Superstition mine question?

 Can anyone tell me the known origin & history of these mines?

HI:I am curious also.

Don Jose de La Mancha 

HI:I am curious also.

Don Jose de La Mancha 

"Tusayan"....got any clue what's its real translation is? I'm stumped?

i dont remember the red X , but the other 4 mines i have seen related to spainish mines . i forget where off hand but . i beleive ether killer mt.s or when researching the massacre site . sorry i cant help more ....but do remember the order and there was 4 mines .. in fact i beleive curt gentery talks about other spanish mines in the latter part of that book . i beleive thats where i remember them from ...i dont remember anything abiout that red X location thats new to me ...

HI TJ, working on it, I have never heard it before nor have any of my Mexican friends here.

Are you sure that it is one word? tusa referrs to  a mother in law or things similar  to the south.

Don Jose de La Mancha

The question on "Tusayan" and the meaning of it's name, is probably something which will never find an answer carved in stone.

Bandelier says it comes "from the Zuni name Usaya-kue, or people of Usaya."  It has also been suggested by some, that "Tusayan is corrupt Nahuatl, from tochli, rabbit; an, place of, "Rabbit place".

It was the Spanish name for "Hopi-Land".

Good luck with this little historical treasure hunt.

I believe the "red +" is used by the computer program to center mark the map.  It is not part of the actual map and is computer generated.

Joe Ribaudo

i know what it means , its much like the word . Tayyyopa

Tusayan was the indiginous name used by the Hopi to describe their domain when the Europeans arrived in the American Southwest in 1540.  Later, the invaders called them Moqui, a word from the Navajo or Zunis meaning 'dead'.

The interesting aspect of the map is "Terrapin Pass".  Why is it called that?

Tusayan was the indiginous name used by the Hopi to describe their domain when the Europeans arrived in the American Southwest in 1540.  Later, the invaders called them Moqui, a word from the Navajo or Zunis meaning 'dead'.

The interesting aspect of the map is "Terrapin Pass".  Why is it called that?

You are correct, I just found this:

"Yusayan" was used to describe the location of Moqui villages. (Fray Juan de Padilla during the Coronado expedition, 1540.) 

"Teguayo" was first used by Pedro de Tovar, 1540, during the Coronado expedition, when he reported of the rich Indian lands near Salt Lake. 

"Terrapin Pass" was already known and is just as it states, the very reason for my posting of the map, (the red "X" is a program marker.)

   Assume for a moment that the legend of Jacob Waltz is accurate in its claim that he simply, “picked up his ore” and that “no miner will ever find my mine.” Could be he didn’t have a mine, but rather he had a cache of sorts?

   Going back to pack train days, (Try this on Google earth) now draw yourself a route of travel from “Tumacacori” (or present day Tucson) to Tortilla Flat and the Gila River, and perhaps beyond. In doing so it is very possible that your selected route of travel would have taken you right past Weaver’s Needle and the location of the presented mines. Now let’s say you did follow this route north and that you did in fact find gold ore near the Gila or beyond. The stone was then likewise crushed and the ore separated and eventually loaded into packs for the long journey back to the sea ports in Mexico. But at some point during this journey back there was an event that took place that caused you to cache or abandon all, or part of, your loads. I don’t believe there ever was a Lost Dutchman’s “Mine.” But rather I believe his ore came from an abandoned Spanish pack train, which given the scenario above, could further explain its high content? This would also explain Waltz quick trips to and from and his “picking up” of his ore, as well as, “no miner will ever find my mine,” because there is no “mine.”  What is most interesting is the tag, "Terrapin Pass" as from what I have researched so far it was infact a known & used pass during an earlier era. An event of such magnitude, just as I am suggesting, did take place in the Superstitions, but the real $$$ question might be, "where exactly, were they returning from?" I'm still working on that little mystery.......   


 

Terrapin was a term applied to old timers in the Southwest.  Desert Tortoise........Old age?

It was also an important part of Southwestern Native American myths and tales.

Probably could take your pick here.

Joe

A terrapin is a turtle.  A turtle has traditionally associated with a nearby treasure.  It would be interesting to research the origin of the place name on this quad sheet, i.e., who named it and when.

Can anyone tell me the known origin & history of these mines?
 
 

Good question.  Of all the other “known” diggings in the Black Top Mesa and Bluff Spring Mountain area, why are these the only ones the USGS decided to indicate on their topo series? 

The USGS printed this map (the Weaver’s Needle quadrangle topo) after having knowledge of these mining activities.  If I remember correctly, the published USGS Map Key, a separate publication, indicates that an “x” is used to depict a “prospect” site and the “reverse arrow” symbol (head of the arrow placed at the rear) indicates an audit or tunnel site.  If we knew the date of publication of the map that was used to create this image, we could be certain that the mines were known by data available to the USGS and the mining activity occurred prior to the time of the map data record and publication.

USGS performs field surveys periodically and publishes updated maps as the older ones are revised.  I have a USGS, Florence Arizona quadrangle map that is dated 1900.  It is a “1 to 125,000 scale” map and does not have these mines indicated.  The map above looks to me like a more detailed map with a different scale than the 1/125,000 series of maps and therefore the mining sites were not included on my 1900 edition even though the sites might have been documented by USGS prior to 1900.

Probably the best source of the older USGS maps will be in local or regional museums and libraries.  While researching 18th century Indian settlements in Alabama, I found old charts in the state library and museum that identified the locations of these villages that were mentioned in old local history books.

If claims were filed for these prospects, the State of Arizona should have a database of where, when and by whom the claims were filed. 

Tom Kollenborn made notations on a USGS topo map (that appears to be of the same scale as the image above.  His notations indicate the location of several camps in the immediate area of these prospects on the slopes of Bluff Springs Mountain.  See pages 196, 197, of Helen Corbin’s book, The Bible on the Lost Dutchman’s Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz, 2002.  TK may have known more about their history and origins.  These old prospects could very well have been original Spanish or Mexican diggings from the 17th or 18th century and later re-discovered by early Arizona prospectors.  Or they were diggings by 20th century prospectors.

Since I wrote the discussion above, I found a copy of the USGS 1912 Arizona Mining Districts map.  It is a two-part chart and indicates NO known mining districts near Bluff Springs Mountain.  Not even the Goldfield District is indicated.  See charts at this link:

Chart 1 of 2.  http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?106&mak=1912_Arizona_mining_district

Chart 2 of 2.
http://menotomymaps.com/map_img.asp?p=map_fdbdown.asp?107&mak=1912_Arizona_mining_district

With this information, I am of the opinion that the USGS had no verifiable or documented mining activity on or near BSM before 1912 to update their maps for the area near Terrapin Pass.  Not even the Goldfield District was listed.  In might not have existed in 1912; I just don’t remember.  Those mine sites may have been known or accessed by folks that kept the locations to themselves and did not file any mining activity or claims.

I am going to try to get information directly from the USGS and see if I can find out when they first posted those BSM mining sites on the topo map.  It would be interesting to see if these sites were included on the first publication of the Weaver’s Needle quadrangle and what year it was published.

If I find additional information, I’ll post it here.

Bill

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill!    Thank you for posting!
Oroblanco

[WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill!]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET AlaskaBill!    Thank you for posting!
Oroblanco

Hi Mr. O...

Thanks for the welcome.

 I've been reading most of the posts under the LDM topic and this question has been stuck in my craw since I bought my Florence quadrangle map in 1961.  On one of my trecks up Needle Canyon, I met an old timer who had a camp near the bottom of the southeast slopes of Black Top Mesa.  I wish I could remember his name, but I do remember he was a school teacher, retired I believe.  He was prospecting a small tunnel cut back into the mountain.  I have no idea if it was his work or the work of an earlier miner.  I have also read about other diggings on the northeast side of BTM.  It seems strange that the USGS would mark on the Weaver's Needle quadrangle map only those sites at the base of Bluff Springs Mountain.

I'll post anything that USGS provides, but I'll bet some of you "sourdough" researchers probably have a better idea how far back these particular sites have been known by local folks.

Biill

[Superstition Mountains Wilderness Study Area]

Bill - I am not even sure those are actually "mines" in Needle canyon.  USGS marks mines not based on a list of registered claims but by aerial photographs, and as you know there are quite a few "prospect tunnels" and shafts dug by people searching for the Lost Dutchman, often dug in some spot that seems to fit their set of "clues" but without even a trace of any precious metals.  That is not to say there are no gold mines in the Superstitions, (there are a few) but I can't recall any in that particular canyon.

Goldfield mines were discovered not long after Jacob Waltz died, in the early 1890's, I don't think it was a separate district prior to that.  There is a USGS publication which would have a detailed history of all the known mines, we have a copy but can't get at it - it was the Superstition Mountains Wilderness Study Area or something similar to that title, and may be online free at the USGS site or a paper copy for a fee.  I think it would identify those mines if they are indeed mines.

I look forward to reading more from you amigo, your posts are excellent! 
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Oroblanco

The USGS updated a number of quad sheets in New Mexico (probably Arizona and other states too) in 1992.  I became pretty good friends with a fellow who was in charge of the work in SW New Mexico.  He field-checked a very large number of surface features that appeared on the existing quads, such as benchmarks, roads, trails, mine shafts, tunnels, bridges, buildings, camps, archaeological sites, etc., and added some newer features that were created since the issuance of the current maps (new benchmaks, section corners, stock tanks, roads, buildings, landing strips, etc.).  He told me that it was his responsibility to recommend the deletion of many of the older 'historical' features from the new quads to 'protect them' from the public.  When I examined the first set of new provisional quads a couple years later, boy was he right!  Lots of interesting destinations for the curious simply disappeared from the record, even a number of 'suggestive' place names.  Bottom line: obtain the oldest set of quad sheets you can lay your hands on.

There is this report by J.E. Jinks:

http://www.admmr.state.az.us/DigitalLibrary/USBM_MLA/USBM_MLA_136-82.pdf

Joe

I checked the USGS Mineral Lands Assessment study (link provided by Cactusjumper above) and those "mines" are located on their map, even circled in fact.  However according to their statements, the samples they tested which showed any trace of gold, silver etc are all listed, and in their words all the other "mines" prospects, diggings etc were "BARREN" so I would think these "mines" were likely tested or at least examined (why else circle them) and they saw nothing worth testing.

The 1982 report also mentioned that "hundreds" of such "mines" prospect pits, tunnels, shafts etc have been dug over the years, very often where no mineralization occurs.

If I should happen to be in the Superstitions in the future I may have to go investigate these "mines" - not that I think they are the LOST DUTCHMAN but just curious about them. 
Oroblanco

Curiosity killed the cat is a proverb used to warn against being too curious lest one come to harm. A less frequent rejoinder to 'curiosity killed the cat' is 'satisfaction brought it back'

Santa,

[Curiosity killed the cat is a proverb used to warn against being too curious lest one come to harm. A less frequent rejoinder to 'curiosity killed the cat' is 'satisfaction brought it back']

How careless of me to leave out El Gato!

Joe Ribaudo

Also check out
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/ofr/ofr83885
<Mineral resource potential of the Superstition Wilderness and contiguous roadless areas, Maricopa, Pinal, and Gila Counties, Arizona, Open-File Report 83-885, 1983>

Alaska Bill wrote;

USGS performs field surveys periodically and publishes updated maps as the older ones are revised.  I have a USGS, Florence Arizona quadrangle map that is dated 1900.  It is a “1 to 125,000 scale” map and does not have these mines indicated.  The map above looks to me like a more detailed map with a different scale than the 1/125,000 series of maps and therefore the mining sites were not included on my 1900 edition even though the sites might have been documented by USGS prior to 1900.

Hi Alaska Bill,

The 1900 topo you are referring to was designed to be used with the "Peralta Stone Maps". The stone house is depicted on the map, but the coke ovens are not. There is a reason for this discrepancy. Any other nonessential information was not used as this particular map was designed as a base depository area. If one were to order the 1900 Florence topo you have mentioned they would receive the 1901 revision. The original 1900 has some design flaws that were designed into it on purpose. The 1901 map was a corrected version. There are four other maps that must be used to help interpret the Stone Maps as we found out the hard way. After all was said and done we realized you had to follow the Stone Maps directions and study the hearts and study the maps to solve the puzzle. After all of these years we learned to follow the clues laid out on the ground depicted by the Stone Maps(and I mean years). You have to be very careful as the maps were made to take you on a wild goose chase. Once you have located the area to use the maps they will make perfect sense. Now you can start counting the years. The actual directions to the caches have to be solved in the field by relying on the large shadow monuments. These clues can only be observed twice a year. As I said in another post; you must document your work or it is all in vain.

I use to live in Alaska and I finally decided it was a nice place to visit and I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito.

Loved the Northern Lights and the bush,

EB

[I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito]

Ellie Baba wrote

I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito

ROFL 

Ellie,

I assume you are speaking of the crocosquito.  It has the head of a crocodile and the body of a mosquito.  
In addition to that horrifying apparition, they are the fastest things on earth.  While you could never outrun them,
it was advised that you run just as fast as you can if one ever comes after you.  Even with knowing you couldn't get
away from them, it was considered a good idea to get as close to a hospital as possible before they caught you.

Take care,

Joe

[I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito]

Ellie Baba wrote

I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito

ROFL 

Don't forget the white socks, the constant depressing darkness of winter and the -80° wind chills.  King Salmon, AK 1985.  No thankee.

There is this report by J.E. Jinks:

http://www.admmr.state.az.us/DigitalLibrary/USBM_MLA/USBM_MLA_136-82.pdf

Joe

Hi Joe,

I think you found the pub that Oroblanco referred.  Thanks a bunch.  Bill

Bill,

I've had that report for a number of years now.  Started out with one of my friends sending me a hard copy, and found the report on the Internet by chance.

Take care,

Joe

The 1900 topo you are referring to was designed to be used with the "Peralta Stone Maps". The stone house is depicted on the map, but the coke ovens are not. There is a reason for this discrepancy. Any other nonessential information was not used as this particular map was designed as a base depository area. If one were to order the 1900 Florence topo you have mentioned they would receive the 1901 revision. The original 1900 has some design flaws that were designed into it on purpose. The 1901 map was a corrected version. There are four other maps that must be used to help interpret the Stone Maps as we found out the hard way. After all was said and done we realized you had to follow the Stone Maps directions and study the hearts and study the maps to solve the puzzle. After all of these years we learned to follow the clues laid out on the ground depicted by the Stone Maps(and I mean years). You have to be very careful as the maps were made to take you on a wild goose chase. Once you have located the area to use the maps they will make perfect sense. Now you can start counting the years. The actual directions to the caches have to be solved in the field by relying on the large shadow monuments. These clues can only be observed twice a year. As I said in another post; you must document your work or it is all in vain.

I use to live in Alaska and I finally decided it was a nice place to visit and I hated the Alaskan State Bird, the mosquito.

Loved the Northern Lights and the bush,

EB

Hi Ellie Baba,

Thanks for the comments.  I have not done much analysis of the Stone Maps, but have read several books about them and various interpretations.  Interesting reading, but I have found no one or a published source that logically explains how to decipher the symbols and leads to a mine or treasure.  Are we sure they are not forgeries and if not, are we sure they lead us to mines or treasure of some kind?  Amy Mosier in her book Treasure Maps of the Superstitions published in 2002 claims that a mentor she calls "the Tin Man" explained to her how to interpret the Stone Maps but does not tell us the details, only bits and pieces to keep the reader engaged.  Her book has lots of symbols and photos, but not enough explanation and analysis to suit me.  She does discuss a book by Charles A. Kenworthy and includes a copy of what she claims is a copy of Kenworthy's mining claims in LaBarge Canyon:  Quo Vadis I through VII.  I comment on Kenworthy's book in the next paragraph and have to wonder why Kenworthy did not include that mineral claim information in his own book published in 1997.

One of the most interesting books I have read recently was not about the Stone Maps.  Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman  by Charles A. Kenworthy, 1997 included verifiable evidence of his success and conclusions, although some of his analysis is still unconvincing to me mainly because I have no first hand knowledge of Spanish/Mexican/Jesuit or other protocols for making maps, using symbols, and their interpretations.  Nevertheless, there is some logic in his methods that I can accept.  He provides the locations of key terrain features and the actual location of the LDM (his opinion, no verifiable proof) according to the known clues we all have read about.  My trip in 2007 was an effort to verify some of Kenworthy's observations and findings by doing an on site survey.  I attempted to contact Kenworthy through his publisher a few years ago and was saddened to hear that he had passed away.  If any of the Forum members have read this Kenworthy book, I would be interested in your comments.  I'll start a new thread on this book and see if I get any responses.

I sure appreciate the several postings about Alaska - The Great Land.  Yep, it gets cold, dark for a while, the bears are BIG, and the mosquitoes are like incoming missiles at times.  But we do not have poison ivy, snakes, scorpions, or poisonous spiders.  I guess every place has a trade off.  We love it here.  Fishing, trips to the Bush, the Iditarod, and Northern Lights are just a few of the attractions.  So far this Fall, we have had no snow and temps have been around 35 F during the day.  Sounds better than many places in "the Lower 48" to me.   

There I go again.  Sorry for the rambling...

Bill

HIO BILL:  You posted -->

'we do not have poison ivy, snakes, scorpions, or poisonous spiders'
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Unfortunately you DO have Alaskans though !      he hehehe


Nope,  not really sorry, since many, many of my friends are native born Alaskans and have a good sense of humor.. And I am an Arizonian.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Welcome, Alaska Bill,


At least the Alaskan mosquitoes cannot spread disease.  They are of a variety that only one sex bites, and then she does her procreation thing and dies.  An Alaskan mosquito only bites one time.

Again, welcome!

B

Oh, by the way, there is a town in Arizona called Tusayan - it is about 5 miles from the Grand Canyon National Park.


http://www.tusayan-az.worldweb.com/



B

Oh, by the way, there is a town in Arizona called Tusayan - it is about 5 miles from the Grand Canyon National Park.

It is strictly a tourist trap with no history of its own.  They chose the name because it sounded 'Indian' and 'authentic'.