roy and everyone else,

You all should have learned a VERY long time ago, that Lamar was and always will be in the loving service of the Catholic Faith. Nobody can ever doubt his researching skills, and he ALWAYS maintains a courteous manner when dealing with those who do not share his beliefs. That's why even though we differ greatly in what we believe regarding Spanish and Jesuit Treasures (and now I guess Aztec as well), I always see him as a friend.

That said, even when shown photographs that dispute his beliefs, he steadfastly maintains that loyalty to church dogma and their official histories.

Lamar my friend,

You are mostly correct in your assessment of what happened to some of Moctezuma's Gold. When the Spanish were at first defeated and chased out of Tenochtitlan, they took with them, all the gold they could carry. Many of them were so weighed down by it, that when they fell off the causeways, they immediately sank to the bottom of the canals and drowned. Others were slowed so much by the weight, that the advancing Aztecs easily caught up with them, captured and executed them. The next part, I am not certain where I read it, but I believe that after their defeat of the Spanish, the Aztecs retrieved most of the gold the Spanish left.

For many this gold was their undoing.  Encumbered by the heavy metal and greed, one third of Cortés’ retreating force fell into the canals and drowned or were overtaken by the Aztecs and subsequently sacrificed.  Miguel Leon-Portilla describes, in the Aztecs own words, their efforts to recover the gold from the bodies of the drowned Spanish soldiers:  “…They recovered the gold ingots, the gold disks, the tubes of gold dust and the chalchihuite collars with their gold pendants.  They gathered up everything they could find and searched the waters of the canal with the greatest of care.

It is also highly doubtful that Moctezuma (actually Moctezuma II) was the one who sent the gold North. It was likely either Cuitláhuac (who succeeded Moctezuma after he died in 1520), or Moctezuma's Nephew Cuauhtémoc (who was the Aztec ruler when the Spanish returned and overran Tenochtitlan). Cuauhtemoc was the one whom the Spanish Treasurer (Aldrete) tortured (among many other nobles). Bernal Diaz wrote in his journals that they spent six weeks after the conquest of the Aztecs torturing people to find out where all the gold went. The reason they knew there was so much more gold than they found was because of what they had seen in 1519 when they were treated as guests, and were presented a large Calendar and two discs the size of wagon wheels (one of solid gold and the other of solid silver).

There was a calendar stone in gold, as big as the wheel of a cart, depicting the sun and its rays with many strange markings incised, and another wheel of highly polished silver depicting the moon.  There were sculptures in gold of ducks, dogs, pumas, monkeys.  There were ten magnificent and heavy gold collars, and gold necklaces inlaid with precious stones.  …A bow and arrows were made of gold with even the bowstring in gold.  The Spanish soldier’s guilt helmet, a little rustier than it used to be, was returned, filled with fine grains of gold.

Not long after the Spanish entered the Aztec city of Tenochtitlán through a series of political ventures and legal maneuverings the Spanish literally placed Montezuma under house arrest but managed to do so without jeopardizing their safety.  While housed in Tenochtitlán the Spanish discovered recent masonry and plasterwork concealing a room full of treasure.  Bernal Díaz del Castillo, one of Cortés’ men present at the time, described the incident in his journals some year later:

When it was opened Cortés and some of his Captains went in first, and they saw such a number of jewels and slabs and plates of gold and chalchihuites and other great riches, that they were carried away and did not know what to say about such wealth.  The news soon spread among all the other Captains and soldiers, and very secretly we went in to see it.  When I saw it I marveled, and as at that time I was a youth and had never seen such riches as those in my life before, I took it for certain that there could not be another such store of wealth in the whole world.

See,

There is ample evidence to suggest that Aztecs travelled to and spent time in Southern Utah area, as the Ute Indian Language is almost identical to Nahuatl (Uto-Aztecan is the name of the Ute Indian Language). Also, a large enough party of Aztecs (as the story supposes that the number was about 2000), would encounter no resistance from native American Indians whose various tribes numbered in the tens or hundreds (at best).

I know it's been a while since I posted, but as those of you who know me know: I like to keep things honest!

Best-Mike

....  See,

There is ample evidence to suggest that Aztecs travelled to and spent time in Southern Utah area, as the Ute Indian Language is almost identical to Nahuatl (Uto-Aztecan is the name of the Ute Indian Language). Also, a large enough party of Aztecs (as the story supposes that the number was about 2000), would encounter no resistance from native American Indians whose various tribes numbered in the tens or hundreds (at best).

I know it's been a while since I posted, but as those of you who know me know: I like to keep things honest!

Best-Mike

Nobody has questioned whether the Mexica were in possession of copius amounts of gold in all forms, or that they recovered a substantial amount of stolen gold from the causeway following the Noche Triste, or that they secreted most of what they had before the conquerors returned after Moctezuma's death, or that their original homeland, Chicomoztoc, was probably located somewhere in present North America. 

The allegation that they toted the loot from Tenochtichlan to Chicomoztoc, however, is pure speculation, with no references that I've found anywhere except on internet treasure forums, books based on barely circumstantial evidence and fuzzy logic, and of course a littany of pulp fiction treasure magazines.  I would dearly love to embrace the rumor myself, and believe me, I've tried.  Please provide the sources of 'ample evidence' I can read to substantiate these events.  I'd prefer contemporary journals from the Conquistadors and/or reliable early ethnologists' work from the 19th Century please, not treasure-hunting pap.

Hey Springfield,

Part of the association was in what you quoted of mine. There was a strong relationship between the Aztecs and the Ute Indians of Southern Utah. The similarities between Nahuatl and the Ute Indian Language (named Uto-Azteca).

There is more information, but much of it is privately held. While I say "Privately Held" (which sounds kind of ominous), I mean that the pictures of various glyphs and artifacts are the private property of the people who possess them, and they are not likely to be philanthropic. If you know where to look, the glyphs are there for all to see. They were not destroyed or defaced in any way. They are just not easily gotten to.

What I can share is a lead for you to look into. Research the name Gordon Smith with the topic of Ice Cave Mummies. While what you will find is not nearly the whole story, or the whole truth. The real story behind his finds is amazing. Even what information he shared with the man who wrote the article is enough to at least merit serious study. The only problem with going behind him is that his site is in a protected area, where they frown heavily on digging.

Best-Mike

[source]

Mike,
I agree there's a connection.  Sure, I've located carvings such as the ones shown below and others that have a distinct 'Mexican' appearance.  I also know people who, for decades, have claimed they have 'priviledged' information about the so-called Montezuma's Treasure in North America.  These claims have been rampant for generations.  Personally, it's my opinion that the connection has to do with the source of the Mexica's gold in North America, not a cache lugged up from Tenotchtichlan.  But that's another story.  My point is that the 'treasure' legend is strictly a speculative fantasy.  The 'privately held' caveat doesn't fly - just another campfire tale.

The Smith story, like the Kinkaid story, the Freddy Crystal story, the Brewer cave story, etc. is interesting for sure, but one of many that are  unsubstantiated.  The fact that the venue lies in a protected area is encouraging, however, for the reasons that many other promising sites are also 'protected', but that too is another story.  Bottom line: there's something to all this, but IMO it's time to lose the 'Montezuma's Treasure' rumor because there's no there there.  

HOLA amigos,
I think some of us may have not noticed that the post was stories passed down by Apaches as best remembered by our friend, NOT a litany re-typed from a history book.  Oral legends of history can be (and often are) strikingly accurate.

Lamar wrote

Dear Real de Tayopa;
One should never use Troy, or Ilium, as an example of a *legend* my friend. Troy was a REAL city, with a real population, a real king and a very real history. This has been proven time and again, not only by the vast amounts of surviving documentation but by the physical evidence as well, to include coinage, pottery, artworks, and other surviving pieces from the era. Taking this vast mountain of evidence into serious consideration, there was never any doubt that Troy exists, and the only question remained was WHERE was Troy located. <snip> ...Once more, that the city existed was never in doubt, only it's location.

While this response was directed to our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa, I also wish to respond - and must respectfully disagree.  Troy was dismissed as utter fiction for centuries, a tale made up by some poet named "Homer" to boost the tourism trade in Asia Minor.  I own some older history books that say this, and it seems our modern "revisionist" historians now try to say that Troy and the Trojan war were never in doubt, only the location was!  I suggest that you read some older history books for a very different view of Troy, say anything published prior to 1870.    
 
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
To further clarify my previous statement, the existence of the historical Hellenic Troy was never in doubt my friend, simply because of the vast amount of physical evidence which has always been known, however the legendary Troy, that is to state, the Troy of Paris, Hector, etc is probably nothing more than a creative tale. The epic battle, the opulent city, the wooden horse, etc, those events most likely never occurred, therefore the Troy of legend most likely never existed.

And so, from the pottery, coinage, artworks, etc the validity of a city/state known as Troy was never in doubt my friend. I seriously doubt that the excavation of the historical Troy will reveal a wooden horse, however it would not be the first time that I've been surprised, therefore we can do naught but wait and see how the excavations develop.
Your friend;
LAAMR

Lamar,

While the existence of Troy may have never been in doubt, Heinrich Schleimann received much grief for his belief that Homer's Odyssey was literally an historic event that could be proven by taking details from the book. Most Archaeologists placed Troy near the city of Pinarbarsi, while Schleimann (using ONLY descriptions from The Odyssey) began excavating near the town of Hissarlik. This turned out to be the correct location.

While we might argue all day about his ethics and personal life, his contributions to history are not in doubt (the two biggest are Troy and his discovery of the Mycenaean Civilization).

Don;'t be so quick to dismiss the possibility of the existence of the Troy of Homer. You may have to sit at the same table as all the "Professionals" that stated unequivocally that the Giant Squid "DID NOT EXIST!", the "Professionals" who stated unequivocally that Schleimann was crazy, and get served up a big slice of CROW! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

["treasure hunting pap"]

HOLA amigos,
I am aware that this post was directed to our mutual amigo Gollum, but I would like to add a point so I must beg your indulgence;

Springfield  wrote

The allegation that they toted the loot from Tenochtichlan to Chicomoztoc, however, is pure speculation, with no references that I've found anywhere except on internet treasure forums, books based on barely circumstantial evidence and fuzzy logic, and of course a littany of pulp fiction treasure magazines. I would dearly love to embrace the rumor myself, and believe me, I've tried. Please provide the sources of 'ample evidence' I can read to substantiate these events. I'd prefer contemporary journals from the Conquistadors and/or reliable early ethnologists' work from the 19th Century please, not treasure-hunting pap.

It strikes me "funny" to read the term "treasure hunting pap" when we are here discussing this subject in a Treasure Hunting forum, in particular a sub board with the title of "Treasure Legends".  One such source, cited by treasure authors repeatedly over the years is local Amerindian legends, specifically Pima and Papago stories of Montezuma's treasure being carried by a large force of Aztecs who hid it somewhere near "Montezuma's Head", along with stories of mass executions of the bearers, any Pimas or Papagos who were caught witnessing etc.  No one has ever substantiated any of these Amerindian stories beyond the evidence of some kind of massive Indios battle on top of a mesa, at least as far as I know.  On this admittedly THIN evidence, several articles were published and more than one search by treasure hunters - but we ought to remember that most (or all) legends tend to be founded on facts.  Some kind of incident occurred which resulted in it being memorialized in Pima (and Papago) legend to be re-told over the centuries.  We know that the Aztecs did something with their gold after the Noche Triste, and that it has never been found.  Is it SO far-fetched, that they may have decided to send it far away, out of the reach of the Conquistadors, where local Pima/Papago Indians saw an odd spectacle which they then "immortalized" in a legend?  The place "Montezuma's Head" was named that by local Indios, not European explorers (unlike "Montezuma's Castle" which was certainly not called that by Indios.)  Why should they have chosen that particular name? 

The linguistic similarities may well be not much of a clue - any more than American English and British English means anything other than a common heritage. 

Lamar wrote

And so, from the pottery, coinage, artworks, etc the validity of a city/state known as Troy was never in doubt my friend.

I still respectfully disagree on this point amigo, even in late Roman times the existence of Troy was in doubt.  Quote
During the Renaissance, scholars were uncertain as to the location of Troy, and by the eighteenth century many historians doubted that Troy had ever existed
unquote

"Homer wrote a romance, for nobody supposes that Troy and Agamemnon existed any more than the apples of the Hesperides. He had no intention to write history, but only to amuse us."

Blase Pascal Pensées (published 1660), part ix, §628.

After the Enlightenment the stories of Troy were devalued as fables by George Grote:
In Grote, A History of Greece, vol. I (1846), "Legendary Greece" prefaces "Historical Greece to the reign of Peisistratus", and begins the "historical" section with the traditional date of the first Olympiad, 776 BCE: "To confound together these disparate matters is, in my judgement, essentially unphilosophical. I describe the earlier times by themselves, as conceived by the faith and feeling of the first Greeks, and known only through their legends,—without presuming to measure how much or how little of historical matter these legends may contain" (Preface). The "Legend of Troy"—"this interesting fable"— fills his chapter xv.

This is just a couple of examples, I am not sure where you got the impression that the existence of Troy was never in doubt amigo, but it is mistaken.   

One other point, as far as I know, coins or at least coins as we think of them as coins, did not exist in the time of Troy, ~1200 BC - the first coins appeared around 600 BC in Lydia (Asia Minor) which is near but not directly associated with Troy and long after Troy had been destroyed.  **<I collect ancient coins, or I would likely have not known this tidbit.>**

My apologies for drifting off topic yet again.  Please do continue gentlemen.
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

["treasure hunting pap"]

....  It strikes me "funny" to read the term "treasure hunting pap" when we are here discussing this subject in a Treasure Hunting forum, in particular a sub board with the title of "Treasure Legends".  One such source, cited by treasure authors repeatedly over the years is local Amerindian legends, specifically Pima and Papago stories of Montezuma's treasure being carried by a large force of Aztecs who hid it somewhere near "Montezuma's Head" ....  Is it SO far-fetched, that they may have decided to send it far away, out of the reach of the Conquistadors, where local Pima/Papago Indians saw an odd spectacle which they then "immortalized" in a legend?  The place "Montezuma's Head" was named that by local Indios, not European explorers (unlike "Montezuma's Castle" which was certainly not called that by Indios.)  Why should they have chosen that particular name?  

Yes, Roy, this forum catagory is "Treasure Legends" and the Montezuma's-Treasure-in-North-America idea is not far-fetched at all, but as mentioned above, I just haven't seen anything but speculation to support it.   I know that if the same lie is told often enough that it becomes real to later recipients, but I for one am interested in trying to pursue whatever truth may lie within the legends.  Regarding the Pima/Papago stories - I've heard them too, and others, quoted in the TH rags.  However, I haven't seen an ethnologist's or anthropologist's report, or a source for one, from early (untainted) interviews with the Pimas or Papagos.  I'd love to, but I'm guessing this reference, like so many others, is merely a convenient phantom.  I remain open-minded, however.  As far as the source of the "Montezuma's Head" placename is concerned, well, Montezuma's name is associated with several places in the Southwest.  Named by whom, and for what reason?  Could be the local natives out of veneration (Northern New Mexico still supports a heavy Montezuma influence, particularly at Taos Pueblo), could be later Anglos for romantic effect, could be because that's where the loot is buried.  I'm forced to accept doors one and two at this time.    

Springfield and Oro,

I researched everything I could find and could find no REAL mention (other than interpreted glyphs) of how those stories came to be, and if they REALLY originated with either of those Nations. Funny how those stories are generally accepted as fact, and nobody thinks to ask the Tribes themselves.

I just went to both of their Tribal Nation Websites, and emailed their historians about those stories. I'll post the replies.

Best-Mike

Gracias Mike! 

HI Gollum  waiting

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. I hope that you noticed that I spelled your name correctly this time Mike, had to bite my tongue to do that, I hope that you are appreciative.

Just have a bit more to add, on Montezuma's Head - among Papagos it is also believed to be home of a god or powerful spirit.  <Extract >

*Iitoi Mo'o (Montezuma's Head) and 'Oks Daha (Old Woman Sitting), Pima County, Arizona. [NR 1994] This rock formation is sacred to the Tohono O'odham people. According to their tradition the rock outcrop is associated with the deity I'itio and his instructions to the people about living and surviving in the desert.

<From "Historic preservation : oversight hearing before the Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Lands of the Committee on Resources, House of Representatives, One Hundred Fourth Congress, second session, on H.R. 3031, a [sic] amend the act of October 15, 1966 (80 Stat. 915) as amended, establishing a program for the preservation of additional historic property through out the nation, and for other purposes; H.R. 563, to amend the National Historic Preservation Act to prohibit the inclusion of certain sites on the National Register of Historic Places, and for other purposes; H.R. 1179, to authorize appropriations for the preservation and restoration of historic buildings at historically black colleges and universities, March 20, 1996--Washington, DC" >


I have not had much luck contacting tribal historians, at least not with those I have tried.  There may be other leads on this one, as far as identifying the source(s) used by the treasure writers anyway.  This could take a while...
Oroblanco
 

great discussion

MR. JSCOTTWOOD Are you still with us?      Very Curious? Sincerely John V. Kemm

MR. JSCOTTWOOD Are you still with us?      Very Curious? Sincerely John V. Kemm

Our amigo Scott has not been active here since Sep 08, 2009, probably does not have time to spend with us.
Oroblanco

Although he has not been active he did leave his email and telephone number should anyone feel the need to contact him.

602 225-5231 and e-mail is swood01@fs.fed.us.

 

Scott Wood for the public record here is a copy proof of the letter i sent you on 8/26/09      SCOTT WOOD THIS IS URGENT AND VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!‏
 8/26/09
true spectrumTo swood@fs.fed.us
From: true spectrum (truespectrum@hotmail.com)
Sent: Wed 8/26/09 4:31 PM
To:  swood@fs.fed.us


Hotmail Active ViewIn Search Of... The Lost Dutchman Mine (Part 1 of 3)  Nimoy

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I Found The Lost Dutchman Using Google Earth.... I believe you might be able to help me get my story out..... http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/T...¤t=theheart.jpg Subject: LOST DUTCHMAN FOUND PERALTA MAPS SOLVED! [Incident:090713-000011] I have located the gold. John V. Kemm Albuquerque N.M. today is july 4 2009 the key is the heart the peralta map is close to dead on till you reach the heart then reverse the heart or spin it to the right and a little to the north, from a specific angle from weavers needle you can see the hearts center the upper left side is where the gold is this can be verified on google earth the only thing i ask for is to give me credit for the find and if there are profits made a 3 percent of the total for me and my family my name is John V. Kemm age 43 of albuquerque new mexico i encourage anyone to investigate this finding of mine the exact coordinates are 33°26'46.06"N 111°21'44.38"W 1847m (lattitude longitude and range) HERE IS A PICTURE FROM GOOGLE EARTH! http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?...3°26'46.06N 111°21'44.38W.kmz DOWNLOAD GOOGLE EARTH NOW TO VIEW THE ABOVE LINK http://earth.google.com/

Hello , I was A Cibola Student, in class of 83. I have made a major discovery, get my discovery out to the media? MY HOME PAGE- http://www.myspace.com/johnvkemm
MY SATELITE IMAGES- http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/Truespectrum/ MY FACE BOOK PAGE- http://www.facebook.com/people/John-V-Kemm/100000090925697 I Found The Lost Dutchman Using Google Earth.... I believe you might be able to help me get my story out..... Subject: LOST DUTCHMAN FOUND PERALTA MAPS SOLVED! [Incident:090713-000011] I have located the gold. John V. Kemm Albuquerque N.M. today is july 4 2009 the key is the heart the peralta map is close to dead on till you reach the heart then reverse the heart or spin it to the right and a little to the north, from a specific angle from weavers needle you can see the hearts center the upper left side is where the gold is this can be verified on google earth the only thing i ask for is to give me credit for the find and if there are profits made a 3 percent of the total for me and my family my name is John V. Kemm age 43 of albuquerque new mexico i encourage anyone to investigate this finding of mine the exact coordinates are 33°26'46.06"N 111°21'44.38"W 1847m (lattitude longitude and range) HERE IS A PICTURE FROM GOOGLE EARTH!http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=803112&filename=33°26'46.06N111°21'44.38W.kmz DOWNLOAD GOOGLE EARTH NOW TO VIEW THE ABOVE LINKhttp://earth.google.com/ "THE LOST DUTCHMAN IS ALSO CIBOLA THE LOST CITY OF GOLD AND THE PERALTA TREASURE." THE STORY OF PERALTAS- http://www.ghostradiox.com/qfg/legend_peralta.asp LATIN HEARTS- http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html IN SEARCH OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE- <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/r1W78gwkf_s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/r1W78gwkf_s</a> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME SINCERELY JOHN V. KEMM CLASS OF 1983


http://johnvkemm.crissangel.com/

http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/Truespectrum/

http://s936.photobucket.com/albums/ad208/T...CTINGPOINTS.jpg      (P.S. ATTN. SCOTT WOOD I want to have a film made documenting My process in My discovery, and/or secure formal recognition of the discovery with recognized historical, anthropological, archeological, or geological authorities/associations before making the film.) Can You HELP? My phone number is 5055049179 Call Or Write Thankyou Sincerely John V. Kemm........                          DO A GOOGLE SEARCH FOR JOHN V. KEMM