Spanish Dip Needles - Miner's Compass

Greetings,

Anyone ever used a Spanish Dip Needle, also called a "Miner's Compass"?  I have a few questions about them. Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

I too would be interested in learning about these tools...Art

Art, I know you have heard of these dip-needles too, as I understand it they were invented in the mid-1500s and used by the Spanish fairly frequently.  Check out this little article, which is what got me wondering about them:
http://www.abenteuer-venezuela.de/eng/Angel%20Falls%20Story%20eng.htm

Heck I wouldn't mind making a little trip down to Venezuela to find what they did, even if I had to use an instrument invented in the 1500s to locate it!  ;)

Oroblanco

I have read that before...I have read that they were used in Mexico and the Southern US by the spanish....I have been told that it has something to do with the iron in the area of the gold. I have only found one gold source by following the gold from the stream to its source and I did not notice any big iron deposits in the area. We know that placer gold is always found with Black Sand which has a lot of iron in it. I also have read that the KGC placed iron on top of stuff that they buried...I have always thought that they were going to use the dip needle to re-locate the treasure. Years ago I found a place to buy them but they were to expensive....Art

Hi Art! 

I found a place that sells them now, but they want $3000 for one!  (Yikes!  )  Seems like a lot for a strange type of compass, hope I can find one for less than that.  Here is the place that is selling them for $3000:
http://www.thortech.org/thortech/en/spanish.dip.needle4.html

That idea of iron + gold makes sense; in many of the places we have prospected over the years there were black sands which could be removed by a magnet (and hence likely iron).  It was true in a case where we found a very good gold placer in Alaska years ago north of Nome - the black sands were quite thick, and in assay it proved to be very high in iron; (I was hoping for it to be tin - you know one type of black sand is actually a tin ore, another is a type of tungsten - also worth $$$) so if it would help to locate thick lenses of black sands it would be helpful to ME.  Sure hate to come up with that much dough, will keep on looking for a less-expensive source.

Oroblanco

Oroblanco and Art. get a grip on yourselves. If you dowse at the right time and know the elementary rules associated with dowsing, just about anything will do. When TV first came out in the 60s I made an antenna with half inch gal water pipe and it worked fine.
Art, I have taught you more than you realise, just have patience.  Max

Dowser501 wrote

Oroblanco and Art. get a grip on yourselves.

  ;)  Well, okay, but you didn't say exactly where to grip! 

Seriously Max - I personally have never dowsed for placer gold, but believe in using every tool in the arsenal to assist me in finding and recovering gold and silver (and platinum for that matter  ;)) including but not limited to, metal detectors, ground-penetrating radar, sonar, magnetometers, maps, aeronautic charts etc and these Spanish dip-needles are just another tool, that seems like it would have its' uses, at least I would have use for it.  I don't know if I even could successfully locate placer gold by dowsing, it seems one would need plenty of practice to become proficient at this.  I can't even tell the difference in a "hit" over power lines versus a "hit" over water, so finding gold seems like pretty advanced work to a neophyte like me.  If anyone wants to say that I am using a "crutch" by resorting to so many tools, I won't mind - finding the gold makes it worth while.

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Here is a pic of one not a good pic though sorry.

   

Dang Bill, that looks like a really nice instrument,   heck I might be willing to pay good money for such a nice piece of equipment!  Thank you!  Now I am really curious about them! 

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hey Max...I am keeping a close eye on the space weather....I like to learn about how other tools work...I have tryed what they call Spanish Needles which take 2 people to work and they seemed to work but took to much time to use.
Now Roy..lets try a few things with you. Some of this I will be assuming so let me know if I am wrong....Take some masking tape and make a large X on the floor running in the cardinal directions. Put some gold or silver in the center of the X. Now walk toward the target along the masking tape. Did the rods close before, after or when your foot was on the target. The next thing to try is to walk a square pattern using the X as a guide about 3 feet from the target. What did the rods do? The next step is to see if you can discriminate the gold from the silver. Put the silver target in the center and more silver in your hand along with the rod handle. Now walk the square again and note where the rods cross...Now replace the target with some gold and walk the square with the silver in your hand. Did the rods stay open or did they close? There are two ways to do this experiment...You can think hard about the target or occupy your mind with thoughts of a movie or anything else...This experiment is to give you some information about Dowsing not to prove anything to anyone else...Art

Greetings,

Anyone ever used a Spanish Dip Needle, also called a "Miner's Compass"?  I have a few questions about them. Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

these are expensive. You are forgetting the mexican needles which are cheaper and can be made from old worn out silver and gold coins. The basic principle has them finding faults in the earth caused by veins and caverns. Sometimes veins lead to minerals and sometimes they don't. siegfried schlagrule

I have read that before...I have read that they were used in Mexico and the Southern US by the spanish....I have been told that it has something to do with the iron in the area of the gold. I have only found one gold source by following the gold from the stream to its source and I did not notice any big iron deposits in the area. We know that placer gold is always found with Black Sand which has a lot of iron in it. I also have read that the KGC placed iron on top of stuff that they buried...I have always thought that they were going to use the dip needle to re-locate the treasure. Years ago I found a place to buy them but they were to expensive....Art

they could have done that but it would be simpler to just use a good compass. The pirates used a jacob's rod and the ship's compass to find their buried chests. A large enough iron mass will deflect a hand held compass. This technique has been used to find a buried steam tractor in an 80 acre field among other things like dumps in ghost towns. siegfried schlagrule

Hey Max...I am keeping a close eye on the space weather....I like to learn about how other tools work...I have tryed what they call Spanish Needles which take 2 people to work and they seemed to work but took to much time to use.
Now Roy..lets try a few things with you. Some of this I will be assuming so let me know if I am wrong....Take some masking tape and make a large X on the floor running in the cardinal directions. Put some gold or silver in the center of the X. Now walk toward the target along the masking tape. Did the rods close before, after or when your foot was on the target. The next thing to try is to walk a square pattern using the X as a guide about 3 feet from the target. What did the rods do? The next step is to see if you can discriminate the gold from the silver. Put the silver target in the center and more silver in your hand along with the rod handle. Now walk the square again and note where the rods cross...Now replace the target with some gold and walk the square with the silver in your hand. Did the rods stay open or did they close? There are two ways to do this experiment...You can think hard about the target or occupy your mind with thoughts of a movie or anything else...This experiment is to give you some information about Dowsing not to prove anything to anyone else...Art

the terms spanish needles and mexican needles are used interchangeably. The only major difference is that the mexican needles seem to be hand made. My set was shipped from chicago about 1938 COD for $10. I have the original mailing tube with stamps. siegfried schlagrule

seems to me...this tool may just be a compass....with a modified center pivot.

oro, check out an '' aqua meter'',   earlier made by aqua survey and instrument company, cinncinatti ohio, now built and sold by another company i think....you can get them off ebay for 50-100 bucks or new for 4-5 hundred bucks, and they are precision built, not junk......google aqua meter you will get several hits.....here is a pic of the top of one, you can also veiw compass from the side...if you get one from ebay without directions let me know and i will see if i still have mine........gldhntr

http://www.kitefarm.com/compass_museum/aquameter.htm

Once again, folks are confusing "Spanish Dip Needle", "Spanish Needles", and "Magnetic Dip Needle". These are 3 distinctly different devices. Of the 3, the Magntic Dip Needle is the one that Really Works, and can be bought off eBay for $50. I own 2 of them. A modern proton mag is much much much more sensitive.

- Carl

The aqua meter looks like a good instrument. I like that you can use it by holding the strap and look downward at the top as you walk. They added needle dampening too.  The type as shown in the pic I posted are adjustable for both balance of the needle using the small wire weight on one side. They also have an adjustment for the bearing tension along with a needle locking device. Only a little different from a regular navigation compass.

 As Carl said these are old technology for sure. Not nearly as good as a pc linked mag. I have never used the type that have a chamber for precious metals so I dunno about em. Given the number of sucessful locations by the miners of the past you can see that they were able to use needles along with other knowledge to their advantage. Has anyone located areas they worked that had no deposits ? Just curious about that point but I haven't seen dry test holes along with their mines that had deposits. 

   There are some areas that I am using this on that are ancient seabed and shorelines. This is one darn thing that can be done during the winter when it's snow covered and frozen hard. There are some places where the old bed has not eroded away as it was protected by a solid cap. Some 3000 year old camps and fire pits can be found on the shoreline. The flints found in those sites by my Archeologist friend during studies for the government were so old that they didn't have any sharps left, all dulled by time and exposure he said. I don't disturb the sites myself I don't want any conflicts with the authorities.

 I have heard that the Spaniards could use their needles while mounted. I haven't tried that myself so I can't say but it would have to be an animal with a very steady gait. But that could be easier than keeping an eye on the needle and watching out for obstacles and snakes at the same time maybe.

  OB

Thanks friends for all the info!   I had never heard of a Mexican dip needle, will check that out, and Ebay too. 

OldBillinUT wrote:

This is one darn thing that can be done during the winter when it's snow covered and frozen hard.

Hi Bill and thanks for the info - just wanted to make a suggestion; if you have a place where you can mine gold in summer, and have plenty of brush to clear or lots of firewood, you can do it the way the Klondykers' did (and a few still do) that is to pile brush on the spot you wish to mine, burn it and rake off the ash - the fire will melt down a few inches of soil even in the high Arctic.  It is kind of fun too, having a sort of "bonfire" and gets rid of old brush at the same time.  Of course you will only get a relatively small amount of gravels to work from each fire, but if you are like me, that danged gold bug bites no matter what the season and this is one way you can indulge yourself.  People are usually pretty shocked to see you come up with fresh-mined gold in the middle of winter!  ;)

Art wrote:

Now Roy..lets try a few things with you. <snip>

That sounds like an interesting experiment my friend - I will try it!  I'll even post the results here, for what it is worth (heck the skeptics ought to get a laugh at the least!  ) but will try silver first - the gold is locked up and a pain in the neck to get at.  Thank you for the experiments to try!

Thanks again, looks like I have much more to do. 


Oroblanco

Hey Oroblanco...The experiments will tell me more than they will tell you. Use any thing that you want..Pennies work good as long as you have 2 or more items to compare  how the rods close....Nuts,bolts or brass washer also work...I have even dumped a box of green tic-tacs on a lawn to see how many I could locate....Remember...have fun....Art

Mike - you reminded me of those old "doghouse boilers" fellow prospectors used to have up in Alaska - they looked a bit like a dog-house and would fit on a Yukon sled, even four huskies could pull it over the steepest grade.  I don't know if they still even make such things, but I know of a couple of them that were still being used even though old; one guy uses it as a steam-heat furnace for his cabin, pretty neat really.  Back when they were still running the big dragline dredges (not so long ago) around Nome, they also used ordinary water pumped into the ground and it worked, but not nearly as fast. 

Anyone know what ever became of the big Bema dredge, used to work offshore of Nome, (submerged beach lines) but last I heard it was towed to Indonesia or someplace. 

Oroblanco

Art, in reference to your post #9 the whole of this thread is on the wrong track. With real time dowsing such an irregular event, all these different inventions are attempts to create dowsing conditions. If by some chance a product for dowsing was put on the market at a time when dowsing conditions prevailed,  the name of that product would for many years have a reputation that it did not deserve, and as dowsing conditions waned, so would the sales of these dowsing toys.

Sometime in the (hopefully) near future if dowsing conditions reappear, owners of these useless dowsing gadgets will again swear by them, ( too many to name) although a pair of coat hangers at that moment in time would also be working with the same proficiency.

There is only one item that  can be used in dowsing. Your brain.

Max

Hi Max.

If a person were proficient enough at dowsing to be able to locate rich gold placers, silver veins, etc then you are right, such a device as a Spanish dip-needle would be of no need; however in the case of those who are not THAT proficient at dowsing treasures, mineral veins, then a tool such as a magnetic dip-needle would be of great use. 

I personally don't have the proficiency in dowsing for treasures or mineral veins which would lead to a certain success, which is one reason why I use every tool available to me.  I for one, would have use for such an instrument as a Spanish dip-needle.

Max I have to ask, why would you choose not to use any additional tools that might be of service to you?  Just curious, if it is just a personal preference or your experience, that you prefer one method of locating treasures/mineral veins to the exclusion of others (such as dip-needles, etc) or another reason?  Thank you in advance.

Art wrote:

Now Roy..lets try a few things with you. Some of this I will be assuming so let me know if I am wrong....Take some masking tape and make a large X on the floor running in the cardinal directions. Put some gold or silver in the center of the X. Now walk toward the target along the masking tape. Did the rods close before, after or when your foot was on the target. The next thing to try is to walk a square pattern using the X as a guide about 3 feet from the target. What did the rods do? The next step is to see if you can discriminate the gold from the silver. Put the silver target in the center and more silver in your hand along with the rod handle. Now walk the square again and note where the rods cross...Now replace the target with some gold and walk the square with the silver in your hand. Did the rods stay open or did they close? There are two ways to do this experiment...You can think hard about the target or occupy your mind with thoughts of a movie or anything else...This experiment is to give you some information about Dowsing not to prove anything to anyone else...Art

OK Art I did some experimenting, using silver as I have a few silver coins handy including the dollar.  I first tried it indoors but we have water pipes and electrical wiring which seems to result in a "hit" almost anywhere inside, so went outdoors where I KNOW there are no water pipes or power lines.  I got a 'hit' about six feet from a half dollar, which is apparently a water hit at some depth (which is good news in a way) because the 'hit' remains in that site even if the coin is moved or not even there.  I got zero reaction from any of the coins, (the rods stayed pointing straight ahead, except if I went anywhere near that water 'hit' then they would point toward it) in fact the only 'hit' seems to be that spot where there is water at depth.  I guess that either I cannot dowse silver (will have to give gold a try some time) or it is a bad spot, or just not right somehow.  It was a fun experiment though! I will give it another try, using a group of silver coins (a jar full) next time, maybe I am just not 'sensitive' enough to pick up a single coin.

Oroblanco

Sorry that didn't work but if you had not tried you would never know. The only thing I can think of is to take three pennies and put one in each hand with the rod handles and step on the other penny or tape one penny to each rod tip and try it....Art

Orblanco, A damn good question.The reason I would not use anything else but dowsing rods when dowsing time is here is that have you tried to run water through a blocked pipe, or use a tack hammer for punching in a three inch nail? Sheer useless toys for the desperate.
The day I found I could dowse I sold my metal detector. Max

Dang, Art - I FORGOT to STEP on any of the coins.  I have to do it over.  I was going to try again anyway, it IS fun!

Max, thank you for the insight.  I don't know if I would go so far as to call metal detectors, magnetometers, etc "useless toys for the desperate" - in fact my greatest success in prospecting involved only the good old steel gold pan, and my metal detector has re-paid me several times over; I sure wouldn't call them "useless toys" for they are invaluable to ME.  As for the "desperate" part, well that is a question of degree!    "Gold Fever" is in-curable, only can "treat the symptoms"!    ;)  I have to ask my friend Real de Tayopa, what the correct term for "silver fever" is - (hee hee!) I know a guy CAN come down with BOTH "diseases"!!!  ;)

Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Oro, the reason why I sold my metal detector is that it was rubbish and if I had purchased a better one, it would not go down to Jesuit gold which is in the 9 foot depth range. I am referring to black boxes hooked up to dowsing rods.

Am doing a dig very soon and am taking along a Metal detector for that last foot or so.One of my syndicate has one.
As a full dowser I know more than most what rubbish is selling for big bickies on the market.If any would work when my dowsing rod is non operative, I would morgage everything I own to have one. I repeat again . THEY ARE ALL JUNK> I feel better after getting that off my chest. Sorry Art. regards Max

 

Max, nine feet,  boy that is going to be tough - I have dug my share of holes and when you get down that deep it is slow and tiring work, you can't even really toss the dirt out of the hole and end up putting it in buckets to haul out.  Sure wish they made a detector that would go THAT deep though!  Maybe some day, who knows?

Oroblanco

quote from above '''''Once again, folks are confusing "Spanish Dip Needle", "Spanish Needles", and "Magnetic Dip Needle". These are 3 distinctly different devices. Of the 3, the Magntic Dip Needle is the one that Really Works, and can be bought off eBay for $50. I own 2 of them. A modern proton mag is much much much more sensitive.

- Carl'''''''''.............not confused carl, just posting info on here that actually would have a little value.......for far less than 3 thousand dollars...i use the aqua meter often as a way to search for known iron boxes/pots/buried metal/etc and be rather unnoticed while doing so...and to the poster that stated its all dowsing you are wrong...magnetics being the keyword.........g

..not confused carl, just posting info on here that actually would have a little value.......

"Of the 3, the Magnetic Dip Needle is the one that Really Works, and can be bought off eBay for $50."

The first info of value, is knowing the correct name for the device, so that it can be properly researched. The second info of value, is knowing where to buy it, and the expected price.

Up for any testing?

- Carl

The first info of value, is knowing the correct name for the device, so that it can be properly researched. The second info of value, is knowing where to buy it, and the expected price.

Hey Carl...The first information of value is if it works or not. This information can only come from people who have used the product. Treasure hunters are the ones that use the products and know a lot more than researchers....Art

OK, since the actual name of the device Oroblanco was interested in seems to be irrelevant, instead of calling it a "magnetic dip needle," let's call it a "radiodynamometer." I'm calling it a "radiodynamometer" simply because I make the rules, and this is what I want to call it.

Now Oroblanco can research "radiodynamometer" and see how it might be used to locate magnetic anomalies, and he can look around for places to buy a "radiodynamometer." When this turns out to be a dead end, then he can consider using the real name of the device, and perhaps make some progress in finding the information he wanted in the first place.

And the real name of the device is "bortavflartdurster." Because I said so.

- Carl

OK, since the actual name of the device Oroblanco was interested in seems to be irrelevant, instead of calling it a "magnetic dip needle," let's call it a "radiodynamometer." I'm calling it a "radiodynamometer" simply because I make the rules, and this is what I want to call it.

No Carl..The history books calls it a Spanish Dip Needle..Any one who knows anything about magnets will understand how it works. A Radiodynamometer is a simple jar with a alum disk hanging from a thin strand of rubber. The Spanish Dip Needle was used to find Gold. The Radiodynamometer was used to measure the emisions from objects....You can call these things anything that you want but that will not change the facts...They work....Art

No Carl..The history books calls it a Spanish Dip Needle..Any one who knows anything about magnets will understand how it works....You can call these things anything that you want but that will not change the facts...They work....

Here is a picture of a Spanish Dip Needle:



This is NOT the same thing as a magnetic dip needle. They are entirely different devices. And, no, the Spanish didn't really use Spanish Dip Needles to locate all their gold mines. The SDN was a late 19th century scam targeted at gold rushers. I can just imagine... "Finds gold 1/2 mile away! Get rich! Only $99!"

I know that some folks on this forum have a propensity for using incorrect names -- like radiodynamometer, Dr. Getz, and Dr. Doppler -- but I'm not one of them.

- Carl

Gee Carl...I have some photos to....One is a Radiodynamometer that you keep telling me is a Versorium..

Sorry Oroblanco, Mike, Max, OldBillinUT, arkhunter, SS and gldhntr....If Carl wants to argue with me he can start his own Thread...Art

Man you guys had me going there with these pics LOL

Patented roasting sticks for the super ballpark 2 1/2 lb frankfurter

A Irish wishing jar

A local bar science demo that captures the spin demons from a sweater worn by a damsel ?

 
I think I may be coming down with cabinus fevoris maximus

[flying]

Wow - didn't mean to stir up the sh-e-e-tstorm, my apologies!  I was just curious about this old device, and have learned a good deal from your replies.  I guess I ought to explain WHY I was curious about them to begin with.

Mrs Oro and I have a placer mine that is nearly all high-bank, tertiary channel that is capped with volcanic lava "dome" of very hard rock.  The old-timers who worked this mine tunneled under the lava dome, hunting for pockets in the ancient riverbed and we did the same - some of the pockets, which lay atop a white clay "false bedrock" paid off very well.  In every such pocket, we found a thick "lense" of black sands that held a good deal of placer gold.  The lava dome is between ten to thirty feet thick on top of the ancient river bed, and flat enough to walk on - if a device like the Spanish dip-needle or magnetic dip needle etc were able to pin-point the location of the "lenses" of black sands, we could then direct our efforts in tunneling to those lenses, instead of "blind" digging and trusting to luck.  We tried using a metal detector, but the detector can only "detect" a lense when it is less than one foot in from the surface, and the pockets are just too dis-continuous for that particular method to be of much benefit.

Then I found that article online about Jimmy Angel and his partner using a Spanish dip-needle that was able to detect a gold location on top of a mountain while flying over it, and thought, boy if it could pick up the iron-bearing sands from a plane, it would surely work through a couple dozen feet of rock and caliche.  But when I saw one for sale for $3000, I decided I would tap into the wealth of knowledge and experience available here on T-net among the members, so started this thread. 

So from what I have learned here, it looks like it would be worth buying one of the $50 models to take along the net time we head for our mine.  If it did not work through the lava dome, at least I would only be out $50, instead of the $3000!    Thank you all for the replies and information, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Oro what you are doing makes sense to me for the same reason on the same kind of formation. Want to compare notes after we do the walkovers ?
 
 It's going to be exciting to get out on that cap and check it out. Too bad we don't have eyes like a fish eh ?

The device pictured in the "Jimmy Angel" article is definitely a magnetic dip needle. The writer of the article is incorrect in calling it a Spanish dip needle. Anyway, yes, it might be useful for what you want, though I expect a black sand deposit at 30 feet deep would have to be rather larger for this method. Four Darley MDNs recently sold on eBay for $24-$38, so it's dirt cheap to try.

If you want to get serious, then invest in a good proton mag, or hire someone to do a mag survey of the property. Shouldn't be terribly expensive. Heck, you can build a proton mag for $100.

- Carl

there seemed to be the implication that i was confused which i am not...i posted about the aqua meter as i thought it would be a much cheaper alternative to be used for locating buried metals, not because i thought it was spanish, chinese, or anything else...... it works on the magnetic principal and i have posted such...anyone wanting more info on it can read it  here, from a history on the unit......anyone wanting to argue about it might as well argue with their self....as for testing carl, no, but i would suggest you hold on to my  $ 25000.00 as i will come for it one day...........todd

    The old adage about necessity being the mother of invention is exemplified by the invention story for the Aqua Locator. Its chief inventor, Othmar W. Pies (William H. Middendorf and Carl F. Everet, Jr. were co-inventors), worked for years in public utilities serving the City of Cincinnati. Mr. Pies' duties included locating and maintaining water lines and meters. Accurate maps of underground utilities often were not created, were not maintained, or became useless because surface features changed. 
 
Mr. Pies tired of using trial and error to find underground utilities; existing devices and methods were unreliable and cumbersome. He understood the magnetic principles at work in a standard compass, and the location technology of the day – "dipping needles." Dipping needles customarily were used to locate underground objects, but suffered from a number of practical deficiencies.
 
For example, dipping needles were prone to "needle spin," meaning that merely moving the device from place to place caused the pointing needle to rock back and forth rapidly. In addition, dipping needles suffered from an inherent ergonomic flaw: the needle face had a vertical orientation: the face was perpendicular to the ground, and the user could not comfortably view the needle's position while standing or walking.
 
The Aqua Locator inventors utilized existing technologies, but eliminated their primary shortcomings. The heart of the Aqua Locator is a functional compass, but with many refinements to facilitate the device's intended use. Needle spin was essentially eliminated using proprietary damping methods. The Aqua Locator employs mirrors to provide a horizontal reading face for the user. Further, the Aqua Locator includes a carrying case and strap, which permit the user to take readings comfortably while standing or walking.
 
 
Click to Enlarge
Mr. Pies filed a patent application for the Aqua Locator on October 18, 1954, and Patent No. 2,775,736 was granted on December 25, 1956. The patent was assigned to a partnership (Aqua Survey & Instrument Company), and production of the Aqua Locator began in Cincinnati.

From its inception, the Aqua Locator assembly process required hand craftsmanship and meticulous attention to detail, including precise calibration of every unit for its intended geographical destination before shipping. That old-world approach to craftsmanship, including most of the original tooling created for the Aqua Locator, continues to the present day even though ownership has changed and production facilities are now located in Cedarville, Ohio. 
 
The Aqua Locator requires little training to operate, uses no software (ergo no bugs, viruses, or upgrades), and does not require batteries. It operates in all temperatures, and comes with its own carrying case. In the era of ubiquitous electronics, the Aqua Locator's ingenuity and intelligent design still stand apart.
 

Mrs Oro and I have a placer mine that is nearly all high-bank, tertiary channel that is capped with volcanic lava "dome" of very hard rock. The old-timers who worked this mine tunneled under the lava dome, hunting for pockets in the ancient riverbed and we did the same - some of the pockets, which lay atop a white clay "false bedrock" paid off very well.

This is very interesting.....I spent one summer under one of those domes. I found the gold was like you said except that our clay was blue. I guess where you are located and when the ash was put down determines the color of the clay. A friend had a book on the Tertiary Gravels of Northern California that was written in 1912 and anytime I located something new to me I would read the book. What was amazing was the fact that the newer books all refered to this old book. ....Art

Thanks guys!  It will be a while before we can make a return trip to the mine, as it is a bit of a drive and I have a few "projects" that I have to do here, plus we can NOT ever just go there and spend a week or two, we always end up staying for months so have to plan accordingly.  You know how that danged gold can keep your attention honed!

The size of those pockets varies a great deal - from not much bigger than a pie plate and three inches thick to the largest we found which was over twelve feet across, but only about a foot thick.  A neighboring mine hit a real "glory hole" that was nearly nine feet tall and more than twenty feet across, (a "hole" in the white clay false bedrock) which allowed our neighbor to retire - and of course he refuses to quit mining!     It will be an interesting experiment to try and could be a real labor saver.

Those old tertiary channels are pretty interesting - some seem to run in perpendicular directions to "modern" stream channels; at our mine, just a couple hundred feet away is a "modern" channel, which has virtually NO gold.  I always thought that was strange.

Oroblanco

Hey oroblanco...Not only interesting but amazing. The history of the Sierra Nevada's is that the mountains wore down and spread the gold in all the rivers. Then the Mountains were lifted up on the east side (the faults can still be seen in some areas) and the water started to flow in a different direction. Many of the old rivers are now on the mountain sides. As the new rivers created new channels they cut into some of the old rivers and started to spread the gold. Some of these old channels are now covered with Lava flows. Some of these old channels are springs now. I worked one old channel. The gold was there but so were the regulations....Art

[don't]

We have had very good "luck" in getting approval from the BLM, I think because we use some "key terms" that don't get the protectionists excited - like

"working underground"
"in existing tunnels"
"tailings (gravel and sand) used to level and repair road access"

so that we never got a refusal on notice of intent or plan of operations - though we did have plenty of problems with state park rangers after the Desert Protection Act got passed.  They literally tried to keep us out with locked gates, threatened to fine us if we turned over a single stone on our mine, actually stole our cabin with everything inside it while we were in town etc.  Lovely people they were, sure hope they get a similar treatment some day.

Oroblanco

Anyone interested in a Tungsten Magnetic Dipping Needle by W.S. Darley & Co. with original instructions and the original Hard Leather Case.Looks like its an antique by looking at the age of the instruction sheet.Which has no rips.There is no date anywhere,on the sheet or the tool itself.I will take pics if requested. Email me at rickyspencer@gmail.com with dipping needle in the subject field or call 440 382 6912.I am located just east of Cleveland Ohio.  last offer was $100.00 USD>as of 01/05/09

In the past I searched for Spanish Deep Needles and for Miner's Compass,
and the only pics I found are below,

Digman

Mike - (HOLA amigo!) by any chance have you ever used one?  Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Oroblanco

Thanks Mike - I have been curious about these devices for some time but have never even seen one in person.  The one being offered for sale sounds reasonable enough, if finances were not so tight I would be very tempted to just buy it and find out how well it works (if they work at all). 
Roy

Hi Art! 

I found a place that sells them now, but they want $3000 for one!  (Yikes!  )  Seems like a lot for a strange type of compass, hope I can find one for less than that.  Here is the place that is selling them for $3000:
http://www.thortech.org/thortech/en/spanish.dip.needle4.html

That idea of iron + gold makes sense; in many of the places we have prospected over the years there were black sands which could be removed by a magnet (and hence likely iron).  It was true in a case where we found a very good gold placer in Alaska years ago north of Nome - the black sands were quite thick, and in assay it proved to be very high in iron; (I was hoping for it to be tin - you know one type of black sand is actually a tin ore, another is a type of tungsten - also worth $$$) so if it would help to locate thick lenses of black sands it would be helpful to ME.  Sure hate to come up with that much dough, will keep on looking for a less-expensive source.

Oroblanco

Hi Oroblanco,

I agree with you.  I've found black sands, hematite and magnetite, with very fine gold on the beaches west of Nome (Cripple River).  In fact, I've always found these iron sands with placer gold.  FYI, the Cornwall Mine in PA, not far from where I was raised, provided enough gold in the iron ore they were selling to the steel mills to pay all operating costs for the mine.

But using a "miner's needle" from an aircraft (mentioned in an earlier post) seems a stretch to me.  That South American site must have had an enormous deposit of iron and gold.

Bill

Dear alaskabill;
I feel that the early Spanish prospectors in So. America used a form of compass in order to try and locate magnetic ores, such as lode stone (magnetite) and not low magnetic iron, per se. In many parts of So. America, lode stones, those being naturally magnetized ferrous alloys, are often times located within the presence of nickel/iron deposits. Once the lode stone deposit was located, the prospectors would then concentrate their efforts on trying to locate a gold deposit in the same vicinity. There exists documentation of these devices and in actual practice they did not seem to be very successful, however the theory itself was sound.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I feel that the early Spanish prospectors in So. America used a form of compass in order to try and locate magnetic ores, such as lode stone (magnetite) and not low magnetic iron, per se. In many parts of So. America, lode stones, those being naturally magnetized ferrous alloys, are often times located within the presence of nickel/iron deposits. Once the lode stone deposit was located, the prospectors would then concentrate their efforts on trying to locate a gold deposit in the same vicinity. There exists documentation of these devices and in actual practice they did not seem to be very successful, however the theory itself was sound.

Hi lamar,

That certainly makes sense.  In placer deposits, the heavier black (magnetite) sands are often found with the heavy gold particles.  In fact, I use my metal detector which has a "black sand" mode on gravel bars.  If I get a good signal, I dig and pan out the material.  I always find black sand but not much gold as of yet.  I guess a modern metal detector has become today's "miner's compass".

Bill

I have a "Aquameter" and took it to Placerita Canyon-once a very rich gold area near Los Angeles.  You have to have it oriented for it to work but there was so much black sand I was unable to do that.

I have had success in the past by using a $8 Brunton water filled compass out at another prosperous gold field in the N.W. Mojave Desert and located some excellent pay gravel with it.  It's a very forgiving compass as it doesn't have to be oriented like the Aquameter or my two magnetic Dip Needle compasses.

Randy

I have had success in the past by using a $8 Brunton water filled compass out at another prosperous gold field in the N.W. Mojave Desert and located some excellent pay gravel with it.  It's a very forgiving compass as it doesn't have to be oriented like the Aquameter or my two magnetic Dip Needle compasses.

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the tip.  In a place like the Super Wilderness Area, the liquid filled compass would be a handy and "legal" tool to have along.  I didn't know that a simple compass could be that useful to detect paydirt.  I guess it depends on the amount of magnetite that is present.  I always carry a compass with me and will try it next time out.

Bill

Good afternoon Beth / oro:  We have the Aqua meter in our arsenal.
 It is Factory  #364130,  USBLM  # 46329 and is here in Mexico.  Want me to send it to you In Jan to practice with ? You have to align it with Mag North for each pass.e

 Will be useful for you to find that iron door of one of the Tayopa mines.  The one where my former assoc  had the heart attack.  It has been seen by two different people, but --.  The x assoc was one of them. He had made many trips down there trying to relocate it. The data that we received from the Guayajiro Indian gal checked exactly with his story and sparked his going on the fatal trip, depite my telling him "no way"..

When  he first saw it, he tried to break the huge padalock with a rock, but couldn't.  Before he could go back down, the rains came and when he could flinally go back down th country had changed.   The door was over half buried when he first saw it.
Don Jose de la Mancha

I remember that Fred Stewart in Tennessee used to sell what he called a Spanish Dip Needle.
Rich

Oroblanco and Art. get a grip on yourselves. If you dowse at the right time and know the elementary rules associated with dowsing, just about anything will do. When TV first came out in the 60s I made an antenna with half inch gal water pipe and it worked fine.
Art, I have taught you more than you realise, just have patience.  Max

Hey Max, I'm very interested in your statements on dowsing times. I do know from studying the works of Abbé Mermet that there were times, he noted, that he could not get a dowsing response. Someone on this website has kindly soft-printed it for me. And us. http://www.dowsers.info/toronto/mar2005.htm Do you believe that the era in which he dowsed, say 1900-1930's was a good time for dowsing with regards to your solar data or is there any way of knowing whether that period was definitely a good time or bad time to dowse.

I am genuinely interested in resolving how best to use my dowsing time; i.e. research or map / field work.

Hi Art! 

I found a place that sells them now, but they want $3000 for one!  (Yikes!  )  Seems like a lot for a strange type of compass, hope I can find one for less than that.  Here is the place that is selling them for $3000:
http://www.thortech.org/thortech/en/spanish.dip.needle4.html

That idea of iron + gold makes sense; in many of the places we have prospected over the years there were black sands which could be removed by a magnet (and hence likely iron).  It was true in a case where we found a very good gold placer in Alaska years ago north of Nome - the black sands were quite thick, and in assay it proved to be very high in iron; (I was hoping for it to be tin - you know one type of black sand is actually a tin ore, another is a type of tungsten - also worth $$$) so if it would help to locate thick lenses of black sands it would be helpful to ME.  Sure hate to come up with that much dough, will keep on looking for a less-expensive source.

Oroblanco

Convince Carl to buy one and 'test' it. Then buy it from him for €5 when he can't 'make' it work.......

Real De Tayopa,

I would love to try this machine on a couple of our projects here.  If what we are looking for is found with it I'll send you something.

Regards
Minetres

Good afternoon Minetres / Gregory:  Where are you? You list a military address.

Oro has first choice, since I did offer it to him first. but he hasn't responded so far.

If I were to send it to you, there would be only one condition, that you return it in the same condition that I sent it.  I will want to try it up at Tayopa later this year to see if it will indicate that iron door.

As for a share in anything that you find with it, forget it, there are no strings attached, it's all your's, you will have earned it.  Just gimme me back my toy.  heheh.

"Good Luck"my friend and get rich..

Don Jose de La Mancha

Been enjoying all of the contributions here on this thread, from all. Wish all the threads could be this exploratory and collaborative.

Just won the bidding on an old one of these Aqua Locators. $40. Looks to be a bargain when compared against new.

I think its calibrated for Minnesota so that's about as North as it gets in the USA. Should help to give it better accuracy for me in Ireland.

Real de Tayopa, have you loaned it to people in other jurisdictions where they have retrieved successfully? I'm interested in how calibrated it needs to be, if you're way off course for where it was originally commissioned.

Any thoughts anyone?

1933 patent

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1947809.pdf

has pic's & full explanation Carl could build his own

Been enjoying all of the contributions here on this thread, from all. Wish all the threads could be this exploratory and collaborative.

Just won the bidding on an old one of these Aqua Locators. $40. Looks to be a bargain when compared against new.

I think its calibrated for Minnesota so that's about as North as it gets in the USA. Should help to give it better accuracy for me in Ireland.

Real de Tayopa, have you loaned it to people in other jurisdictions where they have retrieved successfully? I'm interested in how calibrated it needs to be, if you're way off course for where it was originally commissioned.

Any thoughts anyone?

Well, I just took delivery of my antique Aqua Locator, shipped from Minnesota. In great condition. Some wear to the strap, but hey, its old ! I got some wear myself and I'm only half its age 

Looking forward to any hints, tips, tricks, techniques and stories that any of you have regarding the acceptable and outer anecdotal limits of this device (not the aeroplane one though from Angel Falls Terrestrial anecdotes will do me fine).

Serial # 970452. I must check to see when that was made and for what jurisdiction it was calibrated for.

Good morning RI:  No, I have never loaned it to another.  As for any adjustment, mine has no data on that, or need for it, any more than an ordinary compass does except for declination to find true north.

The exception on a normal ocmpass is that as you go increasingly towards the poles, it tends to dip, losing it´s freedom of movement due to friction with it´s vertical pivot bearings.

In the case of this instrument, it has it´s pivots horisontally aligned, so it really makes no difference.  I see no need for any adjustment except to keep it aligned with Mag north on all of your passes which can be from any direction.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ri, if you're using it to look for magnetic anomalies then calibration is probably not necessary. You want to find magnetic deltas (distortions), not absolute field strengths. Also, latitude cannot be used to judge Earth field strength, it varies considerably all over.

Evening  Carl :  correct.   anomalies are the name of the game.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Ri, if you're using it to look for magnetic anomalies then calibration is probably not necessary. You want to find magnetic deltas (distortions), not absolute field strengths. Also, latitude cannot be used to judge Earth field strength, it varies considerably all over.

Thanks Carl, appreciate the info and also starting to read up more about laptop-connected magnetometers, as you referred to earlier. But will try this baby for now. Its very discreet and well weighted too.

Good morning RI:  No, I have never loaned it to another.  As for any adjustment, mine has no data on that, or need for it, any more than an ordinary compass does except for declination to find true north.

The exception on a normal ocmpass is that as you go increasingly towards the poles, it tends to dip, losing it´s freedom of movement due to friction with it´s vertical pivot bearings.

In the case of this instrument, it has it´s pivots horisontally aligned, so it really makes no difference.  I see no need for any adjustment except to keep it aligned with Mag north on all of your passes which can be from any direction.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thanks Real, I just wanted to be sure. Gives me confidence in the instrument. Some of the highwaymen in Ireland used to bury their 'taxes'  in metal pots. There's a lot of research and a lot of anecdotal evidence as to where some of those sites might be. Its been a research project of mine for 18 months now. A list of the likely lads is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highwayman#Irish_highwaymen with plenty of good research of a quantitative and qualitative nature coming from http://www.amazon.com/Stand-Deliver...ries-Irish-Highwaymen/dp/1856350363 and most impressively http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Highwaymen-Stephen-Dunford/dp/1903582024. Believe it or not, I have had two caches map dowsed from the ol US of A, by Art, describing exactly the way in which history describes they have been buried (and certain key signs), and neither caches' pertinent info would have been in any way readily available to that source. The terrain is tough though, in some cases, despite Ireland being a small place. Our bogs and mountains (and mountain bogs) are still fit to kill you if you're unprepared and foolhardy!

Back to the thread, I look forward to using the locator for searching and scoping out anomalies. We have an amazing geology in Ireland. Quite a mix. Plenty of gold, some iron, some coal, etc etc. A very varied landscape. The country was formed by two ancient continents colliding then separating IIRC. For years, we thought we had no gold. Now, it turns out its everywhere. And not just in the ore. Here's a gold rush I bet you never heard of! It 'may' have been where the young river uncovered an ancient stream bed. The source of the placer gold has still NOT been located (by the owners, that is). http://www.mineralsireland.ie/Mining+in+Ireland/Historic+Mining.htm
"The late 18th century also witnessed a local gold rush in Co. Wicklow. For six weeks in 1795, some 80kg of alluvial gold is estimated to have been recovered from what subsequently became known as the Gold Mines River. Following State intervention and dispersal of the gold diggers, mining was subsequently carried out by the Government (1796-1803), by the local populace (1804-39), and by a private company (1860). The total amount of gold recovered is calculated at some 300kg, although the true figure may be much higher." 

good afternoon RI:  Being of predominently Irish Extraction, I am interested in your data - more. I have patiently been waiting for posts from you and Oro.   Has ORO had any chance to try the  aqua meter yet, or is he now located in Rio De Janeiro basking in the sun ogling the bikinis when Beth isn't around?

Don Jose de La mancha

good afternoon RI:  Being of predominently Irish Extraction, I am interested in your data - more. I have patiently been waiting for posts from you and Oro.   Has ORO had any chance to try the  aqua meter yet, or is he now located in Rio De Janeiro basking in the sun ogling the bikinis when Beth isn't around?

Don Jose de La mancha

I hit gold in February and we're both on the beach right now, swapping treasure stories and drinking vodka martinis for breakfast.......

Actually no! The weather's been awful for Thunting or prospecting here. Would you believe, in wet misty old Ireland, we had 1-2" of snow yesterday, last day of March. And up in Elgin in Scotland, east of Inverness but on the coast, they had 4" of the stuff. Is God gone on holiday or on strike? What's up with the weather??

Hope to report back on the Aqua Locator shortly.

Interesting that you refer to me as Rí. Your Irish blood is coming through in spades :-D An Rí Rua means The King (Red). i.e. the red king. alias Ruairí. So you could have picked 'the' or 'red' but you picked King. And that was without notcing the gold and diamonds that adorn my persona. I'm like BA (Bosco Albert) Baracus with all of this fine jewellery :-D. Incidentally, if BA had come out white, he'd be called Bosco or Bertie, not BA. He'd be a big rough ape of a Paddy but not cool like BA. Like, does PJ sound cool like BA? Enough said :-D

When I get to the site of the Wicklow gold rush, I will report back more. Art has pointed me (map dowsed) to two locations of surfacing veins and, according to the topography of that area, I think he's bang on.

Hey Ruairi….When you get to the site of the Wicklow gold rush I wish you good luck. There is a lot of gold to be found by the lucky man who gets there first…Art

Hey Ruairi….When you get to the site of the Wicklow gold rush I wish you good luck. There is a lot of gold to be found by the lucky man who gets there first…Art

Hey Art, good to hear from ya. I've been off Tnet for a few weeks but will be back regularly shortly. Chat with you more via mail shortly.

And I'll send on your gold when I dig it.

Hey rockhound…I to have saw some drawings of some type of rod that was called a Spanish Dip Needle..There were four rods to a set. The tools were made of flat iron with a notch on each one. Two people were required to use them. When the rods turned and the notches matched it was where the gold was. I think I remember who had the drawings so I will try to contact him and see if I can get them…Art

Hey rockhound..This is all I could get..
Hi Art:
 
Yes, I was quite surprised when I ran across these a few years ago, going through a bunch of stuff in my shed.  Surprised mainly because it was back in the 1940's when this guy came to visit dad with a set he had made.  Afterwards I remember dad saying that he was going to make a set out of copper tubing and the coat the ends of the "forks" with Mercury.
 
I remember these as being maybe 7" or 8" long (maybe even shorter).  Dad flattened the ends of the copper tubing and then probably used a file to make a simple "u" in the ends of these four tubes.  Dad's reasoning was that Mercury attracts gold.
 
The trick was to balance these in your hands, opposite a partner with the u notches mating with your partner's.  You held them loosely and sort of moved around in a circle.  The theory being that any target would attract the needles to point in that direction.
 
The theory was also that the needles would criss-cross if you were over a target.
 
As I write this, why don’t you try coating the ends of some welding rods with Mercury?  Dad held his "witness" in his left hand and the welding rod upright in his right hand.  If a guy is left-handed I suppose the reverse would be the best way to go?
 
I used to see dad hold a variety of rocks and petrified wood too, (if I remember right) and these rods would really whip back n forth.  At the time I thought it mighty strange as the source of some of these "witnesses" would be miles away!!
 
The most "factual" story I can give you is dad borrowing a rock / ore sample from the barbershop he went to in Wenatchee.  Dad had a hunch the sample came from somewhere between Wenatchee and Blewett Pass.  So he drove towards Blewett Pass and stopped every few miles to see what the welding rod would do.  It kept whipping behind the town of Cashmere.
 
Dad drove as far as Ingalls Creek at the foot of the Pass and by this time the rod was pointing almost due east.  So his "readings" had consistently pointed behind Cashmere in this semi-circle he had made. 
 
Dad said the guy wasn't very happy that the barber let dad borrow his sample rock but admitted the rock DID come from behind Cashmere.
 
As I think you have an excellent "touch" with things like this, why don't you give the welding rods a try and let me know how it goes? As far as I know the welding rods dad used were just run-of-the-mill stock ones, maybe 1/16" or 1/8" or both?
 
Hope this helps a little.